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Vets refuse to forgive Kerry for antiwar acts
Washington Times ^ | February 20, 2004 | By Charles Hurt

Posted on 09/07/2004 1:24:21 PM PDT by Calpernia

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To: Calpernia

Testimony of Michael D. Benge

before the House International Relations Committee

Chaired by the Honorable Benjamin A. Gilman,

November 4, 1999.

My name is Michael D. Benge. While serving as a civilian Economic Development Officer in the Central Highlands of South Viet Nam, I was captured by the North Vietnamese during the Tet Offensive on January 28, 1968. I was held in numerous camps in South Viet Nam, Cambodia, Laos and North Viet Nam. I was a POW for over five years, and spent 27 months in solitary confinement, one year in a "black box," and one year in a cage in Cambodia. I served for almost 11 years in Viet Nam. I was released during Operation Homecoming in 1973. I am a Board Member of the National Alliance of Families for the Return of America's Missing Servicemen. And, I am a POW/MIA activist; that is, I am one who is actively seeking the truth regarding the fate of our Prisoners of War and Missing in Action.

I was not tortured by the Cubans, nor was I part of the "Cuban Program." There were 19 American POWs that I know of who were tortured by the Cubans in Hanoi during the Vietnam War. These brave men include Colonel Jack Bomar and Captain Ray Vohden, who will testify, and also Commander Al Carpenter, who is with us today. They named their torturers "Fidel," "Chico" and "Pancho." The torture took place in a POW camp called the Zoo, and the Vietnamese camp commander was a man they called the "Lump." He was called that because of the presence of a rather large fatty tumor in the middle of his forehead.

No, I was not tortured by Cubans in Vietnam, but I was interrogated by the "Lump," and a person who appeared to be a Latino and who spoke a few words of Spanish to the "Lump" during my interrogation in the early part of 1970. Upon my return to the U.S., I was shown a picture taken in Cuba of the "Lump," who was with an American anti-war group. Yes, it was the same person who had interrogated me in 1970. I was told by a Congressional Investigator that he was the man who was in charge of funneling Soviet KGB money to American anti-war groups and activists, such as Jane Fonda. After researching my paper, this made more sense, for who would be better suited to liaison with the Cubans. This was my first piece of the puzzle.

I decided to research the "Cuban Program" after repeated claims by the Administration, Senators John McCain and John Kerry, Ambassador Pete Peterson, and members of the Department of Defense (DOD) that the Vietnamese Government was "cooperating fully" in resolving the POW/MIA issue. This is far from the truth.

If the Vietnamese communists were fully cooperating as purported, they would have told us the true fate of the 173 U.S. servicemen who were last known to be alive and in the hands of the North Vietnamese communists. They would have helped us resolve the fate of over 600 American servicemen who were lost in Laos, of which over 80% were lost in areas under the total control of the North Vietnamese. If the Vietnamese were fully cooperating, we would not be here today, for they would have revealed the names of the Cubans "Fidel," "Chico" and "Pancho," who were responsible for the torture of 19 American POWs; beating one so severly that it resulted in his death.

Upon their return to the U.S., the POWs in the "Cuban Program" were told by our government not to tell of their torture by the Cubans, but they resisted, as they had in the "Cuban Program, and some broke the silence. Regardless, the "Cuban Program" was swept under the rug by the U.S. Government.

Thus, I chose to research the "Cuba Program"--one segment of the POW/MIA issue--to prove my point that the Vietnamese communists were not fully cooperating as purported. I first produced a draft paper in 1996 for presentation at the annual meeting of the National Alliance of Families.

Commander Chip Beck, who at that time was with the Department of Defense POW/Missing Personnel Office (DPMO), became interested in my research, and tried to find out what DPMO knew. He was basically told by DPMO to back off. Congressman Bob Dornan also became interested. He held hearings, and requested that DPMO provide them with their analysis of the Cuban Program. A compilation was presented, and Mr. Robert Destatte from DPMO testified as to his and DPMO's analysis. Commander Beck also testified; after which, he was told by DPMO that his services were no longer needed.

With the release of DPMO's compilation and analysis, and the declassification of additional documents related to Cuba's involvement in Vietnam, I reassessed this information. In the DPMO compilation, there were memoranda stating that the CIA had identified Cuban military attaches Eduardo Morjon Esteves and Luis Perez Jaen with backgrounds that seemed to correspond with information on "Fidel" and "Chico" provided by returned POWs. Reportedly, Esteves served under diplomatic cover as a brigadier general at the United Naions in New York during 1977-78. Documents indicate that the FBI and DIA were "tasked" to ID these people; however, neither the CIA, the DIA, nor the FBI could produce a decent picture for identification by the returned POWs. It makes one wonder as to their level of effort.

Nonetheless, just from my reading the documents in the DPMO compilation, I found the profile of a man that that seemed to match almost perfectly the POWs' description of the Cuban called "Chico." However, this profile also partially fit the POWs' characterization of "Fidel." The profile was that of Major Fernando Vecino Alegret.

On August 22, 1999, the Miami Herald published an article on the "Cuban Program" based partially on my report. However, the reporter got it wrong and said that I believed Raul Valdes Vivo, the DGI agent attached to COSVN (ref. my submitted report), might be "Fidel." Independent of my report, a Cuban exile in the Miami area identified Fernando Vecino Alegret as "Fidel," based on information emanating from contacts within the exile community and Cuba. He also produced a picture of Alegret that was subsequentially identified by Col. Hubbard, who said he was 99% sure he was "Fidel." Alegret is now Cuba's Minister of Education, and Fidel Castro has issued a denial that Alegret was ever in Vietnam. However, DIA documentation in DPMO's compilation proves otherwise.

In Mr. Destatte's testimony, he claims he "was never responsible for any investigations or analysis related to the "Cuban Program." "Responsible" is the key word here that Mr. Destatte parses.

The Administration and the Department of Defense POW/Missing Personnel Office (DPMO) has mastered the art of obfuscation. I grew up on a farm in the West, and I used to try to catch greased pigs at the county fair, and I can assure you that trying to pin down DPMO to truthful facts is sometims much more difficult than trying to catch a greased pig.

Mr. Chuck Towbridge of DPMO is also implicated as participating in the investigation and analysis; however, it has never been revealed who was in fact in charge. One would hope that someone at DPMO is in charge.

Mr. Destatte testified to DPMO's conclusions and that the "Cuban Program" was nothing more than a program "to provide instruction in basic English to PAVN [North Vietnamese Army] personnel working with American prisoners."

I have taught English to Vietnamese, and have been tortured by the Vietnamese, and I can tell the difference between the two. One might conclude from Mr. Destatte's testimony that neither he nor Mr. Towbridge know the difference. I can also read English and understand what I read. One might also conclude that they may have a problem here too. Perhaps they should have taken basic English instruction from the Cubans.

Mr. Destatte also had the audacity to testify that the Vietnamese high-command was unaware that the Cubans were torturing American POWs, and it was stopped once they found out. However, it is crystal clear from the POW debriefings, as well as the Air Force Intelligence Analysis, that the "Cuban Program" was sanctioned by the Vietnamese. This then leads one to ask, "How did Mr. Destatte reach his conclusion?"

Mr. Destatte reached his conclusion by asking North Vietnamese communist Colonel Pham Teo, who told Destatte he was in South Viet Nam in 1967-68 and knew nothing of the "Cuban Program." However, he had heard rumors that it was an English language instruction program that had "gone awry." Mr. Destatte testified that the Vietnamese explanation "is...fully consistent with what we know about the conduct of the Cubans in question."

Evidently, Destatte chose to believe a Vietnamese communist colonel over American POWs who had been brutally tortured in the "Cuban Program" and had clearly stated in their debriefings that the Vietnamese were well aware of and participated in their torture. Destatte choses to believe a member of a draconian regime, which had systematically murdered 70-80,000 political prisoners after they took over power in Vietnam in 1975, and who had broken every agreement ever made with the U.S. and South Vietnamese governments.

What bewilders me, as it should you, is that Destatte's superiors at DPMO had the audacity to let him testify before Congress to this foolishness. This exemplifies the quality of DPMO's investigation and analysis of the "Cuban Program."

I am neither a trained investigator nor an analyst, but I do know how to research. And I have concluded that at best, DPMO's investigation and analysis of the "Cuban Program" was not up to professional standards, and DPMO's conclusions are shameful! However, they did a great job of obfuscating the issue.

Since the "Cuban Program" was sanctioned by the Vietnamese, what then was the diving force behind it?" According to POW debriefings, supported by CIA and other reports, the "Cuba Program" was part of a Hanoi medical university's "psychological study." It was conducted to obtain full compliance from the American POWs, and to force them to make propaganda statements against the American government and the war in Vietnam. The real reason for the termination of the "Cuban Program" was so "Fidel," "Chico" and "Pancho" could return to Cuba as planned in time to prepare a presentation for the October 18-21, 1968, communist internationale Second Symposium Against Yankee Gonocide In Vietnam. This symposium in Cuba was a continuum of the Bertrand Russel War Crimes Tribunal kangaroo court and dog-and-pony show held in Denmark the previous year.

My paper is based partially on what DPMO gave to Congressman Dornan's Committee, as well as on documents obtained from the DIA and the CIA through the Freedom of Information Act, and it is throughly referenced. I would like to submit a copy of it and the referenced material to the Committee at this time for the record.

However, I have just scratched the surface, but I found enough documents to indicate that there should be a plethora of others related to the Cuban involvement in Vietnam if they are ever declassified as two U.S. Presidents have decreed. I also recommend that this matter be thoroughly investigated by professional investigators, not DPMO analysts.

