Free Republic
Browse · Search
News/Activism
Topics · Post Article

Skip to comments.

Clashes erupt at Turkey protest (over concessions to Orthodox Christians)
bbc.co.uk ^ | Monday, 6 September, 2004, 09:34 GMT 10:34 UK | BBC

Posted on 09/06/2004 5:11:21 PM PDT by Destro

Last Updated: Monday, 6 September, 2004, 09:34 GMT 10:34 UK

Clashes erupt at Turkey protest

Protesters burned an effigy of the patriarch

Police in Istanbul have clashed with Turkish right-wing demonstrators protesting against what they describe as concessions to Orthodox Christians.

Turkish media said the police used tear gas and batons to disperse hundreds of protesters marching towards the offices of Ecumenical Patriarch Bartholomew I. Earlier on Sunday, the crowd burned his effigy and threw stones at police.

Some nationalists have been angered by the government's decision to allow the reopening of an Orthodox seminary.

The Istanbul seminary, closed by the Turkish authorities in 1971, trained generations of church leaders, including Bartholomew.

EU membership

The BBC's James Ingham says reforms allowing more rights to Orthodox Christians are promoted by a government keen to show it is committed to a secular society as its possible membership of the European Union is being considered.

The EU's commissioner for enlargement, Guenter Verheugen, is beginning a four-day visit to Turkey, to assess whether the country is ready to start entry talks.

The EU has said it is keen to see wider religious freedom ahead of membership talks.

Christians are a minority in Turkey, but Istanbul remains the seat of the Ecumenical Patriarch - who is considered to be the spiritual leader of all Orthodox Christians.

But Nationalist leader Yuksel Kaleci said in a statement that Turkey "is making concession after concession to foreigners and especially to the Patriarchate".

The Patriarchate condemned the "violence" by demonstrators on Sunday. In a statement, it said the protests were the result of "the provocations of people intent on blocking Turkey's EU path".


TOPICS: Extended News; Foreign Affairs; News/Current Events
KEYWORDS: christians; eu; greece; orthodoxchristians; orthodoxy; turkey; turkishchristians

1 posted on 09/06/2004 5:11:22 PM PDT by Destro
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | View Replies]

To: Destro
turkishpress.com's headline spin: Turkish Nationalists Protest Interference Of Orthodox Patriarchate

AFP: 9/5/2004

ISTANBUL, Sept 5 (AFP) - Around 1,000 ultra-nationalist Turks protested outside the headquarters of the Greek Orthodox Church here Sunday, Turkish media reported, accusing it of interfering in Turkey's political affairs.

The protesters, called out by the youth movement of the Party for Nationalist Action (MHP), hurled stones at riot police before being subdued by tear gas and truncheons.

Pictures showed the protesters burning an effigy of Ecumenical Patriarch Bartholomew I, head of the northern Greek Orthodox church, and hanging him from a tree.

The Istanbul patriarchate, the headquarters of the Greek Orthodox Church is the last vestige of the medieval Byzantine empire which modern Greeks still revere.

The patriarchate has been pressuring Ankara for years to reopen a century-old seminary on the island of Heybeliada (Halki in Greek) off Istanbul, which was closed in 1971 during Greek-Turk tensions over Cyprus.

The European Union, critical of Turkey for failing to ensure the religious freedoms of non-Muslim minorities, is closely watching how Ankara is handling the requests for the reopening of the school.

The United States also supports the school's reopening.

A spokesman for the protesters said that Turkey had given in to the European Union and the United States over the patriarchate.

The Turkish government, keen to increase its prospects for joining the EU, has made it clear in the last year that it is considering reopening the religious school.

Northern Greece's churches are run from Istanbul because the region was part of the Ottoman Empire before it fell to Greece in 1912.

2 posted on 09/06/2004 5:14:08 PM PDT by Destro (Know your enemy! Help fight Islamic terrorism by visiting www.johnathangaltfilms.com)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: Destro
Perhaps the Kurds would be more favorably disposed to Christians than the Turks, especially if they converted to Christianity themselves and were rewarded with an independent Kurdistan.

Or perhaps Greece would like to re-establish its ancient sovereignty over Ionia, including Constantinople.

