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Abolish the Electoral College
NY Times ^ | August 29, 2004

Posted on 08/28/2004 11:34:36 PM PDT by Former Military Chick

When Republican delegates nominate their presidential candidate this week, they will be doing it in a city where residents who support George Bush have, for all practical purposes, already been disenfranchised. Barring a tsunami of a sweep, heavily Democratic New York will send its electoral votes to John Kerry and both parties have already written New York off as a surefire blue state. The Electoral College makes Republicans in New York, and Democrats in Utah, superfluous. It also makes members of the majority party in those states feel less than crucial. It's hard to tell New York City children that every vote is equally important - it's winner take all here, and whether Senator Kerry beats the president by one New York vote or one million, he will still walk away with all 31 of the state's electoral votes.

The Electoral College got a brief spate of attention in 2000, when George Bush became president even though he lost the popular vote to Al Gore by more than 500,000 votes. Many people realized then for the first time that we have a system in which the president is chosen not by the voters themselves, but by 538 electors. It's a ridiculous setup, which thwarts the will of the majority, distorts presidential campaigning and has the potential to produce a true constitutional crisis. There should be a bipartisan movement for direct election of the president.

The main problem with the Electoral College is that it builds into every election the possibility, which has been a reality three times since the Civil War, that the president will be a candidate who lost the popular vote. This shocks people in other nations who have been taught to look upon the United States as the world's oldest democracy. The Electoral College also heavily favors small states. The fact that every one gets three automatic electors - one for each senator and a House member - means states that by population might be entitled to only one or two electoral votes wind up with three, four or five.

The majority does not rule and every vote is not equal - those are reasons enough for scrapping the system. But there are other consequences as well. This election has been making clear how the Electoral College distorts presidential campaigns. A few swing states take on oversized importance, leading the candidates to focus their attention, money and promises on a small slice of the electorate. We are hearing far more this year about the issue of storing hazardous waste at Yucca Mountain, an important one for Nevada's 2.2 million residents, than about securing ports against terrorism, a vital concern for 19.2 million New Yorkers. The political concerns of Cuban-Americans, who are concentrated in the swing state of Florida, are of enormous interest to the candidates. The interests of people from Puerto Rico scarcely come up at all, since they are mainly settled in areas already conceded as Kerry territory. The emphasis on swing states removes the incentive for a large part of the population to follow the campaign, or even to vote.

Those are the problems we have already experienced. The arcane rules governing the Electoral College have the potential to create havoc if things go wrong. Electors are not required to vote for the candidates they are pledged to, and if the vote is close in the Electoral College, a losing candidate might well be able to persuade a small number of electors to switch sides. Because there are an even number of electors - one for every senator and House member of the states, and three for the District of Columbia - the Electoral College vote can end in a tie. There are several plausible situations in which a 269-269 tie could occur this year. In the case of a tie, the election goes to the House of Representatives, where each state delegation gets one vote - one for Wyoming's 500,000 residents and one for California's 35.5 million.

The Electoral College's supporters argue that it plays an important role in balancing relations among the states, and protecting the interests of small states. A few years ago, this page was moved by these concerns to support the Electoral College. But we were wrong. The small states are already significantly overrepresented in the Senate, which more than looks out for their interests. And there is no interest higher than making every vote count.

Making Votes Count: Editorials in this series remain online at nytimes.com/makingvotescount.


TOPICS: Editorial; US: California; US: District of Columbia; US: Florida; US: Nevada; US: New York; US: Utah; US: Wyoming
KEYWORDS: 2004electionfraud; algoreisnotmyprez; algorelostgetoverit; california; callawaaambulance; districtofcolumbia; elections; electoralcollege; federalist68; florida; howtostealanelection; mathagainsttyranny; mediabias; moveonalready; nevada; newyork; newyorkcity; newyorkslimes; newyorktimes; nytimesbias; slimes; utah; waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa; wyoming
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1 posted on 08/28/2004 11:34:36 PM PDT by Former Military Chick
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To: Chieftain; Ragtime Cowgirl; gatorbait; writer33; GreyFriar; 68-69TonkinGulfYachtClub; ...

Wow the NY times is 2 for 2. But, wasn't this what Hill was pushing after the last election.

If so the Times will use her to push their agenda. Clinto/Times the agenda is the same.


2 posted on 08/28/2004 11:36:14 PM PDT by Former Military Chick (I previously posted under Military Chick)
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To: Former Military Chick

Oh great, now the dems can go crazy with vote fraud.