Besides evidence contrary to DPMO's stated position on the "Cuban Program," the documents I examined reveal:

the possibility that a number of American POWs from the Vietnam War had been held in Los Maristas, a secret Cuban prison run by Castro's G-2 intelligence service. The Cuban who claims to have seen them later escaped and made it to the United States, and was reportedly debriefed by the FBI;

a Cuban Official had offered the State Department to ransom some American POWs from Vietnam, but there was no follow up;
that Cubans, along with Russians, guarded a number of American POWs in Laos;

the Cubans photographed a number of American POWs in Vietnam, Laos and Cambodia;

that besides the "Cuban Program," the Cubans were very heavily involved in Vietnam. They had several thousand "engineers" in Vietnam constructing, repairing and guarding the Ho Chi Minh Trail where a large number of Americans disappeared; the possibility that American POWs were "treated" in Cuban hospitals in Hanoi;

the Cubans had a permenant DGI agent assigned to the COSVN headquarters in Cambodia, the North Vietnamese command center directing the war in South Vietnam. This is a fact not found in the history books on the Vietnam War. He was assigned there on the insistance of Rauol Castro, the head of Cuba's military and the brother of the real Fidel. This fact belies Mr. Destatte's testimony that "the Soviet and Cuban governments did not successfully dictate policies or actions to the North Vietnamese government;"

two unrelated documents telling of American POWs being taken from Vietnam to Cuba; the Cubans were also actively engaged in subversive activities, infiltrating a number of communist youth into the U.S., and were funneling KGB money through Vietnamese communist agents to antiwar groups and individuals in the U.S.; as recent as 1996, the Vietnamese trained Cuban Special Forces to undertake limited attacks in the USA

Instead of hiring analyists at DPMO, DOD should hire some good professional investigators, such as former FBI or police investigators, and some people who know how to do systematic research. However, everytime DPMO gets good ones, it seems to find a way to get rid of them.

My paper raises more questions than it answers, but only history will prove me right or wrong; however, I think I am on the right track. Only through full disclosure by the U.S. government agencies, which were gathering information on the depth of Cuban involvement in the Vietnam war and with American POWs, will we know the truth.

As you can see from my document, the Cubans were heavily involved in the Vietnam War. They were in charge of building and maintaining a good portion of the Ho Chi Minh Trail. Recently, I was invited as a representative of the National Alliance of Families to a briefing at DPMO by its head, Bob Jones. Among things he discussed was his proposal for DPMO to sponsor a meeting between the U.S., Vietnam, Cambodia and Laos to discuss American Servicemen lost along the Ho Chi Minh Trail. I suggested to Mr. Jones that he should also invite Cuba to the conference, for they were heavily involved. He told me that I was rediculous, for the Cubans weren't involved in Vietnam. I recommended to him that he read both the material presented to Congress on the Cuban Program and Raul Valdes Vivo's book.

I was brought up with old fashoned values. My mother taught me at a young age that no matter how hard you search for the truth, you won't find it unless you want to.

We are not seeking revenge. We will leave that issue to the courts. We are also not seeking to get someone fired, we leave that up to you to judge. We are only seeking an honest accounting for the POW/MIAs. We, like every American should, only seek honest answers from our government and its representatives, and competent investigations as to the fate of the POW/MIAs so that their families might find closure to their long suffering grief.

Ignorance? Arrogance? Disinterest? Lack of caring? Incompetence? Obfuscation? I rest my case.

Respectfully Submitted

Michael D. Benge
2300 Pimmit Dr., #604-W
Falls Church, VA 22043

Ph: (703) 875-4063 (W)
(703) 698-8256 (H)


For efforts in rescuing several Americans prior to capture, he received the State Department's highest award for heroism and a second one for valor. He also received three of South Viet Nam's highest medals for civilians.

201 posted on 09/08/2004 8:02:45 AM PDT by Calpernia ("People never like what they don't understand")
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To: Calpernia

Cuban War Crimes Against American POWs

During the Vietnam War*


Cuban officials, under diplomatic cover in Hanoi during the Vietnam War, brutally tortured and killed American POWs whom they beat senseless in a research program "sanctioned by the North Vietnamese."(1) This was dubbed the "Cuba Program" by the Department of Defense (DOD) and the CIA, and it involved 19 American POWs (some reposts state 20). Recent declassified secret CIA and DOD intelligence documents, obtained under the Freedom of Information Act, reveal the extent of Cuba's involvement with American POWs captured in Vietnam. A Defense Intelligence Agency (DIA) report states that "The objective of the interrogators was to obtain the total submission of the prisoners..."(2)

According to former POW Air Force Colonel Donald "Digger" Odell, "two POWs left behind in the camp were 'broken' but alive when he and other prisoners were released [1973 Operation Homecoming]. ... They were too severely tortured by Cuban interrogators" to be released. The Vietnamese didn't want the world to see what they had done to them."(3)

POWs released during "Operation Homecoming" in 1973 "were told not to talk about third-country interrogations. .... This thing is very sensitive with all kinds of diplomatic ramifications."(4) Hence, the torture and murder of American POWs by the Cubans was swept under the rug by the U.S. Government.

The "Cuban Program"

The "Cuban Program" was initiated around August 1967 at the Cu Loc POW camp known as "The Zoo", a former French movie studio on the southwestern edge of Hanoi. The American POWs gave their Cuban torturers the

names "Fidel," "Chico," "Pancho" and "Garcia." The Vietnamese camp commander was given the name "The Lump" because of a fatty tumor growth in the middle of his forehead.

Intelligence and debriefing reports reveal that testing "torture methods were of primary interest" of the "Cuban Program." The Cuban leader of the "Cuban Program" ["Fidel"] was described in debriefing reports as "a professional interrogator," and a second team member was described as looking like a Czech ["Chico"]. "The Cubans has (sic) the authority to order NVNS [North Vietnamese] to torture American PWs [POWs]." The Vietnamese "catered" to the Cubans.(5)

According to a 20 January 1976 deposition, Marge Van Beck of DIA/DI, Resources and Installation Division, MIA/PW Branch, states that she was told by the "Air Force that the CIA had identified FIDEL."(6) Since the CIA and the FBI has not released all documentation relevant to the "Cuban Program", there were no copies of any photographs accompanying the Defense Department's September 11, 1996, report to Congress, Cuban Program Information.(5)

Several other documents corroborate that the CIA analysts identified two Cuban military attaches, Eduardo Morjon Esteves and Luis Perez Jaen, who had backgrounds that seemed to correspond with information on "Fidel" and "Chico" supplied by returning POWs.(7) Reportedly, in 1977-78, Esteves served under diplomatic cover as a brigadier general at the United Nations in New York and no attempt was made to either arrest or expel him.(8)

However, unless the Cubans were overconfident, it is highly unlikely that those who participated in the "Cuban Program" would have used their actual names when they went to Vietnam, since it is standard practice in undercover operations to use new identities. According to an expert on Cuba, "Fidel's" profile fits that of Cuban Dr. Miguel Angel Bustamente-O'Leary, President of the Cuban Medical Association. [DPMO's compilation lists a Professor Jose Bustamante, who was the president of the Pan-American Medical Confederation.] Dr. Miguel Bustamente is said to be an expert at extracting confessions through torture and he was compared to Nazi Dr. Joseph Mengale.(9)

"Chico's" profile fits that of Major Fernando VECINO Alegret, described in two intelligence reports as being "un-Cuban in appearance makes [sic] one wonder if he was a Cuban, or a block officer (possible Czech) in Cuban uniform." "He has studied in the USSR," and "...his Spanish...does not sound like Cuban Spanish." He was active in the Rebel Youth Association (AJR) and Union of Young Communists (UYC).(5b) His background would give him a natural tie-in to the international communist youth training center and the Vietnamese interrogation center in Cuba. It would also explain the observation of and participation in the "Cuban Program" by young Vietnamese officer trainees (see below).

According to POW debriefing reports, "The Lump" told a group of POWs that the 'Cuban Program'...was a Hanoi University Psychological Study."(5c) [Also see section on Vietnamese and Soviet Bloc Research on American POWs]

The torture and murder of American POWs in Vietnam by Cubans ets an unconscionable precedent and is in direct violation of the Geneva Convention on Prisoners of War that the North Vietnamese communists signed.

The Beatings

"Fidel" called one of the American POWs the "Faker". However, he wasn't faking it. He was one of the three American POWs who had already been beaten senseless by "Fidel" and his cohorts.

The sight of the prisoner stunned Bomar, he stood transfixed, trying to make himself believe that human beings could so batter another human being. The man could barely walk; he shuffled slowly, painfully. His clothes were torn to shreds. He was bleeding everywhere, terribly swollen, and a dirty, yellowish black and purple from head to toe. The man's head was down; he made no attempt to look at anyone. He had been through much more than the day's beatings. His body was ripped and torn everywhere; "hell- cuffs" appeared almost to have severed the wrists, strap marks still wound around the arms all the way to the shoulders, slivers of bamboo were embedded in the bloodied shins and there were what appeared to be tread marks from the hose across the chest, back and legs. Fidel smashed a fist into the man's face, driving him against the wall. Then he was brought to the center of the room and made to get down onto his knees. Screaming in rage, Fidel took a length of rubber hose from a guard and lashed it as hard as he could into the man's face. The prisoner did not react; he did not cry out or even blink an eye. Again and again, a dozen times, smashed the man's face with the hose. He was never released.(10)

Air Force ace Major James Kasler was also tortured by "Fidel" for days on end during June 1968. "Fidel" beat Kasler across the buttocks with a large truck fan belt until "he tore my rear end to shreds." For one three-day period, Kasler was beaten with the fan belt every hour from 6 a.m. to 10 p.m. and kept awake at night. "My mouth was so bruised that I could not open my teeth for five days." After one beating, Kasler's buttocks, lower back, and legs hung in shreds. The skin had been entirely whipped away and the area was a bluish, purplish, greenish mass of bloody raw meat.(11)

DPMO's Evaluation

The "Cuban Program" was evaluated by two of the Department of Defense POW/Missing Personnel Office's (DPMO) chief analysts Robert Destatte and Chuck Towbridge. In an email to Commander Chip Beck, an intelligence officer who at the time was working at DPMO, Destatte said he had concluded that the "Cuban Program" was nothing more than a program "to provide instruction in basic English to PAVN [North Vietnamese Army] personnel working with American prisoners."(12) According to Destatte, it was an English language program that had gone awry.

