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Bush Guard Service, The True Story
ChronWatch ^ | 8/26/04 | Gordon Bloyer

Posted on 08/27/2004 3:46:59 AM PDT by kattracks

This is the only place that you will get the full and true story of President Bush’s Air National Guard service. There are no UNANSWERED questions. There are no missing records. He did not miss any meetings. The truth is known. You can find everything in this article, in other publications but none of the others are complete. You have to put them all together to get the full story. It is a shame that our national "objective" media refuse to do their job and put the whole story together.

First, in answer to the charge that Bush was AWOL or missed meetings, George Bush was NEVER assigned to the Alabama Guard. This is a myth promoted by the "objective" media. Here is what really happened. Here is what the head of the Alabama Guard said.

Turnipseed states Bush was never ordered to report to the Alabama Air National Guard. He points out that Bush never transferred from the Texas Air National Guard to the Alabama Air National Guard. He remained in the Texas Guard during his stay in Alabama. This was confirmed by the Texas Guard. And Turnipseed added that Bush was never under his command or any other officer in the Alabama Guard.

Turnipseed added that Bush was informed of the drill schedule of the Alabama Guard as a courtesy so he could get credit for drills while in Alabama for his service record in the Texas Guard. There was no compulsory attendance. This was also confirmed by the Texas Guard.

This was reported in the Chicago Sun-Times and has never been picked up by any other news organization. Turnipseed then also added.

For Bush to be "AWOL" or "away without leave," he would have had to have been assigned to a unit and under its command.

For the liberals reading this, go back and read it again. You see, Bush did NOT miss any meetings. The whole argument is nonsense. He got permission from his commanding officer to go to Alabama and attend meetings as a courtesy so he could attend when he could. Another part of this attack is that no one saw Bush at the meetings he did attend. It was reported that Turnipseed never saw Bush. Read what was reported about that.

Turnipseed reversed gear after retired Lt. Col. John "Bill" Calhoun went public to say that not only did he remember Bush in Alabama, but that it was Turnipseed himself that introduced the two. Oops. And really...the media is completely asleep at the switch on this one. How many people that you saw a few times do you remember from 30 years ago?

Why didn’t fellow pilots see Bush in Alabama? The planes being flown by the Alabama Guard were not the same as the F102 that Bush was trained on. Why would pilots see him if he was not flying? That is why Lt. Col. Calhoun came forward to say that was Bush was in his office for study and drill time. Remember he was not assigned to the unit, he did NOT have to be there.

The following is from a letter by Col. William Campenni Ret. published in the Washington Times.

There was one big exception to this abusive use of the Guard to avoid the draft, and that was for those who wanted to fly, as pilots or crew members. Because of the training required, signing up for this duty meant up to 2½½ years of active duty for training alone, plus a high probability of mobilization. A fighter-pilot candidate selected by the Guard (such as Lt. Bush and me) would be spending the next two years on active duty going through basic training (six weeks), flight training (one year), survival training (two weeks) and combat crew training for his aircraft (six to nine months), followed by local checkout (up to three more months) before he was even deemed combat-ready. Because the draft was just two years, you sure weren't getting out of duty being an Air Guard pilot. If the unit to which you were going back was an F-100, you were mobilized for Vietnam. Avoiding service? Yeah, tell that to those guys. The Bush critics do not comprehend the dangers of fighter aviation at any time or place, in Vietnam or at home, when they say other such pilots were risking their lives or even dying while Lt. Bush was in Texas. Our Texas ANG unit lost several planes right there in Houston during Lt. Bush's tenure, with fatalities. Just strapping on one of those obsolescing F-102s was risking one's life.

Here is some information that the "objective" media avoids telling you. John Kerry joined the Navy Reserve, he did not JOIN the Navy. The Reserve was just like the National Guard. Kerry did NOT know he would be sent to Vietnam.

George Bush joined the Guard for a SIX-year term. If you are drafted, you only have to serve TWO years. Bush probably did not need to pull strings to get into a jet fighter unit. Jets required a greater time commitment than normal Guard postings. Pilots from the unit that he joined were being sent to Vietnam. All the publications that have researched this have concluded that there is NO evidence that he used any influence to get into the Guard. The liberal publications will say that there is no evidence, but it is still suspicious. That is a good journalistic standard? So, do you get it, Bush joined a unit that at the time was serving in Vietnam.

