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To: rolling_stone; All; backhoe; Bennett46; betsyross60; BlessedBeGod; Brad's Gramma; DeweyCA; ...


RS: Maybe you are right, seems the Islam followers are following their God, and guidebook/Koran...what about the other Gods? Why would an all powerful and compassionate God allow these things to happen? Is this a nonsensical test of belief?

QX: FIRST, a warning . . . GOD Himself insists:

1) His ways are 'higher than our ways' --whatever that means, it implies that finite man trying to judge an infinite God will likely fail miserably before getting out of that starting blocks--and THAT failure will have nothing to do with the infinite AUTHORITY difference--but merely the CAPACITY TO UNDERSTAND difference.

Still--God is not capricious and must be consistent with His nature and His Word. However, there are plenty of mysteries in His Word.

2) God Himself declares that those not in GENUINE DIALOGUE, RELATIONSHIP WITH HIM--REDEEMED BY THE BLOOD OF THE LAMB *CANNOT* understand spiritual things--at least beyond a certain unstated, probably idiosyncratic, point.

3) I mostly . . . enter these sorts of issues hereon with weariness, wary-ness and sadness. Nevertheless, as the saying goes, someone's got to do it.

1.0 Cutting to the chase, it boils down to the issue of LOVE. God COULD have created humans as bioengineered, faithful robots.

1.1 He CHOSE to create humans that He might have fellowship with spiritual creatures made somehow in His image, after His nature--IN A LOVE RELATIONSHIP WITH THEM AS FRIENDS.

1.2 He also chose for them a destiny of ruling and reigning with Christ--evidently over countless galaxies/universes/dimensions and countless ages.

1.3 It is evidently quite crucial to God and His priorities that we learn to rule and reign with Christ after His nature--incredibly self-less, sacrificial, servant-hearted--INCREDIBLY COSTLY LOVE.

1.4 My own GUESS is that God MAY be very determined to have all creation based on a foundational currancy of that kind of costly Love. He notes that "ALL CREATION GROANS, WAITING AGONIZINGLY IN EAGER EXPECTATION FOR THE MANIFESTATION OF THE SONS OF GOD." Whatever that means, it seems to mean that all creation is overwhelmingly burdened under the weight of destructive, deadly, polluting SIN--missing the mark of perfection--as in archery--SIN--and is most eager to be delivered of it.

1.5 And, the paragon pinacle of God's nature, priorities, perfection is HIS LOVE. And He requires those of us to rule and reign with Christ as His brothers, joint heirs--must be saturated through and through--as much as practicable, workable--incredibly experientially, it seems--with that quality and nature of Love.

1.6 And, though we cannot bring ourselves to that lofty state and quality of being, it does seem to require our excruciating choices, persistence, efforts, cooperation with Holy Spirit as HE CONFORMS US TO THE IMAGE OF CHRIST.

2.0 But there's a crucially important problem. One doesn't command Love, per se.

2.1 Love, to be Love, must be a CHOICE away from NONLOVE.

[Which kind of puts satan in an interesting light. But that's a long other issue long on futile and silly conjecture and short on fruitfulness.]


3.0 Adam and Eve flunked the CHOICE test of Love. And thereby spiritually and by ingrained character, all mankind became polluted with sin and sin nature--forever destined to be flawed and in rebellion against God--unable to have a relationship with God at all--apart from God's grace, God's plan for Salvation.

3.1 From Adam to Christ--blood sacrifices pointed the way to the ultimate Sacrifice on Christ's Cross. The ultimate, paragon example of incalculable LOVE--THE GOD MAN--CHOOSING TO OBEDIENTLY FOLLOW THE FATHER'S WILL TO THE CROSS--AND to THE RESURRECTION AS KING OF KINGS AND LORD OF LORDS.


4.0 But until the time of Christ's return to set all things right and banish evil from the planet--at least for a season--1,000 years (at the end of the 1,000 years, Scripture indicates satan will be loosed rather briefly to test those born during that time--to give them a REAL CHOICE--after which he'll be imprisoned--evidently for all endless time).