3 posted on 08/28/2004 11:37:32 PM PDT by Che Chihuahua (The only good liberal is a dead communist.)
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To: Former Military Chick
The main problem with the Electoral College is that it builds into every election the possibility, which has been a reality three times since the Civil War, that the president will be a candidate who lost the popular vote. This shocks people in other nations who have been taught to look upon the United States as the world's oldest democracy.

The leaders of most other nations are not elected by majorites, but by pluralities (rather like all Democrat Presidents since 1944, except Johnson and Carter). In the parliamentary regimes, the voters don't even get to choose their leaders - the parties do, and then the voters get merely the choice of party or local party representative if they are lucky (as in Canada and Britain).

4 posted on 08/28/2004 11:39:20 PM PDT by Hermann the Cherusker
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To: Former Military Chick

This nation does not elect any federal officials in a nationwide ballot... why should the President be different?


5 posted on 08/28/2004 11:39:42 PM PDT by Lunatic Fringe (http://www.drunkenbuffoonery.com/mboards/)
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To: Former Military Chick
Lets abolish mafia errr ahh unions and keep the EC !
6 posted on 08/28/2004 11:40:02 PM PDT by Squantos (Be polite. Be professional. But, have a plan to kill everyone you meet. ©)
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To: Former Military Chick
It's hard to tell New York City children that every vote is equally important

Do it for the children. LoL!

7 posted on 08/28/2004 11:42:09 PM PDT by demlosers
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To: Former Military Chick

Apparently the Slimes does not understand the reasin that our founders set up the elecotral college. Small states are NOT over represented if anything they are under represented. If you want to go to a straight popular vite then last time around you would have ended up with Gore. The whole point of the electoral college is to make candidates work for votes from states and areas they would otherwise pass up. Look at the Bush Gore map of 2000....Gore came dangerously close to winning by focusing on the large population centers thus leaving out MOST of the rest of the country. The electoral college is massively better than ANY other possible voting suggestion that I have ever read....Read some history, under stand the nature of a republic, keep the electoral college


8 posted on 08/28/2004 11:43:08 PM PDT by jnarcus
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To: Former Military Chick

Electoral College is great, There should be a limit on the number of electors from a state before a state needs to split into two. California is insane, that monster needs to be split into three states.


9 posted on 08/28/2004 11:44:29 PM PDT by dila813
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To: jnarcus

Without the EC, candidates would just focus on NY, CA, TX, FL and a handful of coastal mega states. Soon, the fedgov representing these mega states would carve up the "hinterland" into a series of virtual colonies.

Of course, the NYT would love this outcome.

The founding fathers were brilliant.


10 posted on 08/28/2004 11:46:47 PM PDT by Travis McGee (----- www.EnemiesForeignAndDomestic.com -----)
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To: Former Military Chick; MeekOneGOP; PhilDragoo; ntnychik; potlatch; Happy2BMe; onyx; Smartass; ...



"This shocks other nations!" -- NYT


Oh


We just gotta change the US Constitution!


11 posted on 08/28/2004 11:47:49 PM PDT by devolve ( -- Kerry & POW`s families - http://pro.lookingat.us/POW.html --)
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To: dila813

The way that state votes, it might do well to find another way. Different parts of CA vote with the conservatives. They are just outmanned do to the rest of the state. imho


12 posted on 08/28/2004 11:48:25 PM PDT by Former Military Chick (I previously posted under Military Chick)
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To: Former Military Chick
A few years ago, this page was moved by these concerns to support the Electoral College.

I bet that one would only have to go back a few months ago to find a Times editorial decrying any attempt to change the Constitution. Just run a search on the "Defense of Marriage Amendment."

13 posted on 08/28/2004 11:48:57 PM PDT by Dont Mention the War (we use the ˇ°ml maximizeˇ± command in Stata to obtain estimates of each aj , bj, and cm.)
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To: Former Military Chick
The main problem with the Electoral College is that it builds into every election the possibility, which has been a reality three times since the Civil War, that the president will be a candidate who lost the popular vote it actually allows states other than New York, Massachusetts, California and Illinois to have some sort of say as to who gets to be President, and who doesn't.

Edited for intellectual honesty. If they're going to advocate radical alterations in the U.S. Constitution, they should -- at the barest minimum -- be honest as to precisely why they're so desperate to do so.