3 posted on 09/06/2004 5:18:35 PM PDT by Savage Beast (9/11 was never repeated--thanks to President Bush.)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: Destro

Islam is so tolerant isn't it?

Trukey is the nation Bush and other Islam appologists point to as the model for Islamic democracy. I think they need to point somehwere else.

Disclamer: I'm Greek Orthodox so my oppinion of Turkey considering their past treatment of Greeks is not "fair and balanced".


4 posted on 09/06/2004 5:19:03 PM PDT by dinok
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: Destro

Middle Eastern Islam seems to be basically legions of stupid kids lead from the sidelines by manipulative old cowards. I hope this gives the EU pause.


5 posted on 09/06/2004 5:20:01 PM PDT by dr_who_2
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: Savage Beast
"perhaps Greece would like to re-establish its ancient sovereignty over Ionia, including Constantinople."

While I would be pleased to see St Sophia's Church be the cathedral of my faith once more, I don't want to start a war with the Turks over it.

We are supposed to be civilized people and accept each other's faiths and respect each other's religius sites and freedoms.

Someone should remind the Turks that.

6 posted on 09/06/2004 5:23:19 PM PDT by dinok
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 3 | View Replies]

To: Destro

another turkish program of genocide brewing?


7 posted on 09/06/2004 6:36:19 PM PDT by aft_lizard (I actually voted for John Kerry before I voted against him)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: Savage Beast

A civil war in Turkey would invite Balkin Christians to take the city back.


8 posted on 09/06/2004 6:57:24 PM PDT by John Will
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 3 | View Replies]

To: John Will
A civil war in Turkey would invite Balkin Christians to take the city back.

They had a chance to do that in 1919. We should have supported them in the effort.
9 posted on 09/06/2004 7:34:58 PM PDT by Antoninus (Abortion; Euthanasia; Fetal Stem Cell Research; Human Cloning; Homo Marriage - NON-NEGOTIABLE ISSUES)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 8 | View Replies]

To: a_Turk

ping


10 posted on 09/06/2004 7:50:42 PM PDT by freedom44
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: dinok

Actually the fact that these demonstrators can freely demonstrate proves that Turkey is a democratic regime.

Even in the US you'll see hundreds gather for events such as the KKK, Neo-Nazi's, and other ridiculous organizations. This doesn't mean we support these groups, but they are free to demonstrate, same goes for Turkey.


11 posted on 09/06/2004 7:52:23 PM PDT by freedom44
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 4 | View Replies]

To: Antoninus

Back then, it wouldn't even have taken "support" from the West, just the removal of Great Britains' stupid interference with the Greek drive toward reclaiming Constantinople. Too bad Churchill was pro-Turkish at that moment in history, and messed up everything in the Middle East. GB's historical decline to irrelevance is only fair.


12 posted on 09/06/2004 7:57:25 PM PDT by wildandcrazyrussian
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 9 | View Replies]

To: Destro

Does Turkey seem to be slowly sliding down into Islamic fundamentalism?


13 posted on 09/06/2004 8:13:16 PM PDT by valkyrieanne
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: valkyrieanne
No and it is complicated. In this case it is Nationalist Turks who are not quite fundamentalists. The Turks were ruled by a system that resembles Saddam's Iraq Baath party. All ethnicities had to deny being anything but Turkish. Since Turkey was Muslim (but an Islam that serves the nationalist state) that meant Christians were hard pressed - not because it was an issue of them being Christian but of not being part of the official religion of state.

That is why the Turks went after their minorities in the start of the 20th century like the Greeks and Armenians. Because they could not be assimilated no so much so that they were Christians, IMHO.

Turkey is an artifical nation like Iraq. It is made up of dozens of nationalities. The only way Ataturk the modern founder of secular Turkey could for a state was to abolish all differences and force everyone to call themselves Turks and adopt the state religion of Islam. If they could not and would not they were seen as a threat to be removed. Turks inner fear is that one day Turkey will be broken up when Turks start asserting their true banned ethnicity and stop calling themselves the generic "Turk".

14 posted on 09/06/2004 8:38:21 PM PDT by Destro (Know your enemy! Help fight Islamic terrorism by visiting www.johnathangaltfilms.com)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 13 | View Replies]

To: Destro

Burning effigies and protesting against Christians? Sounds like Democrats.