4.1 But satan is rather terminally annoyed--enraged, actually. He fancied himself equal to God. He wasn't thrilled at all to be kicked out of Heaven. His only feeble retaliation is to attempt to throw sand into God's eyes by killing, robbing from, destroying God's crowning creation--mankind.

4.2 Rebellion against God--against the paragon of perfection, creation, Love, wholeness, beauty etc.



be--can only result in



5.0 That evil has, since Adam, pained, polluted, troubled, destoyed, killed everyone quickly or slowly. Until THE CROSS, death reigned ultimately supreme.

5.1 At THE CROSS, and the empty tomb, death was conquered and brought to heel. Satan lost.

5.2 Supreme Love overcame supreme evil.


7.0 It also illustrates as few object lessons can. Man cannot live apart from God. CERTAINLY, man cannot live in health, abundance, wholeness, serenity, beauty, perfection--IN TRUE AND LASTING, ETERNAL-LIFE LOVE--apart from God.

8.0 I believe that one of the reasons God will insure that the USA eventually ceases to be Israel's protector [and woe be us when that day comes]--is to demonstrate to all mankind, all creation--that even a democratic republic founded on Christian principles cannot--by man's human effort apart from God--bring about a perfect society.

9.0 The simple truth is, that in and of our own nature and devices--we degerate quickly into unspeakable evil. Civilized people like to pretend that it's not true about THEM. But it is true. Any evil could more or less be perpetrated by ALMOST anyone IF their upbringing, conditioning or merely current circumstances set the stage sufficiently for it.

9.1 The mettle to resist evil 100% completely, perfectly in all contexts at all times facing all contingencies--for a lifetime--even for a day or a week or month--is simply not in us. If it were, Christ's death would have been unnecessary.

9.2 And, that evil, whether RELATIVELY minor or monumental--HAS REAL PAINFUL, HORRID, HORROR FILLED, DISPICABLE CONSEQUENCES. REBELLION AGAINST GOD ALWAYS DOES. It doesn't always show immediately or vividly. But it always does.

10.0 The pharisees had no monopoly on white-washed tomb; self-righteous--WE ARE BETTER THAN THEY mentalities. It began with Adam and Eve and very vividly with Cain.

10.1 I have come to think that the white-washed evils are among the blackest and most horror filled--especially in the name of RELIGION.

10.2 Note that I hate religion. Christianity is about God reaching to man. Even Christian RELIGION is about man making an idol of a list of rules--fooling themselves that they can control the relationship by playing machiavellian games with the rules and fooling themselves that they are successfully reaching up to God based on their human constructions on the issues involved--particularly the RULES involved. God says the letter of the law brings death but The Spirit brings liberty.
10.2 Note that I hate religion. Christianity is about God reaching to man. Even Christian RELIGION is about man making an idol of a list of rules--fooling themselves that they can control the relationship by playing machiavellian games with the rules and fooling themselves that they are successfully reaching up to God based on their human constructions on the issues involved--particularly the RULES involved. God says the letter of the law brings death but The Spirit brings liberty.

11.0 You mentioned Islam. It has been abundantly documented elsewhere that the consturction of Moslems who construe Allah as God Almighty--is a historical fallacy. Mohammad cleverly usurpted the long standing tribal deity--a demonic moon god--allah--as his focus. Satan must have been wonderfully pleased. Mohammad was wary of the visions and voices and initially wanted to forsake them as demonic--which they clearly were as the blood-thirstiness of so much of the founding documents proves. But Mohammad's cohorts persuaded him otherwise. And, as they say, the rest was history.

11.1 I personally believe that God's statement that those who earnestly and authentically SEEK HIM, SHALL FIND HIM--I believe that to be so even if they are mistaken in labelling Him insultingly by a tribal demonic moon god's name.

12.0 CHRISTIANITY is unique among all the world's religions. ONLY Christianity--AUTHENTIC CHRISTIANTY--declares that Salvation--eternal RELATIONSHIP WITH GOD--is by FAITH--NOT EARNING IT BY WORKS. Good thing. Flawed, imperfect, sinful works by flawed, imperfect, sinful creatures could never EARN a perfect RELATIONSHIP WITH GOD.