14 posted on 08/28/2004 11:48:58 PM PDT by KentTrappedInLiberalSeattle (I feel more and more like a revolted Charlton Heston, witnessing ape society for the very first time)
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To: Former Military Chick

The Slimes need a history lesson.


15 posted on 08/28/2004 11:49:09 PM PDT by demlosers
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To: Former Military Chick; Congressman Billybob
The majority does not rule and every vote is not equal - those are reasons enough for scrapping the system

Straight from the NY Slimes: Support for Tyranny of the Minority..

16 posted on 08/28/2004 11:49:33 PM PDT by Experiment 6-2-6 (Meega, Nala Kweesta! Romanes Eunt Domus....)
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To: Former Military Chick
(The majority does not rule and every vote is not equal - those are reasons enough for scrapping the system.)

scrapping the system? NO WAY!

17 posted on 08/28/2004 11:50:44 PM PDT by Jet Jaguar (Who would the terrorists vote for?)
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To: Former Military Chick

I thought hillary was going to get right on this about 4 years ago.The NYT would be much better off seriously investigating the charges against Kerry rather than batting the air with proposals to change the constitution. As it stands if the NYT likes something I'm against it.


18 posted on 08/28/2004 11:50:44 PM PDT by claudiustg (Go Sharon! Go Bush!)
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To: jnarcus

Absolutely. If the popular vote was all that counted, candidates would campaign in the Northeast and the West Coast, with the occasional layover in Chicago. Screw the rest of the nation. It's a terrible idea.


19 posted on 08/28/2004 11:50:48 PM PDT by inkling
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To: Former Military Chick

This is the very reason that we should instead go back to the original system where the Senate chose both the President and the VP.

Our Founding Fathers were smarter than we realized.


20 posted on 08/28/2004 11:52:30 PM PDT by Leatherneck_MT (Goodnight Chesty, wherever you may be.)
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To: Former Military Chick
The main problem with the Electoral College is that it builds into every election the possibility, which has been a reality three times since the Civil War, that the president will be a candidate who lost the popular vote.

Well, my friends at the "slimes" fail to realize that this is a Constitutional Republic" and not a European style democracy.

New York is not ever going to pick our president of these 50 states. It ain't gonna happen.

Stop repeating this stupid story every four years, ya hear!

21 posted on 08/28/2004 11:52:31 PM PDT by Cold Heat (http://ice.he.net/~freepnet/kerry/staticpages/index.php?page=20040531140357545)
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To: demlosers
>>It's hard to tell New York City children that every vote is equally important <<

Why is it so hard to tell them that? You tell them that they live in the most evil country in the world. You tell them that they should go out and have sex, and if it's with a member of the opposite sex, they can kill their babies, and if it's with a member of the same sex, it's the evil Western society's fault when they contract AIDS, and you tell them that the world owes them a living, that when they don't study and stay ignorant it's because evil rich white Texans don't give them enough money for education, that it's society's fault that they become violent loser criminals, shall I continue?
22 posted on 08/28/2004 11:52:35 PM PDT by Jeff Chandler ("Lieutenant Ricebottom reporting for duty.")
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To: jnarcus
Good post

And US Senators need to be elected by the state Assembly's like they were 100 years ago.
The original design by our founding dads of Senators being answerable to the power structure of each state makes more sense than appeals to base populist instincts they must now make.

23 posted on 08/28/2004 11:52:55 PM PDT by TeleStraightShooter (Sorry Kerry, you're 3 decimal places adrift: 3,000,000 not 3,000 "displaced"/murdered SE Asians)
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To: Former Military Chick

Ah, I just love the smell of desperation in the morning.


24 posted on 08/28/2004 11:53:28 PM PDT by smoothsailing (Eagles Up !!)
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To: claudiustg

>>As it stands if the NYT likes something I'm against it.<<

That little slogan should be put on a sampler. Those little pillows our grandmothers created.

Bumper stickers would be equally great.

Yes, I think Hill said this about 4 years ago. But perhaps she is like OJ she is really doing something and we cannot see it.


25 posted on 08/28/2004 11:53:31 PM PDT by Former Military Chick (I previously posted under Military Chick)
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To: Former Military Chick
We are hearing far more this year about the issue of storing hazardous waste at Yucca Mountain, an important one for Nevada's 2.2 million residents, than about securing ports against terrorism, a vital concern for 19.2 million New Yorkers.

