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Totalization Treaty With Mexico -- The Sellout of America Continues
U.S. BORDER CONTROL ^ | August/10/04

Posted on 08/31/2004 3:14:06 PM PDT by TERMINATTOR

A year ago, this organization warned that the Bush Administration was planning to do something unthinkable - they were seriously considering signing a pact with Mexico that would give any Mexican who had worked in the U.S., including illegal aliens, full U.S. Social Security benefits, paid out of your Social Security Trust Fund!

It seemed so far fetched, we had trouble convincing the Congress that it could happen. A White House spokesman denied our claim that it was on a fast track, stating the ongoing discussions for Totalization were just informal and preliminary.

But we knew better. We had obtained correspondence proving it was on a fast track and had seen plans for erecting a huge new building at the U.S. Embassy in Mexico City just to deal with the swarms of people anticipated to sign-up for this raid on our Social Security Trust Fund.

Well, it was on fast track, just as we said it was and a few weeks ago, the President signed the Totalization Treaty with Mexico and unless you and I can persuade the Congress to stop it, millions of Mexicans, including illegal aliens, will soon be living it up on your Social Security benefits!

The timing for repealing this outrageous treaty couldn't be worse. The few days we have to repeal this treaty are the same few days preceding the November election, when every Congressmen is campaigning hard for reelection and the Congress is seldom in session. In short, it was a very underhanded way to sneak a terrible treaty past the Congress.

So please click here to jump to our Congressional Action page and send an email to your representative TODAY!


TOPICS: Business/Economy; Constitution/Conservatism; Crime/Corruption; Culture/Society; Foreign Affairs; Front Page News; Government; War on Terror
KEYWORDS: 0loonieshere; 1canseenutshere; 2blackhelicopters; 4kooks; aliens; bushamnesty; bushbots; commishbarnhart; disguisedracism; forgeddocuments; harmonization; holocaustroundup; identitytheft; illegalaliens; illegalimmigrant; immigrantlist; immigration; kkk; kook; lol; mexicannationals; outsidetheus; paranoia; racismdisguised; socialsecurity; sspayments; sstrustfund; stolenssnumbers; stoppayment; thanksgringo; totalization; unauthorizedwork; xenaphobia; xenophobics
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Work 18 months using a stolen SS number, then recieve monthly "retirement" checks, direct deposit into a Banamex account.
1 posted on 08/31/2004 3:14:06 PM PDT by TERMINATTOR
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To: 1_Inch_Group; 2sheep; 2Trievers; 3AngelaD; 4.1O dana super trac pak; 4Freedom; 4ourprogeny; ...

ping


2 posted on 08/31/2004 3:19:06 PM PDT by gubamyster
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To: TERMINATTOR

That's not even close to being true about the treaty being valid for illegal aliens. It only applies to *legal* workers. Here's the first hit on Google that I got on the treaty:

http://www.ssa.gov/pressoffice/pr/USandMexico-pr.htm

SOCIAL SECURITY

News Release

United States and Mexico Sign Social Security Agreement

Agreement to Benefit U.S. Workers and Employers

(Printer friendly version)

Jo Anne Barnhart, Commissioner of Social Security, signed an agreement today with Dr. Santiago Levy Algazi, Director General, Mexican Social Security Institute, that will remove from U.S. citizens working for U.S. companies in Mexico the burden of paying social security taxes to both countries. The agreement also will remove the double taxation requirement for Mexican citizens working for Mexican companies in the United States. “This agreement eliminates a serious and unnecessary impediment to American and Mexican businesses and their employees,” Commissioner Barnhart stated. “Just as important, it promotes equity and fairness for workers who divide their careers between our two countries.”

Currently, U.S. companies that employ U.S. citizens in Mexico are required to contribute to both the U.S. and Mexican social security systems. When the agreement takes effect, U.S. and Mexican employers and their employees will contribute to either the U.S. or Mexican social security systems, but not both. This will result in approximately 3,000 U.S. workers and their employers sharing in tax savings of $140 million over the first five years of the agreement.

The agreement also will improve social security protection for people who work in both countries. At present, some workers who have divided their careers between the United States and Mexico fail to qualify for social security benefits from one or both countries because they do not meet minimum eligibility requirements. Under the agreement it will be possible for workers and their family members to qualify for pro-rated U.S. or Mexican benefits based on combined credits from both countries. This will result in approximately 50,000 U.S. and Mexican workers receiving benefits after the first five years of the agreement.

5 Legislative Days Left Until The AWB Expires

3 posted on 08/31/2004 3:21:02 PM PDT by Southack (Media Bias means that Castro won't be punished for Cuban war crimes against Black Angolans in Africa)
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To: TERMINATTOR
full U.S. Social Security benefits, paid out of your Social Security Trust Fund!

