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THE "New" CBS BUSH DOCUMENTS: Let's do some investigating
www.freerepublic.com | September 9, 2004

Posted on 09/08/2004 9:16:02 PM PDT by Howlin

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To: Howlin

Mornin' Howlin--ABC is reporting this story this morning too--saying that the White House released these documents, and that the Bush admin admits they are valid, but have a different interpretation as to what they say.

Now, last night, the story was that AP and other media had gotten these documents with FOIA.

Reading many of these messages on this thread, it also appears that some of the documents might be forged.

So where is the truth on this one?

Signed,

Confused in the Oklahoma Outback


301 posted on 09/09/2004 5:56:10 AM PDT by MizSterious (First, the journalists, THEN the lawyers.)
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To: Drawsing

I suppose there ware slang dictionaries in 1972. Anyone got time to go to a large library and see?


302 posted on 09/09/2004 5:58:39 AM PDT by Law is not justice but process
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To: NYCVirago

CYA: that's a term I've heard just about all my adult life, and let's just say I'm older than dirt. :)


303 posted on 09/09/2004 5:59:57 AM PDT by MizSterious (First, the journalists, THEN the lawyers.)
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To: Howlin

What they don't get is Kerry and Pres Bush's military backgrounds are like apples and oranges. Even the democrats in my family say so. They believe all this is hurting Kerry instead of Bush.


304 posted on 09/09/2004 6:01:13 AM PDT by daybreakcoming ("U.S. forces armed with what? Spitballs?".....Zell Miller)
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To: Miss Marple

Here is a link for the Harris County Search page. Perhaps someone with more knowledge can explain exactly what all of the abbreviations mean.

http://www.cclerk.hctx.net/coolice/default.asp?Category=RealProperty&Service=mastermenu


305 posted on 09/09/2004 6:10:02 AM PDT by Protect the Bill of Rights (What part of SHALL PASS NO LAW do they not understand?)
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To: Drawsing

Yep, feedback was a comman military term back then and now


306 posted on 09/09/2004 6:13:05 AM PDT by Wild_Bill_8881
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To: daybreakcoming

I agree with your Democrat kin. I suspect mean-spirited attacks like this could backfire just like Gray-out Davis's attacks on Arnie. Still, if we could prove these memos are fake, it would be debilitating to the Kerry attack machine (i.e. Comrade Dan Rather and the rest of the mainstream press). We are duty-bound to try.


307 posted on 09/09/2004 6:13:07 AM PDT by Law is not justice but process
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To: Miss Marple; Howlin

Heard on Fox last night that Bush was furious w/the Pentagon for dribbling out these reports, and when he requested copies of the latest ones, HE, the President of these United States, was refused the copies. When reminded of the FACT that HE had requested his own files BEFORE the network did, THEN the WH got the copies.


308 posted on 09/09/2004 6:14:18 AM PDT by Carolinamom
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To: Miss Marple; Howlin

Heard on Fox last night that Bush was furious w/the Pentagon for dribbling out these reports, and when he requested copies of the latest ones, HE, the President of these United States, was refused the copies. When reminded of the FACT that HE had requested his own files BEFORE the network/AP did, THEN the WH got the copies.


309 posted on 09/09/2004 6:15:39 AM PDT by Carolinamom
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To: Howlin

February 18, 1966 While a senior at Yale, Kerry asked his draft board for permission to study a year in Paris, which the draft board declined. A Slate article reported that Kerry wrote in a 1986 book:

Page 50: Why did Kerry, a Vietnam War opponent, decide to enlist? In addition to feeling obliged to serve his country (and wanting to go on the same adventure that his Yale friends were going on), Kerry says that part of the reason he enlisted in Vietnam was fear of the draft: "I called [the draft board] because I was thinking one of the options was, maybe I'll go study abroad, which was a euphemism for screwing around a bit, but it was clear to me that I was going to be at risk. My draft board … said, 'Look, the likelihood is you are probably going to be drafted.' I said, 'If I'm going to be drafted, I'd like to have responsibility
and be an officer.' "

Page 70, 77: When Kerry asked to be a Swift boat captain, he wasn't asking for combat duty. At the time, the boats were not yet being used for the daring river raids that would make Kerry a war hero. In a 1986 book, Kerry wrote that the
Swift boats "were engaged in coastal patrolling and that's what I thought I was going to be doing. Although I wanted to see for myself what was going on, I didn't really want to get involved in the war."

Page 73-76: After getting hit in the arm by a piece of shrapnel during a firefight, Kerry asks Lt. Cmdr. Grant Hibbard to put him in for a Purple Heart. Hibbard objected before relenting, and now says, "I've had thorns from a rose that were worse." The book does note, "Purple Hearts were widely given for many types of injuries, including minor ones."