15 posted on 09/06/2004 10:34:44 PM PDT by HowlinglyMind-BendingAbsurdity
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: valkyrieanne

Religious authorities nearly always find a functional role in nationalistic movements, especially in the balkans and the middle east. This is true no matter what the religion.

Some heads of religion - namely the Greek orthodox and the Armenian orthodox played an active part in the planning and execution of numerous revolts during the 18th and 19th century, while enjoying the full protection of the Ottoman state. Other, sunni and shiite leaning bodies did similar deeds working for the Persians or Arabs.

The Muslim sects worked especially hard to bring about a fundamentalist regime in Turkey, during the aftermath of the first world war.

As a result, all independent Muslim religious sects were banned and all leadership of religion was brought under the umbrella of the law at the founding of the republic. As a result, the Christian leadership has been almost inexistent politically, as have the Muslim indepentent sects.

Yet, just like many here in the US still are under the influence of the truths and lies spread about the Turks during the four previous centuries and - as you can see in these posts - fear a return to (quasi) religious rule there, many nationalists in Turkey fear that the intrigue of the Orthodox denominations will return based on centuries of background.

And as you read in even these posts, there are those who openly announce their desire for the partition of Turkey. The result is that the good Patriarch must pay for the sins of others, lambasted by those who cannot know better, due to their own limitations.


16 posted on 09/07/2004 5:03:28 AM PDT by a_Turk (Temperance, Fortitude, Prudence, Justice, Comitas, Firmitas, Gravitas, Humanitas, Industria..)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 13 | View Replies]

To: Destro

>> Turkey is an artifical nation like Iraq. It is made up of dozens of nationalities.

Sounds like the USA?

You're one of the agitators, snickering in his dark corner.

>> IMHO

you make me laugh.


17 posted on 09/07/2004 5:07:53 AM PDT by a_Turk (Temperance, Fortitude, Prudence, Justice, Comitas, Firmitas, Gravitas, Humanitas, Industria..)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 14 | View Replies]

To: a_Turk
Turkey is not like the USA at all. If it were you would have had the State of Thrace, The State of Smyrna, the State of Pontus, the State of Trebizond, the State of Galatia, The State of Cappadocia, etc. Instead you have a central authority in Ankara built around the principal of the strong man (Leader or Fuhrer principal) in Attaturk-at least until his death when power past from him to the Military General Staff. We are now in the post Attaturk period.
18 posted on 09/07/2004 6:17:53 AM PDT by Destro (Know your enemy! Help fight Islamic terrorism by visiting www.johnathangaltfilms.com)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 17 | View Replies]

To: a_Turk
And as you read in even these posts, there are those who openly announce their desire for the partition of Turkey. The result is that the good Patriarch must pay for the sins of others, lambasted by those who cannot know better, due to their own limitations.

I hope you don't think I was "lambasting..."

I know that we in the US tend to see everything through the lens of "religious freedom," not keeping in mind how politics, statecraft, and religion are intertwined.

19 posted on 09/07/2004 8:46:55 AM PDT by valkyrieanne
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 16 | View Replies]

To: Destro; a_Turk
Turks inner fear is that one day Turkey will be broken up when Turks start asserting their true banned ethnicity and stop calling themselves the generic "Turk".

Correct me if I'm wrong, but my understanding is that not only is Turkey a country, but there is a distinct "Turkic" or "Turkish" ethnic group as well as Turkic languages. People ethnically Turkish can be of different religions.

*Is* Islam the "state religion" of Turkey? I thought the state was supposed to be secular.

Not trying to start a flame war; just asking, because I don't know that much about it.

20 posted on 09/07/2004 8:51:08 AM PDT by valkyrieanne
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 14 | View Replies]

To: valkyrieanne

Look at the Turkish Flag - the star and crescent of Islam.


21 posted on 09/07/2004 8:53:49 AM PDT by Destro (Know your enemy! Help fight Islamic terrorism by visiting www.johnathangaltfilms.com)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 20 | View Replies]

To: valkyrieanne

The Republic of Turkey is secular, there is no state religion.

