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Kerry - Bad Conduct Discharge, 1970, Maybe, 1971?
Various, cited | 9/8/04 | Tacis

Posted on 09/08/2004 7:44:19 AM PDT by Tacis

It is indeed unfortunate that a man who would be President so distrusts the American public and his own background that he hides material information in his military records in the hope of hornswoggling the electorate, of tricking us into believing he is one thing when, in fact, he may be another.

Kerry is asking American voters to assess his fitness to serve as CinC based on his brief record in-country. But, he refuses to release his total military record, about 12 years, so that we can judge the totality for ourselves. It is not that he is asking us to weigh the pieces of his record differently, he is saying, “You can’t see it, you have no right to see, you have to take my word!” Always remember that Benedict Arnold had a wonderful combat record and reputation as a patriot until he turned traitor and tried to betray the cause by turning West Point over to the British enemy.

In an earlier posting, I suggested that Kerry had a major blemish on his military record and had applied for and been granted a pardon under President Jimmy Carter’s January 21,1977, Proclamation 4483 which granted “... a full, complete and unconditional pardon to: (1) all persons who may have committed any offense between August 4, 1964 and March 28, 1973 in violation of the Military Selective Service Act or any rule or regulation promulgated thereunder; and (2) all persons heretofore convicted, irrespective of the date of conviction, of any offense committed between August 4, 1964 and March 28, 1973 in violation of the Military Selective Service Act, or any rule or regulation promulgated thereunder, restoring to them full political, civil and other rights.”

And that, further, the Office of the Pardon Attorney, United States Department of Justice, as a matter of public record, might be able to prove or disprove this thesis. This hypothesis remains open.

Note again, that Kerry’s refusal to be honest with America, his refusal to trust the judgment of Americans to evaluate his total military record and draw our own conclusions, forces us to guess what is in his past, a stain so terrible that he chooses to lie to America rather than reveal the truth. And, what he hides and why, weighs in determining today if he is fit to be President or fit to be Senator.

Maybe Kerry wasn’t actually court martialed. There is another possibility, a variant. It is that Kerry was issued a bad conduct discharge, was booted out of the USNR and was unable to reverse the BCD until Carter took over in January, 1977. Kerry has remorselessly bombarded us with repetitions of his 4.5 months of Viet Namese heroism as proof that he is fit to be CinC. Even former President Clinton, from what might have been his death bed, is said to have warned Kerry to move on, presumably, before Kerry is forced to tell the truth.

A subset of the bad conduct discharge would be a bad “spin” code on an honorable discharge. It, too, would be a blemish that would have to be kept hidden. A Google search on “bad paper discharge” and “special program number” suggest a couple of possibilities about why Kerry is lying while talking only about his time in-country.

The Attorney General of the State of Illinois posts, “Defending Your Rights, Veterans Rights: The Legal Rights of Illinois Veterans” (http://www.ag.state.il.us/rights/vetsrights/ch01.html) that is especially informative. According to this site, there are basically two types of discharge, first, “other than dishonorable,” I.e., “Honorable Discharge, General Discharge (under honorable conditions), Hardship Discharge and Medical Discharge “ and, second, "Bad Paper" discharges i.e., Dishonorable, Bad Conduct, Undesirable, and "other than honorable".

According to another site (http://www.socialistworker.org/2003 1/437/437_05_LaborAgainstWar.shtml), “In the Vietnam era alone, 375,000 men and women received a variety of discharges, all coded less than honorable. There was no hearing, no trial, no review. They were just given this bad paper and turned loose on the street.”

Even those separated under “other than dishonorable” conditions could carry a bad mark. At some point, perhaps as early as 1953, the Department of Defense began to code the DD 214 of a terminating serviceman with a number that was designed to let the military recruiting officer handling the individual’s request to re-up, to immediately be able to characterize his past tour of duty.

There are some surprisingly rich sites that explain the intricacies of a DD 214 . One such site is: "http://www.dallassecurity.com/Published_Articles/Proof_of_Military_Service/proof_of_military_service.html." It describes the Special Program Number (SPN) or “spin” number used on DD 214s that could brand the vet for life.

One source (http://www.washingtonmonthly.com/mt/mt comments.cgi?entry_id=3280) claims “ but there was no official ‘recall’ or notice to vets, [but it is] estimated about 200,000 vets had honorable discharges with bad spin numbers, and who did not know it.” My analysis did not determine whether this 200,000 was in addition to the 375,000 veterans mentioned above or inclusive.

Perhaps, the most extraordinary finding in this brief research project was in a site that is a dictionary of military slang and terms from the Viet Nam era, http://www.twobittraining.com/CAP/glossary.htm. That site defines “bad conduct discharge” as follows, “ Also known as a BCD, "bad paper" or a Boston College Degree. This is what the Marine Corps did to guys convicted at court martials for mid-level felonies like theft, fraud, drug abuse and assault. It's one step below a dishonorable discharge. Boston College is, of course, where Kerry went to law school, 1973 -76 and from which he got a Boston College diploma.

