Posted on 08/19/2004 4:59:28 PM PDT by ketchikan
While researching Kerry's medal controversy found that the page(s) on his website re the document for his bronze star that was signed by Lehman (Secy of the Navy 81-87) is now blank.
On terpsboy.com found a link to KerryEdwards site for the Silver Star cerificate signed by John H. Hyland and then a SECOND certificate signed by Lehman. This link also shows a blank page on the KerryEdwards site.
Is this info still on KerryEdward site and I just can't find it?
Are those medals in Kerry's office the original? If so why anything signed by Lehman?
Brit Hume and Lt. Col. Bill Cowan were talking about this on FNC, and Cowan couldn't imagine why Kerry would have anything signed by Lehman.
I recall that some months ago, this was discussed on FR and some people suggested it was because Kerry lost his citations and needed to have them replaced, but Cowan said that had hapened to him, and what you get is a true copy of the original. Nothing new is signed.
There was a thread on it awhile back with the documentation. I saved the one signed by Lehman. It's undated. I don't have the rest of it.
I read somewhere that Kerry's silver star commendation was written or re-written many years later on the basis of the same "truths" Kerry is feeding us now, IE Kerry bravely charged an overwhelming force, blah blah. If the real report had been submitted, IE Kerry shot one fleeing man in the back after he was already wounded and disarmed, there would be no silver star.
Isn't that interesting. I remember the document, lots of us wondered why it was signed by Lehman. So now it's just disappaeared?
Brit was just talking to Cowen about the Lehman documents.
I'm glad I saved every document Kerry posted on his campaign site
the incredible shrinking website --sandy berger, joe wilson, medals, Christmas in Cambodia, et cetera
I hope there is more light shed on this in coming days.
IS this the links you are looking for
http://www.johnkerry.com/about/john_kerry/military_records.html
http://www.johnkerry.com/pdf/jkmilservice/Bronze_Star.pdf
http://www.johnkerry.com/pdf/jkmilservice/bronze_star_recommendation.pdf
Soon Kerry's website will be nothing but a blank screen. LOL
They're still there.
The Kerry campaign is like an exploding septic tank- befouling everyone who has ever come in contact with the war Heee Row.
Now Lehman is going to have to answer this sticky question.
The MSM refuses to understand that those up the chain of command relied on the paperwork submitted from below.
If the original paperwork was fraudulent
( anything by Kerry )
and no one picked it up at the time, those who signed the citations are not standing by Kerry-but,
standing by the paperwork they thought was truthful.
"For heroic achievement while serving with Coastal Division ELEVEN engaged in armed conflict with Viet Cong communist aggressors in An Xuyen Province, Republic of Vietnam on 13 March 1969. Lieutenant (junior grade) KERRY was serving as Officer-in-Charge of Inshore Patrol Craft 94, one of five boats conducting a SEA LORDS operation in the Bay Hap river. Whle exiting the river, a mine detonated under another Inshore Patrol Craft and almost simultaneously, another mine detonated close aboard his Inshore Patrol Craft knocking a man into the water and wounding Lieutenance (junior grade) KERRY in the right arm. In addition, all units began receiving small arms and automatic weapons fire from the river banks. Wen Lieutenant (junior grade) KERRY discovered he had a man overboard, he returned upriver to assist. The man in the water was receiving sniper fire from both banks. Lieutenant (junior grade) KERRY directed his gunner to provide suppressing fire, whle from an exposed position on the bow, his arm bleeding and in pain and with disregard for his personal safety, he pulled the man aboard. Lieutenant (junior grade) KERRY then directed his boat to return and assist the other damaged Inshore Patrol Craft. His crew attached a line and towed the damaged boat to safety. Lieutenant (junior grade) KERRY's calmness, professionalism, and great personal courage under fire were in keeping with the highest traditions of the United States Naval Service."
Brit gets a look in his eyes talking about this..I think he does know something. He was the first I saw saying the Swift Boat Veterans and the book deserved the same media look that the AWOL accusation got..
Google Bush National Guard and there are hundreds perhaps thousands of entries...but Kerry's service is off limits???
That was actually a very funny post! LoL!
A belated Congratulations is in order, I guess? If so, Congratulations!
Has anybody thought about starting a website with all the material that has been "Removed" from Kerry's website?
lies, lies, lies, lies.. do we really want 4 years of this from this obvious fraud?