But but but, they worked hard in our country, so they deserve it. They're already paying into it, so the story goes. Never mind that the pitiance of money they accept as wages, when its NOT under the table, wouldn't pay for 18 months of SS, much less a damn lifetime retirement surfing in Baja!

No wonder SS is going broke. Where they hell are the Grey Panthers on this one?

Calling out the AARP!

4 posted on 08/31/2004 3:22:45 PM PDT by PeoplesRep_of_LA (The (Swift Boat vets for) Truth will set us free.)
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To: TERMINATTOR

What an outrage. Even Democrats should be outraged about it.


5 posted on 08/31/2004 3:27:23 PM PDT by Dante3
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To: TERMINATTOR

This situation is totally out of control. The baby boomers in this country, who have BEEN FORCED to pay obscene amounts of SS TAX, yes tax, into our system are getting the royal shaft. The Washington government is pandering to the Mexicans for what-- JUST THE MEXICAN VOTE??? -- WITH OUR HARD-EARNED MONEY. It's OUR money, not money for Mexican illegal aliens who have never paid a freakin' cent into our SS system.

Good God -- what is going on in Washington???


6 posted on 08/31/2004 3:28:47 PM PDT by EagleUSA
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To: Southack
That's not even close to being true about the treaty being valid for illegal aliens. It only applies to *legal* workers.

They'll only be illegal until Jorge Arbusto grants them amnesty, then voila! they're legal and eligble for SSI.

I guess it all depends on what the meaning of the word, "legal" is, doesn't it?

7 posted on 08/31/2004 3:34:55 PM PDT by Ol' Dan Tucker
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To: TERMINATTOR

Yup, need more illegal immigration, so we can have another amnesty, so they can claim Social Security that Americans won't claim.

/outragious/

Hoppy


8 posted on 08/31/2004 3:36:56 PM PDT by Hop A Long Cassidy
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To: Southack

One of Bush's campaign promises in the first election was that he was going to privatize Social Security. How is merging our program with a foreign country's own bankrupt plan going to privatize it? Was that just some sort of joke? Mexicans are shutting down their capitol over their own failed plan. They have plans to do that tomorrow --- have a big protest and shut down some streets and highways.


9 posted on 08/31/2004 3:42:48 PM PDT by FITZ
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To: Southack
Help stop plan to give Social Security to illegal aliens

What will the agreement cost? No one really knows. A GAO report from September of 2003 says that the SSA is wildly underestimating the costs of the Mexico agreement because its estimate does not factor in the more than 5 million Mexicans already living here illegally, and it assumes there will be no increase in illegal immigration after the agreement takes affect (though you can be sure that President Fox will be touting the deal from the mountaintops!) Joel Mowbray, a freelance writer who broke the story of the agreement last year in National Review, uses an estimate that the GAO says may be too high. Unfortunately, no one, including the GAO, has come up with a reliable estimate.

SSA's cost estimate: $78 million in 1st year, rising to $138 million in 5th year, and to $650 million in 2050.

Mobray's cost estimate: $345 BILLION over the next 20 years.

Here's an example Mowbray provided at the hearing to illustrate how the costs could add up:

"If a 24-year-old Mexican national who has worked illegally in the U.S. for 3 years is able to present documents from a doctor or a friendly doctor, as the case may be, and needed a W-2 or pay stubs indicating $12,000 in annual earnings, this individual would be eligible for the following: Nearly $8,000 per year in disability income adjusted for inflation until age 65 at which point he would receive the same amount as retirement pay. If he does manage to get a job under the table in the U.S. Or Mexico, he would be able to double dip for a second income stream, and if he is survived by his wife or dependents, his family would be able to receive up to $12,000 annually. If he dies at age 60 and his widow lives to age 85, U.S. Taxpayers would be on the hook for a total of a half million dollars. That is for one worker brought into the Social Security system under the totalization agreement after working in view in the United States illegally for 3 years."

Perhaps most telling though, is that the other 20 totalization agreements we have (the list of countries is on page 5 of the GAO report) produce a combined net gain to the U.S. of $600 million each year, according to SSA. There is a clear consensus that the Mexico agreement would result in an annual net loss to the U.S. The only question is how much of a loss. At a hearing on the issue before the House immigration subcommittee last fall, Rep. Sheila Jackson Lee stated that there were 3,000 U.S. citizens working in Mexico who would benefit under the agreement. The Census Bureau says that there were almost 8 million Mexican citizens (non-US citizens) living in the United States in 2002 and most of them were employed here. Obviously, the United States would get the raw end of the deal.

10 posted on 08/31/2004 3:44:40 PM PDT by TERMINATTOR (Don't blame me - I voted for McClintock!)
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To: Southack

Maybe you should contact the moderators and have them pull the thread, based on your information that this is a false claim.