Yeah, I'm sure port security is at the top of the list of concerns of the average resident of Syracuse.

26 posted on 08/28/2004 11:53:51 PM PDT by Dont Mention the War (we use the ˇ°ml maximizeˇ± command in Stata to obtain estimates of each aj , bj, and cm.)
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To: Former Military Chick

This is, and always will be a ridiculous idea.

The elctorial system simply reflects the desire of the majority of congressional districts within a state, then of states within the country. It prevents mob rule. Of course, not all electors get thier way. If three districts out of twenty in one state voted for greens, and the rest for blues..the state goes to the blue. It is, after all, a republic, not a straight democracy.

It's the same reason that the number three guy in succesion to the president is the speaker of the house. He is closer to the people, by choice, than any individual in congress. He is chosen by majority election within the house. A house that clearly represents each district of the US.


27 posted on 08/28/2004 11:53:56 PM PDT by Greenpees (Coulda Shoulda Woulda)
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To: Former Military Chick
The main problem with the Electoral College is that it builds into every election the possibility, which has been a reality three times since the Civil War, that the president will be a candidate who lost the popular vote.

Funny they would use the Civil War as a history marker here. Abolish the Electoral College and we will have another Civil War.

28 posted on 08/28/2004 11:54:03 PM PDT by Dolphy (Support swiftvets.com)
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To: Former Military Chick
If you want to abolish the Ec there should not be 2 commie Senators from one state. A small commie state like Delaware shouldn't have two commies in the Senate even if one is a RINO.

A state like wyoming shouldn't have 2 Senators either even if they are GOP.

If you don't agree with me then you don't agree with abolishing the EC !

30 posted on 08/28/2004 11:56:07 PM PDT by america-rules (It's US or THEM so what part don't you understand ?)
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To: Former Military Chick
The New York Times will be abolished before the Electoral College.
31 posted on 08/28/2004 11:57:39 PM PDT by Paleo Conservative (Do not remove this tag under penalty of law.)
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To: TeleStraightShooter

32 posted on 08/28/2004 11:57:47 PM PDT by Jet Jaguar (Who would the terrorists vote for?)
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To: Former Military Chick

NY Times vs. the Constitution BUMP

Let's do away with state lines while we are at it. No need to give every state (including Rhode Island and Alaska) 2 Senators. Why do we need 50 governors'? With the federal courts dictating laws to the states, let's just get the whole shebang overwith...


33 posted on 08/28/2004 11:58:14 PM PDT by weegee (YOU could have been aborted, and you wouldn't have had a CHOICE about it.)
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To: TeleStraightShooter

Spread it around.


34 posted on 08/28/2004 11:58:34 PM PDT by Jet Jaguar (Who would the terrorists vote for?)
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To: Former Military Chick
I think it's best to keep the Electoral College. I personally do not want every election decided exclusively by jackwits in the dense cities of New York, California, and Florida.

Small wonder the New York Slimes endorses this sort of change. It would cement their anti-American Leftist stranglehold on the Presidency.

35 posted on 08/28/2004 11:58:57 PM PDT by Prime Choice (Democrats. They want to have their cake and eat yours too.)
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To: Former Military Chick

The Slimes wants to abolish the EC for one reason only, and it's not because "every vote would count", it's because Al Gore fell victim to the EC. If this country did away with the EC, it will only allow this country to move quickly toward Socialism, whereby all the urban areas would control the policymaking. The EC was put into place for a purpose, each state has two Senators, and the Founding Fathers realized all this. Liberals have never been fans of equality.


36 posted on 08/28/2004 11:59:33 PM PDT by BigSkyFreeper (Real gun control is - all shots inside the ten ring)
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To: inkling
It's a terrible idea.

We keep forgetting, but we do not actually cast a vote for the candidate. We cast a vote for the electors.

We never have actually voted for the person. Ever.

37 posted on 08/28/2004 11:59:52 PM PDT by Cold Heat (http://ice.he.net/~freepnet/kerry/staticpages/index.php?page=20040531140357545)
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To: dila813
Nebraka & Maine dish out EC votes based on how the prez vote goes in each distict.
Nebraka & Maine have it right, and I wish CA would follow their lead.
If they did, Kerry would end up 30 EC votes instead of 54.

As a side note Ca would have been originaly 2 states but all the population was up north with the gold rush and new states were by default non-slave states.
The south would not have allowed it.

