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Why you should worry that there are fewer white male doctors
Telegraph ^ | 9/5/04 | Dr Theodore Dalrymple

Posted on 09/05/2004 4:22:12 PM PDT by freedom44

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To: FITZ

I got the impressiont that the author thinks of himself too much. He thinks that something requires a majority presence of white males in it to be respectable, which isn't true. The real concern here and in the UK is increasing government control.


101 posted on 09/06/2004 6:22:38 AM PDT by cyborg (http://mentalmumblings.blogspot.com/)
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To: PeterFinn

"The pillar of Afro-American society who took Bakke's rightful place just because he was black? He went on to kill several of his patients, lost his medical license, and is now a long-term 'guest' of the State of California Department of Corrections."

Any link to support this? I'd love to save it in my archives.


102 posted on 09/06/2004 6:25:25 AM PDT by moonman
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To: razoroccam

very interesting... considered that many people self identify themselves, I wonder how accurate studies are unless they actually use a dna-type test to determine the percentages of genes. It's pretty fascinating if one is a geneticist I suppose.


103 posted on 09/06/2004 6:25:31 AM PDT by cyborg (http://mentalmumblings.blogspot.com/)
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To: freedom44

Isn't this article from England, where they have national health insurance for everyone. If so, imagine all the regulations they must have on doctors, including income.
If so, forget the entire content of the article.


104 posted on 09/06/2004 6:31:15 AM PDT by moonman
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To: moonman

http://www.adversity.net/FRAMES/Editorials/48_PatrickChavis.htm

*** Bakke was murdered. He's not even alive.


105 posted on 09/06/2004 6:36:09 AM PDT by cyborg (http://mentalmumblings.blogspot.com/)
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To: Jim Noble
We have fleets of people now who can get to practice (which is extremely stressful) without ever, ever being stress tested while they could still be stopped.

Yes I think this is bad too --- the blue-collar work mentality where you clock in and out for 8 hour shifts when being a physician takes a different mentality. A patient in crisis at 3 am needs a doctor who can respond. Also patients are in the hospital for 36 hours straight -- it's good to have that overall perspective of how things run in the hospital at various times --- not their whole career but at the beginning is a good time to learn that.

106 posted on 09/06/2004 7:15:03 AM PDT by FITZ
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To: cyborg

I think the valid concern the author has is that question he makes that why the field has changed so much that the types it used to attract no longer want this profession. A lot of good doctors say if they had it to do over, they would choose something different because even here in the USA, a doctor cannot order a simple cholesterol test without checking managed care plans and Medicare guidelines to see if they're allowed or else tell the patient that they will be paying for the test. And if a Hillary type plan goes into effect, the patient couldn't have the test even if willing to pay the full cost of it.


107 posted on 09/06/2004 7:18:22 AM PDT by FITZ
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To: Southern62
2 reasons - minority preferential treatment in admissions and malpractice insurance costs

errr.. dude -- the article is from the UK -- most doctors there are from India or ethnically Indian and Indians DON'T have preferential treatment in admissions in the UK, no affirmative action
108 posted on 09/06/2004 7:18:45 AM PDT by Cronos (W2K4)
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To: Torie
I am not quite sure the increase in the percentage or Indian doctors in Britain represents a decline in quality, and the author does not present any evidence that it does

Actually it doesn't -- the decline in quality is due to the NHS and socialist medicare
109 posted on 09/06/2004 7:19:47 AM PDT by Cronos (W2K4)
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To: DieuEtMonDroit
take a look at your local hospital's surgical team and you'll see that WASPs still dominate...

Well, there are quite a few doctors from the INdian continent
110 posted on 09/06/2004 7:20:42 AM PDT by Cronos (W2K4)
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To: cyborg

But for myself I don't pick doctors by their skin color or ethnic background but I have access to more information --- it's interesting to know who the doctors themselves go to when they or their family members are patients. Not always the white male.


111 posted on 09/06/2004 7:20:46 AM PDT by FITZ
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To: FITZ

I worry about the health care system today.


