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Speech: Shaken President Putin: "We showed weakness, and weak people are beaten."
My Way News ^ | Sep 4, 8:21 PM (ET) | By MIKE ECKEL

Posted on 09/05/2004 1:16:11 AM PDT by N. Beaujon

BESLAN, Russia (AP) - A shaken President Vladimir Putin made a rare and candid admission of Russian weakness Saturday in the face of an "all-out war" by terrorists after more than 340 people - nearly half of them children - were killed in a hostage-taking at a southern school.

Putin went on national television to tell Russians they must mobilize against terrorism. He promised wide-ranging reforms to toughen security forces and purge corruption.

"We showed weakness, and weak people are beaten," he said in a speech aimed at addressing the grief, shock and anger felt by many after a string of attacks that have killed some 450 people in the past two weeks, apparently in connection with the war in Chechnya.

Shocked relatives wandered among row after row of bodies lined up in black or clear plastic body bags on the pavement at a morgue in Vladikavkaz, the capital of North Ossetia, where the dead from the school standoff in the town of Beslan were taken. In some open bags lay the contorted, thin bodies of children, some monstrously charred.

In Beslan, people scoured lists of names to see if their loved ones survived the chaos of the day before, when the standoff turned violent Friday as militants set off explosives in the school and commandos moved in to seize the building.

Beslan residents were allowed to enter the burned-out husk that was once the gymnasium of School No. 1, where more than 1,000 hostages were held during the 62-hour ordeal that started Wednesday. The gym's roof was destroyed, windows shattered, walls pocked with bullet holes.

Regional Emergency Situations Minister Boris Dzgoyev said 323 people, including 156 children, were killed. More than 540 people were wounded - mostly children. Medical officials said 448 people, including 248 children, remained hospitalized Saturday evening.

Dzgoyev also said 35 attackers - heavily-armed and explosive-laden men and women reportedly demanding independence for the Chechen republic - were killed in 10 hours of battles that shook the area around the school with gunfire and explosions.

Putin made a quick visit to the town before dawn Saturday, meeting local officials and touring a hospital to speak with wounded. He stopped to stroke the head of an injured child.

But some in the region were unimpressed, as grief turned to anger, both at the militants and the government response.

Marat Avsarayev, a 44-year-old taxi driver in Vladikavkaz, questioned why Putin and other politicians didn't "even think about fulfilling the (militants') demands to save the lives of the children. Probably because it wasn't their children here."

During his visit to Beslan, Putin stressed that security officials had not planned to storm the school - trying to fend off potential criticism that the government side provoked the bloodshed. He ordered the region's borders closed while officials searched for anyone connected to the attack.

"What happened was a terrorist act that was inhuman and unprecedented in its cruelty," Putin said in his televised speech later. "It is a challenge not to the president, the parliament and the government but a challenge to all of Russia, to all of our people. It is an attack on our nation."

Including the school disaster, more than 450 people have been killed in the past two weeks in violence. Two planes crashed nearly simultaneously on Aug. 24, killing 90 people, and a suicide bomber killed eight people in Moscow on Tuesday. Chechen separatists are suspected in both attacks.

Putin took a defiant tone, acknowledging Russia's weaknesses but blaming it on the fall of the Soviet Union, foreign foes seeking to tear apart Russia and on corrupt officials. He said Russians could no longer live "carefree" and must all confront terrorism.

Measures would be taken, Putin promised, to overhaul the law enforcement organs, which he acknowledged had been infected by corruption, and tighten borders.

"We are obliged to create a much more effective security system and to demand action from our law enforcement organs that would be adequate to the level and scale of the new threats," he said.

An unidentified intelligence official was quoted by the ITAR-Tass news agency as saying the school assault was financed by Abu Omar As-Seyf, an Arab who allegedly represents al-Qaida in Chechnya, and masterminded by Chechen rebel leader Shamil Basayev.

Also, the Federal Security Service chief in North Ossetia, Valery Andreyev, said Saturday that investigators were looking into whether militants had smuggled explosives and weapons into the school and hid them during a renovation this summer.

It was still unclear exactly how the standoff fell apart into bloodshed at 1 p.m. on Friday. Officials say security forces were forced to act when hostage-takers set off explosives. But some questioned that version.

The militants seized the school on the first day of classes Wednesday, herding hundreds of children, parents who had been dropping their kids off, and other adults into the gymnasium, which the militants promptly wired with explosives - including bombs hanging from the basketball hoops. The packed gym became sweltering, and the hostage-takers refused to allow in food or water.