12.1 I wish to note quickly that even Scriptural congregations can skew--too often quickly skew--their practices into idolatrous RELIGION away from RELATIONSHIP. It seems to me that about a year and a half after founding, most any local congregation with most any set of Scriptural rules is in danger of becoming a deadly MAN RAN (vs Holy Spirit ran) religion.
13.0 To briefly recap and summarize a key point: There can be NO LOVE, without a genuine, costly REAL CHOICE between LOVE vs NON-LOVE. And choices toward NON-LOVE MUST RESULT IN SUFFERING, PAIN--ELSE THE CHOICE IS NO CHOICE AND UTTERLY NONSENSICAL.

13.1 It is NOT how can a Loving God allow such--How can a Loving God NOT allow such. He must--else there is NO LOVE. There are only robots, droids, The Assimilated Borg.

14.0 Given that GOD IS ALTOGETHER LOVE; LOVING; GOOD ALL THE TIME; ALL THE TIME HE IS GOOD . . . GIVEN THAT HE IS PERFECTION AND INFINITELY MORE SENSITIVE, TENDER-HEARTED, COMPASSIONATE, EMPATHETIC than mere mortals--what can HE DO; how can HE FEEL in the face of such a horror as the recent Russian situation.

14.1 BTW, Christ demonstrated all this in His life and certainly His death on the cruelest of Crosses. No other God-man ever truly existed. And certainly no other spiritual giant of history every claimed to be God; lived demonstrating miracles over death itself; offered Himself as the ultimate blood sacrifice--and rose the 3 day--for many days visible and conversing with over 500 witnesses as proof. There is no equal in all of history. Satan pretends otherwise. It's just part of his usual lying, robbing the truth from the witless and destroying of hope.

14.2 With this somewhat belabored preface, we come to the recent horror in Russia.

15.0 It is my conviction at 57 years, that God has more compassion and caring in His little toenail, as it were, for all the suffering children--than all the rest of mankind combined.

15.1 I don't know for certain therefore, what. But I conjecture the following. I do so based on what I've learned of God's nature and heart. There's some annecdotal information confirming it. But it's certainly not at all clearly laid out in Scripture. Evidently it's not a priority in God's eyes, to have done so.

16.0 I believe that each and every child--all the more so for the tender hearted truly seeking good--I believe that each and every 'innocent' child has at the point of death more of a demonstration of God's compassion and probably some option based on their life, heart and choices to that point--to accept an eternal relationship and life with God through Christ, or not. Nothing else makes much sense to me. Certainly this is not a doctrine that I teach, per se. It would be difficult to impossible to prove it by Scripture at all.

17.0 We have examples in the Old Testament of God requiring the Israelites to wipe out whole tribal groups including their animals. Incredible. Sometimes, God seemed to do such sovereignly as at Soddom and Gomorrah. And, we see in prophecies regarding our own end times era, that God is going to wipe ALL evil men off the face of the planet. THE MEEK SHALL TRULY INHERIT THE EARTH--LITERALLY.

18.0 HE ALONE is able to factor in all the good/evil aspects of individual lives at such moments.

19.0 The suffering is real. The pains of the children and of the parents and siblings are real.

20.0 BUT I KNOW FROM MY OWN ABUNDANTLY PAINFUL LIFE, THAT GOD DOES NOT WASTE SUFFERING. I know from many long dark nights of the soul that--in many respects--especially when responded to with a HEART OF FAITH--that suffering really is a special grace. IT REALLY IS A SPECIAL GIFT. Somehow, SUFFERING REALLY DOES YIELD FOR US A GREATER WEIGHT OF GLORY TO OUR LIVES, PERSONS AND ACCOUNT THROUGHOUT ETERNITY.