Destatte also has the audacity to claim that the Vietnamese were unaware of the "Cuban Program," and it was stopped once the Vietnamese found out that "Fidel" and the others were torturing the American POWs. However, the evidence that Destatte studied in compiling the report to Congress belies his assertion. It is very clear from the POWs' debriefing reports that the camp commander, "The Lump", guards and various other Vietnamese cadre were present during torture sessions.

Destatte also professes, "The Vietnamese explanation is plausible and fully consistent with what we know about the conduct of the Cubans in question..."(12) And how had Destatte reached his conclusion? Destatte asked the North Vietnamese communists, and this is what they told him! These are the very same people who broke every agreement they made with the United States, and who systematically murdered over 80,000 political prisoners after the communist takeover of South Viet Nam in 1975. A military historian once told Commander Beck not to underestimate "dumb," and Beck said Destatte would have to be brain-dead, however, to be that dumb.(13)

It is evident that DOD's analysis of the "Cuban Program" is incomplete for it did not examine the possible link to a Hanoi University research study, nor was there any investigation of Cuba's role in maintaining the Ho Chi Minh Trail where numerous American servicemen were captured. In early 1999, DPMO's chief, Bob Jones, told members of the organizations representing the families of POW/MIAs that he had proposed a meeting among Vietnam, Laos and Cambodian officials to discuss the fate of American POW/MIAs. The author, representing the National Alliance of Families, suggested that Cuba should also be invited to participate, since they were responsible for the "Cuban Program" as well as for maintaining a good share of the Ho Chi Minh Trail where many servicemen became MIA. Jones retorted that my suggestion was ridiculous for there was no evidence that the Cubans were ever involved. ["See no evil, hear no evil, speak no evil," author.]

Other Cuban Involvement With POWs

Documents reveal that Cubans not only tortured and killed a number of American POWs in Vietnam, but may have also taken several POWs to Cuba in the mid-1960s. The POWs, mostly pilots, were reportedly imprisoned in Las Maristas, a secret Cuban prison run by Castro's G-2 intelligence service. The source of this information reportedly was debriefed by the FBI; however, this debriefing report was not in DPMO's report to Congress, and no evidence has surfaced that there was any other follow up.(14)

One intelligence source reportedly interviewed "Fidel", "Chico" and "Pancho" after they returned from Hanoi to Cuba and said they claimed that their real job was to act as gate-keepers to select American POWs who could aid international communism.(16)

According to a DIA "asset", Hanoi made "a political investment in all cases where prisoners [could] be ideologically turned around in order to someday serve its designs in behalf of international communism."(17) This is corroborated by several other intelligence reports. One, a CIA briefing memo, reveals that "As of September 1967 [redacted] a great deal of proselytizing of American pilots was being carried out in an effort to try to convince them to go to other communist countries as advisors. [redacted] This was disclosed during an official Party briefing [redacted]. The North Vietnamese claimed the communist countries needed the advice of American pilots to counter any attack which the U.S. might make against the communist countries."(18) This was the same time period that the "Cuban Program" was in full operation.

DPMO's analyst Bob Destatte wrongly concluded that the "Cuban Program" was terminated by the Vietnamese in August 1968 because of "Fidel's" excesses in torturing the American POWs. This is far from the truth, for the Vietnamese communists routinely continued to torture American POWs in other camps long after the "program" was terminated.

Besides being part of a medical study linked to the University in Hanoi, Cuba was carrying out an aggressive propaganda campaign and other subversive activities against the U.S. According to the Cuban paper El Mundo, in August 1968, Professor Miguel A. D'Estafano, who headed the Cuban Solidarity with Vietnam Committee, "prolonged his stay in the DRV to complete a program with various organizations and institutions to collect extensive information that can serve as the basis for the second symposium against genocide in Vietnam..." According to POW debriefings, a Cuban (presumably D'Estafano) showed up at the Zoo during that time and "Fidel," "Chico" and "Pancho" left with him. Their return was timed so they could prepare a presentation for the communist internationale Second Symposium Against Yankee Genocide in Vietnam held in Cuba, October 18-21, 1968.(19) There, films and tapes were shown of the research on American POWs in the "Cuban Program" that served to boost the morale of the communists that the war in Vietnam was being won.(1) [Similar to the Bertrand Russell War Crimes Tribunal "kangaroo court" and "dog and pony show" held in Denmark in July 1967.(20)]

"Fidel", "Chico" and "Pancho" weren't the only Cubans who were involved with American POWs. As part of their propaganda program, Dr. Fernando Barral, a Spanish-born psychologist, interviewed Lt. Cmdr. John Sidney McCain Jr. (now a U.S. Senator) for an article published in Cuba's house-organ Granma on January 24, 1970.(21) Barral was a card-carrying communist internationale residing in Cuba and traveling on a Cuban passport.

Cuans on the Ho Chi Minh Trail

The Cubans were heavily involved in the Vietnam war. Cuba had a very large contingent of combat engineers, the Giron Brigade, that was responsible for maintaining a large section of the "Ho Chi Minh Trail;" the supply line running from North Vietnam through Laos and Cambodia to South Vietnam. The contingent was so large that Cuba had to establish a consulate in the jungle.(22)

A large number of American personnel serving in both Vietnam and Laos were either captured or killed along the Ho Chi Minh Trail, and in all likelihood, many by the Cubans. One National Security Agency SigNet report states that 18 American POWs "are being detained at the Phom Thong Camp..." in Laos, and "...are being closely guarded by Soviet and Cuban personnel with Vietnamese soldiers outside the camp."(23)

Cubans and Other POWs

According to CIA documents Cuban communist party committee members, Cuban "journalists" Raul Valdes Vivo and Marta Rojas Rodriguez, "visited liberated areas of South Vietnam where they interviewed [interrogated] U.S. prisoners of war being held by the Viet Cong."(24) [Many of the American POWs held in the South Viet Nam, were in fact under the command-control of the North Vietnamese's Enemy Proselytizing Bureau, but temporarily farmed-out to Viet Cong.] Rojas told of her "interviewing" American POWS in South Viet Nam at the Bertram Russel mock war crimes tribunal in Denmark in 1967.(20) Photographs of some of the POWs, and related articles, appeared in Cuban and various other communist media. American POWs Charles Crafts, Smith, McClure, Schumann and Cook were among those interviewed and photographed by Rojas and Vivo. This leads one to ask, "Why hasn't DOD pursued questioning Cubans about the fate of American POWs?"

One POW camp holding a large number of Americans was located about 100 km from the Chinese border between Monkai and Laokai, (an area where Cuban engineers were constructing military installations after 1975). According to an intelligence source, "one day the camp just disappeared, guards and all".(25) [also see End Notes]

The disappearance of American POWs near the Cuban facilities at Monkai and Laokai wasn't an isolated incident. American POWs also disappeared in the vicinity of two other Cuban installations. One American POW camp, located at "Work Site 5" (Cong Truong 5) just north of the DMZ, was adjacent to a Cuban field hospital that Fidel Castro visited in 1972. None of the POWs held in that camp were ever released, including black American aviator Lt. Clemmie McKinney. McKinney was shot down in April 1972, approximately the same time as Castro's visit. McKinney's remains were returned on August 14, 1985. The Vietnamese claim that McKinney died in November 1972; however, "A CILHI (U.S. Army Central Identification Laboratory, Hawaii) forensic anthropologist states his opinion as to time of death as not earlier than 1975 and probably several years later."(26) Had McKinney been a guest of the real "Fidel" to be exploited by Castro's G-2 at Las Maristas and later returned to Vietnam?

Another Cuban installation was near Ba Vi, where numerous sightings of "white buffalos" [i.e., American POWs] were made by South Vietnamese undergoing "reeducation" in the North. According to one of the recently returned Vietnamese 34-A commandos, he saw 60 American POWs at the Thanh Tri Prison complex in 1969.(27) Also in the same prison complex were approximately 100 French and Moroccan POWs captured in the early 1950s. Later the French and Moroccans were transferred to the Ba Vi Prison complex near the Cuban facility. There were a small number of American POWs held for a while in a section of the Thanh Tri Prison complex, appropriately dubbed "Skidrow". However, they numbered about 20, not 60, and none had been held with French and/or Moroccan POWs.

The commando's report corroborates numerous other similar sightings; however, DPMO has made a conscious effort to discredit all of these reports--although from unrelated sources and too numerous to ignore.

202 posted on 09/08/2004 8:10:09 AM PDT by Calpernia ("People never like what they don't understand")
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To: Calpernia

Other Cuban Involvement

Several reports indicate that Cubans were piloting MIGs in aerial combat with American pilots over North Vietnam. One American advisor flying in an H-34 used a M-79 grenade launcher to shoot down a Cuban flying a biplane in Northern Laos.(28) This was the same kind of plane used in the attack against Lima Site 85--the top-secret base in Laos providing guidance for American planes in the bombing of North Vietnam.

The involvement with American POWs was just a part of Cuba's long history of commitment to assist the Vietnamese communists, and just another chapter in their role as "communist internationales" on behalf of the Soviet Union. The Cubans first showed up in Vietnam not too many years after they consolidated power on their own island in the early 1960s. Soon after, the Cubans soon began operating en masse alongside their Vietnamese brethren. They even accompanied the North Vietnamese through the gates of the South Vietnamese Presidential Palace in Saigon on April 29, 1975.(21) However, the Cuban's assistance to the North Vietnamese continued well beyond 1975.