One survivor, Sima Albegova, told the Kommersant newspaper she asked the militants why the captives were taken. "Because you vote for your Putin," one militant told her, she said.

Another freed hostage said a militant told her, "If Putin doesn't withdraw forces from Chechnya and doesn't free our arrested brothers, we'll blow everything up," according to the Moskovsky Komsomolets newspaper.

Russian officials said the violence began when explosions were apparently set off by the militants - possibly by accident - as emergency workers entered the school courtyard to collect the bodies of hostages killed in the initial raid Wednesday.

Diana Gadzhinova, 14, said the militants ordered her and other hostages to lie face down in the gymnasium as the bodies were collected.

"They told us that there were going to be talks," she was quoted as telling Iszvestia. Others also told of how militants appeared to be confused and surprised at the initial explosions.

Hostages fled during the blasts, and the militants shot at them, prompting security forces to open fire and commandos to move in, officials said.

The explosions tore through the roof of the gymnasium, sending wreckage down on hostages and killing many. Many survivors emerged naked, covered in ashes and soot, their feet bloody from jumping barefoot out of broken windows to escape.

With families gathering for wakes for the dead Saturday, some were vowing vengeance.

"Fathers will bury their children, and after 40 days (the Orthodox mourning period) ... they will take up weapons and seek revenge," said Alan Kargiyev, a 20-year-old university student in Vladikavkaz.


TOPICS: Foreign Affairs; Front Page News; News/Current Events; Russia; War on Terror
KEYWORDS: chechan; chechnya; fascists; islamo; islamonuts; ossetia; putin; retribution; speech; vladimir
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To: N. Beaujon

I do NOT have faith in the Russian ability to show strength. I absolutely hope I am wrong, but I think they are too drunk, too corrupt, and too disorganized. I pity the Russian children. Their parents are a bunch of losers.


51 posted on 09/05/2004 4:47:41 AM PDT by samtheman (www.georgewbush.com)
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To: fortheDeclaration

fTD,

Where have you been?

Good to hear from you. Are you no longer visiting the religion threads?


52 posted on 09/05/2004 4:51:49 AM PDT by xzins (Retired Army and Supporting Bush/Cheney 2004!)
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To: N. Beaujon
"We showed weakness, and weak people are beaten," he said in a speech aimed at addressing the grief, shock and anger felt by many after a string of attacks that have killed some 450 people in the past two weeks, apparently in connection with the war in Chechnya.

Meanwhile, Kerry wants a more "sensitive", "nuanced" war on terrorism.

53 posted on 09/05/2004 4:54:50 AM PDT by RogueIsland
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To: fortheDeclaration

Actually, the Russians offered to release some terrorists from prison. Then the terrorists asked for all Russian troups to get out of Chechnya.

I agree these terrorists mainly want to kill. I do disagree that Islam teaches to kill the infidel any time.

I am sure something like this is in the Koran, but Christians and Jews aren't considered infidels. Also, all religions if you take some of their teachings too literally can lead to terrorism. Wahabbi Islam teaches that the religion allows terror. Other Muslims disagree with this.

The scary thing is that once everyone starts classing every muslim as the "enemy" we are doing what the Wahabbis do.

The KKK were terrorists. Christians that bomb abortion clinics are terrorists. Irish Cahtolics and Protestants are terrorists.

Just because the current terrorists are using Islam to justify themselves doesn't mean we should all do likewise.
That's not any different that the communist call for "class warfare."

Bush is fighting terrorism with the FBI, CIA, police, homeland security, foreign friends. That's the way to go.

I do think that schools should have a better plan than "lockdown." Maybe the kids should be told to run for it.





54 posted on 09/05/2004 4:56:40 AM PDT by Snapple
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To: Snapple

"The Chechens do not all support these extremists"

Balony! If the Chechens do not support these Arabs coming in then THEY need to take care of them
But because they are fellow Muslims they accept their depravity
The Chechens can fight the Russians but not the Arabs coming in to 'help' them?
The only way I would believe this if the Chechens began waging a war against the Arabs in their midst.
As for a 'genocidal war' erupting, what do you consider killing children is?
No, this is more, 'we can't overreact' nonsense, which is exactly what the Muslims want.
They support the Arabs who did this thus they are as responsible for it.
You are for us or the terrorists.
As for the prisoner being killed by the citizens, so what!
The SOB probably figured he would get the EU to come and beg for his worthless life, or some other terror group would take more hostages to free their 'noble warriors'
These are the same people who take to the streets when one of their worthless Mosques are in danger (it is alright for them to use the Mosques to fire out of but we cannot shoot in)


55 posted on 09/05/2004 4:57:51 AM PDT by fortheDeclaration
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To: fortheDeclaration

Most Chechens are just worn out. You say the Chechens should handle it. Chechnya is ruled by Russia. The Russians want it that way so they have to handle it. they are the authorities.