The following is research from aerospaceweb.org ........

Nevertheless, we have established that the F-102 was serving in combat in Vietnam at the time Bush enlisted to become an F-102 pilot. In fact, pilots from the 147th FIG of the Texas ANG were routinely rotated to Vietnam for combat duty under a program called "Palace Alert" from 1968 to 1970. Palace Alert was an Air Force program that sent qualified F-102 pilots from the ANG to bases in Europe or southeast Asia for periods of three to six months for frontline duty. Fred Bradley, a friend of Bush's who was also serving in the Texas ANG, reported that he and Bush inquired about participating in the Palace Alert program. However, the two were told by a superior, MAJ Maurice Udell, that they were not yet qualified since they were still in training and did not have the 500 hours of flight experience required. Furthermore, ANG veteran COL William Campenni, who was a fellow pilot in the 111th FIS at the time, told the Washington Times that Palace Alert was winding down and not accepting new applicants.

As he was completing training and being certified as a qualified F-102 pilot, Bush's squadron was a likely candidate to be rotated to Vietnam. However, the F-102 was built for a type of air combat that wasn't seen during that conflict, and the plane was withdrawn from southeast Asia in December 1969. The F-102 was instead returned to its primary role of providing air defense for the United States. In addition, the mission of Ellington AFB, where Bush was stationed, was also changing from air defense alert to training all F-102 pilots in the US for Air National Guard duty. Lt. Bush remained in the ANG as a certified F-102 pilot who participated in frequent drills and alerts through April of 1972. ... By this time, the 147th Fighter Wing was also beginning to transition from the F-102 to the F-101F, an updated version of the F-101B used primarily for air defense patrols. Furthermore, the war in Vietnam was nearing its end and the US was withdrawing its forces from the theater. Air Force personnel returning to the US created a glut of active-duty pilots, and there were not enough aircraft available to accommodate all of the qualified USAF and ANG pilots. Since USAF personnel had priority for the billets available, many of the Air National Guard pilots whose enlistments were nearly complete requested early release. The ANG was eager to fulfill these requests because there was not enough time to retrain F-102 pilots to operate new aircraft before their enlistments were up anyway. Bush was one of those forced out by the transition, and he was honorably discharged as a first lieutenant in October 1973, eight months before his six-year enlistment was complete. Bush had approximately 600 flight hours by the time he completed his military service.

The folks at aerospaceweb concluded.........

While Bush did not see combat in Vietnam, it is also obvious he was not seeking a way to avoid the risk of being sent to Vietnam. At the time he was training to be an F102 pilot, ANG units and that aircraft type were based in Vietnam.

In conclusion, there is no evidence Bush got special treatment to join the Guard. He did NOT miss any meetings, he was not assigned to the Alabama Guard. The reason the so called "objective" media holds on to this myth is that it lets them keep asking, where was Bush? The issue of his being grounded is also answered because he would no longer be flying since his plane was obsolete and he did not have enough Guard time left to train in a new jet. You don’t need to report for a physical if you are not flying. Duh!

Kerry joined the Navy Reserve and did not expect to go to Vietnam. When Kerry did go to Vietnam the swift boats were not during river patrols. They were doing coastal patrols and were not in much danger. That is when he volunteered to join the Swiftee’s. The assignment of those boats was changed after he was accepted for the duty. Surprise, he got action and the rest is disputed history.

The information in this article was published in "George Magazine", "New York Times", "Washington Times", "Chicago Sun-Times", "Washington Post" and aerospaceweb.org.

About the Writer: Gordon Bloyer has been called a Renaissance man by Ronn Owens of KGO radio in San Francisco. Rush Limbaugh read from a letter by Gordon on his national radio show. President Ronald Reagan invited Gordon to the White House to thank him for his support. He has appeared on numerous radio and television shows. The Gordon Bloyer Show can be seen at http://gordonbloyershow.com .



TOPICS: Extended News; News/Current Events; Politics/Elections
KEYWORDS: 229; bush; militaryrecord; tang
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To: netmilsmom
Great article, but no one in the world will pay attention to it unless they are already in the choir.

I disagree. There are plenty of folks who are just now beginning to pay attention to the election, and they are susceptible to the slime coming out of the DNC over the next few weeks. We need to be ready to refute the statements and allegations that will be floated on the upcoming 60 Minutes show and the book coming out by Kitty Kelly.