11 posted on 08/31/2004 3:45:18 PM PDT by ravingnutter
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To: PeoplesRep_of_LA

Such poor timing of all this --- Mexicans protesting their Social Security ---- they can retire now in their 50's --- but Americans are being told by Greenspan that retirement age should go up to 75? Too much disparity in the plans --- we'll have Mexicans retiring in their early 50's while Americans go on working and working to pay them what they want.


12 posted on 08/31/2004 3:45:35 PM PDT by FITZ
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To: TERMINATTOR
"Help stop plan to give Social Security to illegal aliens"

Read the last paragraph of Post #3. The new treaty applies to 50,000 legal workers...not to 8 million illegal aliens.

5 Legislative Days Left Until The AWB Expires

13 posted on 08/31/2004 3:48:33 PM PDT by Southack (Media Bias means that Castro won't be punished for Cuban war crimes against Black Angolans in Africa)
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To: TERMINATTOR

btttttttt


14 posted on 08/31/2004 3:49:03 PM PDT by dennisw (Allah FUBAR!)
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To: Southack
It only applies to *legal* workers.

You might have missed the memo, but that nasty, ugly word "illegal" doesn't mean crap anymore. Ask Bush, Rove & Co.

15 posted on 08/31/2004 3:49:03 PM PDT by StoneColdGOP (Nothing is Bush's fault... Nothing is Bush's fault... Nothing is Bush's fault...)
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To: TERMINATTOR
I would encourage you to read the Treaty before comments. If I read it correctly, it means that American workers that work for an American company in Mexico will not have to pay both American SSI and Mexican SSI at the same time. Now they will pay into only one or the other and if the total meets the SSI requirements can get credit for SSI benefits. AND the same benefit is extended to Mexican workers that work in the US legally. Did anyone get a different take?
16 posted on 08/31/2004 3:50:45 PM PDT by Logical me (Oh, well!!!)
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To: StoneColdGOP; Luis Gonzalez
"You might have missed the memo, but that nasty, ugly word "illegal" doesn't mean crap anymore. Ask Bush, Rove & Co."

What an odd thing to say. The U.S. catches and deports 2,600 illegal aliens per day.

5 Legislative Days Left Until The AWB Expires

17 posted on 08/31/2004 3:51:08 PM PDT by Southack (Media Bias means that Castro won't be punished for Cuban war crimes against Black Angolans in Africa)
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To: TERMINATTOR

Pension reform moves ahead despite protests

http://www.eluniversal.com.mx/pls/impreso/noticia.html?id_nota=6102&tabla=miami

Mexicans have an over 70% unionization rate --- and the unions are threatening to shut things down because the last thing they want is Social Security reform --- why are our leaders discussing a merging of their plans with ours when these people don't want reforms made to their Socialist system? I guess by merging, they'll be able to do whatever protests against any reforms here too.


18 posted on 08/31/2004 3:51:35 PM PDT by FITZ
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To: TERMINATTOR

It will not and CANNOT HAPPEN!!!

My wife is Mexicana... went through hell to get her here legally... and she has TWO college degrees.

I think these guys are looking at the numbers to bail us out... really!!


19 posted on 08/31/2004 3:52:00 PM PDT by Mikey_1962
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To: Ol' Dan Tucker
They'll only be illegal until Jorge Arbusto grants them amnesty, then voila! they're legal and eligble for SSI. I guess it all depends on what the meaning of the word, "legal" is, doesn't it?

Bingo!

20 posted on 08/31/2004 3:53:14 PM PDT by Joe Hadenuf (I failed anger management class, they decided to give me a passing grade anyway)
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To: FITZ
"why are our leaders discussing a merging of their plans with ours"

See Post #3. The treaty simply eliminates the Mexican government's double taxation of *legal* Mexican workers in the U.S. and U.S. workers in Mexico.

5 Legislative Days Left Until The AWB Expires

21 posted on 08/31/2004 3:55:18 PM PDT by Southack (Media Bias means that Castro won't be punished for Cuban war crimes against Black Angolans in Africa)
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To: Southack

2600!!

Wow... That'll sure make a dent in the MILLIONS already here and the legions crossing over unchallenged every day!


22 posted on 08/31/2004 3:56:55 PM PDT by StoneColdGOP (Nothing is Bush's fault... Nothing is Bush's fault... Nothing is Bush's fault...)
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To: TERMINATTOR

spam?


23 posted on 08/31/2004 3:56:58 PM PDT by dalebert
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To: TERMINATTOR

Joel Mowbray (back to story)

January 11, 2003

Social Security Heading South of the Border

If top officials at the State Department and Social Security Administration have their way, up to $345 billion—or more—could be siphoned from the Social Security “trust fund” over the couple decades, mostly to pay benefits to Mexican citizens who worked illegally in the United States.

The ill-conceived plan was hatched as part of an accord currently being negotiated with Mexico to help align its social-security system with America’s. The U.S. already has similar agreements with 20 nations, mostly in Europe, known as Totalization Agreements. “Totalization” is government-speak for combining, or "totalizing", the Social Security taxes paid into America’s and a foreign country’s respective systems—which allows people who split their careers between two countries to get a harmonized retirement benefit from the two governments.