The politics of that area is very complicated. The Chechens were deported by Stalin and returned later.

They have several groups that don't like Russian control but not all are these kind of terrorists.

Many Chechens don't like the Russians but could accept Russian rule if they had some control over their lives.They don't necessarily want to be ruled by terrorists.

It is very complicated. You can read some of the different Chechen perspectives at www.rferl.org They have articles about this.


56 posted on 09/05/2004 5:05:45 AM PDT by Snapple
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To: fortheDeclaration

http://www.rferl.org/featuresarticle/2004/09/fb44e811-3fc5-4969-acaa-0e0872d7a80b.html

Here is some background on Chechnya. The main site is www.rferl.org

It is Radio Free Europe Radio Liberty.


57 posted on 09/05/2004 5:11:16 AM PDT by Snapple
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To: RonnG

Sounds like a plan.


58 posted on 09/05/2004 5:18:43 AM PDT by marty60
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To: fortheDeclaration

The Russians seem to deliberately tar all Chechens with the Al Qaeda brush. The Russian security says there wer 10 Arabs in the school. People in the town dispute this.
If you have a chance check the info at www.rferl.org

"Even before the 3 September bloodbath, Western press commentaries were arguing that the sole hope for ending the war in Chechnya lies in beginning negotiations with Chechen President Aslan Maskhadov, seen as representing the moderate wing of the Chechen resistance. But Putin's previous conflation of Maskhadov with terrorism and Al-Qaeda suggests the likelihood he would condone any such talks is remote. On 4 September, chechenpress.info reported that the FSB cordoned off the homes in Znamenskoe the previous day, and then arrested the elderly father of Maskhadov's wife Kusama, together with her sister and two brothers and their families, including small children."
http://www.rferl.org/featuresarticle/2004/09/fb44e811-3fc5-4969-acaa-0e0872d7a80b.html


59 posted on 09/05/2004 5:20:44 AM PDT by Snapple
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To: fortheDeclaration

The Russians wouldn't let a RFERL reporter to to Beslan.


http://www.rferl.org/releases/2004/09/265-020904.asp
RFE/RL's Babitsky Arrested At Moscow Airport Trying To Reach Site Of North Ossetia Hostage Standoff


(Prague, Czech Republic--September 2, 2004) RFE/RL Russian Service Correspondent Andrei Babitsky was harassed and detained today by police at Vnukovo Airport in Moscow, where he was attempting to fly to southern Russia to cover the ongoing hostage standoff at a school in Beslan, North Ossetia. Babitsky, who in January 2000 was abducted by Russian security officials and held incommunicado for 40 days because of his coverage of the war in Chechnya, has been released, but is due before a local magistrate tomorrow morning (September 3).

Babitsky was first detained at Vnukovo Airport while trying to board a flight from Moscow to the southern Russian city of Mineralnye Vody, from where he planned to continue on to Beslan. Police at the airport accused Babitsky of carrying explosives in his bag. After police searched the bag and found no explosives, Babitsky was released and continued on to await his flight.

While waiting to board the flight, Babitsky was approached by two young men who attempted to provoke a fight with him. Police arrested all three men, took them to the airport police station and then to a medical clinic, where Babitsky was subjected to blood tests on suspicion that he was drunk. Babitsky was eventually joined at the airport police station by his lawyer, who accompanied Babitsky to a local magistrate's office, where he was released pending resolution of his case.

Babitsky is not the only journalist to be harassed while attempting to travel to North Ossetia this week. Babitsky was to be accompanied on his flight to Mineralnye Vody by AFP correspondent Yana Dlugy, who was also stopped on suspicion of carrying explosives and as a result missed the flight. In addition, well-known Russian journalist Anna Politkovskaya became seriously ill yesterday during a flight from Moscow to Rostov na Donu, from where she intended to go on to Beslan for her newspaper, "Novaya Gazeta." It is suspected that Politkovskaya, who is currently hospitalized in Rostov in serious, but stable condition, was poisoned during the flight.

