Skip to comments.Where Was God At Beslan? (Archbishop of Canterbury-Moslem Perps to be 'Cast into the Sea')
Posted on 09/06/2004 7:12:32 AM PDT by gopwinsin04
The slaughter at Beslan was so horrific it was enough to test the faith of the most committed of Christians, Archbishop Rowan Williams said at the weeks end.
Williams has admitted that the slaughter had led him to momentarily question his faith in God.
He said it would be inhuman not to question one's beliefs in the light of such evil.
Dr. Williams said that the terrorists had perpetrated the most evil kind of action imaginable and insisted that the murdered children had not been abandoned by God.
The Archbisop quoted the Bible in which Jesus said it would be better for people who committed such offences against children to have millstones around their necks and to be cast out into the sea.
'He is in the middle of all the suffering and He is weeping for all creation and all those involved. All we can do is pray for the sorrowful and the dead.'
(Excerpt) Read more at icwales.network.co.uk ...
They're not making Archbishops like they used to.
It's the new PC church..although I think his sentiment is genuine
Dr. Williams, how are these acts different from terrorists hurling grenades at preschoolers that terrorists ceases in Northern Israel in 1974? or blew up many times on the way to school over the course of the last few years? or Algerian terrorists cutting throats of 150 Muslim pupils at night 10-12 years ago?
I am just curious: what is it particularly different here Mr. Williams?
God was/is there. The question might be: Where is the Archbishop of Canterbury on the war on terror?
What the Archbishop might point out is these barbarians conduct such savagery in the NAME OF THEIR GOD! The slaughter of infidel children is a righteous act in the Koran because the age of the unbelievers is irrelevant.
This subhuman barbarism is done in the name of a false, wicked god by the name of Allah, an alias of Satan. Allah is not the God of Abraham. He is a serpent.. an imposter.
"He said it would be inhuman not to question one's beliefs in the light of such evil."
Rubbish. Those are not the words of a man who has a personal relationship with the Lord.
Worse things than this have happened in history, and it would be supremely arrogant to think that God somehow would stop someone in this age from being as evil as other have been in the past.
Where are the kids now?
You can't even imagine- it's that good.
Where are the terrorsts now?
You can't even imagine- it's that bad.
God is still in control.
Amen to that.
Williams is still considered a Christian?
And it will get worse. Satan knows his days are numbered. He is throwing everything he has to take as many souls to hell with him as he can. Those children were called home and God will comfort them for eternity.
My prayer is Jesus returns soon.
God was in the same place as when the Nazis slaughtered the Jews.
God does not simply allow evil, he allows good men to do nothing.
What was God supposed to do when France and Britian negotiated the partition of Czechoslovakia? Was he supposed to say, well, that's o.k., because I love the innocent I will not allow this blunder to result in such harm as the we know befell not only the Jews but the whole world, following the attempt to appease Hitler?
And, today, with the appeasement of Islamic fanatics that continued for decades, is God supposed to say, well, that's o.k., because I love the innocent I will not allow this blunder to result in such harm as we see about us?
God truly loves the innocent, and they are with him today and always, and we who miss them can be assured of being reunited with them forever, just we can also be sure that those who perpetrated these evils will be condemned to the fires of hell for always.
But, our bleeding heart liberal friends have got to realize that God has given us government not for national health insurance, but to be a terror to evil. Protecting us should be Job #1 for the governments of all the countries of the world.
Anyone who says that the war on terror takes money away from "programs" must think, like this Archbishop, that God is weak or uncaring, when, the truth is, they are simply fools.
You can say that again!
And as for the millstones - he used that out of context. But we get the idea.
God was not there --- but ALLA was!!!! That is the real truth.
No, Rowan, there is much more that we can do:
We can also pray that Muslims the world over will understand what Islam means and just who the "god" is that they are serving, and, just in case reality escapes them, we can tell them.
We can face reality ourselves and identify exactly what the evil is that is responsible and attack it at its black heart.
We can inform the people of the world about these monsters and the dangers that they threaten.
We can take action to prevent them from repeating such evil acts in the future.
We can take actions to protect ourselves and our children from such monsters.
We can confront them and their evil with force and power and thus put and end to their evil acts.
And,of paramount importance, we can vote for the re-election of President Bush, who is our best defense against these monsters and their evil ambitions.
To pray for deliverance is one thing, but we must also face reality and take meaningful action.
This is our choice: confrontation or capitulation.
Capitulation is handing over our children and ourselves to these evil monsters.
Appeasement is capitulation.