When media reports of the Mexico pact surfaced last month, the cost was pegged at hundreds of millions of dollars per year, to be paid out to roughly 37,000 Mexican citizens living legally in the U.S. But not mentioned is how the accord with Mexico, as now written, would differ from existing agreements in one key respect: illegal aliens from Mexico would also become eligible for Social Security benefits, which would force costs to skyrocket.

Under current law, people who worked illegally in the United States can only receive Social Security benefits based on taxes paid during that time by becoming citizens or permanent legal residents. Once living lawfully in the U.S., though, someone can receive benefits based on work performed while in the country illegally. The Totalization Agreement with Mexico, however, would make illegal aliens from that country eligible for the same treatment under Social Security as U.S. citizens—without ever becoming legal residents or citizens.

Although the press office from the Social Security Administration (SSA) cautions, “Discussions are still in the preliminary stages,” government sources familiar with the negotiations say that there has been agreement on most significant issues—including the expansion of eligibility for illegal aliens.

An internal SSA memo also indicates that the pact will allow illegal aliens to qualify for Social Security benefits: “Mexican nationals working illegally in the U.S. can currently become entitled to benefits if they have made payments to the Trust Fund that meet the vesting requirements. The Totalization Agreement would include this population of Mexican workers within the overall population of workers covered by this agreement.”

With anywhere from 7 to 11 million illegal aliens in the U.S.—the majority of whom are from Mexico—including illegals in the pact would cost many more billions of dollars per year. The best indicator of how much illegals would receive in benefits would be the amount they have paid in over the years. Since 1990, the amount of Social Security taxes paid into the Earnings Suspense File (ESF)—which consists mostly of sums contributed by illegal aliens—has been increasing rapidly, for a total of nearly $300 billion during that time span, according to SSA's own figures. (Like all government “trust funds,” there’s no money in the ESF, just an accounting of money.) In Social Security's entire history, some $345 billion in Social Security taxes have been paid under bogus or non-work Social Security numbers, the hallmark of taxes paid by illegal aliens.

Some argue that illegal aliens deserve benefits since they already pay Social Security taxes, the fact is that allowing illegals to tap into the entitlement—aside from rewarding illegal behavior—substantially undermine the financial ability to “pay” for a transition to personal account-based reform if the money that would have gone to the accounts is instead funneled to illegal aliens because of the Totalization Agreement.

Finals negotiations—which are overseen by State, but handled on the ground by technocrats from SSA—could be finalized next month, according to an internal SSA memo. And an internal State Department memo indicates that the accord could be implemented as early as this fall. Although the White House would no doubt love to shower Mexico with affection, officials there are not aware of the true size and scope of the agreement—nor is Congress, which has the final say.

A Totalization Agreement with Mexico similar to the others—meaning no inclusion of illegals—would actually be a wise move. Such a deal would allow Mexican citizens who play by the rules to take full advantage of Social Security taxes paid both here and south of the border. But as things stand right now, it is officials at State and SSA who are not playing by the rules—and Congress and the White House should not play along.


24 posted on 08/31/2004 3:57:17 PM PDT by dennisw (Allah FUBAR!)
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To: Logical me
If I read it correctly, it means that American workers that work for an American company in Mexico will not have to pay both American SSI and Mexican SSI at the same time. Now they will pay into only one or the other and if the total meets the SSI requirements can get credit for SSI benefits. AND the same benefit is extended to Mexican workers that work in the US legally.

Shhhhh, don't tell the reactionaries. They don't like reality getting in the way of a good tirade.

25 posted on 08/31/2004 3:57:29 PM PDT by COEXERJ145 (Hannity Was Right, FReepers Tend To Eat Their Own)
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To: ravingnutter
Considering the guest worker amnesty plan already in the works, I don't see how this isn't perfectly accurate. All those illegals are going to be legal soon anyway.
26 posted on 08/31/2004 3:58:01 PM PDT by NJ_gent (Conservatism begins at home. Security begins at the border. Please, someone, secure our borders.)
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To: Southack
What an odd thing to say. The U.S. catches and deports 2,600 illegal aliens per day...........


At the Mexican border not in the interior. You must know that, don't you? That 95% of so called deportations consist of kicking a Mexican back over to his side when he is caught within 50 miles of the Mexico border.
27 posted on 08/31/2004 3:59:56 PM PDT by dennisw (Allah FUBAR!)
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To: Southack
"What an odd thing to say. The U.S. catches and deports 2,600 illegal aliens per day."