Babitsky, an award-winning correspondent for RFE/RL's Russian Service, was abducted in January 2000 by Russian officials after complaining about his reporting on the war in Chechnya--reporting that was praised internationally as balanced and objective. Those officials then claimed to have exchanged Babitsky for several Russian prisoners of war -- an exchange that Babitsky said never took place. Russian officials released Babitsky after 40 days in detention, after planting false documents on him. It is these documents which formed the basis of charges of violating Russian passport regulations that were brought against Babitsky. During judicial proceedings, Babitsky was released on his own recognizance but restricted to Moscow until August 2000. Babitsky now lives and works in Prague.


Radio Free Europe/Radio Liberty is a private, international communications service to Eastern and Southeastern Europe, Russia, the Caucasus, Central Asia, the Middle East, and Southwest Asia, funded by the U.S. Congress through the Broadcasting Board of Governors.




60 posted on 09/05/2004 5:26:01 AM PDT by Snapple
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To: Snapple

"I am sure something like this is in the Koran, but Christians and Jews aren't considered infidels"

They aren't?
Every non-muslim is considered an infidel
You see what they did to the Nepalise because they were Buddhist?
I am not saying all Muslims are bad people
Most do not adhere to the tenets found in the Koran
Yet, Islam is a bad religion that does teach that it is alright to kill in the name of spreading Islam.
No other religion teaches anything compatable.

Below is from the Koran
"And kill them wherever you find them...and fight them until there is no more 'finah'(disbelief and worshipping of others along with Allah"
Sura 2:190, 193
Verily, those who disbelieve in Allah and His Messengers and wish to make distinction between Allah and His messengers (by believing in Allah and disbelieving in His messengers) saying 'we believe in some but reject others' and wish to adopt a way in between.
They are in truth disbelievers. We have prepared for the disbelievers a humiliating torment
Sura 5:150-151


61 posted on 09/05/2004 5:32:43 AM PDT by fortheDeclaration
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To: fortheDeclaration

Traditional Muslims consider Christians and Jews to be people of the book, not infidels. Infidels were originally the pagans in the area I think.

The Wahabbis interprete the Muslim tests differently than the normal Muslims do.


62 posted on 09/05/2004 5:53:14 AM PDT by Snapple
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To: Snapple

"Traditional Muslims consider Christians and Jews to be people of the book, not infidels. Infidels were originally the pagans in the area I think."

No, an infidel is anyone who does not believe that Muhammad is God's prophet and worship Allah alone.
You are a 'disbeliever'

"O you believe! Take not the Jew and the Christians as "Auliya' (friends, protectors, helpers), they are but 'Auliya' of each other.And if any amongst you takes them (as Auliya), then surely he is one of them. Verily, Allah guides not those people who are "Zalmun"(Polytheists and wrong-doers and unjust)

In other words Jews and Christians.
Yes, the Koran calls Jews and Christians 'people of the scriptures' but that does not make them any less 'infidels' since they reject the additional revelation of Islam.

"Whosoever disbelieves in "Taghut' and believes in Allah, then he has grasped the most trustworthy handhold that will never break"
What is 'Taghut'?
"The word 'Taghut' covers a wide range of meanngs. It means anything worshipped other then the Real God (Allah), i.e. all the false deites. It may be Satan, devils, idols, stones sun, stars, angels human beings e.g. Messengers of Allah, who were falsely worshipped and taken as 'Taghut'
(Surah 2:256 footnote 11)
Thus, you see that Christians (who believe Jesus Christ is God Incarnate and worship Him as such) are lumped together with pagan worship.
Don't buy into the media/scholar propaganda about 'moderate' Islam
Islam is only 'quiet' when it knows it cannot defeat the 'infidel'.


"The Wahabbis interprete the Muslim tests differently than the normal Muslims do."
The Wahabbis are taking the Koran at what it says.
We should do likewise.





63 posted on 09/05/2004 6:30:12 AM PDT by fortheDeclaration
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To: N. Beaujon

Welcome to the party - better late than never. Hope the French and Democrats are listening.


64 posted on 09/05/2004 6:31:00 AM PDT by joonbug
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To: fortheDeclaration

I am going to let the government go after the terrorists not all Muslims.

I don't believe in class warfare.

I repeat that normal Muslims don't consider Christians and Jews infidels. During Mohamed's time, the infidels were the pagans of the area.