I'm glad I saved every document Kerry posted on his campaign site
There, we have our source for documentation that has disappeared from Kerry's site.
"Is this info still on KerryEdward site and I just can't find it? "
Yes, actually it's still there, and yes, you just can't find it. See below for the links.
The question is: Why did Kerry have his medal citation reissued or rewritten 20 years after it was originally awarded.
It can all be cleared up if Kerry woud RELEASE ALL HIS MILITARY RECORDS!!! SIGN THE 180 FORM, Junior grade Lt!
Did he or didn't he? After reviewing Kerry's service records, as released by him, I find it hard to believe the media have not picked up on the John Lehman connection. It should set off all kinds of alarm bells, especially considering the recent flap over whether he threw his medals away or not.
A very curious question arises over Kerry's multiple Silver (3) and Bronze (2) star citations. Two of the five were signed by John Lehman who was Secretary of the Navy in the Reagan Administration 5 Feb 1981 - 10 Apr 1987. There are three Silver Star citations supplied by Kerry. One was signed by ADM Zumwalt, one by ADM Hyland, and one by Secretary Lehman. The Bronze Star citations were signed by Zumwalt and Lehman. Specifically,
Zumwalt: ADM Zumwalt served as Commander, US Naval Forces Vietnam from Sep 1968-May 1970. The Silver Star citation is more than likely the original citation taken from the award submission. Normally, as part of the nomination form, the nominator must provide a synopsis of the award (citation) that can fit on a single page suitable for framing with the certificate. Zumwalt's citation covered two pages. I suspect that Zumwalt forwarded the award to CINCPAC, ADM Hyland, for the final signature, including the citation. It is worth noting that the requirement to go to CINCPAC applied only to the Silver Star, hence only the Zumwalt and Lehman citations for the Bronze Star, i.e., Zumwalt as the final approving authority and Lehman for the replacement/reissue.
Hyland: CINCPAC probably edited the Zumwalt Silver Star citation to make it fit on to one page and to clean it up a bit to fit the existing format. ADM Hyland was CINCPAC 30 Nov 1967 - 05 Dec 1970
Lehman: Except for the last sentence, the Silver Star citation is the same as Hyland's. What makes this curious is that Secretary Lehman signed the citation at least over 12 and up to 18 years after the events occurred. Kerry served in Vietnam from November 1968 to April 1969. I doubt, in any event, that the final approval authority for Silver Stars had to go to SECNAV for approval. We also have photographic evidence that Kerry had the Silver Star medal pinned on in 1969. Kerry also acknowledges that he received them. My take is that Kerry requested replacement medals and due to the fact that Kerry was no longer an active duty service member, administrative requirements mandated that SECNAV's office had to approve the issue of the replacements once it was verified from official records that Kerry had actually earned them.
The bottom line is that Kerry probably did throw away his medals and then requested replacements in the 1980s. Someone needs to raise this issue with Kerry, i.e., why did Secretary Lehman sign duplicate Bronze and Silver Star citations at least 12 years after you left Vietnam? Kerry needs to release all of his military records including the nomination forms, which will give us the chronology and the approval chain of command.
Kerry's reaction on Good Morning America fits his MO. He wants it both ways. When he discovered that throwing away your medals was politically a negative, he came up with the story about his ribbons and someone else's medals. Kerry realized that he couldn't walk away from the story entirely, especially since he has the medals displayed prominently in his office. However, the fly in the ointment is that we now have the citations, released by him, signed by Lehman. If he indeed requested replacement medals, he has a real problem, i.e., he was telling the truth initially, lied in the 80s, and is lying now.
I recognize that confronting Kerry on his military service is fraught with problems politically, but I believe there are plenty of inconsistencies that need to be made public. His antiwar activities and associations (Fonda, Ramsey Clark, the Vietnam Veterans Against the War, et. al) also need to be exposed fully. The fact that Kerry was a member of the inactive Naval Reserves (1970-2) subject to involuntary recall and could meet with the Communist Vietnamese in Paris (per his sworn Congressional testimony) while our forces were engaged in hostilities is disgraceful. In fact it has recently been learned that Kerry met twice with the Communists in Paris.
Kerry is frozen in a time warp when it comes to his service in Vietnam. His preoccupation with his medals borders on being an obsession. If you check Kerry's released military records, you will notice that Kerry amended his DD214 with a DD215. Among other things, Kerry burnishes his Vietnam Service medal by adding four bronze service stars to reflect various campaigns. This was done in March 2001!!! Why anyone would go through that effort to make some meaningless changes is beyond me. Hundreds of thousands of veterans, including myself, could do it, but beyond self-gratification and ego, what is the point?