Our flag is our centuries old battle flag..


22 posted on 09/07/2004 9:49:54 AM PDT by a_Turk (Temperance, Fortitude, Prudence, Justice, Comitas, Firmitas, Gravitas, Humanitas, Industria..)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 20 | View Replies]

To: Destro

>> If it were you would have had the State of Thrace, The State of Smyrna, the State of Pontus, the State of Trebizond, the State of Galatia, The State of Cappadocia, etc.

Bull.. Does the USA have the states of Sioux, Apache, Cherokee, or Navajo?

LMAO..


23 posted on 09/07/2004 9:51:20 AM PDT by a_Turk (Temperance, Fortitude, Prudence, Justice, Comitas, Firmitas, Gravitas, Humanitas, Industria..)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 18 | View Replies]

To: a_Turk

No reservations for the Greeks or Armenians either - so not like USA :)


24 posted on 09/07/2004 10:03:54 AM PDT by Destro (Know your enemy! Help fight Islamic terrorism by visiting www.johnathangaltfilms.com)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 23 | View Replies]

To: wildandcrazyrussian

Yeah, that stupid drive to make Constanople an "internatonal city"


25 posted on 09/07/2004 12:18:48 PM PDT by John Will
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 12 | View Replies]

To: Destro

BTTT


26 posted on 09/07/2004 12:21:57 PM PDT by Fiddlstix (This Tagline for sale. (Presented by TagLines R US))
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: Destro

Sure there are reservations.. Just outside our borders.


27 posted on 09/07/2004 12:40:40 PM PDT by a_Turk (Temperance, Fortitude, Prudence, Justice, Comitas, Firmitas, Gravitas, Humanitas, Industria..)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 24 | View Replies]

To: a_Turk

Depends on whose borders they will be in a generation as the EU decentralization policies takes hold.


28 posted on 09/07/2004 1:06:37 PM PDT by Destro (Know your enemy! Help fight Islamic terrorism by visiting www.johnathangaltfilms.com)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 27 | View Replies]

To: Destro

Let's do the old Greek "We'll have to see" "Let's see what's gonna happen" "Let's see what they're gonna do" thing.

You and your buds keep up this dumb-ass rhetoric and the minions will burn many more effigies..


29 posted on 09/07/2004 3:25:05 PM PDT by a_Turk (Temperance, Fortitude, Prudence, Justice, Comitas, Firmitas, Gravitas, Humanitas, Industria..)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 28 | View Replies]

To: a_Turk

Thanks! I always appreciate hearing your comments about Turkey.


30 posted on 09/07/2004 3:54:41 PM PDT by valkyrieanne
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 22 | View Replies]

To: a_Turk

Greece will not be responsible for a thing. It is what the EU does. Note Scotland and England devolution.


31 posted on 09/07/2004 7:52:22 PM PDT by Destro (Know your enemy! Help fight Islamic terrorism by visiting www.johnathangaltfilms.com)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 29 | View Replies]

To: Destro; All
Origin of the Crescent and Star in the Turkish Flag
32 posted on 09/08/2004 3:57:56 AM PDT by Turk2 (Dulce bellum inexpertis)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 21 | View Replies]

To: Destro
>> Greece will not be responsible for a thing.

Here we go as usual. You've finally and as usual managed to veer away from the points in the news article, which is a report on some sort of reaction to the Greek orthodox church.

Too bad the patriarch has to pay once again for the irresponsible an bombastic rhetoric of Greeks in Greece or disillusioned diaspora Greeks elsewhere.
33 posted on 09/08/2004 4:20:01 AM PDT by a_Turk (Temperance, Fortitude, Prudence, Justice, Comitas, Firmitas, Gravitas, Humanitas, Industria..)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 31 | View Replies]

To: valkyrieanne

Check #32 for a research paper on our flag.


34 posted on 09/08/2004 4:21:02 AM PDT by a_Turk (Temperance, Fortitude, Prudence, Justice, Comitas, Firmitas, Gravitas, Humanitas, Industria..)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 32 | View Replies]

To: Turk2; a_Turk
Fascinating article. One thing I found interesting is that "tengu" is also the Japanese word for a sky bird/god.

