Posted on 08/30/2004 2:45:59 PM PDT by SJackson
Personally I don't like Pat B. Too much anger for my tastes. I do think we need a major reshuffling over at DoD and the CIA. The intel and analysis has been pitiful to the point where folks like Pat call it deliberate. When the speculation on motive is a choice between incompetence or manipulation not in our national interest, I think its time for some fresh faces.
We should have gone into the territories of Pakistan and into western Iran if needed. We cannot grant them sanctuary. OBL and gang are still active and very likely will finally succeed in assassinating Pakistan's leadership and reattacking this country unless they are stopped. OBL and friends attacked us, not Iraq. A huge diversion of men and material has occurred. No love for Saddam, but we need to stay on target and take out al-Qaeda and their bases of support. Otherwise this war never ends which is basically what Perle advocates. That is not in our national interest. Going into the territories makes more sense than a global war.
the Paks have been very active in going after them. if we had moved into western pakistan, OBL would have gone into a population center someplace (he may well be there now), he wouldn't just sit around waiting for us to come and get him. Look what it took to find Saddam. we would have had to invade all of Pakistan, and then all of the side effects would have kicked in. and what it they tossed a nuke at our invading forces? it would have been a nightmare.
this global war has been going on for a while now - we joined it in earnest on 9-11. that's the hand we were dealt, we have to play it.
oh him ... I saw him go up against that lightweight Bill OReilly and he couldnt even answer straight on Iraq.
Here's a clue Pat J: In 1998, Saddam Hussein offered safe haven to Osama Bin laden.
Iraq is not about 'empire', it's about defeating enemies who support terrorists.
He's clueless as to the simple fact: WE DID THE RIGHT THING IN IRAQ.
dittos and well said.
Scary - Bush doesnt have a Jew in his cabinet?
What will the Elders of Zion say about this!?!?
Iran is not a democracy.
Look at it this way: If the US Supreme Court was made up of a bunch of self-appointed bishops who made the Holy Book their 'constitution' and decided to take up the power to not just overturn any laws passed, but to call any political opposition 'blasphemy' and jail political dissidents ... what kind of govt woudl you call it?
This is the world's only true Theocracy.
Majority of Iranians do not support it but want western-style democracy. The Iranian theocracy is very unpopular with its own people.
ahem, we *have* gone into Pakistan, FBI and electronic eavesdroppers and CIA have helped the pakistan military and police to catch the al qaeda.
Saddam offered osama bin laden safe haven in 1998.
http://freedomsruth.blogspot.com
bttt
We may have a modest presence. But fact is we haven't done enough. The tribes have had little reprocussion for supporting him. OBL is out there and still effective. Its probably going to take an al-Qaeda success like killing the President of Afghanistan or Pakistan before we realize our error. We have let him work act at a time and place of his choosing. We need to stay on target and take al-Qaeda out. 150K troops and $200 billion in Iraq hasn't put al-Qaeda six feet under.
Also, has it occurred to you that the ISI hasn't gotten OBL for a reason? It keeps the militants on the reservation by letting him slip through their fingers and by keeping him around we pour aid into Pakistan and we listen when they gripe about India. When he's gone, so is the aid.
The US has got to change the game and go after al-Qaeda directly; not get sucked into the notion that we are at war with the entire islamic world. That notion and our actions play into al Qaeda's hands. As an example, al-Qaeda has a stated aim of getting us out of Saudi Arabia. To that end they have largely been effective.
You seem to not be up to speed on what we are really doing in Pakistan and our stunning effectiveness in the past year. I understand, the MSM wont tell the story, because if it was told, people would understand that we are WINNING in Pakistan, just as we are winning in Iraq and Afghanistan, and we'd be talking 4-more-years ...
http://alphabetcity.blogspot.com/2004/08/ensnared-bush-doctrine-at-work-many.html
eNSnAred
THE BUSH DOCTRINE AT WORK
Many commentators attribute President Musharraf's recent victories in his crackdown on al-Qaida elements in Pakistan to the tough line he adopted after twice being the target of al-Qaida assassination attempts.
While this is certainly the case, there is a secret to his success.
Musharraf is benefiting from a CIA funded anti-terror operation utilizing surveillance and eavesdropping systems provided by the NSA.
As a result, the joint FBI-ISI operation has netted dozens of al-Qaida operatives and their backers over the last few weeks.
And there is a bonus: The ISI and Pakistani military, both of which are known to be shot through with Taliban and al-Qaida sympathizers, are being kept honest by Washington's high tech wizardry.
In this week's edition of the Friday Times of Lahore a tale is told of how Washington's heirs to blowback are going about dismantling the monster earlier administrations paid Pakistan to create: the descendants of Dr. Frankenstein's financiers, if you will, destroying his creation which, though necessary at the time, went so terribly wrong later.
Gather 'round, then. Here, in its entirety, is that tale.
IN THE CLUTCHES OF THE CIA-FBI COMBINE
by Imtiaz Gul
We are in the electronic clutches of the US, say intelligence officials
The latest string of raids and the resultant arrests of Al Qaeda suspects and their Pakistani backers underlines two realities. The US Federal Bureau of Investigation (FBI) is present in Pakistan in full force and forced by this presence and a commitment for cooperation by President Pervez Musharraf, the ISI is conducting the anti-terror campaign with professional commitment.
The FBI has put in place a system of electronic intelligence and communication never seen before in Pakistan. As an intelligence official put it, “We are in the electronic clutches of another country.”
