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To: Once-Ler
Patriotism takes only one generation and often times less.

I'll agree with that statement if there is a reasonable filtering process to separate the wheat from the chaff. I don't know how much you've seen of illegal immigration and illegal immigrants, but I've seen plenty. Mrs. Vigilanteman, you see, is from southern California and I lived there awhile myself. The sad truth of the matter is that for every immigrant such as my friend Richardo, there are at least 10 which have nothing more in mind than exploiting the system. Ricardo was born in the U.S., his family came here illegally in the late 1950's when there was still a trickle, not a flood. They worked, they earned citizenship, they encouraged their children to become Americanized and they set the example where possible. Ricardo understands, but doesn't speak much Spanish. His mother became the manager of a department store where my wife worked and spoke with only a hint of an accent.

While I agree with your statement that legal immigration should be easier (and I think of people like Ricardo's family), it cannot be done without cracking down on illegal immigratation. I've spent half my adult life living in Japan and know more than a few legal immigrants who feel like chumps because they took the time and trouble to come here legally only to find so many people like you and like our government, make little or no effort to distinguish between the legal and illegal variety.

Unlike some of the paleos, I also feel that military service (demonstrated loyalty to the U.S.) should be a path to legal citizenship but for the immediate family-- spouse and minor children-- not for multi-generations of shirt-tail relatives. In today's world of relatively cheap air travel (and cheaper travel to Mexico), family reunification should not be used as a catch-all reason to jump the politically-protected to the front of the line. Our idiotic immigration policy needs to pick and choose among would-be immigrants who will contribute to the fabric of this nation and not just those who will milk it. A sensible debate is needed somewhere between the point of "zero" and "open borders." Switzerland (with a 20% foreign workforce) and Singapore (with a more stringent policy) both have multi-ethnic societies and a sensible immigration policy. We do not and, by failing to do so, risk further Balkanization.

180 posted on 08/21/2004 2:53:08 AM PDT by Vigilanteman (crime would drop like a sprung trapdoor if we brought back good old-fashioned hangings)
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To: Vigilanteman
A sensible debate is needed somewhere between the point of "zero" and "open borders."

I agree. I'm sure I will fall closer to the open border side than most Republicans.

There is another debate that has not gotten much attention on this thread and that is how do we find and deport 10 million illegan immigrants and secure the border. I don't believe America has the technology and the resources to do this at this time. The actual cost of removing 10 million illegals and the damage to our economy, would far outweigh any savings in government spending. If every illegal was gone tomorrow the school systems would still be a liberal indoctrination center, Health-care would still be sky high and Social Security would be bankrupt since fewer workers would be paying for the elderly (the richest segment of our society) to retire.

The Bush administration has been trying to tackle this problem with a combination of more "search and deport," trying to get more illegals into the sytem by easing restrictions and raising the number of work visas, and helping Mexico stabilize it's economy with free trade. This is the approach I would take.

http://www.whitehouse.gov/infocus/immigration/20020105thm.html

President George W Bush: Right. A couple of things. First, short-term, is to make sure that the INS functions; that the INS is able to expedite the paperwork for people who are legitimately here in the country, and expedite the paperwork necessary for families to reunite. If you believe in family values, you've got to have families together, it seems like to me. And yet, we're too bureaucratic when it comes to the INS, and we need to streamline it and make it work. (Applause.)

Secondly, we've got to understand that in the past, at least, there have been people who were trying to hire people and people willing to work. And it makes sense to me to have a system that matches willing employer with willing employee.

Thirdly, the long-term solution is for Mexico to grow a middle class so that people don't feel like they have to come here to work. (Applause.) The long-term solution -- family values don't stop at the Rio Bravo. If there's somebody who has got children to feed, somebody, a mom or a dad who has got little ones to take care of, and they make fifty cents in a state in Mexico, or they could make $5 in America, they're going to come to America if they believe in their children, if they have the same values you and I have.

Values don't stop. And so, therefore, it seems like to me the best thing we can do is to have a strong relationship with Mexico, a free trading relationship with Mexico so that Mexico is more likely to grow a middle class, which means that person who is willing to walk miles across Texas desert to work to feed her children will be able to find work close to home.

That's why I said one of the most important foreign policy relations we have is with Mexico. The stronger Mexico is, the less pressure on our border; the stronger Mexico is, the more prosperity there will be in both our countries.

Thank you for a well written and thoughtful reply.

184 posted on 08/21/2004 12:20:21 PM PDT by Once-Ler (Proud Republican. and Bushbot.)
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To: Vigilanteman
I don't know how much you've seen of illegal immigration and illegal immigrants, but I've seen plenty.

I've seen a lot and from what I've seen they work hard, they are afraid to use hospitals or police for fear of being discovered and sent back. They pay taxes when they work and buy things. They have families and friends and they pray to God.

Like any people they have some bad elements. Some say a higher percent of illegals are involved with violent crime and drugs. This may be so but I find that to be a poor argument for condemning the other 9.5 million (or what ever the number is) whose only crime is crossing the border.

The sad truth of the matter is that for every immigrant such as my friend Richardo, there are at least 10 which have nothing more in mind than exploiting the system.

The system should not be exploited by illegals or citizens. If the welfare system lures illegals to the US...let us fix the welfare system instead of figuring out a way to put a barrier around the land of the free. Let's say we remove all 10 Million illegals tomorrow...we are ignoring the much greater costs of citizens using these same support systems.

I'm very sad to say it but, most people sucking at the teat of government are AMERICANS who get SS, unemployment, welfare, Medicare/Medicaid, grants, government home and business loans at ridiculous rates etcetera etcetera ad nuseum. I don’t want to argue the relative advantages or disadvantages of these programs. I’m just making a point. Pedro can’t speak English he isn’t asking for a government bailout of Chrysler.

The root problems America faces are not caused by illegal immigrants. Allowing immigrants to receive the same socialistic welfare traps that American citizens receive only exacerbates the symptoms of the socialism.

185 posted on 08/21/2004 12:41:58 PM PDT by Once-Ler (Proud Republican. and Bushbot.)
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