We know Kerry was issued a DD 214 in March 1970 even though his military obligation wasn’t supposed to end until March, 1972, a total of about 6 years (there is an issue of whether his agreed upon total obligation was 6 or 6.5 years). It may be they “turned him loose.” We also know that Kerry received a discharge in March, 1978 but have not seen any associated DD 214.

Here’s my hypothesis. Kerry did not turn bad without reason. Just as Benedict Arnold turned bad when he did not receive the recognition he felt he deserved, so to, I believe, did Kerry respond to some slight, real or imagined by the Navy. His true record will show, I believe, some action/inaction by the Navy (passed over for promotion/assignment?), then his request to be released to run for Congress, the 3/70 DD 214 and transfer to the inactive reserve, and then, in 1970, 1971 or 1972, a bad conduct discharge (or “Big Chicken Dinner” as one respondent described it). Maybe, it was a bad “spin” number, but then that would not explain the seemingly strange dates and 12 year period of military service.

There would also be a DD 214 associated with a bad conduct discharge, one we have not yet seen. Note that Nixon was in the White House and he and his staff might not have appreciated Kerry’s anti-war efforts. The ultra liberal media would have us believe that Nixon could be vindictive. This scenario might also suggest that, since Kerry had been discharged, he was no longer an officer in the US Naval Reserve when he went to Paris to collaborate with representatives of the Viet Cong. It may still have been treason in the broad sense, but not in the technical sense because he may not have held a military commission.

Whether Kerry’s BCD was covered by Carter’s blanket pardon or not, Kerry’s pull with Kennedy and the democrat administration that took office in January, 1977 ought to have been enough to get him pardoned under some catch-all provision. There should be records. If my thesis is correct, Kerry’s military file should also include a completed Form DD 149, “Application for Correction of Military Record Under the Provisions of Title 10, U. S. Code, Section 1552” and Form DD 293, “Application for the Review of Discharge or Dismissal From the Armed Forces of the United States.” The submission of Form DD 293 requires, as a precondition, that applicants “obtain copies their military personnel records by submitting a Standard Form (SF) 180, Request Pertaining to Military Records...” Note that these specific forms found on today’s internet were not the same versions that would have been used in the period 1970 through 1978.

Thus, if the above be correct, we can hypothesize some of the documents that would have to be in Kerry’s official military record (and in his own personal files) but continue to be hidden from the eyes of objective observers, and their approximate dates. There would be a bad conduct discharge letter (1970-71) and related DD 214 (and, perhaps, some documents related to the termination process, but no Certificate of Honorable Discharge), a DD 293 (1977), a SF-180 (prior to the date of the DD 293), a DD 149 (maybe, 1977) and a transmittal letter responding to the SF-180 and correspondence related to the resolution of the DD 149 and 293 applications. There would have to be a DD 214 associated with the Navy letter of Feb 18 1978 honorably discharging Kerry from the Navy and a copy of the Honorable Discharge Certificate, mentioned in the Navy letter but not included on Kerry’s site. There should also be a request from Kerry for the specific documents (and only those documents) transmitted Navy National Personnel Records Center letter of 24 May 1986. There also has to be a form/request to which the Correction to DD Form 214 dated 3/12/2001 (authorizing, in part, 4 bronze stars on Kerry’s Viet Nam Service Medal) was issued as a response.

It is a crying shame and a disgrace that a man who would be President and has based a portion of his claim of qualification on his military service, refuses to allow American voters to judge that service in toto. His deception and lack of candor forces us to guess what might be in that record, a terrible stain that makes in safer for him to risk the accusations of mendacity rather than the certain damage of honesty. Sure, he could have been a spy in Paris, informing on the Viet Cong or on all his friends in the VVAW and the other anti-war folks he dealt with. But, even proof of that would give us insights into the character of the man who would be President. Kerry has the opportunity to confirm to us his bravery, service to nation and integrity. When he fails to take that opportunity, he proves himself to be a worthless (no offense, Teresa) liar. Question his patriotism? Hell, yes!! Benedict Arnold was a heroic patriot until he turned bad and became a traitor.

I am a big enough man to admit when I’m wrong. If Kerry didn’t receive a bad conduct discharge from the Navy, all he has to do is file an SF-180 and make the package available to trustworthy, honest evaluators for publication to and review by all concerned American voters. Then, a list of simple questions and his direct responses. If Kerry’s record proves he wasn’t cashiered, I’ll admit I was wrong and apologize. But, if he refuses, if his record won’t be available for review by all America, if he is as unfit today as the Navy found him to be 30 some years ago, I urge him to step down immediately and resign from both the national ticket and the Senate seat he sometime fills.


TOPICS: Crime/Corruption; Government; News/Current Events; Politics/Elections
KEYWORDS: 2004; bush; camejo; censored; cheney; dishonorable; dubya; edwards; election; gwb; kerry; militaryrecord; nader; secret
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Perhaps, as shoddy and mendacious as Kerry’s behavior is, the behavior of our ultra-liberal media is worse. Everything above (and a lot more) is available to the media. All the facts, documents and theory in the above is available to every investigative reporter in the nation. The above process should have long ago been followed by the media. It is unfortunate that most of the traditional media are far too interested in electing Kerry to bother with doing any fact finding or reporting of information that might dissuade the electorate, present the truth, or call on Kerry to do what they’d expect of the next applicant for the most menial job on their staff, to be honest and candid.
1 posted on 09/08/2004 7:44:22 AM PDT by Tacis
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To: Tacis

Last night Bill O'reilly said that he had found anti war speeches given on college campuses by John Kerry when he was a student. This tells me that Kerry was pursuing an agenda when he went to Vietnam.