112 posted on 09/06/2004 7:21:31 AM PDT by cyborg (http://mentalmumblings.blogspot.com/)
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To: razoroccam
Even the FDA does not consider Indians as a separate ethnic minortiy - we are genetically considered as caucasians./i>

Indians are Caucasians -- they are after all members of the Aryan/Indo-European race

113 posted on 09/06/2004 7:21:52 AM PDT by Cronos (W2K4)
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To: buccaneer81
We're talking about a cultural divide here, not a racial issue.

Not really -- the poster explicitly said WASP -- White Anglo-Saxon Protestant. So, that kind of means all Catholic, Orthodox etc Doctors, all non-Anglo-Saxon doctors aren't kosher either according to the poster.
114 posted on 09/06/2004 7:25:29 AM PDT by Cronos (W2K4)
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To: Pharmboy
Bzzzt--wrong. And it's been this way for a while. MEN RULE!
BAw, grow up -- just because Men have a good average doesn't mean one particular man is smarter than a particular woman. Eastern Euroepan Jews are supposed to be the smartest folks ont eh planet IQ wise -- that doesn't mean that there aren't a few idiots among them. From a family of idiots you could have a smart one too
115 posted on 09/06/2004 7:28:30 AM PDT by Cronos (W2K4)
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To: cyborg

I hate to say it --- when it comes to doctors, I'm likely to discriminate on the basis of age --- the new ones coming in don't seem to have what the old ones have. And checking with the HMO on their next course of action isn't the same as the way the old-timers do things -- they're more likely to consult each other.


116 posted on 09/06/2004 7:36:00 AM PDT by FITZ
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To: FITZ
A patient in crisis at 3 am needs a doctor who can respond

No, actually, that patient needs a doctor who wants to respond.

That can be taught. It's not inborn.

117 posted on 09/06/2004 7:51:47 AM PDT by Jim Noble (Hillary becomes the RAT candidate on October 9. You saw it here first.)
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To: FITZ
It's all about government regulations, managed care plans, govermnent control.

I think you're right. Many white males are leaving medicine because they simply will not tolerate the restrictions being placed by managed care/insurance/gov't on how they care for their patients. In my experience, foreign born doctors don't really have a problem with this.

It's not that the HMOs, etc. seek out or even prefer foreign doctors necessarily. It's more that the rules which they make the doctors adhere to cause the white doctors to say "screw that" and do something else, while the foreign doctors just go along with it.
118 posted on 09/06/2004 7:57:19 AM PDT by Iwo Jima
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To: Jim Noble

What do you think of critical care nurses having five 12 hour shifts in a row?


119 posted on 09/06/2004 7:59:17 AM PDT by Iwo Jima
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To: Iwo Jima
What do you think of critical care nurses having five 12 hour shifts in a row?

Do you mean 5 12s interrupted by 5 twelve-hour rest periods, or 5 straight 12s (60 hours without a break)?

120 posted on 09/06/2004 8:06:16 AM PDT by Jim Noble (Hillary becomes the RAT candidate on October 9. You saw it here first.)
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To: Jim Noble

The former.


121 posted on 09/06/2004 8:10:19 AM PDT by Iwo Jima
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To: Iwo Jima

I think you can work twelves forever with twelve hours off.


122 posted on 09/06/2004 8:13:34 AM PDT by Jim Noble (Hillary becomes the RAT candidate on October 9. You saw it here first.)
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To: Iwo Jima

That's what I think it is --- many of the foreign doctors come from countries that have socialized medicine and are pretty comfortable with the idea of it.

American doctors don't want the restrictions being placed on them --- restrictions that basically turn them into technicians looking up a set of managed care plans they must use.


123 posted on 09/06/2004 10:30:56 AM PDT by FITZ
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To: Jim Noble

But it's like what you said earlier --- that kind of schedule the residents used to face weeded out the less committed kinds.

Some good things that could come out of all this is that people should begin to realize their own health care isn't something they should turn over to a government beaurocrat or the clerks at their HMO or even to a physician. There isn't a magic pill that will take care of the effects of lifelong lack of exercise and wrong kind of eating. Most health problems and diseases can be avoided but it's something people have to do for themselves.