65 posted on 09/05/2004 6:47:13 AM PDT by Snapple
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To: N. Beaujon
"We showed weakness, and weak people are beaten,"


I think a strong response to the terrorist murderers of innocents is coming and will shock the insensitive and brutal leftist "peace loving democrat pretender's" of America; Russia is not "politically correct" in dealing with murderers.
66 posted on 09/05/2004 7:01:09 AM PDT by wgeorge2001 (For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.)
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To: N. Beaujon; wideminded; flaglady47
I have no idea what motivates Putin other than this was an affront to his manhood.

It could be turned the other way too: I have no idea what motivates you other than pure self-absorbsion. If you can't read the emotions of the Ruskies DON'T confuse them with your own. The truth is - the guy was in SEVERE PAIN. Calling him a sociopath, while keeping silent on horrific events and their perpetrators, amounts to viciousness.
67 posted on 09/05/2004 7:08:02 AM PDT by silversky (Thinking is unthinkable to the Demoncrats. Like everything else.)
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To: N. Beaujon

bttt


68 posted on 09/05/2004 7:08:47 AM PDT by ohioconservative
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To: OldFriend
Putin being former KGB gives insight into a bully. When he had a secret organization around him he seemed strong.

The KGB has never been around Putin. He was a mere operative there. He WILL have a secret organization around him. That's what his speech was about. If you want an explanation why, read this
http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/1207663/posts
69 posted on 09/05/2004 7:15:47 AM PDT by silversky (Thinking is unthinkable to the Demoncrats. Like everything else.)
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To: EQAndyBuzz

If you are right, Putin has only three choices: Mokaa, Mad-ina or both. Which one do you pick? Or rather, which one would GW pick?


70 posted on 09/05/2004 7:19:25 AM PDT by silversky (Thinking is unthinkable to the Demoncrats. Like everything else.)
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To: Snapple
I repeat that normal Muslims don't consider Christians and Jews infidels. During Mohamed's time, the infidels were the pagans of the area.

You are right to an extend. The other side is that Islam has a week immune system. Abnormality is too easy to surface. That's nothing new. A secular government is a well known cure (and the only one I know). It beats me, why the source of the Wahhabi evil is never pointed out. Drag them to the spotlight for crying out loud.
71 posted on 09/05/2004 7:30:39 AM PDT by silversky (Thinking is unthinkable to the Demoncrats. Like everything else.)
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To: Snapple; Destro; fortheDeclaration
It's too late for Chechnya. They had their chances for independence. Many times. The Russian have no choice but to administer the medicine themselves. We know the "we are going to be good tomorrow" story very well. Yasir repeats it every day.
72 posted on 09/05/2004 7:39:12 AM PDT by silversky (Thinking is unthinkable to the Demoncrats. Like everything else.)
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To: N. Beaujon
Marat Avsarayev, a 44-year-old taxi driver in Vladikavkaz, questioned why Putin and other politicians didn't "even think about fulfilling the (militants') demands to save the lives of the children. Probably because it wasn't their children here."

Wow, they have Democrats in Russia, too. :p
73 posted on 09/05/2004 7:49:56 AM PDT by adam_az (Call your State GOP office and volunteer!)
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To: wideminded

"The thing I noticed in the various pictures of Putin visiting the survivors in the hospital is that he didn't show any emotion at all."

Russians have different cultural expectations of how people act in that kind of situation than we do.


74 posted on 09/05/2004 7:52:01 AM PDT by adam_az (Call your State GOP office and volunteer!)
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To: MarMema

"We never disregard this important time in the church. There are services all along from 3 days to 40 days. It would be completely inappropriate to seek revenge during this time."

Then the following 40 day periods will add up to years, and more will die.

Duh.


75 posted on 09/05/2004 8:00:47 AM PDT by adam_az (Call your State GOP office and volunteer!)
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To: adam_az

You know...I feel as though the events of the past year or so have been dedicated to smearing Bush and proving him wrong via books, movies, grandstanding at the 9/11 commissions, and a slew of negative news out of Iraq, etc. etc. But in the past two weeks or so, it seems as though all of the critics are slowly but surely being silenced and having to put their foot in their mouth. It really makes me happy to see Bush starting to get some of the credit and respect that he has deserved over the past year or so. Things are going well guys!!


76 posted on 09/05/2004 8:02:44 AM PDT by MetroDome27
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To: silversky
It could be turned the other way too: I have no idea what motivates you other than pure self-absorbsion. If you can't read the emotions of the Ruskies DON'T confuse them with your own. The truth is - the guy was in SEVERE PAIN. Calling him a sociopath, while keeping silent on horrific events and their perpetrators, amounts to viciousness.