Raul Valdes Vivo: The creditation of Raul Valdes Vivo as a journalist, however, was only a cover, for he was in fact a DGI (Cuban Intelligence) officer and a high-ranking Cuban communist party member. [Latinos often hyphenate their last name in recognization of the matrilineal side of the family. Therefore, the last name of Raul Valdes Vivo (Valdes-Vivo), may in fact be Valdes. However, he will be referred to as Vivo in this paper.] In his book, El Gran Secreto: Cubanos en el Camino Ho Chi Minh, Vivo wrote that he first met Marta Rojas in 1965 at a Cuban Communist party meeting. Vivo was the Cuban communist party representative to the IndoChinese communist party from 1965 thru 1974.(21)

Vivo claims to have established a Cuban embassy in the jungle in Vietnam in South Viet Nam in 1969. The truth is Vivo was attached to the Central Office for South Vietnam (COSVN), the central command for North Vietnam's operations in South Vietnam, which was located well inside Cambodia. Much to the chagrin of the Vietnamese, Vivo was assigned to COSVN upon the insistency of Raul Castro, Fidel's brother, who was head of the Cuban armed forces. The Vietnamese reluctantly acquiesced, since Cuba was supplying several thousand soldiers to build, maintain and guard a sizeable portion of the Ho Chi Minh Trail, and providing a large amount of other "technical" and material assistance. COSVN was in fact a front for a front. [For propaganda purposes, the North Vietnamese maintained that COSVN was the headquarters for the National Front for the Liberation of South Vietnam (NLF), a political arm of the Viet Cong. However, in fact, the NLF was a "front" for Hanoi, and COSVN was entirely controlled by the North Vietnamese. It was the North Vietnamese headquarters for staging and directing operations into South Vietnam.]

During a reception in Cuba for a high-ranking Vietnamese communist party official, in a loud voice, Castro chided Vivo for not inviting him to "his embassy." In fact, Castro wasn't at all chiding Vivo, for the barb was aimed at the North Vietnamese for not inviting Castro to COSVN headquarters in Cambodia. Vivo responded by telling Castro the difficulty in accessing "his embassy" after Cambodian General Lon Nol's coup d'etat 1970, indicating that Castro's safety in Cambodia could not be assured. Vivo was evidently in charge of Cuban intelligence in Vietnam, Cambodia and Laos. Initially, the soviet-block subversion of Cambodia was coordinated by the Cubans out of the Cuban embassy in Phnom Penh. After General Lon Nol took over in 1970, the intelligence staff of the Cuban Embassy in Phnom Penh was moved into Hanoi along with a core of Vietnamese trained high-ranking Khmer Rouge officials to form a "Cambodian government in exile." In another section of his book, Vivo refers to himself as the Cuban Ambassador "in" Hanoi in 1971.

Later in his book, Vivo says that Cubans were with the North Vietnamese communists in 1975 when they took over Saigon, "although a modest presence." These statements are very important, for historians have yet to admit the extent of the involvement of Cuba and the other Soviet-Bloc in the directing the Vietnam War as part of the "communist internationale."

Vietnamese in Cuba

While a POW in Hanoi, I was interrogated by "The Lump" and another individual who had a Spanish accent. After learning about the "Cuban Program" upon release, I assumed the person with the Spanish accent might have been "Fidel." After my release in 1973, I identified "The Lump" in a photograph taken in Cuba shown to me by a member of a Congressional committee. In the picture, "The Lump" was with a U.S. anti-war contingent. I was told that he had been identified by intelligence agents as being responsible for funneling KGB money to the American anti-war groups, such as those that Jane Fonda led.(9)

The foreign affairs element of the Vietnamese National Liberation Front, code named "CP-72," was positioned only 90 miles off the coast of Florida during the war and their personnel worked closely with the Cuban Government in manipulating the anti-war movement in the United States. Many of the propaganda themes directed at influencing groups in the United States were developed from information gathered by "CP-72" and was fed to the Cuban interrogation experts who were involved in exploiting American POWS in Vietnam for propaganda.(29).

Also, CIA and DIA reports reveal the operation of an international communist youth training center southeast of Santiago de Cuba in the mid-and-late 1960s. The young people, many of whom were blacks and Vietnamese, were being trained for subversive operations against the United States. One intelligence source reported that many of these young people were children of French soldiers who had either defected to the Vietnamese communists during the French Indochina or were children of French forces who were POWs and still held by the Hanoi communists. Reportedly, they had been given Vietnamese wives, and the children were taken away from their parents at a very young age and sent to communist youth camps similar to those in the Soviet Union and "Hitler's Children" in Nazi Germany.(30)

According to a DIA source, their control officer was Jesus Jiminez Escobar. "The students (agents) were to be infiltrated into the United States through normal airlift channels and would be claimed by relatives on their arrival." "Their subversive activities against the United States would include sabotage in connection with race riots..."16 Another DIA source said that "the 5th contingent was infiltrated into the U.S. from Canada through Calais, Maine."17

The same source said that DIA also monitored a center in Cuba during the same period where Vietnamese were being trained by the Cubans in POW interrogation methods. "Fidel", "Chico", and the other Cubans associated with the "Cuban Program" in Hanoi in all likelihood may have been staff associated with this center. Maj. Fernando Vecino Alegret, "Chico", has an extensive background in youth movements. This presumption is strengthened by the debriefing reports of American POWs who were in the "Cuban Program." They reported that "a large number of VN officer trainees" came to the camp, and the Cubans "Conducted interrogation training, using [American] POWs."[DPMO] The trainees were estimated to be approximately 20 years of age. One would logically assume that this was in-service training of Vietnamese graduates from the training camp in Cuba.

Vietnamese and Soviet Bloc Research on American POWs

The Cubans used standard scientific methologies in selecting American POWs for the "Cuban Program;" i.e., random selection with a control group. Everett Alvarez was initially interviewed for the "Program" but was disqualified purportedly because he was of Spanish decent and presumed to speak Spanish.(5)

A 1975 secret CIA counterintelligence study states that the Medical Office of Hanoi's Ministry of Public Security (MPSMO) was responsible for "preparing studies and performing research on the most effective Soviet, French, communist Chinese and other...techniques..." of extracting information from POWs. The MPSMO "...supervised the use of torture and the use of drugs to induce [American] prisoners to cooperate." MPSMO's functions also "...included working with Soviet and Communist Chinese intelligence advisors who were qualified in the use of medical techniques for intelligence purposes. .... The Soviets and Chinese...were... interested in research studies on the reactions of American prisoners to various psychological and medical techniques..."(32)

The "Cuban Program" in Vietnam parallels that of a similar Soviet program in Korea according to congressional testimony on September 17, 1996 by General Jan Sejana, the highest ranking defector from the Soviet Block during the "Cold War."(33) After defecting, Sejana worked for years as a top-secret analyst for the U.S. Defense Intelligence Agency. According to Gen. Sejana,"Americans were used to test physiological and psychological endurance and various mind control drugs. Moscow ordered Czechoslovakia to build a hospital in North Korea for the experiments [on American POWs] there." As in North Korean, Soviet, East German, Czechoslovakian and Cuban "medical specialists" were assigned to the top-secret "Hospital 198" in Hanoi where American POWs were believed to have been taken for "treatment".(34) This would have been the hospital where at least one of the American POWs in the "Cuban Program" was taken for shock treatment.[35]

In the 1950s and early 1960s, Gen. Sejana had been in charge of communist Czechoslovakia's Defense Council Secretariat, and from 1964 on, First Secretary at the Ministry of Defense. In his various official capacities, he was constantly meeting with Soviet officials, receiving instructions, and relaying those instructions to various Czech agencies and departments. "At the beginning of the Korean War, we received directions from Moscow to build a military hospital in North Korea. ..... The Top Secret purpose of the hospital was to experiment on American and South Korean POWs. .... It was very important to the Soviet plans because they believed it was essential to understand the manner in which different drugs...affected different races and people who had been brought up differently; for example on better diets. .... Because America was the main enemy, American POWs were the most highly valued experimental subjects. .... I want to point out that the same things happened in Vietnam and Laos during the Vietnam War. The only difference is the operation in Vietnam was better planned and more American POWs were used, both in Vietnam and Laos and in the Soviet Union."

Several sets of remains of American servicemen repatriated from Vietnam evidenced that they were of POWs who had suffered severe and depraved conditions long after the purported release of all POWs in 1973. The skull of one had been sawn open, evidence of an autopsy as part of an experiment common to Soviet-style research on the affect of certain drugs on the brain.(36)

203 posted on 09/08/2004 8:13:12 AM PDT by Calpernia ("People never like what they don't understand")
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To: Calpernia

Cuba's End Game in Vietnam

According to a DIA "asset", after the signing of the cease-fire on January 21, 1973, 4,000 Cuban army engineers arrived in Hanoi. They helped rebuild the Phuc Yen/Da Phuc Airfield North of Hanoi where, according to intelligence reports, American POWs were used as technicians after the war. Later, the Cubans disappeared into the mountains of the north and constructed and eqvuipped secret bases about 100 km from the Chinese border between Monkai and Laokai. Here, the Soviets equipped the bases with mobile launch ramps, medium-range strategic missiles, possibly with tactical nuclear warheads, capable of hitting population centers in the southern part of China.(17) This is the same area where the above mentioned POW camp containing American prisoners "disappeared, guards and all."(25)

Units of this same Cuban engineering contingent were building the airfield in Grenada when Americans overran the island. U.S. military intelligence captured reams of documents and photographs relating to this unit's operations in Vietnam. However, no evidence has surfaced that these documents were ever analyzed for information on POWs by DPMO or any intelligence agency.

In the spirit of communist solidarity, Hanoi reciprocated for Cuba's assistance during the Vietnam war by sending U.S. arms and ammunition, captured in Vietnam, Cambodia and Laos, to South America to fuel the "revolution" directed by the Cubans there. As agents of the Soviets, and continuing their belief in the communist internationale, the Cuban government expanded its role in the communist internationale.