Confrontation is stopping these monsters, using whatever weapons it takes including force, and eradicating them and their evil.
Confrontation is the only course of action that we can reasonably and honorably take.
History is repeating itself. The people of the world faced the same evil in the 20th century. I'm surprised that you haven't learned the lessons of history.
Holy New-Martyrs of Beslan, pray to Christ-God for the salvation of our souls!
Just what I was thinking. Williams should know better.
The Archbishop can question his faith all he likes but it is his judgement that I question.
There is good and evil in the world, this notion is not new, it is biblical. It is high time that the clergy, and I include my own Catholic Church, recognizes that evil exists and must be confronted. The killing of murdering pigs does not offend the God of the Old Testament.
The Archbishop evidently yearns for a God who plays marionette and throws free will to the winds. I don't. Free will cuts a lot of ways Bishop. It allows evil but it also allows good to defeat evil and to defeat this kind of evil you must kill it.
It should be pretty clear by now that pacifism enables evil resulting in the killing fields of Cambodia, the slaughter in Rwanda, the gulags in the Soviet Union, the ovens in Germany and the mass graves in Iraq.
The clergy can close their eyes yet again but thank God, the soldiers of Christ won't.
Gee--Where was G-d during both World Wars? Where was He during the Holocaust? Where was He when the Titanic went down? I could go on and on. The point is that the World is simultaneously a beautiful and terrible place. Yes, very bad things happen, but we have to trust that its all part of His plan. If nothing else, history shows us that even horrific events serve as a trigger for good to ultimately prevail over evil.
Even though I am Jewish, it saddens me to hear ANY man of G-d so easily question his faith over something he should have learned in Theology 101. Its attitudes like this that make me fear for the future of Europe as a Judeo/Christian civilization.
As an Espicopalian, I can say this.
Under Williams, the Anglican Church and the Episcopal church to many of us seems to been on a PC move to minimize our old testament foundation.
Each Sunday, we have a reading from the Old Testament and a Psalm from David to be sung.
About 3-4 years ago I noted that the Old Testament readings were being replaced by what we would call PC New Testament readings. I commented about this to some friends originally from the UK. They said that their relatives and friends in the UK felt that Williams and his bishops were removing the old testament readings in the UK as they were too judgemental and harsh.
Apparently enough of us complained to the US National Church and that new trend has basically been stopped. For the most part our Sunday services have old testament readings. The suggested readings for each Sunday come from our National Church.
The new Bishops don't want references to the devil, hell and the impact of the devil on man. So when something terrible like this slaughter of innocents happens, they jump on the band wagon of why Did God allow this instead of blaming weak/evil men working for the Devil. To them it is easier to blame God than the evil men who committed terrible acts. They rush from judgement in most cases.
"This subhuman barbarism is done in the name of a false, wicked god by the name of Allah, an alias of Satan. Allah is not the God of Abraham. He is a serpent.. an imposter."
There is an interesting episode in the Holocaust memoir "Night" by Elie Weisel.
The teeaged protagonist Eliezer is in a concentration camp and has to witness a young child hung. The child is so light that he doesn't die right away. He strangles for about half and hour.
Eliezer hears another Jew say, "Where is God?" Elie answers in his heart--"He is here on the gallows." He means God is dead.
Eliezer had been taught by his religious teacher that according to the Jewish mystical tradition--the Cabala--a person's relationship to God is one of questions. Your relationship with God is based on the depth of your questions. The point is that people of deep faith DO question. God doesn't answer until we die according to this teaching. That is the low point of Eliezer's spiritual journey.
Later, Eliezer sees some boys mistreating their fathers because the fathers have become a burden to the boys' survival. Elieser, who had said he didn't believe in God, prays to God that he won't abandon his father.
Of course, when he doesn't abandon his father, he is not abandoning God either. So he questioned God, but in the end his faith in God made him stick with his father and not abandon him.
"The slaughter of infidel children is a righteous act in the Koran because the age of the unbelievers is irrelevant."
I'm curious. I know nothing of the Koran, is there an online translated version available? What verse (or whatever term they use) is that?
Link doesn't work for me.
I forgot to add to my story about Eliezer that when he saw the innocent child die he was all answers--"God is dead."
He forgot that our relationshop with God is one of questioner. God has the answers.
Yes. I will look it up and bring it back here.
And more from the good archbishop
Muslims can go to heaven, says Archbishop
By Jonathan Petre, Religion Correspondent
The Archbishop of Canterbury, Dr Rowan Williams, yesterday vented his frustrations with the Church factions warring over homosexuality and also reminded Christians that they did not have a monopoly on the afterlife.