Noticed how as it was after 911, the focus and critiquing is on Putin, not the terrorists, who they are and what can be done to eradicate them.

77 posted on 09/05/2004 8:40:56 AM PDT by Lijahsbubbe
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To: MarMema
"There are services all along from 3 days to 40 days. It would be completely inappropriate to seek revenge during this time."

But what if (God Forbid) They attacked every 39 days?

I pray that Russia can keep this from happening again, and for the parents who lost their children. Very, Very sad.

78 posted on 09/05/2004 9:11:21 AM PDT by No Blue States
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To: N. Beaujon

Very, very sad!!! We need to help them fight this if they want our help.


79 posted on 09/05/2004 9:24:29 AM PDT by The Ghost of FReepers Past (Legislatures are so outdated. If you want real political victory, take your issue to court.)
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To: Snapple

"Fight against those (4) ...who acknowledge not the religion of truth (i.e. Islam) among the people of scripture (Jews and Christians), until they pay the "Jizyah" with willing submissions and feel themselves subdued (Surah 9:29)

What you believe or don't believe is unimportant to the fact of what the Koran teaches.
Islam is at war with Christianity and every other faith and has been since its inception.


80 posted on 09/05/2004 10:05:07 AM PDT by fortheDeclaration
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To: MarMema
I would have more respect for the man.......I am not referring to the Russian people, if he had joined us in fighting our war on terror.

The funding is all derived from the same sources.

81 posted on 09/05/2004 11:01:28 AM PDT by OldFriend (WAR IS THE REMEDY OUR ENEMIES HAVE CHOSEN)
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To: N. Beaujon
In my opinion we were on the wrong side against Milosevich.

We attacked our allie and defended islamic fundamentalists. How very clintonion.

82 posted on 09/05/2004 11:05:20 AM PDT by OldFriend (WAR IS THE REMEDY OUR ENEMIES HAVE CHOSEN)
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To: ProudVet77

"That worries me for the Russian people. Putin could use this as a way of going back to the old ways."

That's exactly what I thought after reading the following;

"Putin took a defiant tone, acknowledging Russia's weaknesses but blaming it on the fall of the Soviet Union, foreign foes seeking to tear apart Russia and on corrupt officials. He said Russians could no longer live "carefree" and must all confront terrorism."


83 posted on 09/05/2004 11:36:11 AM PDT by Quick_Rod
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To: Quick_Rod
Bad guess. What Putin is referring to is the Russian people's complaints about lack of security measures - on the metro, for one. Russian press is filled with these recently.

Putin is acknowledging their complaints and promising to act on them.

84 posted on 09/05/2004 11:39:35 AM PDT by MarMema
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Comment #85 Removed by Moderator

To: Quick_Rod; ProudVet77
Here is one recent interview with a Russian, for instance.

"Generally, there's problem with security for people here. In the whole country, in Moscow and elsewhere, on the planes, trains, streets, everywhere and anytime. There's constant talk about it, on the subway for ex., through loud speakers they repeat: "Citizens pay attention to suspicious objects, suspicious people!". That's of course an ordinary fiddle-faddle. In essence, nothing is being done, and this what had happenen proves that the most elemental measures to ensure security for our people are not set up."

From the Gazeta, 9-3-04 "Yuri Levada conversed Irena Lewandowska"

86 posted on 09/05/2004 11:42:34 AM PDT by MarMema
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Comment #87 Removed by Moderator

To: N. Beaujon

The problem is that the Chechen movement for independence has been hijacked by Muslim extremists including Al-Qaeda and those who practice the Wahabi sect of Islam. Most of the fighters are not even Chechens any more but Muslims from around the world.

Lets be clear here, the Russians are just as guilty of atrocities in Chechnya as these bastards are in Russia. Is it justification - no, but what the world needs to understand is that these are not Chechen rebels fighting for some noble cause of independence and freedom, but blood thirsty terrorists from Iraq, Syria, Saudi Arabia, etc... who have adopted the Chechen cause as an excuse to shoot non-muslims.

As far back as the early 90s there was an influx into Checnya of Saudis, etc...to fight as part of the Mujahadeen against the perceived Russian invaders.

You do not see mentioned in the MSM that these are Islamic Terrorists. Why? Because that would lend credibility to Pres. Bush's cause. Kerry wants to believe that if you leave the terrorists alone, simply ignore them, they will not bother us. Unfortunately, they are like a storm just over the horizon, it may not be raining yet, but it is coming and when it hits it will hit with a fury if left unchecked.