The Cubans sent troops to Angola. In 1975, Vivo again surfaces in Angola posing as a journalist. Vivo "interviewed" western mercenaries who were put on trail in a "kangaroo court" in yet another slanted propaganda coup against the U.S. One of the mercenaries was an American who's body has yet to be recovered.(13)

Evidently, Cuba's partnership with Vietnam in subversive activities against the U.S. has continued. In 1996, Jane's Defense Weekly reported that "Vietnam has been training Cuban Special Forces troops to undertake limited attacks in the USA... .... Havana's strategy in pursuing such training is to attack the staging and supply areas for U.S. forces preparing to invade Cuba. .... The training program is focused on seaborne and underwater operations, roughly comparable to those assigned to U.S. Navy Seals. .... The political objective would be to bring the reality of warfare to the American public and so exert domestic pressure on Washington."(37)

Vietnam and Cuba are closely linked by their belief in exporting international communism. Hanoi praised Cuba for its shootdown of two American planes and denounced the Helms-Burton Bill as "Insolent!" Hanoi recently reaffirmed the unswerving solidarity of the communist party, the government and people of Vietnam with the Cuban revolution.(38)


The behavior of "Fidel", "Chico" and "Pancho" in the torture and murder of Americans is beyond the pale and is clearly in violation of the Geneva Conventions on the treatment of Prisoners of War, which North Vietnam signed. Allowing these Cubans to go unpunished sets an ugly precedent, and adds to America's growing "paper tiger" image. Although the Cubans' crimes are smaller in number, they are no less than some of the war criminals that are being tried in Bosnia.

If the communist regime in Hanoi was fully cooperating in resolving the POW/MIA issue as President Clinton, Senator John McCain, and Ambassador Pete Peterson profess, the Vietnamese communists would have turned over to the U.S. the names of the Cubans who tortured and killed American POWs in the "Cuban Program." Full cooperation by the communist government in Hanoi includes the full disclosure of the true identities and roles of these Cuban "diplomats", who were "advisors" to the Hanoi prison system, and were directly responsible for the murder, torture, and severe disablement of American POWs.

Although the "Cuban Program" was reviewed by the Department of Defense's Prisoner of War and Missing in Action Office (DPMO), its analysis was incomplete. DPMO's chief analyst Robert Destatte's claims that the "Vietnamese's story is plausible and fully consistent with what DPMO knows about the conduct of the Cubans in question" are ludicrous and grossly incompetent. DPMO's analysis of the "Cuban Program" is glaringly incomplete, indicating either incompetence, negligence, or an attempt at political correctness in keeping with our present policy toward Cuba.

DPMO did not thoroughly, nor competently, analyze the documentation they presented to Congress, and other related material including:

POW debriefing reports containing the statements by the camp commander that the 'Cuban Program' "was a Hanoi University Psychological Study."

POW debriefing reportings that clearly state that the Vietnamese camp commander ("The Lump"), cadre and guardswere well aware of, and often participated in, the torture.

the CIA report, North Viet-Nam: The Responsibilities of the Democratic Republic of Vietnam Intelligence and Security Services in the Exploitation of American Prisoners of War.

DIA reports on the training of Vietnamese prison interrogators by the Cubans.

no mention of the interviews and photographs made by Cuban journalists cited in documentation, and no there is no indication that it attempted to pursue the Cuban connection.

obtaining information from FBI files relating to the "Cuban Program," reports by Cuban refugees of American POWs from Vietnam being held in Cuba, or electronic and other surveillance of Eduardo Morjon Esteves during his "service" at the United Nations.

no attempt to obtain the intelligence information relating to their operations in Vietnam garnered from the seizure documents by Army intelligence from the Cuban engineers building the airfield in Granada during the U.S. incursion of that island.

End Note:

DPMO maintains, as did the defunct Senate Select Committee on POW/MIA Affairs, that there is no conclusive evidence that American POWs were left behind in Vietnam after "Operation Homecoming" in March 1973. However, eyewitness reports, such as Col. Odell's, and numerous intelligence documents, belie these claims. Pentagon officials weren't the only ones who wanted to keep this secret, and it wasn't only because of third-country diplomatic ramifications. The Nixon Administration, and chief negotiator Henry Kissinger, in particular, wanted to hide the fact that POWs had been left behind in their haste to close the chapter on the Vietnam War.

There are numerous intelligence reports of a group of American POWs seen north of Hanoi, who were suffering from severe war wounds or mental disorders. They were still being held because the communists feared their release would have an unfavorable impact on public opinion. It is very likely that these POWs are the ones who simply disappeared at Monkai and Laokai, for conspicuously absent from the Operation Homecoming release in 1973 were POWs suffering from severe war wounds (amputees) and mental illnesses.

An abnormal, disproportionate number of Americans captured in Laos were never released. Although the CIA has acknowledged that approximately 600 men are missing in action in Laos, given the nature of the "Secret War," it is reasonable to presume that the number could be much higher. The fact that out of the 600 acknowledged missing in Laos, only 10 persons survived is unbelievable. Only 10 were released. When the North Vietnamese communists negotiated the treaty to end the IndoChina War with the French in 1954, they never acknowledged the capture of POWs in Laos. A 1969 RAND report warned that when the U.S. negotiated with the dogmatic Vietnamese communists, they would most likely again deny that they captured any American POWs in Laos. U.S. intelligence showed that over 82% of American losses in Laos were in areas under total control of the North Vietnamese.

American POWs captured in Laos were likely candidates for "transfer" to other Soviet Bloc countries, such as Cuba, since the Vietnamese considered them as "free commodities."

Much of DOD's analysis of POW camps and evaluations of live sighting reports are based on the time-frame that the camps were occupied by POWs who returned in 1973. Therefore, if a live sighting pertains to a period of time that does not correspond to the time it was occupied by returned POWs, it is most often disregarded or debunked. Also, the analysts often failed to take into consideration the fact that many of these camps were vast complexes with annexes often hundreds of kilometers apart that have the same name as the main camp. An excellent example is the Son Tay POW camps, one north of Hanoi and the other south of Hanoi. Thus, if a live sighting report correlates to the name of a camp but the coordinates are different from the main camp, the live sighting may be discounted. This is what happened in the case of most of the Thanh Tri complex and Ba Vi Prison live sighting reports.

DPMO analysts, and DOD's Joint Task Force-Full Accounting (which conducts on-the-ground investigation of live sighting reports in Vietnam), discredits most live sighting reports by providing the names of the sources to the Vietnamese communist secret services weeks before interviews--a violation of good intelligence procedures, who subsequently disappear or are coerced; or by simply discrediting the sources because they had been political prisoners. However, DPMO's Bob Destatte uses these same sources (political prisoners) to vilify "Bobby" Garwood, a detainee who was courtmartialed for collaboration with the Vietnamese communists and reported live sightings of Americans in Vietnam. If many of the reports are "triangulated," several live-sightings from unrelated sources are very similar--too much so to be mere coincidence (e.g., "white buffalos").

For some unfathomable reason, DOD sent pilots, who had worked in top-secret projects such as the atomic energy program, on tactical bombing missions over North Vietnam only to be shot down and captured. The loss of a great many planes over North Vietnam could have been easily avoided. According to National Security Council advisor William Stearman (1971-76 & 1981-93), "One of the untold scandals of the Vietnam War was the refusal of battleship foes [i.e., within the Pentagon] to follow an expert panel's advice and deploy them to Vietnam until it was too late. Of all the targets struck by air in North Vietnam, with a loss of 1,067 aircraft and air crews, 80 percent could have been taken out by a battleship's 16-inch guns without endangering American lives or aircraft."(39)

The loss of pilots was further exacerbated by Defense Secretary Robert McNamara's Dr. Strangelove-like obsession of directing targets to be bombed at the same time every day. To some, it seemed as if DOD, led by McNamara, was intentionally aiding the communists by providing them with some of our best and brightest military minds [e.g., one F-111 pilot was shot down over North Vietnam shortly after leaving the Gemini space program.] Concurrently the Soviet equivalent to the Gemini program made quantum leaps over the next two years in the area of the F-111 pilot's specialty. An F-111 capsule was found in a Russian museum by U.S. investigators. There are several other similar examples of vast improvement in communist technologies after the capture of these pilots. According to DIA's "asset", the American POWs were "a gold mine of information to brief ... specialists in the technologies used by the enemy."

Michael D. Benge*
2300 Pimmit Drive, #604-W
Falls Church, VA 22043
Tel: (703) 698-8256 (H)
(202) 712-4043 (W)

October 4, 1999

*The author spent 11 years in Vietnam, over five years as a prisoner of war--1968-73, and is a diligent follower of the affairs of the region. While serving as a civilian Foreign Service Officer, he was captured in South Vietnam by the North Vietnamese, and held in numerous camps in South Vietnam, Cambodia, Laos and North Vietnam. He spent 27 months in solitary confinement and one year in a "black box." For efforts in rescuing several Americans before being captured, he received the Department of State's highest award for heroism and a second one for valor.

204 posted on 09/08/2004 8:16:59 AM PDT by Calpernia ("People never like what they don't understand")
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To: Calpernia

The blood of tens of thousands is on John Kerry's hands...and yet he pretends our hatred of him is political.

205 posted on 09/08/2004 9:29:37 AM PDT by cake_crumb (UN Resolutions=Very Expensive, Very SCRATCHY Toilet Paper)
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To: cake_crumb

The MacNeil/Lehrer Report -- January 21, 1977

Just a day after Jimmy Carter's inaguration, he followed through on a contentious campaign promise, granting a presidential pardon to those who had avoided the draft during the Vietnam war by either not registering or traveling abroad.

The pardon meant the government was giving up forever the right to prosecute what the administration said were hundreds of thousands of draft-dodgers.

Some in veterans' groups, like Tip Marlow of the Veterans of Foreign Wars organization, said Carter did too much by allowing those who evaded the draft to come home without fear of prosecution.