In addition, the old Turkish color symbolism seems to have been used in a lot of fairy tales ancient and modern. I was especially intrigued by the north/black, east/blue, south/red, and west/white color symbols. In L. Frank Baum's modern fairy tale The Wizard of Oz, Oz's color scheme is similar: blue/East, yellow/West, red/South, and purple/North.

But back to the point at hand: what I got from the article is that the crescent moon/star image is an ancient one that goes back to the proto-Indo-European people of Central Asia thousands of years before the rise of Islam.

35 posted on 09/08/2004 7:26:05 AM PDT by valkyrieanne
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 32 | View Replies]

To: valkyrieanne; Turk2; a_Turk

Turkish is related to Korean and Japanese. Barbarian invasions and migrations brought them to the civilized West.


36 posted on 09/08/2004 7:34:09 AM PDT by Destro (Know your enemy! Help fight Islamic terrorism by visiting www.johnathangaltfilms.com)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 35 | View Replies]

To: valkyrieanne

The star and crecent is the symbol if Islam - its cross if you will- origins probably with the pagan goddess Ishtar.


37 posted on 09/08/2004 7:35:40 AM PDT by Destro (Know your enemy! Help fight Islamic terrorism by visiting www.johnathangaltfilms.com)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 35 | View Replies]

To: a_Turk

What did the Greeks have to do with any of this? This is between Turkey and the EU.


38 posted on 09/08/2004 7:39:52 AM PDT by Destro (Know your enemy! Help fight Islamic terrorism by visiting www.johnathangaltfilms.com)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 33 | View Replies]

To: Destro

What is Turkey and the EU? Burning the effigy of the patriarch?


39 posted on 09/08/2004 10:31:57 AM PDT by a_Turk (Temperance, Fortitude, Prudence, Justice, Comitas, Firmitas, Gravitas, Humanitas, Industria..)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 38 | View Replies]

To: valkyrieanne

The moon, the sun and Destro's all seeing (*) blind eye.

:)))


40 posted on 09/08/2004 10:34:23 AM PDT by a_Turk (Temperance, Fortitude, Prudence, Justice, Comitas, Firmitas, Gravitas, Humanitas, Industria..)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 35 | View Replies]

To: a_Turk; valkyrieanne
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ishtar

On monuments and seal-cylinders Inanna/Ishtar appears frequently with bow and arrow, though also simply clad in long robes with a crown on her head and an eight-rayed star as her symbol. This star, joined with the crescent moon, became a symbol of the Ottoman Empire and later of Islam.

41 posted on 09/08/2004 10:40:27 AM PDT by Destro (Know your enemy! Help fight Islamic terrorism by visiting www.johnathangaltfilms.com)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 40 | View Replies]

To: a_Turk

I am laughing to think how the Greeks react to opening a mosque in Athens. An appropriate quid pro quo is it not?


42 posted on 09/08/2004 12:13:56 PM PDT by nomoreheroes
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 29 | View Replies]

To: Destro; a_Turk
Turkish is related to Korean and Japanese. Barbarian invasions and migrations brought them to the civilized West.

Yes, the article also mentioned an origin myth involving a sun goddess. The Japanese have it too - the myth about descent of the Yamato people from the sun goddess Ameratasu Omikami.

A_Turk, what does Islam say about the origin of the crescent moon and star as Islamic symbols?

43 posted on 09/08/2004 3:56:01 PM PDT by valkyrieanne
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 36 | View Replies]

To: valkyrieanne

Nothing that I am aware of in the Koran..


44 posted on 09/08/2004 7:32:40 PM PDT by a_Turk (Temperance, Fortitude, Prudence, Justice, Comitas, Firmitas, Gravitas, Humanitas, Industria..)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 43 | View Replies]

Disclaimer: Opinions posted on Free Republic are those of the individual posters and do not necessarily represent the opinion of Free Republic or its management. All materials posted herein are protected by copyright law and the exemption for fair use of copyrighted works.

Free Republic
Browse · Search
News/Activism
Topics · Post Article

FreeRepublic, LLC, PO BOX 9771, FRESNO, CA 93794
FreeRepublic.com is powered by software copyright 2000-2008 John Robinson