124 posted on 09/06/2004 10:34:45 AM PDT by FITZ
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To: Torie
That reminds of a while back when Issac Asimov published a referenced work on famous scientists in history.

A group of feminist editors and reviewers excoriated the work and demanded that he rewrite the work to include famous women scientists.

At first, he simply informed them that there were no famous women scientists but they would have none of that and harangued him incessantly.

Finally, he gave in, went back to his research and came out with a second book chock-full of famous women scientists that no one had ever heard of.

125 posted on 09/06/2004 10:46:29 AM PDT by Old Professer (The enemy is among us; he is us; we know it, we dare not say it - someone will be offended.)
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To: Old Professer

Isaac, sorry; it was my father's name also, my fingers are bad.


126 posted on 09/06/2004 10:48:55 AM PDT by Old Professer (The enemy is among us; he is us; we know it, we dare not say it - someone will be offended.)
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To: razoroccam

Well, yes, but I didn't want to mention the garlic smell. ;>)


127 posted on 09/06/2004 11:34:15 AM PDT by ozzymandus ("So it is written, so it shall be danced"-Al Bundy)
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To: cyborg

Thanks :)


128 posted on 09/06/2004 3:33:38 PM PDT by moonman
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Comment #129 Removed by Moderator

To: moonman; Former Proud Canadian; TASMANIANRED; LWalk18; Hank Rearden

Some links to back up my comments:

*Please note I am including liberal sources here, too. I invite you to make your own conclusions...same as I have.

http://lists.ucla.edu/pipermail/religionlaw/1997-August/009615.html

http://aad.english.ucsb.edu/docs/dmartin.html

http://www.adversity.net/FRAMES/Editorials/48_PatrickChavis.htm

http://www.uiowa.edu/~030116/116/articles/heriot.htm


130 posted on 09/07/2004 8:03:21 AM PDT by PeterFinn ("John Kerry is a flip-flopper and a phony" - Howell Raines quoted in the Wash. Post)
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To: Torie
The dirty little secret is that there are more avenues for success and renown then their used to be.......In 1800, the upper middle class consisted of doctors, lawyers, and preachers, with a few odd others. Today, we have about a hundred more choices....

Couldn't agree more. Not only are males not going to medical school any more, but they're not going to college in general like they used to.

That's not necessarily a bad thing. I've been out of college for 10 years, and from my experience the guys that never set foot on a college campus make just as much if not more $$$ than any college grads I know.

The craftsmen, tradesmen, small business owners, mechanics, salesmen, HVAC guys, etc etc, make just as much money and have a TON more job security than any college grad stuck in the corporate America grind.

Case in point....

I know of a guy that makes approx. $75,000 per year. We both live in semi-rural Southwest Virginia, so $75K a year is pretty good money. Well, he's the guy that sat next to me when we took the SAT tests in high school. We weren't great friends or anything, but we knew each other. I noticed at the time that his hands were dried up and peeling, he said that's because of the chemicals in the plant where he works. I snickered to myself "haha, you're a redneck loser, you'll work in a factory your whole life, and I'm going to college....hahaha."

Well, he's still working at that same place, 14 years and going strong. Now's he's the plant manager or something like that. I went to college, then the Army, got out and job hopped after layoffs, downsizing, etc.

Who's the smart one now? Why the heck did I bother with a $30,000 college education?

I don't think it's worth it any more. People can be just as successful, usualy a LOT more successful, by skipping college and getting out there and working, starting a business, learning a trade, etc.

Just my opinion, of course. :)

131 posted on 09/07/2004 8:25:47 AM PDT by IDontLikeToPayTaxes
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To: cyborg

Or (according P.D.Q Bach's "The Seasonings"):

To curry favor,
Favor curry.


132 posted on 09/07/2004 8:55:41 AM PDT by Doctor Stochastic (Vegetabilisch = chaotisch is der Charakter der Modernen. - Friedrich Schlegel)
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To: PeterFinn

Thanks for the links


133 posted on 09/07/2004 9:28:42 AM PDT by moonman
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