Which isn't even a fraction of what's actually coming across daily. In addition, you're forgetting about the amnesty that's in the works. A whole lot of those illegals will soon be perfectly "legal".
28 posted on 08/31/2004 4:00:43 PM PDT by NJ_gent (Conservatism begins at home. Security begins at the border. Please, someone, secure our borders.)
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To: Southack
You might have missed the memo, but that nasty, ugly word "illegal" doesn't mean crap anymore. Ask Bush, Rove & Co."

What an odd thing to say. The U.S. catches and deports 2,600 illegal aliens per day.

Come on hack. Why are you pandering to these politicians that have no desire to stop this titanic invasion?

Let me ask you a simple question. We are being invaded by millions. It has created nothing but economic and social chaos in American, and only escalates and grows worse. Our so called leaders are completely ignororing the will of the people that want this lunacy stopped.

So here is my question: When was the last time President Bush got on prime time TV and voiced his outrage over this epic coast to coast lawlessness, invasion of millions, not to mention the national security time bomb, and demanded that new measures are implemented immediately, and steps are taken to stop this open border madness?

29 posted on 08/31/2004 4:01:28 PM PDT by Joe Hadenuf (I failed anger management class, they decided to give me a passing grade anyway)
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To: Southack
At present, some workers who have divided their careers between the United States and Mexico fail to qualify for social security benefits from one or both countries because they do not meet minimum eligibility requirements.

If a Mexican or anyone didn't work long enough to meet the eligibility requirements then they shouldn't receive a Social Security check. Right now if an American works here 2 years and then becomes a bum they don't qualify for a check, why should it be different for non-Americans?

30 posted on 08/31/2004 4:03:09 PM PDT by FITZ
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To: StoneColdGOP
"Wow... That'll sure make a dent in the MILLIONS already here and the legions crossing over unchallenged every day"

Yes, it has made a difference, but that's not what some people want to hear...

5 Legislative Days Left Until The AWB Expires

http://www.signonsandiego.com/news/mexico/tijuana/20040711-9999-lz1m11gatekpr.html

Once easy, illegally entering the U.S. here now a risky passage

By Anna Cearley
UNION-TRIBUNE

July 11, 2004


CHARLIE NEUMAN / Union-Tribune
Migrants waited near the San Ysidro crossing for a chance to slip over the border fence into the United States. Before Operation Gatekeeper, hundreds would gather here in what was "like a big party, with families saying good-bye to the migrants."
First in an occasional series.

TIJUANA – From the rim of the Tijuana River canal, a small group of migrants waited at what was once one of the most popular illegal crossing areas along the U.S.-Mexico border.

They stood just a block from a San Ysidro shopping center, sizing up the obstacles: a 12-foot-high fence, a camera, stadium-style lighting and a Border Patrol truck nosed up against the fence.

The scene was eerily quiet, not at all like the raucous party atmosphere 10 years ago when as many as a thousand people gathered along the canal each night to storm across the border, overwhelming an understaffed Border Patrol.

During the early 1990s, images of the border under siege in San Diego County touched off a political maelstrom, making illegal immigration a top national security concern. The U.S. government responded in October 1994 with Operation Gatekeeper, which brought rows of fencing, more Border Patrol agents and surveillance technology to the county.

OVERVIEW

Background: A decade ago, hundreds of people every night crossed illegally from Tijuana into San Diego County.

Illegal immigration became a national issue and spawned Operation Gatekeeper, which added cameras, more U.S. Border Patrol agents and rows of stout fencing in the county.

What changed: Gatekeeper has dramatically reduced the number of migrants crossing through San Diego County's urban areas, steering them into the mountains and deserts to the east. Imperial Beach and Tijuana neighborhoods near the border fence have become much calmer.

What hasn't changed: Nationwide, the number of illegal crossers has not declined, some experts say.

It started in the Imperial Beach area, a five-mile stretch – of the 2,000-mile border – that once logged about 13 percent of the nation's illegal immigrant crossings. Migrants now wait weeks or months to cross there.

The Operation Gatekeeper philosophy has thrived and spread along San Diego County's 66-mile border with Mexico and into adjacent Imperial County. It also has taken root along urban sections of the border in Texas and Arizona.

Critics and supporters agree the strategy has stemmed the flow of illegal immigration through San Diego County's urban areas. But human rights groups say it has come with a price: In the past decade, more people have crossed through desert and mountain areas where extreme temperatures have contributed to the deaths of several thousand migrants along the entire U.S.-Mexico border.

In fact, some immigration experts say, though crossings are down in Imperial Beach and other urban areas, the number of people who enter the United States illegally each year has not declined.


CHARLIE NEUMAN / Union-Tribune
Officer Jorge Pacheco of Grupo Beta, a Mexican federal agency that protects illegal immigrants, monitored the border just west of the San Ysidro crossing.
Today, as people wait to slip across the border in the San Diego area, they face a different kind of challenge: boredom.

"Before Operation Gatekeeper, people would arrive in Tijuana and they could be in San Diego in a few hours," said Victor Clark, a Tijuana-based human rights activist. "As the fence started to go up, that became 48 hours. Then it became a week or two. Now we see people waiting months – up to five months in some cases – to cross."