2 posted on 09/08/2004 7:52:12 AM PDT by cripplecreek (The economy won't matter if you're dead.)
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To: Tacis

skerry was against the VN war BEFORE he went. Which btw he did after being REFUSED a deferment.


3 posted on 09/08/2004 7:53:51 AM PDT by marty60
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To: Tacis

Expect no unbiased behavior from the media. Expect no serious investigative journalism, like the old days. Those days are gone and they have chosen the far-left as their political icon, and their elitist arrogance keeps telling the duped portion of the public what is real and right.

It is tragic for this country that some people still believe what they read or hear in the media is credible and complete. Sad.


4 posted on 09/08/2004 7:54:06 AM PDT by EagleUSA
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To: Tacis
This is:

1. Slander

2. Dumb. Listen to the tapes of Noxon going off on Kerry. Is they ANY chance he would not have found out and brought it up if Kerry had such a blemish on his record? NO.

3. Counterproductive. There are plenty of things to knock Kerry for that can be documented. Wasting time and bandwidth on Kerry was court martialed/ Kerry was got a bad conduct discharge fantasies doesn't just use up resources better put to good uses, it gives Kerry's supporters in the MSM the chance to dismiss ALL charges against Kerry as unfounded, because some people are making clearly unfounded charges.

5 posted on 09/08/2004 7:54:24 AM PDT by Pilsner
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To: Tacis

I think Brinkley knows something about kerry's war record or discharge and he's aware that it will be revealed. That is why he's backpeddling.


6 posted on 09/08/2004 7:54:56 AM PDT by dc-zoo
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To: Tacis
If President Bush's military records contain hundreds of pages how can anyone conclude that sKerry's would contain any less?
7 posted on 09/08/2004 7:55:23 AM PDT by philman_36
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To: Tacis

An officer cannot get a BCD. An officer gets a Dismissal from a General Courts-Martial ONLY. You cannot and do not get Bad Conduct Discharges, Dishonorable Discharges or Dismissal from an ADMINISTRATIVE action. Period.


8 posted on 09/08/2004 7:56:47 AM PDT by RetiredArmy (The time is coming for all true Patriots to rise up and take back this Republic!)
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Comment #9 Removed by Moderator

bump


10 posted on 09/08/2004 7:59:30 AM PDT by Rocket1968 (Democrats will crash and burn in 2004.)
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To: bhlewis

While highly conspiratorial (and maybe true) if there is a skeleton in the closet, the Clintoni family will leak it...I wonder what else they are saving for the near future??

(chuckle)


11 posted on 09/08/2004 7:59:51 AM PDT by EagleUSA
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To: Tacis

Where are this a-hole's med and military records. I am getting so pissed off about all this. This guy is getting a free pass.


12 posted on 09/08/2004 8:00:51 AM PDT by faithincowboys
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To: Tacis

What you propose is sheer speculation. While it makes for an interesting thought experiment, it's almost certain that it didn't happen.

In the first place, if I understand correctly, an officer cannot receive a BCD. Only enlisted personnel can receive that class of discharge, and that would have been reflected on his DD214.

I suggest you put your considerable energy and intellect into some area that's likely to bear fruit. This one's a sure loser.


13 posted on 09/08/2004 8:01:26 AM PDT by MineralMan (godless atheist)
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To: cripplecreek
My guts tell me that Kerry could have gotten out of his stint to Vietnam. His camera, his three purple hearts which gave him a pass home, his testimony, his association with Hanoi Jane all speak of a "Mission" of anti-war, anti-military investigation conducted by himself.

I do not deny that he served. It's the why of his service that I'm thinking about and the why of using the Purple Hearts to renig on his commitment.

14 posted on 09/08/2004 8:01:43 AM PDT by Sacajaweau (God Bless Our Troops!!)
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To: RetiredArmy

Ding ding ding, we have a winner.

It seems more likely to me that there are some extremely unfavorable fitness reports squirrelled away in there, and possibly some medical records indicating treatment for something he doesn't want widely known (got clap?).


15 posted on 09/08/2004 8:02:04 AM PDT by Terabitten (Father, grant me the strength to live a life worthy of those who came before me...)
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To: Pilsner
Here are some "Founded" chareges against Kerry.

Is John Kerry a war criminal? Consider the following.

After the Tet offensive North Vietnam was beaten, but with the Socialist press in America and the VVAW the North Vietnamese Communists decided to hold on.

This meant that instead of a US victory in South Vietnam and freedom for the South Vietnamese we had 10,000 - 15,000 more US deaths. America’s POW's were being tortured while listening to tapes of John "Traitor" Kerry calling them baby killers.