"We were very displeased with the pardon," Marlow said. "We feel that there is a better way for people who have broken laws to come back into the country, and that's though one of the pillars of the formation of our nation -- and that is our present system of justice."

Meanwhile, many in amnesty groups say that Carter's pardon did too little. They pointed out that the president did not include deserters -- those who served in the war and left before their tour was completed -- or soldiers who recieved a less-than-honorable discharge. Civilian protesters, selective service employees and those who initiated any act of violence also were not covered in the pardon.

Louise Ransom, affiliate director of Americans for Amnesty, said she believed the problems with the draft resulted from the way it was conducted.

"There seems to be a myth that because you once went into the army, there's some kind of esprit that you have accepted or believed in," Ransom said. "Well the truth of the matter is that so many of the draft-eligible young men legally avoided the draft that ... all the services took their people predominantly from poor and minority people in this country -- took them right out of high school before they had the opportunity to even examine whether they were conscientious objectors."

Though not all of the groups calling for amnesty received it, Rep. Elizabeth Holtzman (D-NY) said Carter's pardon was a good first step toward healing the war's wounds.

"I'm pleased that the pardon was issued, I'm pleased that it was done on the first day [of Carter's administration] and I'm pleased that President Carter kept a commitment that he made very clear to the American people," Holtzman said. "I would have liked to have seen it broader, I would like to have seen it extend to some of the people who are clearly not covered and whose families will continue to be separated from them ... but I don't think President Carter has closed the door on this category of people."

Military historian Robert Alotta linked the problems with the Vietnam-era draft with those the U.S. saw in its other armed conflicts.

"In the study of the wars the U.S. has been in," he said, "I cannot label one as a popular war -- one that had everyone's support."

Vietnam's gradual evolution, Alotta said, made it seem to some that "we were involved in a war that's not the United States' war."

206 posted on 09/08/2004 10:51:23 AM PDT by Calpernia ("People never like what they don't understand")
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To: nopardons; Calpernia; All
Thank you, if you want the type of stuff that I seem to find, then check out Calpernia's thread on Terror files, we
have collected many things there.

I put several posts there last night, that were borderline for this thread.

#235 "who does Bill Clinton work for?" I found interesting.

some of the posts around that number, show that there were
problems with Russia and Chechnya when Bush took office in

Join us at the Terror files thread, it is a place to discuss
the real finds, that fit in between the other threads.

We have let it lapse a little, but have not and will not abandon the thread.
207 posted on 09/08/2004 11:05:59 AM PDT by nw_arizona_granny (On this day your Prayers are needed!!!!!!!)
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To: nw_arizona_granny

Thank you VERY much...for this info and all of the hard work you are doing digging up this info.

208 posted on 09/08/2004 4:35:18 PM PDT by nopardons
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To: nopardons; Calpernia

The 2nd external link is interesting, I cannot check them all, as I have limited vision, so have to hit and run.

This came from a simple general search of google, about page 33.

Google for:

bill clinton 1969

I did find one hint that Bills free - secret trip for training was to Checslovokia (sp?) in 1968/69.

I have run across this website before, but don't have any idea as to who put it up.......

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Anthony Lake

Anthony Lake is esteemed to be a co-founder of both the Newmarket
Company LLC and Intellibridge, Newmarket's successor. He is
currently Principal at Intellibridge.[1]

Lake is a "Distinguished Professor in the Practice of Diplomacy at the
Edmund A. Walsh School of Foreign Service at Georgetown University.
He served during 1993-1997 as Assistant to the President for National
Security Affairs."[2]

"President William Jefferson Clinton said of Anthony Lake’s service as
National Security Advisor, 'In moments of crisis, in times of triumph,
he has always been at my side.' As the point man of America’s foreign
policy team, Dr. Lake strategized and implemented some of the most
pressing foreign policy issues our country has faced since the end of
the Cold War. Dr. Lake guided the United States through such
geopolitical hot spots as Bosnia, North Korea, Haiti, Iraq, Somalia and
China while extending the reach of democracy throughout the

Lake also served as a Senior Foreign Policy Advisor to the
Clinton/Gore campaign in 1991-1992. He was Five College Professor
of International Relations at Amherst and Mount Holyoke colleges

"After work with the Muskie Campaign, the Carnegie Endowment and
International Voluntary Services, Mr. Lake returned to the State
Department in 1977 to serve as Director of Policy Planning for
President Carter, a position he held until 1981."[4]

"Lake joined the State Department in 1962, where he served until
1970 as a Foreign Service Officer. His State Department career
included assignments as U.S. Vice Consul in Saigon (1963), U.S. Vice
Consul in Hue (1964-65) and Special Assistant to the Assistant to the
President for National Security Affairs (1969-1970)."[5]

In 1961, "Lake received an A.B. degree, magna cum laude from
Harvard College. He read international economics at Trinity College,
Cambridge and went on to receive his Ph.D. from the Woodrow Wilson
School of Public and International Affairs at Princeton University in

Taken from Anthony Lake's biography with the Harry Walker

Profile of Anthony Lake By Paul Malamud, USIA Staff Writer

Washington -- President-elect William Jefferson Clinton's choice for
White House national security adviser -- one of the most important
foreign policy positions in the U.S. government -- brings considerable
experience to the job. Fifty-three-year old Anthony Lake first entered
the U.S. Foreign Service in 1962 and has been active in foreign policy
circles since then.

Like Clinton, Lake is part of the idealistic generation shaped by the
John Fitzgerald Kennedy presidency of the early 1960's, as well as by
the war in Vietnam. Lake's idealism came to the fore when he
resigned his job as an assistant to Henry Kissinger in 1970 in order to
protest the Richard M. Nixon administration's extension of Vietnam
war combat into Cambodia.

However, Lake's extensive State Department experience and his
considerable scholarly involvement in international affairs should also
help him bring a hard-nosed appreciation of the realities of power to
the job.

Born in 1939 in New York City, Lake received his bachelor's degree
from Harvard and studied economics at Cambridge University in
England for two years. He has received a doctoral degree from the
Woodrow Wilson School of Public and International Affairs at

In 1962, Lake joined the Foreign Service, and was posted to Vietnam,
where he became a special assistant to then-ambassador Henry Cabot
Lodge. Singled out early for his talent, Lake rose quickly to become an
aide to Secretary of State Kissinger in 1969, accompanying the
secretary on his first secret meeting with North Vietnamese
negotiators in Paris. In 1970, he had a falling out with Kissinger over
the Nixon administration's extension of the war to Cambodia and later
wrote a book critical of Kissinger's approach to Africa.

In 1977, Lake became head of the State Department's policy planning
operation in the administration of Jimmy Carter. In that position, he
reported directly to Secretary of State Cyrus Vance and was witness to
the bureaucratic maneuvering that went on between Vance and
Carter's national security adviser, Zbigniew Brzezinski.

In 1981, when Ronald Reagan became president, Lake withdrew into
academia, becoming a professor at Amherst College in Massachusetts.
In 1984, he moved to Mount Holyoke College, where he has taught
courses in the Vietnam War, Third World revolutions, and American
foreign policy. During the 1992 presidential campaign, he was one of
candidate Clinton's chief foreign policy advisers. (Clinton and Lake
had worked together in the 1972 presidential campaign of George
McGovern.) Lake is also an old friend of Warren Christopher,
Clinton's choice for secretary of state.

Lake's published works include "The 'Tar Baby' Option: American
Policy Toward Southern Rhodesia," (1976); "Third World Radical
Regimes: U.S. Policy Under Carter and Reagan," (1985); and
"Somoza Falling: A Case Study of Washington at Work," (1990). In
addition, he helped found the influential journal "Foreign Policy."

Lake has been referred to in the press as a "creative and imaginative
thinker." He is known as a skillful bureaucratic conciliator and is
thought to favor a strong United Nations as a multilateral vehicle for
solving international problems.


Board Member, U.S. Fund for UNICEF
Board Member, Marshall Legacy Institute
Board Member, International Committee of the Red Cross
Board Member, Carnegie Council on Ethics and International
Board Member, America Abroad
Board Member, Freedom House
Trustee, St. Mary’s College of Maryland

External Links

Walter Pincus and Thomas W. Lippman, Intelligence Agency
Should Like the Cut of Lake's Cloak, The Washington Post,
December 6, 1996.
F.R. Duplantier, Anthony Lake Is Wrong Man for Job. Knowing that
both the CIA and the FBI were infiltrated by Russian spies, why on
earth would President Bill Clinton name someone like Anthony
Lake to be the new director of Central Intelligence?, America's
Future, February 9, 1997.
CIA Director-Designate Lake Claims: "Russian Missiles No Longer
Target American Cities", American Foreign Policy Council,
Washington, D.C.: Foreign Policy Alert, No. 35, March 4, 1997.
Senate Testimony by CIA Director-Designate Lake. Testimony
before the Senate Select Committee on Intelligence, March 11,
Shields & Gigot on Lake, PBS Online NewsHour, March 18, 1997.
William Norman Grigg, The Ordeal of Anthony Lake. Clinton's CIA
nominee bowed out before his leftist past was exposed, The New
American, April 14, 1997.

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209 posted on 09/08/2004 6:14:21 PM PDT by nw_arizona_granny (On this day your Prayers are needed!!!!!!!)
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To: nw_arizona_granny

You're a marvel! Thanks for all you do! I'm saving it all and my files runneth over. LOL

210 posted on 09/08/2004 6:34:22 PM PDT by nopardons
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To: nopardons; Calpernia

Here he is in /near Prague.

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The Clintons Terrorist Ties

In his FrontPage Magazine article Andrew Alexander’s Lies About the
Cold War, Jamie Glazov speaks of the Soviet regime’s aggressive and
expansionist designs against the West in the post-WWII period, and
how de-classified Soviet sources prove that they had extensively
infiltrated their agents into Western society.