51 posted on 09/06/2004 9:33:14 AM PDT by SuziQ (Bush in 2004-Because we MUST!!!)
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To: Howlin

Thanks Howlin!...


52 posted on 09/06/2004 9:34:24 AM PDT by TomServo ("Hi, welcome to Deep 13, would you like to try a creamy thruster-buster?")
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To: Howlin

Thank you....


53 posted on 09/06/2004 9:37:59 AM PDT by lysie
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To: Lady Jag

I never tire of seeing Bush in that flying outfit! Now, there's man.


54 posted on 09/06/2004 9:38:05 AM PDT by Carolinamom
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To: Howlin

Thanks, have added to my "stack of stuff".


55 posted on 09/06/2004 9:41:49 AM PDT by ride the whirlwind (Where I come from, deeds mean more than words. - Zell Miller)
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To: kattracks; Howlin

Thanks for this post, kattracks. And thanks for the ping, Howlin. This article refutes all the faux charges against Bush and prepares us to rebut the coming onslaught of slime.


56 posted on 09/06/2004 9:41:54 AM PDT by Carolinamom
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To: kattracks

bump


57 posted on 09/06/2004 9:45:46 AM PDT by kimosabe31
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To: Howlin

Thanks.... this article does a good job of explaining the nuances of Guard Service. It has been layed out before but still rears it's ugly head.

However the one major difference in all this is that I believe the public will judge the President on his tenure as CinC rather some Guard duty of 35 years ago. Whereas Kerry has tried to make his duty of 35 years ago a theme of his campaign, President Bush has not. Both served under the rules of the time, got honorable discharges and there's not a lot more to say, imo.


58 posted on 09/06/2004 9:46:07 AM PDT by deport (In politics, as in fishing, you don't have to be a genius. You just have to be smarter than the fish)
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To: ride the whirlwind

My "stack of stuff" now extends into another room.......and My Favorites folder unfolds down to the floor...........LOL.


59 posted on 09/06/2004 9:47:15 AM PDT by Howlin (I'm mad as Zell)
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To: Howlin; Lady Jag

LOL,at your stack of stuff. No time for fall cleanup til Nov. 3, or 4th or 5th......

New wallpaper Lady Jag, Thanks.


60 posted on 09/06/2004 9:51:02 AM PDT by baseballmom (You Know Where I Stand - GW Bush - 9/2/04 We're standing with you, Mr. President)
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To: jackbill; Howlin
Here's another one, from The Dallas Morning News:

July 4, 1999
"Bush's stint in Guard scrutinized":
REBUTTAL TO TODAY'S WASHINGTON POST HIT PIECE


61 posted on 09/06/2004 10:06:06 AM PDT by MeekOneGOP (There is only one GOOD 'RAT: one that has been voted OUT of POWER !! Straight ticket GOP!)
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To: Carolinamom
He looks great in the flight suit and he looks great in the White House.


62 posted on 09/06/2004 10:06:48 AM PDT by Lady Jag (Googolplex Star Thinker of the Seventh Galaxy of Light and Ingenuity)
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To: baseballmom

I need to do some SERIOUS rearranging of MY FAVORITES, or I'll never find anything! Heck, I even still have articles bookmarked from 2000!


63 posted on 09/06/2004 10:07:09 AM PDT by Howlin (I'm mad as Zell)
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To: baseballmom
Thank you, ma'am


64 posted on 09/06/2004 10:08:43 AM PDT by Lady Jag (Googolplex Star Thinker of the Seventh Galaxy of Light and Ingenuity)
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To: Howlin

Bookmarking!


65 posted on 09/06/2004 10:08:51 AM PDT by cyncooper (We're mad as Zell and we're not going to take it anymore!)
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To: Howlin; Happy2BMe; devolve; PhilDragoo
Here is some information that the "objective" media avoids telling you. John Kerry joined the Navy Reserve, he did not JOIN the Navy. The Reserve was just like the National Guard. Kerry did NOT know he would be sent to Vietnam.

Well, well, well !!

Kerry himself has said that HE 'answered the call' to go to Viet Nam.

What a liar he is! (yet again!)