The VVAW, an antiwar group, which Kerry was one of the national leaders of, was receiving directions from the North Vietnamese Communist Government. VVAW in contact with in contact with NV Communist Government

The directions were on how the VVAW should protest the Vietnam War.

The interaction became so depraved, that the North Vietnamese Communist contacted the VVAW via a phone call and advised the VVAW that they were getting ready to start an attack on US troops and that the VVAW was to be prepared to increase the protests against the increase in bombing that the NV Communists were sure would happen. This put our men in further danger because of John Kerry and VVAW actions. VVAW gets directions from the VS Communists

John Kerry had no concern for the lives of his fellow soldiers in Vietnam or the POW's, John Kerry only cared about himself and his ambition to become POTUS, whatever the cost.

How many deaths of United States servicemen does John Kerry have on his hands?

How many families has John Kerry's behavior as a VVAW leader and a traitor to his country caused untold pain and suffering to?

How many unnecessary tears have been cried because John Kerry betrayed our trust to help a Communist government?

Does John Kerry still have ties to Communists in America?

John Kerry was an officer in the US Navy during his protests of the Vietnam War, having not received his discharge until 1978.

Why didn't John Kerry speak out just one time against the war crimes of his "Comrades in Arms the North Vietnamese Communists"?

Steven J. Pitkin says about his Winter Soldier testimony. “John Kerry and other leaders of that event pressured me to testify about American war crimes, despite my repeated statements that I could not honestly do so. One event leader strongly implied that I would not be provided transportation back to my home in Baltimore, Maryland, if I failed to comply. Kerry and other leaders of the event instructed me to publicly state that I had witnessed incidents of rape, brutality, atrocities and racism, knowing that such statements would necessarily be untrue.”

Winter Soldier, Pitkin recants and says he never witnessed any atrocities in Vietnam

I've also been wondering why Kerry never reported the atrocities he supposedly witnessed while in Vietnam. Maybe because Kerry may have never witnessed any atrocities while he was in Vietnam. The VVAW leaders were meeting with the North Vietnamese Communist Government, leaders of the Communist Party in Moscow, possibly the KGB, leaders of the Communist Party International in Paris, leaders of the Communist Party and last but not least the group of Communists in South Vietnam that backed the North Vietnamese Communists.

These Communist groups were directing the VVAW leaders as to what they wanted them to do, and that is what the VVAW did.

So in a nutshell, when the world communist leaders told Kerry and his group what to do, that is what they did, no questions asked.

And then if you want more:

Several of my posting concerning John Kerry, VVAW and the FBI files.

Highlights of the FBI files and John Kerry, section 7 (October 1971)

Do the FBI Files concerning the VVAW (Kerry’s antiwar group) indicate a plot to assassinate Pres. Nixon?

Here is what I have found in the FBI files re: VVAW and John Kerry

John Kerry caused a fracture in VVAW for his own selfish goals (FBI Files reveal)

Kerry, Watergate: DNC Links Caused Break-in? (Kerry lied! Still with the VVAW after February 1972)

Lets watch the film of John Kerry and VVAW members throwing combat medals over the fence

Treat as Yellow – John Kerry’s VVAW coordinating with the North Vietnam Communist Government when US forces are under attack

VVAW leader meets with Communists to discuss tactics in the US antiwar movement. Kerry’s group!
16 posted on 09/08/2004 8:02:24 AM PDT by stockpirate (Dick Morris; Before he spoke, supporting Bush was a duty one owed to the fallen. Now, it is an honor)
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To: RetiredArmy
There is some wild speculation going on here that has no basis or foundation. You correctly point out that an Officer can not get a bad conduct discharge. The headline of this thread is misleading and should be pulled.
17 posted on 09/08/2004 8:03:36 AM PDT by RVN Airplane Driver (www.RealHeroesVoices.com....see the real John Kerry)
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To: Tacis

Young Kerry, son of a diplomat and friend of the Kennedys, would only be escorted out of the Navy with (false) decorations. If only Zumwalt were alive. Perhaps, only perhaps, Kerry's service records will have the true facts about how and why Kerry's "tour of duty" was cut short.


18 posted on 09/08/2004 8:04:03 AM PDT by Poincare
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To: Pilsner

So? It is a pressure point. And documents like this can leak: Kerry had his own copy. Who knows who else saw it, or has a copy?


19 posted on 09/08/2004 8:05:19 AM PDT by eno_ (Freedom Lite, it's almost worth defending.)
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To: Pilsner

Anybody doing actual research on this should shut up, because it's
1. Nasty unless proven,
2. Useless unless documented, and
3. Counterproductive unless both proven and documented.
Premature spec makes us like the "Bush lied- and kids died!" crowd.


20 posted on 09/08/2004 8:06:42 AM PDT by steve8714
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To: Tacis

While interesting, your hypothesis is entirely groundless and counterproductive. Kerry's fitness reports are available and are, run-of-the-mill sterling with respect to how the Navy was generally rating all of its officers with the exception of the pure dirtbags at the time! Go after Kerry on his after-the-Navy exploits and record of the past two decades. His Vietnam service is a sure loser for us because, (with excepted due respect to the SBVFT) according to his Navy rating superiors, he did his job and did it well!