Hit them in their own homes, yes bring liberty and freedom, but have the forces of evil FEAR the reaction of the United States should they attack us any place in the world. Let them not feel safe anywhere.


88 posted on 09/05/2004 11:44:52 AM PDT by Stag (Kerry, Lenin, Chirac - which one doesn't belong? Kerry. The others love their country.)
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To: MarMema

general ping (you've already been to the thread)

http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/1207777/posts


89 posted on 09/05/2004 11:46:23 AM PDT by Bobby777
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To: LIBERTARIAN JOE; All

I managed to track down what appears to be the parent organization at the IRS website.

http://www.irs.gov/charities/page/0,,id=15053,00.html

Fund for Victims and Hostages of Moscow Terror
Bensalem PA
Until October 2006

The charity was set up after the Moscow theater attack.

I used may PayPal account to make my donation. They are a PayPal verified member. So far as I can tell it is a legit organization, but I am nowhere near being an expert at this sort of thing.

If you visit the "Wayback Machine" you can see that the MoscowHelp.org website has been around since November 23, 2002.

http://web.archive.org/web/*/http://www.moscowhelp.org/


90 posted on 09/05/2004 12:08:03 PM PDT by LayoutGuru2 (Triskaidekaphobia ? Never heard of it !)
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To: N. Beaujon
This is the first time in history where the world gets to watch what is going on in Russia, so dissent has not been eliminated. My stepbrother is a journalist there, by the way, dissent has not been eliminated. The days of state run Pravda are gone.

My understanding is that TV news, which for a while had some independent outlets, is now entirely in the hands of the state. Furthermore a number of newspaper reporters who have criticized corruption have been killed and no proper investigation of these murders has been done. Some of the articles I have seen posted here from Pravda lately are of the quality of a supermarket tabloid. Things aren't as bad as they were under the USSR, but they are headed in that direction.

91 posted on 09/05/2004 1:01:41 PM PDT by wideminded
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To: Stag
Lets be clear here, the Russians are just as guilty of atrocities in Chechnya as these bastards are in Russia. Is it justification - no, but what the world needs to understand is that these are not Chechen rebels fighting for some noble cause of independence and freedom, but blood thirsty terrorists from Iraq, Syria, Saudi Arabia, etc... who have adopted the Chechen cause as an excuse to shoot non-muslims.

I don't know, it's a difficult situation. The Chechen cause has always been one of national Independence (they want autonomy over their oil and their lives, Russia wants their oil and is.was not about to let go another breakaway republic.)

I also take exception with your argument about who adopted who,. I don't think the Saudis, et al adopted the Chechens while the Chechens are sitting innocently by going "stop that, it's not what we want". Totally the opposite. They have adopted Al Queda as allies. Period. I'm also not buying the atrocity for atrocity thing. I don't think anyone does atrocities like the Muslims, ever and while I know what you're saying no one asked the Chechen's to ally with these scum. That's like saying the teamsters aren't so bad, so what if they hooked up with the mob, their original cause was legitimate.

I think there has to come a point when causes of Independence have to be held responsible for who they choose to join them in their ultimate goal. I mean I may want to divorce my husband but do I hire a divorce lawyer or a hit man? That choice is the reflection of my character, no one else's. Lawyers jokes aside, the Chechens called the hit men, worse they called in the barbarians (way too good a word.) Worse, they bonded with these guys---over oil? Independence? This was justification for massacring those people in that theater? For what they just did to those kids? For all the atrocities they have committed in between. That is the difference between us and them.

The Palestinians wanted their homeland back. Their solution? Massacre the athletes at the Olympics, throw an old man in a wheelchair over the side of a ship, send in their youth strapped with shrapnel into disco's, pizza parlors, buses, and on and on. And what about the Philippines? Same deal. And the Sudan, and on and on and on. They all have their "causes" it's they're methods that have no moral equivalents since the days of the marauding hoards. They are sub human.

Sure, the Camp David hotel was a terrorist attack, it was rude, it was terrorism, it was not a legitimate military target. Shame on Ben Gurion, shame on Menachem Begin but how far would Israel have gone for Independence? Allied with Pol Pot? I doubt it.

Israel would have given up it's claim and moved to Montana, imo, before it ever resorted to what we have today. We can't "what if" that but in terms of the Islamic world and Chechnya--and it's everyplace in the world by the way where there are Muslims (oh, excuse me, the Religion of Peace) where they kill, main, stone, DESTROY.) I mean it's one thing to have a cause, we all feel ours is legitimate but who we ally with. I think that says who you are.