66 posted on 09/06/2004 10:26:02 AM PDT by MeekOneGOP (There is only one GOOD 'RAT: one that has been voted OUT of POWER !! Straight ticket GOP!)
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To: Lady Jag

He looks good.......o.k. marvelous!....in ANY outfit! What's even better is what's under that hat.........just finished reading Matter of Character, which verifies that statement!


67 posted on 09/06/2004 10:26:41 AM PDT by Carolinamom
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To: Howlin

Thanks, Howlin- copied & saved. I'll use them all.


68 posted on 09/06/2004 10:30:13 AM PDT by backhoe
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To: MeekOneGOP

I believe that's the one that I linked in #42.


69 posted on 09/06/2004 10:46:49 AM PDT by jackbill
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To: Howlin

Oh ... and as for Cheney and his 5 deferments that Kerry charges.

I could be wrong and if I am .. I'm sure someone will correct me

But has anyone noticed that Cheney is OLDER then John Kerry??

The cut off age for the draft was 26 years of age .. they didn't draft you after that age and if you were married with children

When John Kerry joined the Navy Reserves in 1967 to avoid being drafted, he was 24 years old. Dick Cheney was 27 years old .. married with children

TRANSLATION .... Cheney would not have been drafted at that time


70 posted on 09/06/2004 10:47:29 AM PDT by Mo1 (FR NEWS ALERT .... John Kerry over dosed on Botox and thinks he's Bob KerrEy)
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To: kattracks

bttt!


71 posted on 09/06/2004 10:47:33 AM PDT by nmh (Intelligent people recognize Intelligent Design (God).)
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To: Carolinamom
There's never been a more beautiful couple in the White House.
(next to his dad and Barbara, of course)


72 posted on 09/06/2004 10:51:45 AM PDT by Lady Jag (Googolplex Star Thinker of the Seventh Galaxy of Light and Ingenuity)
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To: Mo1
January 30, 1941

So he would have been 18 in 1959; in 1968, he would have been 26.

73 posted on 09/06/2004 10:53:12 AM PDT by Howlin (I'm mad as Zell)
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To: Howlin
January 30, 1941

I was off a year .. I thought he was born in 1940

Thanks for the correction

74 posted on 09/06/2004 10:56:52 AM PDT by Mo1 (FR NEWS ALERT .... John Kerry over dosed on Botox and thinks he's Bob KerrEy)
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To: Mo1

College students got a 2-S deferrment for 4 years.

So that would have been until 1963, right?

More:

THE VIETNAM LOTTERIES
A lottery drawing - the first since 1942 - was held on December 1, 1969, at Selective Service National Headquarters in Washington, D.C. This event determined the order of call for induction during calendar year 1970, that is, for registrants born between January 1, 1944, and December 31, 1950. Reinstitution of the lottery was a change from the "draft the oldest man first" method, which had been the determining method for deciding order of call.

Oh, and there is this:

**The lottery drawing held July 1, 1970, determined the order in which men born in 1951 were called to report for induction into the military.

So, why didn't John Edwards enlist???


75 posted on 09/06/2004 10:58:24 AM PDT by Howlin (I'm mad as Zell)
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To: kattracks

Great post.


76 posted on 09/06/2004 11:01:57 AM PDT by austingirl
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To: Mo1

Aug. 29, 1964: Dick and Lynne Cheney marry.

May 19, 1965: The Selective Service classifies Dick Cheney 1-A, "available immediately for military service."

July 28, 1965: President Lyndon Johnson says draft calls will be doubled.

Oct. 26, 1965: The Selective Service declares that married men without children, who were previously exempted from the draft, will now be called up. Married men with children remain exempt.

Jan. 19, 1966: The Selective Service reclassifies Dick Cheney 3-A, "deferred from military service because service would cause hardship upon his family," because his wife is pregnant with their first child.

July 28, 1966: Elizabeth Cheney is born.

Jan. 30, 1967: Dick Cheney turns 26 and therefore becomes ineligible for the draft.


77 posted on 09/06/2004 11:02:26 AM PDT by Howlin (I'm mad as Zell)
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To: Mo1; kcvl

I still don't see where the "five deferrments" come in.


78 posted on 09/06/2004 11:04:18 AM PDT by Howlin (I'm mad as Zell)
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To: Howlin
College students got a 2-S deferrment for 4 years

I believe so .. but if I can recall from reading the number of drafts at that time were very low .. Johnson didn't start sending troops into vietnam till 65 and that was in low numbers

As for Edwards? .. imo .. he rec'd a deferment

79 posted on 09/06/2004 11:04:33 AM PDT by Mo1 (FR NEWS ALERT .... John Kerry over dosed on Botox and thinks he's Bob KerrEy)
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To: Mo1

But isn't the point that he COULD have enlisted at any time?