21 posted on 09/08/2004 8:07:31 AM PDT by meandog ("Do unto others before they do unto you!")
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To: Tacis
I suggested that Kerry had a major blemish on his military record and had applied for and been granted a pardon under President Jimmy Carter’s January 21,1977, Proclamation

This pardon is for Selective Service Act violations (the draft). Since Kerry enlisted, Carter's pardon doesn't apply to Kerry.

I saw another post on freerepublic which discussed another pardon Carter issued covering discharges.

Maybe Kerry wasn’t actually court martialed. There is another possibility, a variant. It is that Kerry was issued a bad conduct discharge

I think BCDs were issued only after a court-martial, but I might be wrong. I don't remember whether a General Discharge was only issued after a court-martial. If someone was court-martialed, I believe that he could be discharged with a General, Bad Conduct or Dishonorable Discharge.

A subset of the bad conduct discharge would be a bad “spin” code on an honorable discharge.

I think spin codes stopped being put on DD214s in the mid-1970s. If you had a DD214 with a spin code, you could apply for it to be removed and your DD214 reissued without it. IIRC, getting the spin code removed was automatically granted. Spin codes went on all Honorable Discharges, so they weren't a subset of BCDs.

We know Kerry was issued a DD 214 in March 1970 even though his military obligation wasn’t supposed to end until March, 1972, a total of about 6 years

Vets from that era have posted on freerepublic (or swiftvets.com forums, I don't recall) that you got a DD214 when you were separated from active staus to go into inactive status. A DD214 is a separation document, not always a discharge document. Discharge is when you've completed all your obligations, including reserve duty. You might get a DD214 whenever your status changed (active duty --> active reserves --> inactive reserves --> full satisfaction of all obligations).

If Kerry had a less-than-honorable discharge and wanted it upgraded, he would have had to apply to the Board for Correction of Naval Records. I did some work for vets getting discharges upgraded in the mid-1970s, but not Navy vets. The BCNR has a site, but info there might be very different from what was current in the 1970s.
22 posted on 09/08/2004 8:08:18 AM PDT by Mike Fieschko
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To: Tacis

DD 214 is only for active duty separation. There is another form for fulfillment of reserve obligation.


23 posted on 09/08/2004 8:08:25 AM PDT by steve8714
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To: RVN Airplane Driver

Roger that. Poor fitness reports (OER's) are one thing, BCDs, DDs or Dismissals are entirely another. I seriously doubt there is any way he could ever have hid getting courts-martialed. So, whatever he has, has to be administrative. Otherwise, a CM conviction is a matter of public record like any conviction and easily traced.


24 posted on 09/08/2004 8:10:55 AM PDT by RetiredArmy (The time is coming for all true Patriots to rise up and take back this Republic!)
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To: Las Vegas Dave

ping


25 posted on 09/08/2004 8:11:17 AM PDT by boxerblues
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To: marty60

Pinging sKERRY's misdeeds happens so often that my keyboard sounds like the hour-bell at school.


26 posted on 09/08/2004 8:12:05 AM PDT by pointsal
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To: bhlewis; cripplecreek; dc-zoo; EagleUSA; eno_; faithincowboys; Mike Fieschko; MineralMan; ...

FREEP THIS POLL!

"How do Vietnam War combat veterans who returned to America and then spoke out against the war deserve to be regarded in history?"

http://www.thehistorynet.com/


27 posted on 09/08/2004 8:12:52 AM PDT by SunkenCiv (Unlike some people, I have a profile. Okay, maybe it's a little large...)
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To: Pilsner
I agree that the article here verges on idiotic for the reasons you listed: it's slanderous, dumb and counterproductive.

Just an example of stupid and easily refutable statements:

We know Kerry was issued a DD 214 in March 1970 even though his military obligation wasn’t supposed to end until March, 1972, a total of about 6 years (there is an issue of whether his agreed upon total obligation was 6 or 6.5 years). It may be they “turned him loose.” We also know that Kerry received a discharge in March, 1978 but have not seen any associated DD 214.

A DD-214 is issued whenever a service member significantly changes status. Hence, when Kerry finished OCS, he received a DD-214 releasing him from his enlisted service to accept a commission. When he left active duty, he received another DD-214, and when he completed his service obligation altogether, he would have received yet another DD-214.

Somewhere in my own files I have three similar DD-214s: when I was released from the enlisted reserve to accept a reserve commission, when I completed my two years on active duty, and when I completed my entire service obligation. What's so hard for people to understand about multiple DD-214s?

28 posted on 09/08/2004 8:13:48 AM PDT by CatoRenasci (Ceterum Censeo Arabiam Esse Delendam -- Forsan et haec olim meminisse iuvabit)
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To: Tacis; hchutch

Kerry would not be eligible for a pardon under Proclamation 4483--any offenses committed by Kerry were against the Uniform Code of Military Justice, not the Military Selective Service Act (which only concerned itself with conscripted induction into the armed forces; once the recruit swore the oath, he was under the UCMJ).

Also, a BCD or dishnorable discharge is the result of a court-martial sentence, and cannot be imposed by a commander in the absence of a court-martial conviction. It is evidence of a felony conviction. There would be recollection of such an event by Kerry's peers and subordinates.