The people who come here often don't have enough money to pay a smuggler to take them through more-open routes to the east. They sometimes do odd jobs during the day and camp out into Tijuana night. Then they wait for a chance to cross when the Border Patrol agents change shifts or become distracted by another crosser.

Others have become old hands at crossing here. Twenty-nine-year-old Gregorio Carrillo, who was returning to work in Lakeside after attending a cousin's funeral in Baja California this year, claimed to have attempted 20 crossings from the Tijuana River canal during Operation Gatekeeper, 10 of those successfully. After each unsuccessful attempts, U.S. officers returned him to Tijuana, he said.

"People who come here from the interior of Mexico don't know the area and they will pay a person to help them get across, but I got to know how to do this from others," he said. "That, and some luck."

Carrillo's recurring border incursions reflect the persistence of illegal immigration, which to many San Diego County residents seemed to disappear once the fence went up and the people stopped rushing U.S. freeways.

A drop in arrests

The number of arrests along the border in San Diego County dropped from 531,689 in 1993 – the year before Operation Gatekeeper – to 100,681 in 2002, although it rose last year to 111,515. The arrests are one tool for monitoring illegal immigration flows, though they can be influenced by factors such as increased enforcement.

Along the five-mile border overseen by the Imperial Beach Border Patrol station, the arrests plummeted from 165,287 in 1993 to 10,218 in 2003.

Some estimates say there's three or four escapes for every arrest, though it's hard to say for sure. Clark, the human rights activist, estimates that 1 in 10 makes it to San Diego County.

Despite the nationwide efforts, the permanent illegal immigrant population in the United States is growing steadily at half a million a year, according to the Center for Immigration Studies.

As Operation Gatekeeper closed off traditional routes, Arizona became the center of illegal immigration. In the early 1990s, 40 percent of illegal immigrants went through the San Diego sector. Now, Arizona has the most used crossing points, and the San Diego sector accounts for about 10 percent of arrests.

"What we in the United States have developed is essentially a finger-in-the-dike approach to immigration control, and we are quickly running out of fingers," said Wayne Cornelius director of the Center for Comparative Immigration Studies at University of California San Diego.

Because it's harder for people to cross illegally into the United States, the past 10 years have been a boon to smugglers. The cost of a smuggler has gone from about $300 to get to Los Angeles before Gatekeeper started to about $2,000 now, Clark said.

"What Gatekeeper has demonstrated was that in order for it to work, we would need to do it across the entire border," said Peter Nunez, a former U.S. attorney in San Diego and immigration expert. "You also have to address the root causes of illegal immigration."

After the chaos

Before Operation Gatekeeper, hundreds of people would gather along the Tijuana River canal rim as entrepreneurs sold food and migrants set up cardboard shacks for shelter. Some people charged $1 to ferry migrants across the river during the rainy season.

"It was like a big party, with families saying goodbye to the migrants," Clark said.

There was a darker side to the gatherings. Thieves, smugglers and drug addicts preyed on the migrants. Fights broke out, and they sometimes ended in deaths. The chaos spilled into nearby U.S. neighborhoods as migrants and smugglers were accused of stealing from homes and vandalizing properties.

Then the fencing went up, and the mass gatherings ended.

Many of Tijuana's cheap downtown hotels and other snack shops that had catered to the migrant community went out of business. In Imperial Beach, fewer migrants crashed through people's back yards.

Mario Lopez, who works with a Mexican federal agency called Grupo Beta that protects illegal immigrants from human rights abuses, said that now he runs into between five and a dozen migrants at a time along the canal zone. Popular staging grounds near the beach and to the east of the San Ysidro port have also seen declines.

"The flow of migration here used to be very large and now it's more controlled, but it doesn't mean the problem has been solved," he said.

Over the years, annual arrests registered by the Border Patrol's Campo station in eastern San Diego County rose from 4,549 before Operation Gatekeeper in 1993 to 85,893 in 1997. After more agents were sent into the area, the arrests dropped to 34,923 in 2003.

U.S. Border Patrol officials say the fences have been particularly effective in keeping people out.

The fencing in the San Diego sector includes 44 miles of what is known as "primary fencing," made of 10-to 15-foot-tall corrugated metal. An additional steel fence extends eight miles east of the San Ysidro border crossing, and a concrete pillar fence extends to a point about a mile west of the port of entry.

Conflicts with environmental agencies have prevented an additional five miles of the concrete barrier from being erected along the westernmost part of the border.

Tough crossing

The number of Border Patrol agents assigned to the San Diego sector has doubled to about 2,000 under Gatekeeper. But even with increased patrols and imposing barriers, people find ways to get across.