38 posted on 08/29/2004 12:01:08 AM PDT by TeleStraightShooter (Sorry Kerry, you're 3 decimal places adrift: 3,000,000 not 3,000 "displaced"/murdered SE Asians)
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To: Former Military Chick

Without the Electoral College, New York City would be able to use massive vote fraud to increase its influence over the election. With the Electoral College, once a candidate has a comfortable margin in a particular state (perhaps 5%+) there is no incentive to increase that margin by pandering to the extremes within that state.


39 posted on 08/29/2004 12:01:39 AM PDT by Paleo Conservative (Do not remove this tag under penalty of law.)
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To: Former Military Chick
Let's scrap CONGRESS. Some congressmen are elected virtually unopposed. Others squeak in with 50% of the vote or less. The voters that elect congress are then often under-represented when congressmen elected by heavy majorities line up on the losing side of closely contested legislation. What difference does it make who you elect if they can't pass anything? We must have pure democracy!
40 posted on 08/29/2004 12:01:40 AM PDT by UnbelievingScumOnTheOtherSide (Give Them Liberty Or Give Them Death! - Islam Delenda Est! - Rumble thee forth...)
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To: Che Chihuahua; Hermann the Cherusker; Lunatic Fringe; Squantos; demlosers; jnarcus; dila813; ...
I posted another article, that might get your dander up as well.

Where Prosecutors Say Votes Are Sold

41 posted on 08/29/2004 12:03:05 AM PDT by Former Military Chick (I previously posted under Military Chick)
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To: Former Military Chick
The Electoral College got a brief spate of attention in 2000, when George Bush became president even though he lost the popular vote to Al Gore by more than 500,000 votes.......It's a ridiculous setup, which thwarts the will of the majority

Well for one, 500,000 votes is miniscule for an American election. It says nothing of who's more popular. That's an attempt by the writer to use a big looking number to make his point look better. Second, Gore didn't the majority, so that doesn't work either. A runoff would probably have been necessary, and Bush could have won a runoff.

With our country divided into states, something like the Electoral Collage is necessary. Without it, a few big cities would decide the close elections.

Most ridiculous is this idiot trying to make the electoral college look like a few hundred people deciding the outcome of the election. I'm sorry, but that's hilariously stupid. The electors are decided by the results from each state, and going state by state, each state getting a say, is the best way to go.

42 posted on 08/29/2004 12:03:05 AM PDT by baseballfanjm
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To: Former Military Chick

Let's see now. kerry wins 49 states by 50,000 votes each. Pres Bush wins Texas by 3,000,000 votes. BUSH WINS!


43 posted on 08/29/2004 12:03:36 AM PDT by Graybeard58 (Graybeard - Illinois resident - Keyes voter)
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To: Former Military Chick

Let's see now. kerry wins 49 states by 50,000 votes each. Pres Bush wins Texas by 3,000,000 votes. BUSH WINS!


44 posted on 08/29/2004 12:04:30 AM PDT by Graybeard58 (Graybeard - Illinois resident - Keyes voter)
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To: UnbelievingScumOnTheOtherSide

lol


45 posted on 08/29/2004 12:05:05 AM PDT by TeleStraightShooter (Sorry Kerry, you're 3 decimal places adrift: 3,000,000 not 3,000 "displaced"/murdered SE Asians)
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To: Former Military Chick
In the case of a tie, the election goes to the House of Representatives, where each state delegation gets one vote - one for Wyoming's 500,000 residents and one for California's 35.5 million.

So what's the problem?

46 posted on 08/29/2004 12:05:08 AM PDT by kesg
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To: weegee

I think this is where someone would inject the "slippery slope" theory.

Excellent post.


47 posted on 08/29/2004 12:05:56 AM PDT by Former Military Chick (I previously posted under Military Chick)
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To: baseballfanjm
A runoff would probably have been necessary, and Bush could have won a runoff.

A runoff?

48 posted on 08/29/2004 12:08:04 AM PDT by Dont Mention the War (we use the ˇ°ml maximizeˇ± command in Stata to obtain estimates of each aj , bj, and cm.)
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To: Graybeard58

I like your method. Lets put into action.


49 posted on 08/29/2004 12:09:03 AM PDT by Former Military Chick (I previously posted under Military Chick)
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To: Cold Heat

I knew one of the Texas electors.


50 posted on 08/29/2004 12:09:35 AM PDT by weegee (YOU could have been aborted, and you wouldn't have had a CHOICE about it.)
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