There's plenty of reason to despise Kerry; this one's not gonna hunt.


29 posted on 09/08/2004 8:15:25 AM PDT by Poohbah (If you're not living on the edge, you're taking up too much room.)
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To: SunkenCiv
"How do Vietnam War combat veterans who returned to America and then spoke out against the war deserve to be regarded in history?"

This poll is misleading.

Kerry didn't just speak out against the war.

He said that thousands of soldiers were war criminals.
30 posted on 09/08/2004 8:16:39 AM PDT by Mike Fieschko
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To: Tacis
A couple of points on your theory. First, if Kerry had been court-martialed, it would have come from charges preferred by his commanding officer. Likewise, a BCD would have had to be processed through his CO. If that happened, I would think his CO would have stepped up to speak of this.

I simply cannot fathom an officer being issued a BCD for anything but the most serious of offenses. I saw nothing in your post that referenced any evidence of even a possibility of a BCD. Also, at least back in those days, hardship and medical were not separate discharges, but were either honorable or general under medical or hardship conditions.

Nevertheless, I believe that there are likely serious issues to address in Kerry's unreleased records, which may possibly be unfavorable performance reviews, letters of reprimand, etc. I would like to see those records, but will refrain from making any unsubstantiated assumptions until then.

31 posted on 09/08/2004 8:18:27 AM PDT by MACVSOG68
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To: CatoRenasci; Tacis
Somewhere in my own files I have three similar DD-214s: when I was released from the enlisted reserve to accept a reserve commission, when I completed my two years on active duty, and when I completed my entire service obligation. What's so hard for people to understand about multiple DD-214s?

Hell, I have two DD-214s and two honorable discharges: one each from my reenlistment and from my final discharge.

32 posted on 09/08/2004 8:19:17 AM PDT by Poohbah (If you're not living on the edge, you're taking up too much room.)
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To: cripplecreek

Kerry gave an anti war speech at his graduation in 1966. During an interview, I believe while protesting in the Mall, he said he had been to Viet Nam in '68 for a stop-over (Da Nang). He told of the horrors of seeing dead Viet Cong all over, along with Vietnamese citizens. He said then, that he realized we were occupiers. Remember, this was 1968. He said in '71, "I wanted to go back and see what was going on but I didn't really want to get involved in the war, " so he volunteered for Swift Boat duty because they were used just for patrol. Two weeks prior, the policy was changed and he became an overnight hero.


33 posted on 09/08/2004 8:20:19 AM PDT by Jaidyn
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To: Tacis

Release your complete military records, Ketchupman! And twerpy te-RAY-za--release your complete IRS records. What have you two got to hide, America's #2 dipsticks. Since you're #2, you gotta try harder. And who is America's #1 dipstick--why the clintoons. YYYaaaaayyyy!!!


34 posted on 09/08/2004 8:22:32 AM PDT by lilylangtree (Veni, Vidi, Vici)
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To: Pilsner
3. Counterproductive. There are plenty of things to knock Kerry for that can be documented. Wasting time and bandwidth on Kerry was court martialed/ Kerry was got a bad conduct discharge fantasies doesn't just use up resources better put to good uses, it gives Kerry's supporters in the MSM the chance to dismiss ALL charges against Kerry as unfounded, because some people are making clearly unfounded charges.

Does your line of thinking also apply to the Bush was AWOL charges? Because it sure doesn't seem to apply for the MSM. Bush has released all his records, and still there is the BIG CONSPIRACY.

Lets compare track records of just one thing. Both major candidates for POTUS both served in the military during the same era, for comparible periods of time. Has either one released their military records? If so WHICH ONE? That is the man who HAS PROVED his forthrightness to the country.

As POTUS one of the most important qualities to have is trust. Some people will be partisan no matter what the proof. These are shameful people not worthy of this country. But who has proved his trust worthiness by releasing his records, while another hides behind his.

You are correct that there are many other issues to go after Kerry. But none of them are as important. KERRY IS THE ONE who has made an issue of his service. Kerry is the one who conspired with the VC. Kerry is the one who testified to the Senate, of the memories of Cambodia SEARED, SEARED into his memory. Either evrything he talks about is real, and happened, for which he is a hero. Or he is a little man trying to prop himself up as larger than life because he has a low self esteem. THAT IS NOT THE TYPE OF MAN WHO SHOULD BE IN CHARGE OF THE MOST POWERFUL MILITARY, ECONOMY, AND INFLUENTIAL COUNTRY OF THE WORLD.

Make no mistake. This is not a small matter. In the big picture, if he IS NOT what he claims to be, then this is the MOST IMPORTANT ISSUE. It affects our national security, and our national sovereignty. Economics and domestic and foreign issues are small potatoes to this one issue. In fact they all hinge on national security and sovereignty.

Rant off

35 posted on 09/08/2004 8:24:16 AM PDT by mountn man
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To: Tacis
We know Kerry was issued a DD 214 in March 1970 even though his military obligation wasn’t supposed to end until March, 1972, a total of about 6 years (there is an issue of whether his agreed upon total obligation was 6 or 6.5 years). It may be they “turned him loose.” We also know that Kerry received a discharge in March, 1978 but have not seen any associated DD 214.