They prop up ladders and try to climb over the fence before anyone spots them. Others use ropes to hoist themselves over the top, or shimmy up the 12-foot-tall concrete pillars. Along the section where Carrillo, who was returning from the funeral, was waiting, migrants crawl onto a brick wall on the Mexican side that offers a place to leap over the fence.

As Carrillo waited near the urban zone, another group of migrants heated tortillas over a makeshift stove in a more isolated area along the border to the west called Ca×on del Muerto.

Julian Cervantes, 37, had been waiting there for six days to slip past a part of the primary fence that ends at a ravine, near where environmental issues have prevented the construction of a larger fence. He said that he was returning to his home in North Park.

"We are closer here and so if they catch us, we can come back here quickly," said Cervantes, who works in construction to support his family in Guadalajara.

Farther down the ravine, candlelight flickered from a small shrine that migrants had created along another section of the primary fence. Several migrants there said they had been waiting a week to avoid the Border Patrol trucks hidden in the darkness.

Back toward the San Ysidro port of entry, Carrillo said he once crossed through a mountainous region east of Tecate, but this time decided to take his chances in Tijuana.

"You have to work harder to get across there, and there are snakes," he said. "It's more dangerous."

After Carrillo scrambled over the fence, he said he would change into clean clothes. Then the seasoned illegal border crosser said he would take the trolley north and call for someone to pick him up.

"A person who wants to cross will find the way," he said.

Anna Cearley: (619) 542-4595; anna.cearley@uniontrib.com


31 posted on 08/31/2004 4:04:32 PM PDT by Southack (Media Bias means that Castro won't be punished for Cuban war crimes against Black Angolans in Africa)
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To: NJ_gent

It's like that democrat plan (maybe republican too) where an illegal only has to say they lived here 5 years and worked here at least 2 years to get amnesty -- and then by having worked here 2 years they are entitled to a full Social Security handout.


32 posted on 08/31/2004 4:04:35 PM PDT by FITZ
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To: Joe Hadenuf; NJ_gent; dennisw

c#31


33 posted on 08/31/2004 4:06:38 PM PDT by Southack (Media Bias means that Castro won't be punished for Cuban war crimes against Black Angolans in Africa)
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To: dennisw

And 100% of that 95% come right back over. They actually like to be taken back right away --- sitting around waiting for a hearing isn't good --- then they can get busy getting it right.


34 posted on 08/31/2004 4:07:52 PM PDT by FITZ
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To: FITZ
"If a Mexican or anyone didn't work long enough to meet the eligibility requirements then they shouldn't receive a Social Security check. Right now if an American works here 2 years and then becomes a bum they don't qualify for a check, why should it be different for non-Americans?"

It's not, that's just an easy way to misread the treaty. See post #3. All that is going on is that legal workers are getting retirement credit for contributing, whether they are working in Mexico or the U.S...and they are no longer being double-taxed for working in another country.

5 Legislative Days Left Until The AWB Expires

35 posted on 08/31/2004 4:08:34 PM PDT by Southack (Media Bias means that Castro won't be punished for Cuban war crimes against Black Angolans in Africa)
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To: Southack

Answer the question hack.


36 posted on 08/31/2004 4:09:40 PM PDT by Joe Hadenuf (I failed anger management class, they decided to give me a passing grade anyway)
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To: Southack

So here is my question: When was the last time President Bush got on prime time TV and voiced his outrage over this epic coast to coast lawlessness, invasion of millions, not to mention the national security time bomb, and demanded that new measures are implemented immediately, and steps are taken to stop this open border madness?


37 posted on 08/31/2004 4:10:18 PM PDT by Joe Hadenuf (I failed anger management class, they decided to give me a passing grade anyway)
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To: TERMINATTOR

Pure treason.


38 posted on 08/31/2004 4:12:05 PM PDT by MegaSilver
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To: Joe Hadenuf
"When was the last time President Bush got on prime time TV and voiced his outrage over this epic coast to coast lawlessness, invasion of millions, not to mention the national security time bomb, and demanded that new measures are implemented immediately, and steps are taken to stop this open border madness?"

September 20, 2001. After that speech, the U.S. erected a 15 foot tall steel fence on the border from the Pacific into Arizona (see post #31), re-organized the INS, and substantially increased border patrol staffing and patrolling and raids.

5 Legislative Days Left Until The AWB Expires

39 posted on 08/31/2004 4:12:24 PM PDT by Southack (Media Bias means that Castro won't be punished for Cuban war crimes against Black Angolans in Africa)
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To: Southack
Read the last paragraph of Post #3. The new treaty applies to 50,000 legal workers...not to 8 million illegal aliens.

Read the not-Amnesty plan that Bush said he wants for "workers"

All 8 million, or 10 million, or 30 million that will poar over the border will have double the incentive to do so because of moronic legislation like this. Course "we" want more illegals to come over the border, because "we" are Cheap Labor Republicans.

Can't get enough of em!