80 posted on 09/06/2004 11:08:34 AM PDT by Howlin (I'm mad as Zell)
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To: Howlin
May 19, 1965: The Selective Service classifies Dick Cheney 1-A, "available immediately for military service."

I don't see it either

Looks like he could have been drafted if they called him up

81 posted on 09/06/2004 11:09:39 AM PDT by Mo1 (FR NEWS ALERT .... John Kerry over dosed on Botox and thinks he's Bob KerrEy)
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To: Mo1
Looks like he could have been drafted if they called him up

And he didn't even do like Bill Clinton and leave the country!!!!

82 posted on 09/06/2004 11:10:40 AM PDT by Howlin (I'm mad as Zell)
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To: Howlin
But isn't the point that he COULD have enlisted at any time?

That only applies to Republicans ... Democrats were allowed to get deferments

83 posted on 09/06/2004 11:10:58 AM PDT by Mo1 (FR NEWS ALERT .... John Kerry over dosed on Botox and thinks he's Bob KerrEy)
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To: Howlin

Maybe we need someone that is more informed in this area

But the way I am reading this .. Cheney only rec'd 1 deferment when he first went to college after graduating from high school

The same as Kerry when he went off to college back then


84 posted on 09/06/2004 11:13:50 AM PDT by Mo1 (FR NEWS ALERT .... John Kerry over dosed on Botox and thinks he's Bob KerrEy)
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To: jackbill
I believe that's the one that I linked in #42.

Whoops! You are right! My bad. (Doh!)

Anyway, I have collected the info/links to this article and the ones you and
Howlin have posted here now, for future reference. Only I have included the
dates of the articles and the titles now as well .....

I am willing to bet that Kerry brings this cra* up again, even though it has
been rehashed and rebutted to the end of the earth and back already.


85 posted on 09/06/2004 11:15:38 AM PDT by MeekOneGOP (There is only one GOOD 'RAT: one that has been voted OUT of POWER !! Straight ticket GOP!)
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To: Howlin

Yes, a lot of us are waiting impatiently to find out why Edwards didn't volunteer.

That baby face is fooling a whole lot of people.


86 posted on 09/06/2004 11:18:01 AM PDT by texasbluebell
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To: Mo1

Correction .. that would be 2


87 posted on 09/06/2004 11:18:15 AM PDT by Mo1 (FR NEWS ALERT .... John Kerry over dosed on Botox and thinks he's Bob KerrEy)
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To: Howlin
Love the way the WP gets this in there at the very top .....


George W. Bush, right, during his Harvard Business School years. (Harvard Yearbook)


88 posted on 09/06/2004 11:27:48 AM PDT by MeekOneGOP (There is only one GOOD 'RAT: one that has been voted OUT of POWER !! Straight ticket GOP!)
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To: Mo1; Howlin; kabar; Bubba_Leroy
I'm bringing over to this thread some discussion from last week on Edwards.

It goes into why he wasn't drafted, the lottery, etc., but of course he could always have volunteered, and didn't.

Starting with this post #76 and following, including mine and kabar's on the next page of posts over at the link.

Be sure to check out kabar's posts 109 and 111 for further information.

I still say Edwards shouldn't be let off the hook, and should not be allowed to criticize those who enlisted and volunteered, when he didn't lift a finger!

89 posted on 09/06/2004 11:29:38 AM PDT by texasbluebell
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To: Howlin
I just recently heard an interesting tidbit about the President's gaurd service. Not sure if its accurate but the fact that it is not widely known seems typical of the family's reluctance to speak about themselves. Perhaps some of our better researchers can track it down

I'm told ANG jet fighter plane training takes a year. Apparently, during that year GWB was himself given a nickname by some in his unit, Captain Data. He spent a great deal of time studying the F102, becoming so thoroughly knowledgable with every detail that his fellow trainees came to him for help in understanding the aircraft and its capabilities.. Now, that doesn't sound like someone who tried to avoid service, just the opposite, in fact.