But few people can guess the extent of FBI’s all-pervasive presence and the extent to which it can monitor communications in Pakistan. The anti-terror war began with the US acquisition of the Jacobabad airbase in October 2001. The process of “acquisition” continues with the help of sophisticated eavesdropping technology and computerised identification systems installed at various locations in Islamabad, Peshawar, Quetta, Lahore, Faisalabad and, in particular, Karachi.
In late 2002, the Capital Development Authority (CDA) in Islamabad had to cede a chunk of its executive block adjacent to the ISI headquarters to accommodate the rising numbers of anti-terror agents, both local and the US.
Sources privy to the “renovation“ of the CDA blocks told The Friday Times (TFT) that, to their surprise, at least two hundred new air-conditioners were installed in the building before the intelligence outfit members could move in. Besides serving the ISI-FBI personnel, these blocks also house the hi-tech surveillance and eavesdropping systems that are being used to intercept all calls to and from Pakistan.
These systems have been instrumental in keeping an eye on almost every telephonic conversation that takes place in these cities, an intelligence official said, adding that the authorities owed some of the stunning victories over militants, beginning with the arrest of Khalid Sheikh Mohammad in Rawalpindi, to this equipment.
The electronic intelligence devices also led to recent operations in Peshawar’s Hayatabad area, which has, for long, been the favourite abode of wealthy Afghans, Arabs and Africans. “I was surprised to know that the ISI-FBI eavesdropping did not spare even us,” said a senior official with a civilian intelligence outfit. They had every number I had dialled or calls I had received from. Based on that they also questioned me on my contacts, many of whom dated back to the Taliban era,” the official said.
“Even your private conversations are not safe,” another official said.
Enquiries in Lahore, Peshawar, Islamabad and Karachi reveal that most intelligence agents working on the anti-terror project together with scores of retired civilian and military intelligence officers, are constantly being monitored by the ISI-FBI-CIA combine.
The US consulate in Peshawar, another place where such hi-tech equipment has been installed tracks every phone call, officials say.
According to the Washington Post, “The (entire) operation is being paid for with millions of dollars from the CIA, supported with equipment from the National Security Agency (NSA) and carried out by Pakistani soldiers and intelligence units. It has netted more than 100 suspects in recent days. The [Pakistan] military effort has forced the fighters out of the rugged remote tribal areas [South and North Waziristan] into more urban areas, where they are more visible and vulnerable to capture, “ the paper quoted officials as saying.
Quoting another Pakistani intelligence official, the paper said: “US assistance comes in the shape of incredible data and analysis based on electronic and signal intercepts of Al Qaeda suspects all over the world. Their information is also based upon the detailed debriefing of the arrested suspects and a scientific follow-up of these debriefings held at unidentified locations.”
“It is the penetration of Pakistan’s telecom systems by the US organisations that has yielded better results and won it appreciation by President George W. Bush,” said a diplomat in Islamabad.
"The Pakis aren't going to nuke us. Get real.
Also, has it occurred to you that the ISI hasn't gotten OBL for a reason? It keeps the militants on the reservation by letting him slip through their fingers and by keeping him around we pour aid into Pakistan..."
See my previous post that debunks this line of thought. we are not playing that game anymore, and havent since 9/11.
We knew Pakis were lying to us, but clinton team did nothing about it. Bush team played harder; demanded concrete assistance. Pakistan's leader is on our side, gave us that assistance; we are on the inside, looking over the ISI shoulders and eavesdropping on every phone call in the country, and the powerful political forces arrayed against him are no longer able to play him, or us. our high-tech equipment has helped find and arrest many terrorists. The gains this summer have been sweeping and stunning, we took out a major part of their network. More good news to come.
Our intel was pitiful in the whole 1990s when we got this wrong:
India and Pakistan fired off nukes (didnt know);
didnt know about Cole bombing, or Riyadh;
didnt know how to find Bin Laden, or how to take him out;
RPNK nuke program scammed us for 10 years;
Iraq had nuke program 1991 (didnt know), bio-weapons 1995 (didnt know until defector told us).
Kerry was on intelligence committee the whole time.
Oh, and another one: Didnt know Libya was developing nukes until after we deposed Saddam and Libyan leader got scared.
"We cannot let ideological extremists of any stripe nor our allies and their minions control our nation's foreign policy."
Bush is in control of our foreign policy. Go read Tommy Franks' book "American Soldier". Our foreign policy is in good hands with Bush and the team he picked.
"How did we let these unelected wonks and wierdos take control?"
Sounds an apt description of Pat Buchanan ... Ask a strawman-based rhetorical question, get a 'grab a clue' for an answer.
I'll read it all later, but for now, how does NRO classify Buchanan, if not conservative? Libertarian? Populist? Just asking, so hold yer powder...
Take your history back a few centuries if you want to talk about long cultural clashes/wars. The muslim invasion of Spain took place in 711AD and they stayed as occupiers until thrown out by a variety of factors in 1492. That's about 800 years of occupation. Simplistically, if the North American indigens hold out for another 600 years, they may yet get their land back, especially if we don't see this war for the long term danger it is...
Oh, I haven't had to do that for years, now. I'm married. :)
Disclaimer: Opinions posted on Free Republic are those of the individual posters and do not necessarily represent the opinion of Free Republic or its management. All materials posted herein are protected by copyright law and the exemption for fair use of copyrighted works.