I thought Brit was talking about the Silver Star, not the Bronze Star. Which, by the way, was signed by John Lehman as Secretary of the Navy, which he was not in 1969. Well, maybe in Cambodia . . . .
On a side note has anyone ever actually seen his medals? It is an interesting question because as much as Kerry has been running on them I don't recall ever actually seeing them. Maybe he threw them over the fence because I can not believe Kerry would not have been shining them up by now.
Are you questioning my posting skills ? :)
As it has been suggested previously, Kerry probably requested replacements for the ones he tossed away or tore up. Since Kerry was elected to the Senate in Nov. of '84, he didn't take office until Jan. of '85. So sometime after being elected, he submitted a request for new citations so he could hang them in his new office.
Rumor has it that they hang on his Senate office wall.
Are you questioning my posting skills ? :)
Hey I posted in Cambodia. I did its seared in my memory, it was Christmas I believe.
Oh please. Sniper fire? How can you pick that out from ‘automatic weapons fire? If it was real sniper fire, we wouldn’t be having this discussion. Lt(jg) John von Munchausen’s stories get more heroic with each telling. You do know he’s carrying shrapnel in his thigh now, don’t you?
I wonder if it is cached on Google??
I Agree, lol. ^5..........
Hey I posted in Cambodia
Maybe you should throw your secret agent CIA hat into the mix as well.
" Whle exiting the river, a mine detonated under another Inshore Patrol Craft and almost simultaneously, another mine detonated close aboard his Inshore Patrol Craft knocking a man into the water and wounding ..."
Two mine explosions ??
Page 90- "Unfit for Command " :
"Besides THE MINE exploding under PCF 3, there was no other hostile fire and there were no other mines,according to
Chenoweth,
Odell,
Pease and
Thurlow.
" John F Kerry, By The Boston Globe Reporters Who Know Him Best, " Page 106 :
'The flotilla of approximately five swift boats was cruising along a narrow canal,
with Kerry's boat toward the front,
when A MINE detonated..."
It is consistant with JF'ns history of taking EVERYTHING that there whether you earn it or not.
By the way, the ribbons can be purchased at any clothing sales store on a military installation.
no wait it wasn't Christmas, it was in January and I was taking Rassmas, no, John Rambo, yeah thats the ticket. It was me and Rambo and I toughened him up because he was such a wimp compared to me. Just ask my wife, There, I mean Morgan Fairchild.
I know Kerry was in Cambodia and Vietnam before he was in Cambodia and Vietnam, but was he ever in the SENATE?
The medals are just cloth and metal, what is at issue here is the medal citations, the piece of paper that authorizes the servicemember to wear the medal.
Why was the citation rewritten and reissued?
Because he had destroyed the originals. He was elected to the Senate in Nov. 1984 and took office in Jan. '85. Sometime during that year, Kerry must have requested new copies to hang on his new Senate office. The Kerry campaign told Major Garrett of Fox News that the new citations were requested for framing purposes.
when A MINE detonated..."
It depends on what the deinition of "A" is.
As to the military records, even if every one of them were released, I am almost willing to bet that some are missing and won't clear up anything anyway.
When did the reporter notice the medals on the wall in Kerry's office? Was the set complete at that time? Who is going to care, really?
Some of the paperwork could just plain be missing due to an honest oversight. Some of it could be removed deliberately anywhere along the way.
I'm really intrigued why the WP went after and got that one document el pronto, like they were guided to it. I guess if you are the WP, requests can be expedited.
If you come up with a good explanation, please post it. You obviously put a lot of thought and work into it.
The easiest explanation for me is that for whatever reason, the paper trail was deficient, and Kerry wanted all the holes plugged for his future political plans.
Ah-OOOH-gaa! Whoop! WHoop! Whoop! Bzzzt. Bzzzzt. Bzzzt.
I'm no handwriting expert, but they appear the same, strikingly so. Unless you forged yours :-). Just kidding.
That is a valid reason, if true. My medal citations did not hold up very well in the binders they were issued in. I should have framed them when I received them, but I was living on a ship at sea. ;)
>>His crew attached a line and towed the damaged boat to safety.
I haven't been following closely, is this wrong?
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