By the way, love your tag line. ("Kerry, Lenin, Chirac - which one doesn't belong? Kerry. The others love their country.")

Anne
92 posted on 09/05/2004 1:15:00 PM PDT by N. Beaujon (sera@ix.netcom.com)
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To: N. Beaujon

"We showed weakness, and weak people are beaten,"

The sleeping bear has awaken!!


93 posted on 09/05/2004 1:21:56 PM PDT by duk
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To: N. Beaujon

Oh, I agree, it is not like the Chechens are innocent by any means. They brutally slaughtered any who was against their cause...Russians, fellow Chechens, you name it...

There is a certain percentage (probably growing) who do in fact want to escalate the conflict. I mean the Chechen national anthem is "Death or Freedom", must speak somewhat to the national attitudes.

It seems foreign fighters were involved in this conflict from the very beginning, and yeah, who adopted who is probably irrelevant. My point, poorly stated, was that the cause of Chechen independence is not likely on the minds of the fighters who have rallied to the cause from other nations. I think some fight simply to fight a larger power.


There are so many factions who ae fighting in Checnya, you need a scorecard...there is the Chechen freedom fighters, Chechens loyal to the Russians, Russian military, Russian gangsters, Chechen gangsters, Foreign mercenaries, and I am sure there are smaller groups as well. The country is pretty much a mess...with the general populations getting caught in the cross fire.

Russia is trying to make a point with Chechnya, it started out as Yeltsin trying to prevent Chechen independence as a way to rally people to the flag and draw attention from his failings and it has truly become a quagmire for the Russians.


94 posted on 09/05/2004 1:56:09 PM PDT by Stag (Kerry, Lenin, Chirac - which one doesn't belong? Kerry. The others love their country.)
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To: fortheDeclaration

I didn't say they were fair. Non-Muslims were forced to pay money, but they are not supposed to be slaughtered. Also, modern Muslims don't pay much attention to that sort of stuff anymore than Christians go around looking for witches to kill.

Many religious sayings are reinterpreted in modern times and not taken literally.

I think we should fight terrorists and encourage the modernization of Islam. We can't and shouldn't kill them all.

The Chechens were deported by Stalin. The ones that wanted independance from Russia were ALL called terrorists even tho' there were moderates.

Putin went after the moderates. That made the terrorists stronger I think.

There is a lot about Chechens at www.rferl.org/


95 posted on 09/05/2004 2:46:37 PM PDT by Snapple
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To: Stag

It is possible this school take-over was payback for when Inguish were kicked out of N. Osetia a few years ago.

There was a war and some Inguish were just kicked out to Chechnya I think. Many were radicalized by this.

Many accounts of this tragedy mentions that there were Inguish there.

Check www.rferl.org/ for the history of that.


96 posted on 09/05/2004 2:52:26 PM PDT by Snapple
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To: silversky

Here is a link to articles about the history of the Chechen crisis.

There is no possible excuse for what happened in Beslan, but there may be a history behind it. Bad policies may encourage terrorism.

http://www.rferl.org/specials/chechnya/

That part of the world has to have winners and losers. They don't compromise too much.


97 posted on 09/05/2004 2:56:20 PM PDT by Snapple
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To: N. Beaujon

"We showed weakness, and weak people are beaten,"

What a perfect example of what GWB and Cheney and other speakers at the GOP Convention were saying.

Hopefully, Americans can connect the dots between what Putin says about this situation and the stance America must take on terrorism.

Never mind the "strong" rhetoric of Kerry and Edwards. Everything about them shouts weakness so loud that one can hardly hear their words!


98 posted on 09/05/2004 3:13:58 PM PDT by loveliberty2
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To: N. Beaujon

Putin rightly calls them terrorists while the AP still refers to those animals as "militants".

What will it take to make the AP wake up and smell the coffee?


99 posted on 09/05/2004 3:24:23 PM PDT by Noachian (Legislation without representation is tyranny)
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To: Stag

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A64187-2004Sep5.html

The Russians are finally admitting they lied--they weren't just wrong--about the numbers of people in the school. Lies just infuriate people and plays into the terrorists' hands. The terrorists are tryong to make the government look bad, and when the government lies, it looks bad.


100 posted on 09/05/2004 5:26:42 PM PDT by Snapple
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