"...the Venona transcripts are thousands of Soviet intelligence
messages that were intercepted and decoded over four decades by
the FBI and the NSA (National Security Agency). Released over the
past few years, these files prove that there was a large-scale
Communist penetration of the U.S. government, and that Communist
spies passed on valuable information to the KGB.

"The deciphered Venona cables confirm that the American Communist
Party successfully established secret caucuses in government agencies
throughout the 1930s and 1940s. The cables prove that 349 Americans
had covert ties to Soviet intelligence -– much as Joseph McCarthy had
charged. They also indicate that Alger Hiss, who was accused in 1949
of spying for the Soviets, did leak material – even though he denied
his guilt. On top of this, the number 349 is clearly a low estimate,
because out of 25,000 intercepted telegrams, only 2,900 were

"McCarthy, therefore, for all of his flaws, had every legitimate reason
to ask the famous question: 'Are you or have you ever been a member
of the Communist Party?' That’s because the American Communist
Party was doing severe damage to U.S. security interests, and it was
financed and run entirely by Moscow."

Why some of us fear Clinton?

"A visiting professor was the speaker. He gave a rousing talk on
overthrowing the 'dictatorship of the bourgeoisie' in America. How
would this be accomplished? By taking over the Democratic Party
through its left wing. The speaker said it was possible to elect a
stealth socialist president, who would effect a peaceful transition to

"We talked about Marxism and the idea of changing the system. Then,
suddenly, my professor said: 'We have such high hopes for this young
Arkansas governor, Bill Clinton.'"

" order to win Americans over to socialist ways of thinking, you
need to create a new, euphemistic language -- a kind of linguistic
deception. Shearer also talked about taking over the Democratic Party
through its left wing and electing a stealth socialist president."

"Marxist ideologues have killed over 100 million innocent people in the
twentieth century. The Nazis killed only a fraction of this."

"Why is it, then, that the Democratic Party is soft on Marxism? Why
does it tolerate so many fellow-travelers and disciples of the hard

"Seven months ago an intelligence professional, whose credentials are
impeccable, told me something quite alarming. He told of a taped
conversion between two Czech Communist officials. They were
discussing a young American college student -- Bill Clinton -- who
was then visiting Prague. They mentioned that he was expected to
attend a meeting at a certain place which was reserved for the
recruitment of Communist bloc agents."

Bill Clinton Picked To Be a Stealth Socialist President

"Bill Clinton was a leader and organizer of ant-Vietnam War rallies,
thus identifying himself as siding with the Viet Cong against America.
As we were told during the 1992 Presidential Campaign, Bill Clinton
spent three weeks in December, 1969, as a visitor to the Kremlin,
courtesy of the infamous and bloody KGB."

Former FBI agent Gary Aldrich, in his book "Unlimited Access"
"...recounted how very Marxist Hillary Rodham was during her college
days. She was known as Yale's foremost Communist while she was
studying law there."

"During the first Clinton Inauguration, Secret Service agents were
shocked to see that several members of the Clinton Transition Team
were sporting red Lenin lapel pins and were carrying copies of
Chairman Mao's Red Book!"

According to Aldrich, the Clintons orchestrated a wholesale breakdown
of America’s national security apparatus - not just the FBI but also the
CIA, National Security Council, Department of Justice, Customs and
every other federal law enforcement agency. The Clintons had sinister
motives, and Hillary was the mastermind of the slow train wreck over
eight years to purposefully weaken America’s national security. Their
blatant disregard of national security procedures, from gay sex in the
White House to acceptance of drug users, made the U. S. government
weak and vulnerable.

"Hillary and Bill, as well as Al Gore, were absolutely paranoid about
their political opponents, something Aldrich had never witnessed in
previous administrations, which were more worried about foreign

"Diversity policies and politically correct silliness became the main
objectives of the White House and FBI."

Emerson: Clintons Courted Pro-Terror Islamic Militants

"The fact is President Clinton and his wife openly welcomed and
embraced militant Islamic groups to the White House routinely for five

During the Clinton years, Arafat enjoyed unparalleled Oval Office
access, visiting the White House more often than any other foreign

Fund raisers kept secret from the press with groups known for their
pronounced pro-terrorist sympathies, including one $50,000 affair at
the Washington, D.C., home of Yasser Arafat crony Hani Masri.

A $1,000 donation from Abdurahman Alamoudi, an official with the
American Muslim Council, who was feted by the Clintons and later
boasted, "We are the ones who went to the White House and
defended what is called Hamas."

There was " particularly suspicious Washington, D.C., fundraiser
that Mrs. Clinton's 2000 Senate campaign had tried to conceal from
the press.

"The May 2000 event, held at the mansion of Yasser Arafat crony Hani
Masri, raised $50,000..."

Bin Laden-gate Witness Dares Dems: Depose Me on Clinton 9-11

According to Mansoor Ijaz, "The man who negotiated a deal for Osama
bin Laden's extradition to the United States six years ago..."

"The former Clinton negotiator described the missed opportunity to
get bin Laden and fingered former National Security Advisor Sandy
Berger and former Attorney General Janet Reno as having key roles in
the deadly foul-up.

Bin Laden-gate Accuser: Ex-Clinton Officials Trying to Silence Me

"...the Clinton administration turned down three separate offers to
extradite Osama bin Laden to the U.S. during the late 1990s."

"...Ijaz also charged that Clinton officials deliberately went out of
their way to stifle FBI anti-terrorism probes.

"The FBI, in 1996 and 1997, had their efforts to look at terrorism data
and deal with the bin Laden issue overruled every single time by the
State Department, by Susan Rice and her cronies, who were hell-bent
on destroying the Sudan..."

According to the New York Post's Deborah Orin, Clinton said terrorist
kingpin bin Laden and his murderous underlings "...are good, they are

In December 2001, federal agents seized the assets of The Holy Land
Foundation, which bills itself as the nation's largest Muslim charity,
after announcing it had been caught funneling funds to the notorious
Palestinaian terrorist group Hamas.

But, according to U.S. News & World Report's "Washington Whispers":

"FBI veterans tell our David E. Kaplan that they were ready to move
on the group back in 1997 but were stopped by top officials at Justice
and the Clinton White House."

Iran-Contra All Over Again

The Times of London published a March 24 story with the headline:
"Drug Money Linked to the Kosovo Rebels."

"The Kosovo Liberation Army, which has won the support of the West
for its guerrilla struggle against the heavy armor of the Serbs, is a
Marxist-led force funded by dubious sources, including drug money,"
The Times reported.

"Then there's a recent report in the John Birch Society's New
American magazine. Writer William Norman Grigg claims that the KLA
is closely allied with Osama bin Laden..."

Propaganda vs. News

"The Kosovo Liberation Army (KLA), led by Maoists and supported by
Albanian heroin traffickers, had become a well-armed terrorist group
comparable to the Vietcong in South Vietnam."

Milosevic and the Impeachment of President Clinton, Part 2

"The KLA had been engaged in prototypical Islamic terrorism and
guerrilla war, aimed at the 'liberation' of Kosovo.

"In the 1980s, the Albanian Islamic-revolutionary militants had
already been looking forward to 'Greater Albania,' including 'western
Macedonia, southern Montenegro, part of southern Serbia, Kosovo
and Albania itself.' (12) But in the 1990s, it was all a 'national
liberation movement' to the U.S. State Department.

"In 2001, the U.S. State Department even referred to the ubiquitous
diabolical bin Laden and al-Qaeda in the KLA as well. But before Sept.
11, 2001, the phrase 'Islamic terrorism' was virtually unknown in the
United States, and President Clinton's State Department perceived
Yugoslavia as an outdated colonial empire, the Serbs as the
Europeans, Christians and hence colonialists, and the Moslems as
oppressed victims of colonialism, fighting for their liberation - hence
the Kosovo Liberation Army.

"The KLA killed not only Serbs but also 'Albanian collaborators,'
including women and children.

"In August 1995, the Clinton administration supported the Croatian
army's expulsion of up to half a million Serbs from Krajina. Ethnic
cleansing? A crime against humanity?

"Oh, no! Quite the contrary! That was a heroic struggle of victims of
colonialism for their liberation from the colonialists."

And what is the historic significance of Kosovo to the Christians and
Muslims who live in the region? Who are the Serbs of Kosovo, and
their relationship to the Muslims? Are they really "colonialists" who
conquered and victimized the poor, downtrodden Muslims of the
region? The truth is something very different.


"The Turkish invasion of Europe seemed unstoppable as they swept
over everything in their path with fire and sword. Until they reached
the Kosovo Plain."

The Ethnic Cleansing Clinton Approved and Ted Turner: Buffoon or

"...Along with Senator Joseph Lieberman, who now supports the
arming of the Kosovo Liberation Army (KLA), Dole [the then Senate
majority leader who became the Republican candidate for president a
year later] was a big supporter of breaking the United Nations arms
embargo of the former Yugoslavia by arming the Bosnian Muslims
against the Serbs. Although the Clinton administration claimed to be
opposed to this scheme, it was later proven and acknowledged that
the Clinton administration approved Iranian arms shipments through
Croatia to the Bosnian Muslims.

"Actually, NATO's aggression, provoked by the KLA, may yet lead to
an Islamic-fundamentalist Greater Albania, incorporating all territories
where Albanians live and pushing global Islamic terrorism into the
heart of Europe.

"On Sept. 11, 2001, Milosevic was kept in prison without bail as the
Hitler of today, guilty only of having tried to stamp out the KLA as part
of global Islamic terrorism. And here the United States was attacked
by Islamic terrorism for the struggle against which Milosevic had been
indicted as the Hitler of today, abducted for $1 billion, and kept in
prison without bail.

"But the good news? President Clinton got rid of the impeachment, all
the skeletons were put safely back into his closet, and it all seems to
have happened a century or a millennium ago."