21.0 The long line finally winds into the room where his wife ahead of him is beheaded. His neck is placed on the line and the blade barely brushes a hair on his neck AND HE IS INSTANTLY OUT OF HIS BODY OBSERVING THE WHOLE THING PAINLESSLY AND SERENELY. HE FELT ABSOLUTELY NO PAIN. And, then quickly ascended to Heaven with his angels to The Lord.

22.0 That's the sort of thing that I believe AN ALL LOVING, ALTOGETHER GOOD GOD DOES WITH THE 'INNOCENT' IN THE WORLD.

23.0 I put innocent in quotes because all of us are NOT innocent. Anyone who's had small children and an open mind realizes that rebellion and defiance are there the first week of birth. Nevertheless, small children make greater or lesser choices toward or away from Love. And evidently the heart choices matter enormously to God.

24.0 One can get into the issue of ultimate reconciliation for all. One normally orthodox fellow I know wonders if ALL creation is not God's effort to reform his old buddy satan. I don't know how God will ultimately balance out all these issues. I know it will be consistent with Scripture and with His Nature. That doesn't necessarily mean it will be consistent with our assumptions about either. But all such conjectures run into problems with at least a Scripture or 3. And, they are fruitless.

25.0 We KNOW from Scripture what we need to do to agree to and receive an eternal relationship with God through confession, repentance and receiving Christ's Blood as our Salvation.

26.0 Certainly we can know from the sense God gives all of us as we observe His majestic creation that HE IS GOD and we are NOT. Anyone but a fool would choose eternal life with a perfect Loving God vs ANYTHING LESS. And ANYTHING LESS easily and automatically becomes hell--any distance from God, is hell.

27.0 Certainly folks currently have the capacity to rail at God about the Russian children's suffering and worse suffering. But it's not recommended. God knows what He's doing. He allows what He will allow. He keeps close accounts. He is altogether just. And, He is altogether Loving. And, His Mercy triumphs over judgment. Those are the facts. All else is noise and vain conjecture.

28.0 Some contend that a God that allows suffering cannot be Good or cannot be Almighty. I think it's utter insanity to presume to judge God. And to do so with God who has put Himself on The Cross for our eternal salvation is utter insolence as well as utter stupidity.

29.0 There are mysteries in life which we have too little information and probably too little capacity to comprehend in our finite state. Our arrogant 'scientific' age is not inclined to accept such much at all. Doesn't change the facts.

30.0 Our era will have much worse than the Russian tragedy. Some people, Scriptures indicate, will curse God and die in utter defiant rebellion. It's not necessary. God's ways, by definition are right, just AND LOVING. Thankfully, HE REALLY IS A LOVING GOD. I pray all who read these humble words may find Him so abundantly in their lives.


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To: Quix

Thanks for the ping!

49 posted on 09/05/2004 7:36:46 PM PDT by Alamo-Girl
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To: lupie



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To: Quix

Thanks for your work, brother. The questioners/nonbelievers fatuously imagine a situation that never has existed and never will: "God's Reputation In The Hands Of Angry Sinners." He tests and examines the reins and the heart. And as the 185,000 dead Assyrians found out, he sometimes strikes w/o warning...

53 posted on 09/05/2004 7:41:55 PM PDT by 185JHP ( "The thing thou purposest shall come to pass: And over all thy ways the light shall shine.")
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To: Quix
Amen and AMEN!
54 posted on 09/05/2004 7:48:11 PM PDT by ExSoldier (M1A: Any mission. Any conditions. Any foe. At any range.)
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To: Quix; agrace

Thanks for the ping, I will read it tomorrow when my brain is awake!

55 posted on 09/05/2004 7:50:56 PM PDT by lupie
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To: Quix

Good post. I concur.

56 posted on 09/05/2004 7:55:03 PM PDT by Cvengr (;^))
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To: Quix

Oh My, you are upset.

All I know is God did not give anyone the right to take away someone else's child, that child can only be called home by Him!

66 posted on 09/05/2004 10:54:05 PM PDT by JustPiper (Zell " We are LIBERATOR'S NOT Obstructionists!!!" Miller- OCCUPY THIS KERRY !!!)
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