Moreover, we know the President not only loves his father but has enormous respect for him, his accomplishments and the way he has lived his life. There is no way GWB would not have tried his very best to be a pilot his dad could be proud of and more than ready had he been called up. This is a loser issue for the dems just as Kerry's 4 months in VN has been.

90 posted on 09/06/2004 11:33:04 AM PDT by Darlin' ("I will not forget this wound to my country." President George W Bush, 20 Sept 2001)
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To: Lady Jag

bump and bookmark


91 posted on 09/06/2004 11:36:30 AM PDT by I'm ALL Right! (Spitballs: The official weapon of the DemocRATic party.)
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To: texasbluebell

Well, look at that thread now; I made some comments.

And Edwards WAS elgible for the draft from June 10, 1969 until the end of the draft; he had a student deferrment.


92 posted on 09/06/2004 12:01:59 PM PDT by Howlin (I'm mad as Zell)
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To: texasbluebell
Edwards is a Hypocrite!
93 posted on 09/06/2004 12:10:07 PM PDT by Mo1 (FR NEWS ALERT .... John Kerry over dosed on Botox and thinks he's Bob KerrEy)
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To: Mo1; mewzilla; texasbluebell; backhoe; kabar
Oh, look at this:

Cheney and Bush Campaign Distort Record of Cheney's Deferments. The Washington Post reported in 1991 that Cheney received five deferments, four 2-S student deferments and one under the 3-A classification -- "registrant with a child or children; or registrant deferred by reason of extreme hardship to dependents." In his Senate confirmation hearing, Cheney said he "would have obviously been happy to serve had I been called," which contradicting his earlier statement, "I had other priorities in the '60s than military service." Bush staff members said Cheney received only three deferments, two for school and one for being a new father. [Washington Post, 4/3/91; Des Moines Register, 8/2/00]

Now here we have John Edwards' bio:

Education: JD, University of North Carolina-Chapel Hill, 1977 BS, North Carolina State University, 1974.

So, according to this, since John Edwards graduated from high school in 1969 and there most certainly WAS a draft then, we can assume that John Edwards was elgible for the draft in 1969, 1970, 1971, and 1972, and 1973.

So, following along, does that mean that John Edwards received 4 2-S deferments, too???

Am I right in that thinking??

94 posted on 09/06/2004 12:10:49 PM PDT by Howlin (I'm mad as Zell)
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To: Darlin'

I forgot to include you in post 94.


95 posted on 09/06/2004 12:11:14 PM PDT by Howlin (I'm mad as Zell)
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To: Howlin

Thats how I read it. The Breck Girl refused to serve.


96 posted on 09/06/2004 12:16:24 PM PDT by Darlin' ("I will not forget this wound to my country." President George W Bush, 20 Sept 2001)
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To: Howlin

Am I reading this right??

They are they counting 1 deferment per year he attended college?


97 posted on 09/06/2004 12:18:52 PM PDT by Mo1 (FR NEWS ALERT .... John Kerry over dosed on Botox and thinks he's Bob KerrEy)
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To: Howlin
So, following along, does that mean that John Edwards received 4 2-S deferments, too???

Also .. if they are counting 1 deferment for each year they attended college .. then wouldn't that mean Kerry rec'd 4 2-S deferments between 1962 to 1966?

98 posted on 09/06/2004 12:24:06 PM PDT by Mo1 (FR NEWS ALERT .... John Kerry over dosed on Botox and thinks he's Bob KerrEy)
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To: Howlin; kabar; Mo1

Here's a link

http://www.sss.gov/lotter1.htm

posted by kabar over on that other thread, which shows who was eligible to be drafted each year, according to their lottery number. (Other links at the bottom of that link.)

I think Edwards was only eligible to be drafted one of those years, but I may be reading it wrong.

He had high enough numbers otherwise, so was not drafted, in which case he didn't need the deferments, and I believe kabar said in that post that Edwards was only eligible the one year, 1973, at which point no one was being drafted anymore.

However, Edwards could have volunteered at any time! But did not. Chose to sit it out drinking beer in college with his pals.


99 posted on 09/06/2004 12:24:39 PM PDT by texasbluebell
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To: Darlin'; Mo1

That's what I'm seeing. Could we ALL be that wrong?

If they want to count legitimate 2-S deferments, let's count everybody's!


100 posted on 09/06/2004 12:25:53 PM PDT by Howlin (I'm mad as Zell)
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