Clinton's Balkan Refugee Secret

"What the Vice President and the reporters who covered his refugee
announcement failed to mention is this: the 20,000 Albanian Kosovars
would be just the latest Balkan influx to hit American shores since the
U.S. became embroiled in that European conflict. In fact, since the
mid-90's, America has resettled over 80,000 displaced persons from
the region, mainly Bosnian Muslims, primarily to the American

"Moreover, America's largest meat processing company, which just
happens to have a curious link to Clinton-friendly Tyson Foods, has
done very well by the deluge of hardworking Balkan refugees willing to
take their dangerous non-union jobs."

The Tale of an American Terrorist Network

"The Saudi relationship is so sensitive that, for more than a decade,
federal prosecutors and counter-terrorist agents have been ordered to
shut down their investigations for reasons of foreign policy."

"Federal agents in Tampa, who had known about the Saudi-Sami
Al-Arian connection since 1990, were ordered to drop the investigation
in 1995. The Saudi influence buying machine had effectively shut down
any threat of criminal prosecution."

"...the American public may finally begin to learn why the Saudi-Sami
Al-Arian terror networks went untouched for so long. It wasn’t an
intelligence failure, it was a foreign policy failure. The orders were not
to embarrass the Saudi government. Year after year, the cover-up
orders came from the State Department and the White House. The
CIA, the FBI and the Justice Department just did what they were told."

Turning the Tables on Oklahoma City

As the nation tried to figure out "whodunit," the political left already
had an answer, and no amount of facts would change it: "The killer
was 'the political right.' "

"...a few dozen hate-driven conservative talk radio show hosts who
inspired the crime."

Said President Clinton of these damnable talk radio hosts: "[They
are] purveyors of hate and division ... [they] leave the impression, by
their very words, that violence is acceptable."

Just as guilty, Clinton said, are those who, Lincoln-like, "believe the
greatest threat to freedom comes from" within, or who, Jefferson-like,
say "nuts" to trusting in men and deem it their patriotic duty to be
government watchdogs.

"How dare you call yourselves patriots!" President Clinton fumed at
Michigan State University.

Other co-conspirators whom the left indicted included anti-globalists,
homeschoolers, fundamentalist Christians, conspiracy theorists, gun
owners, income tax opponents, land rights activists, constitutionalists,
John Birchers - and the Republican Party, for tolerating all of the

President Clinton, fresh from his Josef Stalin victory party, invoked
Stalinist rhetoric in Montana. Real patriots don't allow citizens to
criticize the federal government, he suggested. "When you hear
someone doing it, you ought to stand up and double up your fist and
stick it in the sky and shout them down."

evidence mounts that Iraqi terrorists - not the political right - ordered
the hit on Oklahoma City, and that the Clinton administration likely
covered it up.

Additional evidence obtained under the Freedom of Information Act
reveals Interpol's efforts to apprehend two additional Oklahoma City
bombing suspects and information in the agency's files associating
Ramzi Youssef with the attack.

The written and verbal confession of Abdul Hakim Murad, obtained by
the FBI three months after the Murrah building bombing, that Ramzi
Youssef's "liberation army" was responsible for the bombing.

Pentagon assertions that McVeigh was an Iraqi agent and had
collected Iraqi telephone numbers prior to his arrest.

A March 1998 Timothy McVeigh-copyrighted "Essay on Hypocrisy,"
which defended Iraq's right to "stockpile chemical or biological
weapons" and returned again and again to the topic of Iraq.

Report: 9-11 Plotter Linked to OKC Bombing

"An al-Qaeda conspirator who was involved in a plot investigators now
say was an early blueprint for the 9-11 attacks had also claimed credit
for the Oklahoma City bombing seven years ago, according to an FBI
302 witness statement revealed by Insight Magazine on Monday."

Remember "John Doe #2"? Very quickly after it was speculated that
he was of Middle Eastern descent, the FBI and media lost interest in
him, and it all became the fault of "Right-Wingers" the Militias, Talk
Radio, and Christian Fundamentalists.

To the Clintons, conservatives were the enemy, not Islamic
fundamentalists, despite the 1993 World Trade Center bombing and
all the rest, because they have been "progressive" Leftists since their
college days. They have been working to overthrow our American form
of government, and very nearly succeeded, with the help of their
"Useful Idiots" in the media, academia, and the voting public.

United States Constitution

Article. III.

Section. 3.

Clause 1: Treason against the United States, shall consist only in
levying War against them, or in adhering to their Enemies, giving
them Aid and Comfort.

211 posted on 09/08/2004 6:39:23 PM PDT by nw_arizona_granny (On this day your Prayers are needed!!!!!!!)
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To: nopardons; Calpernia

This is the URL to save, it has several Presidents papers and the one where clinton said we will absorb the first strike was here last year, in Executive Orders for 1997 or 1998, I think in November........

I would think there will be much to read here, the Weekly Compilation in 1993, had Cuba.

Oh, well, at least you and Cal will have enough to play with
for tonight.......LOL - I see you both digging away......

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President of the United States

Frames Index | No-Frames Version

Biographies | Bush Cabinet | Citizen-Services | Continental Congress | Current
Speeches | Directives
Documents | E-Mail | Executive Orders | First Ladies | Historic Speeches
Impeachment | Libraries
Pardons | Politics | Presidential Medal of Freedom
Public Papers | Salary | Succession | Trivia | Vetoes | Weekly Compilation |
White House

Last updated on March 3, 2004

212 posted on 09/08/2004 7:11:15 PM PDT by nw_arizona_granny (On this day your Prayers are needed!!!!!!!)
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To: nw_arizona_granny

The Venona Cables


NSA Web site, "Introductory History of VENONA and Guide to the Translations,

NSA Web site, "Introduction to the VENONA Project,"

213 posted on 09/08/2004 7:25:36 PM PDT by Calpernia ("People never like what they don't understand")
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To: Calpernia; Eastbound; All

Still reading “Mutiny Does Not Happen Lightly".

So I have more to post. I feel like I'm just talking to myself here. Does anyone need this info?


Hey, if ya got 'em, post 'em - thanks. I haven't read it. Actually, I've never heard about it. Guess I should check it out, eh?

214 posted on 09/09/2004 6:21:30 PM PDT by JLO
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New Soldier (text only) can be downloaded here at Document Download: has the pictures and excerpts for review.

215 posted on 09/09/2004 6:31:13 PM PDT by Calpernia ("People never like what they don't understand")
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To: Calpernia

Russian POW camps with information on who was where to date, posted here:

216 posted on 09/09/2004 6:33:19 PM PDT by Calpernia ("People never like what they don't understand")
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To: stockpirate

What was the link to the FBI files you had on this story?


The Los Angeles Times recently reported that selected leaders of Kerry’s Vietnam Veterans Against the War met with representatives of Hanoi who told these leaders which senators they wanted assassinated, and that Kerry participated in a “closed-door discussion” on November of 1971 on whether to do this. Kerry denies this, saying he resigned the organization in July of 1971. But there is a problem. Reporter Thomas H. Lipscomb in an article in The New York Sun wrote:

“A Vietnam veteran who said he remembers John Kerry participating in a November 1971 Kansas City meeting at which an assassination plot was discussed says an official with the Kerry presidential campaign called him this month and pressured him to change his story. The veteran, John Musgrave, says he was called twice by the head of Veterans for Kerry, John Hurley, who told him,”Why don’t you refresh your memory and call that reporter back ?” Musgrave said, “I told Hurley it was my first meeting as an state officer of VVAW and I remember Kerry being there. I remember what I remember.”

By then, the recollections of six witnesses, along with minutes and FBI records, placed Kerry at the Kansas City meeting, but the story has since then been sanitized until it simply disappeared. However, John Musgrave is a friend of Mr. Magruder and lives in the same area in Kansas. He was one of 62 Vietnam vets Mr. Magruder interviewed in Houston for this film. He appears in a photo with Mr. Magruder and General William Westmoreland at the end of the film. At that time Musgrave was running for President of Vietnam Veterans of America. Said Mr. Magruder, “Musgrave once autographed a book of his for me, On Snipers, Laughter, and Death:Vietnam Poems, as follows: “To Len - a true friend of the Vietnam veteran and a friend of mine - your buddy- John.” Said Mr. Magruder, “I have great admiration for John Musgrave. He is a man of great integrity and courage. He was very badly wounded in Vietnam and earned three Purple Hearts. He is very highly regarded in this community . He got out of VVAW when he saw how it was being used by the Left. If he says Kerry was at that meeting in Kansas City, then Kerry was at that meeting, period. I think Kerry has a problem here that has been buried by a media that is campaigning for Kerry.”

217 posted on 09/09/2004 6:35:13 PM PDT by Calpernia ("People never like what they don't understand")
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To: Calpernia; nopardons

Hey, I agree. Maybe nopardons got a little confrontational, and then so did I. OK, maybe it was ME first, LOL. She actually gave a lot of insight into the Martha Stewart story that I found pretty interesting quite awhile ago, and I backed her up along time ago, not from personal knowledge, but from fact-finding. I'm talking years ago; we had a very brief exchange. She doesn't recall that, I guess. I do. No matter. Guess her and I don't relate. Doesn't bother me. And she apparently agrees.

No hard feelings on my end.

218 posted on 09/09/2004 6:38:18 PM PDT by JLO
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To: Calpernia

What part of the statement that you listed are you looking for FBI docs for?

What you wrote in the post where did you get the text from?

219 posted on 09/09/2004 6:40:48 PM PDT by stockpirate (Dick Morris; Before he spoke, supporting Bush was a duty one owed to the fallen. Now, it is an honor)
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To: stockpirate

Text is from here:

And if I remember correctly, you had a list of links to the FBI files from the Senator assassination discussion, right?

Or am I mixing up freepers and posts.

220 posted on 09/09/2004 6:43:47 PM PDT by Calpernia ("People never like what they don't understand")
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