In a rare glimpse of his anger over the row that has overshadowed his first two years at Canterbury, Dr Williams said the debate had lacked grace and patience.
Dr Williams: church needs reasoned debate
He said that this had been aggravated by pressure groups with entrenched positions who posted instant reactions to events on their websites.
The Archbishop also admitted to failing to live up to people's expectations, a reference to the disappointment many felt that he had not been more radical over his opposition to the war in Iraq.
He surprised some at the three-day Greenbelt festival in Cheltenham, Glos, by declaring that Muslims can go to heaven.
Dr Williams said that neither he nor any Christian could control access to heaven. "It is possible for God's spirit to cross boundaries," he said.
"I say this as someone who is quite happy to say that Jesus is the way, the truth and the life, and no one comes to the Father except by Jesus. But how God leads people through Jesus to heaven, that can be quite varied, I think."
During a wide-ranging discussion, Dr Williams reflected his disappointment at the tone of the debate on homosexuality, and his dismay at the vitriol of many of the e-mails he had received.
"It is not so much that we have disagreement in the Church - that happens," he said. "It is more to do with how those disagreements are conducted. The dismissiveness, the rawness of the anger . . . need to be worked with."
Speaking about the furore that followed the appointment of the gay cleric Dr Jeffrey John as Bishop of Reading, a post from which Dr John later withdrew, Dr Williams said that both sides had suffered shock.
Dr John, who was recently installed as Dean of St Albans, was also a speaker at the festival yesterday.
The Archbishop said: "On both sides of the debate as it evolved, quite a lot of people had to learn that the Church of England wasn't just them, because what I heard a lot of on both sides of the controversy was 'we thought the Church of England was us and people like us and maybe one or two others who don't matter very much'.
"I was intrigued by the mirror imaging that went on there. There was a sense on both sides, therefore, of shock and dispossession, that it is not all ours after all. It is not full of faithful evangelicals, it is not full of enlightened liberals.
"Very quickly pressure groups can form and settle and decide where they stand and invest in where they stand.
"We haven't had an effective forum in which that process can be slowed, not just for the sake of putting things off but for the sake of mutual understanding. We haven't quite found that forum yet. It is not the General Synod. It is certainly not the trading of websites."
My long narrative about suffering, evil, pain and an Almighty, Loving God etc. at:
may be of interest to folks reading this thread.
It was in response to a poster asserting that in Russia, God was AWOL.
I think you're right.
I don't think much of Believers' faith which hasn't been through sufficient fiery furnaces to cause them to serously doubt.
God has delcared that He WILL HAVE a tried and tested people for The Bride for His only begotten Son.
John the Baptist even was sobered severely near the end.
Jesus Himself asked aloud on The Cross--why . . . and sweat drops of blood anticipating The Cross.
I think that perhaps a worse horror today than an Archbishop having such doubts is that masses of people coming out of masses of seminaries [cemetaries according to some wags], have faith of such shallow dimensions as to be tested to the breaking point by a Michael Moore movie. THAT'S PRETTY PATHETIC!
I'm agnostic and even I find this pathetic.
What happened to those people is how your God calls you to stand, Mr. Williams.
During heavy flooding caused by La Nina, a priest refused to obey
evacuation orders and decided to stay back in town. As the flood
waters rose higher, he climbed to the roof of his house and
started praying to God for help.
After an hour of devout praying, a boat came by. The priest
refused the boat crew's help.
"God will come to my assistance," he said. And he remained on
the roof of his house.
After another hour praying, a canoe came by. The priest refused
the owner's help.
"God will rescue me," he said. And he remained on the roof of
After yet another hour of prayer, a helicopter flew by. Yet
again, the priest refused help.
"God will help me", he said. And again, he remained on the roof
of his house.
Despite continuous praying, the flood waters rose and the priest
eventually drowned in the raging water.
In heaven, he met God and asked Him, "Why didn't you help me? I
called for help and you didn't answer my prayers!"
"Didn't the help arrive? I sent a canoe, a boat, AND a chopper
to your rescue!"
I strongly agree.
I say you are wrong about God not being there.
God, in my construction on reality, is very given
to holding the head, hands and hearts of the suffering very close to His own heart.
Particularly those with an earnest desire to know Him.
Very well said.
One more reason to be glad that I left the Episcopal Church.
Thanks for posting that great story.
That is our priest's favorite story. He works it into a sermon or comments about once a quarter.
He has a few other opportunities to for the guy to save himself thrown in.