40 posted on 08/31/2004 4:13:53 PM PDT by PeoplesRep_of_LA (The (Swift Boat vets for) Truth will set us free.)
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To: Southack
"A person who wants to cross will find the way,"

Exactly. Doesn't matter if it's "tougher" or more "risky". They'll still find way to break into this country by the thousands.

And Bush is doing nothing about it. Those few Border Patrol sweeps we had months ago were a great (if superficial) start, but were sadly stamped out when Bush and the Hispanderers started getting heat from the illegal alien activists.

41 posted on 08/31/2004 4:14:19 PM PDT by StoneColdGOP (Nothing is Bush's fault... Nothing is Bush's fault... Nothing is Bush's fault...)
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To: FITZ
And 100% of that 95% come right back over. They actually like to be taken back right away --- sitting around waiting for a hearing isn't good --- then they can get busy getting it right.......

Recently some Hispanic activists (pests) and immigration attorneys (mega-pests) have been trying to get these Mexicans to clog up the court system by contesting deportation. To not take the easy way out to Mexico and try again.
42 posted on 08/31/2004 4:15:43 PM PDT by dennisw (Allah FUBAR!)
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To: Joe Hadenuf

Only in Bizarro World...


43 posted on 08/31/2004 4:15:55 PM PDT by StoneColdGOP (Nothing is Bush's fault... Nothing is Bush's fault... Nothing is Bush's fault...)
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To: Southack

Pretty weak hack.


44 posted on 08/31/2004 4:16:25 PM PDT by Joe Hadenuf (I failed anger management class, they decided to give me a passing grade anyway)
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To: PeoplesRep_of_LA
"Read the not-Amnesty plan that Bush said he wants for "workers"

Bush's immigration plan offers bait for every currently-anonymous illegal alien to come in from the cold and *register* with the federal government, as well as registering their home, their U.S. employer, and their family. If you've ever been remotely involved with law enforcement, you know two things about registration:

1. It is easier to ban something (such as guns) once it is registered, and
2. It takes fewer LEO resources to track down someone who is known versus someone who is anonymous. In a time when we have over 8 million anonymous illegals, those resources matter.

After registering with the federal government, Bush's plan forces each illegal alien to pay a fine for being here illegally.

One could consider it to be a giant plea bargain.

In return for registering and paying that fine, they get new blue cards. The blue cards allow them to remain in the U.S. for three years, legally, so long as they remain employed, pay taxes, and stay out of any legal trouble.

To get a renewed blue card after 3 years, they have to return to their home countries in order to apply. This sends millions back to their home countries voluntarily, preventing the need to have a forced military round up larger than the one last seen in Europe from 1937 to 1945 (6 million +).

Frankly, I've heard of worse plans. It's a plea bargain, not an amnesty (you don't pay fines for amnesties), and it gets anonymous illegals registered, as well as gives them incentives to finally stay out of trouble with the law.

So this plan doesn't have me flailing my arms over my head while screaming that the sky is falling.

5 Legislative Days Left Until The AWB Expires

45 posted on 08/31/2004 4:16:28 PM PDT by Southack (Media Bias means that Castro won't be punished for Cuban war crimes against Black Angolans in Africa)
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To: Southack
I'm sorry, I'm not really seeing how a 10 year old slight increase in border security over a limited area has anything to do with giving amnesty to those who do continue crossing the border en masse.
46 posted on 08/31/2004 4:16:28 PM PDT by NJ_gent (Conservatism begins at home. Security begins at the border. Please, someone, secure our borders.)
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To: Southack

Here's what Ron Paul of Texas has to say about it:

Return of the Great Social Security Giveaway

http://www.house.gov/paul/tst/tst2004/tst010504.htm


47 posted on 08/31/2004 4:16:54 PM PDT by FITZ
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To: Southack

Here's what Ron Paul of Texas has to say about it:

Return of the Great Social Security Giveaway

http://www.house.gov/paul/tst/tst2004/tst010504.htm


48 posted on 08/31/2004 4:16:59 PM PDT by FITZ
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To: StoneColdGOP
"And Bush is doing nothing about it. Those few Border Patrol sweeps we had months ago were a great (if superficial) start, but were sadly stamped out when Bush and the Hispanderers started getting heat from the illegal alien activists."

Not at all. See post #39.

5 Legislative Days Left Until The AWB Expires

49 posted on 08/31/2004 4:17:40 PM PDT by Southack (Media Bias means that Castro won't be punished for Cuban war crimes against Black Angolans in Africa)
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To: ravingnutter
Maybe you should contact the moderators and have them pull the thread, based on your information that this is a false claim.

He quotes a government website that doesn't mention anything about what this article by the agents talks about, and you are prepared to censor the thread?

You Cheap Labor types are getting hysterical.

50 posted on 08/31/2004 4:17:45 PM PDT by PeoplesRep_of_LA (The (Swift Boat vets for) Truth will set us free.)
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