The March 1970, actually 03 Jan 70 effective date, is the release from active duty. You won't see a DD 214 from the transfer from inactive reserve to standby reserve. That's a mere administrative transfer within the reserve component. Officer really aren't "discharged", because they never "enlisted". Also no DD-214 upon release from the Standby reserve. There should be something, which I haven't seen, indicating resignation of his commission. They don't just "discharge" you, you have to resign your commission.

36 posted on 09/08/2004 8:24:58 AM PDT by El Gato (Federal Judges can twist the Constitution into anything.. Or so they think.)
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To: Tacis

You're trying to make too much stew with one oyster.


37 posted on 09/08/2004 8:25:37 AM PDT by Ronin (When the fox gnaws....SMILE!)
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To: Tacis
Kerry's contract expired in 1972, yet his discharge is dated 1978. There is clearly something being hidden here.

What is Kerry Hiding?

38 posted on 09/08/2004 8:27:21 AM PDT by pabianice
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To: Mike Fieschko

One of the poll responses is "they're traitors". FREEP it.


39 posted on 09/08/2004 8:31:51 AM PDT by SunkenCiv (Unlike some people, I have a profile. Okay, maybe it's a little large...)
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To: Tacis
Total nonsense based on nothing and filled with inaccurate information. This helps no one.

We know Kerry was issued a DD 214 in March 1970 even though his military obligation wasn’t supposed to end until March, 1972, a total of about 6 years (there is an issue of whether his agreed upon total obligation was 6 or 6.5 years). It may be they “turned him loose.” We also know that Kerry received a discharge in March, 1978 but have not seen any associated DD 214.

Wrong. You receive a DD 214 when released from active duty.

Here’s my hypothesis. Kerry did not turn bad without reason. Just as Benedict Arnold turned bad when he did not receive the recognition he felt he deserved, so to, I believe, did Kerry respond to some slight, real or imagined by the Navy. His true record will show, I believe, some action/inaction by the Navy (passed over for promotion/assignment?), then his request to be released to run for Congress, the 3/70 DD 214 and transfer to the inactive reserve, and then, in 1970, 1971 or 1972, a bad conduct discharge (or “Big Chicken Dinner” as one respondent described it). Maybe, it was a bad “spin” number, but then that would not explain the seemingly strange dates and 12 year period of military service.

You are making something up out of whole cloth. Kerry was transferred into the Inactive Standby Reserves on July 1, 1972. The Navy convenes boards to decide who should be retained in the Standby Reserves and who to let go with an honorable discharge. I know from personal experience. I resigned my commission and was released from active duty in 1972. I received my honorable discharge in 1978 dated Feb 16, the same date as Kerry's.

I agree Kerry should authorize release his service records, but not for the reasons cited by you.

40 posted on 09/08/2004 8:34:30 AM PDT by kabar
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To: Tacis

Kerry signed this peace treaty while in the Naval Researve. Carter had to pardon him.

http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/1209454/posts?page=59#59

Not only was Kerry IN Paris. Kerry was a signer of the“People’s Peace Treaty.” A “people’s” declaration to end the war, drawnup in communist East Germany. It included nine points, all of which were taken from VietCong peace proposals at the Paris peace talks as conditionsfor ending the war

The People's Peace Treaty

BETWEEN THE PEOPLE OF THE UNITED STATES, SOUTH VIETNAM & NORTH VIETNAM

Be it known that the American and Vietnamese people are not enemies. The war is carried out in the names of the people of the United States and South Vietnam but without our consent. It destroys the land and people of Vietnam. It drains America of its resources, its youth and its honor.

We hereby agree to end the war on the following terms, so that both peoples can live under the joy of independence and can devote themselves to building a society based on human equality and respect for the earth. In rejecting the war we also reject all forms of racism and discrimination against people based on color, class, sex, national origin and ethnic grouping which forms the basis of the war policies, present and past, of the United States.

1. The Americans agree to immediate and total withdrawal from Vietnam, and publicly to set the date by which all U.S. military forces will be removed.

2. The Vietnamese pledge that as soon as the U.S. government publicly sets a date for total withdrawal, they will enter discussions to secure the release of all American prisoners, including pilots captured while bombing North Vietnam.

3. There will be an immediate case-fire between U.S. forces and those led by the Provisional Revolutionary Government of South Vietnam.

4. They will enter discussions on the procedures to guarantee the safety of all withdrawing troops.

5. The Americans pledge to end the imposition of Thieu, Ky and Khiem on the people of South Vietnam in order to insure their right to self-determination, and so that all political prisoners can be released.

6. The Vietnamese pledge to form a provisional coalition government to organize democratic elections. All parties agree to respect the results of elections in which all South Vietnamese can participate freely without the presence of any foreign troops.

7. The South Vietnamese pledge to enter discussion of procedures to guarantee the safety and political freedom of those South Vietnamese who have collaborated with the U.S. or with the U.S.-supported regime.

8. The Americans and Vietnamese agree to respect the independence, peace and neutrality of Laos and Cambodia in accord with the 1954 and 1962 Geneva conventions, and not to interfere in the internal affairs of these two countries.