His wrap is a little different:
"In heaven, he met God and asked Him, "Why didn't you help me? I called for help and you didn't answer my prayers!"
God's response" "I sent a canoe, a boat, and a chopper
to answer your prayers. When you refused to accept my help, I moved on to help people who needed me and would accept my help! I was really busy that day!"
Only God knows for sure.
Beautiful, densely potent writing.
You are comparing apples and oranges. A teenage boy experiencing the terror of the Holocaust firsthand is different than the head of a large Church looking at a horrific incident from afar. You would think that the latter would have thought through these questions from a historical context--as such, incidents such as the one in Russia shouldn't cause them to question their faith.
It is common to questioning one's faith is common when experiencing horror firsthand. I can understand why someone suffering horribly may, at that moment, question the existence of G-d; the pain of the moment overrides all and blots out reason & rationality. The recent incident of the grief-stricken father of a dead Marine burning the van of the Marines who notified him comes to mind. It is natural that a person in those circumstances would feel hopeless and abandoned, even by G-d. The hard truth is that, as part of G-d's plan, we are all expendable--this is a very tough thing to accept. We just have to trust that there is a higher purpose. While this is not an easy thing, you would expect a seasoned man of G-d to keep this in perspective.
GREAT POSTER. THX.
1 I love the LORD, because He has heard My voice and my supplications.
2 Because He has inclined His ear to me,Therefore I will call upon Him as long as I live.
3 The pains of death surrounded me, And the pangs of Sheol laid hold of me; I found trouble and sorrow.
4 Then I called upon the name of the LORD: "O LORD, I implore You, deliver my soul!"
5 Gracious is the LORD, and righteous; Yes, our God is merciful.
6 The LORD preserves the simple;I was brought low, and He saved me.
7 Return to your rest, O my soul, For the LORD has dealt bountifully with you.
8 For You have delivered my soul from death, My eyes from tears, And my feet from falling.
9 I will walk before the LORD In the land of the living.
10 I believed, therefore I spoke, "I am greatly afflicted."
11 I said in my haste, "All men are liars."
12 What shall I render to the LORD For all His benefits toward me?
13 I will take up the cup of salvation, And call upon the name of the LORD.
14 I will pay my vows to the LORD Now in the presence of all His people.
15 Precious in the sight of the LORD Is the death of His saints.
16 O LORD, truly I am Your servant; I am Your servant, the son of Your maidservant; You have loosed my bonds.
17 I will offer to You the sacrifice of thanksgiving, And will call upon the name of the LORD.
18 I will pay my vows to the LORD Now in the presence of all His people,
19 In the courts of the LORD's house,In the midst of you, O Jerusalem.
Praise the LORD!
17 So when Jesus came, He found that he had already been in the tomb four days. 18 Now Bethany was near Jerusalem, about two miles away. 19 And many of the Jews had joined the women around Martha and Mary, to comfort them concerning their brother.
20 Now Martha, as soon as she heard that Jesus was coming, went and met Him, but Mary was sitting in the house. 21 Now Martha said to Jesus, "Lord, if You had been here, my brother would not have died. 22 But even now I know that whatever You ask of God, God will give You." 23 Jesus said to her, "Your brother will rise again." 24 Martha said to Him, "I know that he will rise again in the resurrection at the last day."
25 Jesus said to her, "I am the resurrection and the life. He who believes in Me, though he may die, he shall live. 26 And whoever lives and believes in Me shall never die. Do you believe this?" 27 She said to Him, "Yes, Lord, I believe that You are the Christ, the Son of God, who is to come into the world."
9 Now a great many of the Jews knew that He was there; and they came, not for Jesus' sake only, but that they might also see Lazarus, whom He had raised from the dead. 10 But the chief priests plotted to put Lazarus to death also, 11because on account of him many of the Jews went away and believed in Jesus.
24 "Then he cried and said, "Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus that he may dip the tip of his finger in water and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame.' 25 But Abraham said, "Son, remember that in your lifetime you received your good things, and likewise Lazarus evil things; but now he is comforted and you are tormented. 26 And besides all this, between us and you there is a great gulf fixed, so that those who want to pass from here to you cannot, nor can those from there pass to us.'
27 "Then he said, "I beg you therefore, father, that you would send him to my father's house, 28 for I have five brothers, that he may testify to them, lest they also come to this place of torment.' 29 Abraham said to him, "They have Moses and the prophets; let them hear them.' 30 And he said, "No, father Abraham; but if one goes to them from the dead, they will repent.' 31 But he said to him, "If they do not hear Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded though one rise from the dead."'