9. Upon these points of agreement, we pledge to end the war and resolve all other questions in the spirit of self-determination and mutual respect for the independence and political freedom of the people of Vietnam and the United States.

By ratifying this agreement, we pledge to take whatever actions are appropriate to implement the terms of this Joint Treaty of Peace, and to insure its acceptance by the government of the United States.

South Vietnam National Student Union

South Vietnam Liberation Student Union

North Vietnam Student Union

National Student Association

Saigon, Hanoi and Paris, December 1970

Signed: Amongst others, John F. Kerry!

Adopted by New University Conference and Chicago Movement Meeting, January 8-10, 1971


41 posted on 09/08/2004 8:37:55 AM PDT by Calpernia ("People never like what they don't understand")
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To: stockpirate

Bump

On 16 April, the Chairman of the Senate Select Committee, Senator John Kerry, stated that he gave the order to destroy "extraneous copies of the documents" and that no one objected. Moreover, he stated that the issue was "moot" because the original remained in the Office of Senate Security "all along."

http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/news/1209454/posts?page=187#187

http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/news/1209454/posts?page=189#189

http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/news/1209454/posts?page=190#190


42 posted on 09/08/2004 8:39:23 AM PDT by Calpernia ("People never like what they don't understand")
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To: Pilsner
This is:
1. Slander

Actually, in this instance, it would be libel (slander is verbal, libel written), if Kerry were not a public figure. The fact that he is means that he is subject to such charges without legal recourse. That is why Ted Kennedy can get on the floor of the Senate and accuse the President of going to war for oil. If the court-martial charge is true, then both slander and libel are wrong. And any attempted defense would be predicated on Kerry releasing his military records... something he has refused to do.

2. Dumb. Listen to the tapes of Noxon going off on Kerry. Is they ANY chance he would not have found out and brought it up if Kerry had such a blemish on his record? NO.

Yes. Plenty of chances. There are many facts about Kerry's service and actions after the war that were not known at the time. Why didn't Nixon bring up the phony Purple Hearts, or the Winter Soldier liars, or Kerry meeting with the Viet Cong, or... the list goes on and on.

3. Counterproductive. There are plenty of things to knock Kerry for that can be documented. Wasting time and bandwidth on Kerry was court martialed/ Kerry was got a bad conduct discharge fantasies doesn't just use up resources better put to good uses, it gives Kerry's supporters in the MSM the chance to dismiss ALL charges against Kerry as unfounded, because some people are making clearly unfounded charges.

I seem to remember the same arguments about the Swift Vets, and they single-handedly blew Kerry's "Reporting for Duty" BS out of the water. There is a compelling reason to ask Kerry how a 6 year service takes 10 years to complete. What happened to those missing four years. Did he re-enlist after going before the Senate and calling the US Military the Army of Ghengis Khan? Or does he have another reason. Perhaps a court-martial that was then covered by Carter's amnesty, letting Kerry re-apply for a discharge. It is a legitimate question given the issues involved. Can a CIC have a court-martial in his background? It would help explain why Kerry won't make his records public. The electorate deserves an answer, and as long as Kerry refuses to release all of his records, he has only himself to blame.

43 posted on 09/08/2004 8:45:03 AM PDT by bootyist-monk (<--------------------- Republican Attack Machine)
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To: Calpernia

A US Government agency had to provide that document to the Senate committee, so it must still exist.


44 posted on 09/08/2004 8:50:26 AM PDT by stockpirate (Dick Morris; Before he spoke, supporting Bush was a duty one owed to the fallen. Now, it is an honor)
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To: Calpernia

One option that is left out is that Kerry was an FBI, DOD mole in the antiwar movement.


45 posted on 09/08/2004 8:51:34 AM PDT by stockpirate (Dick Morris; Before he spoke, supporting Bush was a duty one owed to the fallen. Now, it is an honor)
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To: Poohbah

Now that you mention it, I recall honorable dischages from reserves to accept commission and from final separation. Probably one from release from active duty, too. I haven't looked in those files in 20 years.


46 posted on 09/08/2004 8:53:52 AM PDT by CatoRenasci (Ceterum Censeo Arabiam Esse Delendam -- Forsan et haec olim meminisse iuvabit)
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To: stockpirate

I lean towards KGB


47 posted on 09/08/2004 8:57:00 AM PDT by Calpernia ("People never like what they don't understand")
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To: Calpernia

I lean towards, both.


48 posted on 09/08/2004 8:59:48 AM PDT by stockpirate (Dick Morris; Before he spoke, supporting Bush was a duty one owed to the fallen. Now, it is an honor)
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To: stockpirate

How would you explain him leaving all of our POWs overseas if he 'were' FBI?


49 posted on 09/08/2004 9:02:56 AM PDT by Calpernia ("People never like what they don't understand")
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To: SunkenCiv

I voted "purposely disceitful"...I do not believe them to be traitors, in that they were no longer in uniform and had a 1st amendment right to their opinion.


50 posted on 09/08/2004 9:07:22 AM PDT by meandog ("Do unto others before they do unto you!")
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