Page 95: Kerry's second Purple Heart. "Kerry was also hit by shrapnel in his left thigh, an injury that would merit a second Purple Heart. He was treated on an offshore ship and returned to duty hours later."

Page 107: Kerry's third Purple Heart. The injury "left him off-duty for a couple days. (He had immediately returned to duty after the earlier two wounds.)"

Page 108: Kerry asks to be transferred out of Vietnam on the three-Purple- Hearts-and-you're-out policy. His commander, Roy Hoffman, "remains upset that Kerry left more than six months ahead of schedule. 'That just turned me off then and there, and as far as I was concerned, he bugged out,' " Hoffman says.

Page 88-89: An interview with Steven Gardner, the one crewmate who doesn't speak highly of Kerry's behavior in Vietnam (and the one crewmate who wasn't interviewed for Douglas Brinkley's Tour of Duty). "Gardner argued that Kerry retreated from firefights too quickly—a view at odds with descriptions by others of Kerry's aggression in later months."

Page 90: Gardner says Kerry threatened him with a court martial for shooting a boy who was about 12 years old. Kerry disputes this, saying that "it was a terrible thing, but I've never thought we were somehow at fault or guilty."

Page 105: Some Hogan's Heroes-style antics: Kerry and Jim Rassman decide to toss grenades into "a huge rice cache that had been captured from the Vietcong and was thus slated for destruction. … Rassman escaped the ensuing explosion of rice, but Kerry was not as lucky—thousands of grains stuck to him."

Page 99-101: Kerry comes up with the tactic that won him the Silver Star.
"Kerry was frustrated that the swift boats were supposed to just race along the river, draw enemy fire, and speed away with guns blazing. Who knew if they shot the enemy? They usually couldn't even see the guerrillas. Kerry insisted it would make more sense to beach the boat and chase down the enemy. …
Rather than ordering his crew to hit the enemy and run, which was standard navy operating procedure, Kerry decided to chase down the Vietcong who were firing at his crew."

Page 103: "When Kerry returned to his base, his commander, George Elliott, raised a familiar issue with Kerry: the fine line between whether the action merited a medal or a court-martial."

http://slate.msn.com/id/2099184/


310 posted on 09/09/2004 6:17:10 AM PDT by crushelits
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To: Carolinamom

It does bear repeating, but I must have hiccuped. LOL


311 posted on 09/09/2004 6:18:21 AM PDT by Carolinamom
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To: Carolinamom
My guess on this is that there is someone in the Pentagon furiously searching files, making copies, altering lines, etc. etc.

I would like to have Rummy find this person.

312 posted on 09/09/2004 6:18:44 AM PDT by Miss Marple
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To: Carolinamom

Nope, hadn't seen that

is that about his flight records?

I highly doubt the 4 papers CBS has been throwing around would have been anywhere in normal military files


313 posted on 09/09/2004 6:19:59 AM PDT by Wild_Bill_8881
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To: Miss Marple

Like you, I am convinced that there are clinton moles/left-overs in both the Pentagon and the State Department.


314 posted on 09/09/2004 6:21:01 AM PDT by Carolinamom
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To: Howlin

It is important to determine whether these memos were actually released by the White House, or whether there is confusion between these documents that CBS found, and others that were released by the WH, i.e., the flight logs you reference in post no. 278.


315 posted on 09/09/2004 6:21:10 AM PDT by Buckhead
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To: Wild_Bill_8881

I heard this on the Shepard Smith show last night...the substitue guy (can't remember his name) did not go into detail as to what kind of reports.


316 posted on 09/09/2004 6:22:33 AM PDT by Carolinamom
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To: Howlin

317 posted on 09/09/2004 6:23:33 AM PDT by MeekOneGOP (There is only one GOOD 'RAT: one that has been voted OUT of POWER !! Straight ticket GOP!)
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To: Carolinamom

I heard that too. Is the Pentagon now at cross-purposes with the President?


318 posted on 09/09/2004 6:25:06 AM PDT by MizSterious (First, the journalists, THEN the lawyers.)
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To: MizSterious
Don't know, but it certainly sounds like it if true, doesn't it?

I stand in awe at the expertise of freepers on this thread as to fonts et al. The deciding factor for me is the difference in those signatures. I'm no expert for sure, but they appear totally different to me.

319 posted on 09/09/2004 6:28:42 AM PDT by Carolinamom
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To: 68-69TonkinGulfYachtClub; Radix; Kathy in Alaska; MoJo2001; LaDivaLoca; Fawnn; Bethbg79; ...

Don't know if any of you have been reading this, but I looked at the "newly discovered" documents and I think there is a person altering or creating files for CBS. The documents I saw, if they ever existed, would not be required to stay in anyone's 201 file (military records).


320 posted on 09/09/2004 6:29:03 AM PDT by Arrowhead1952 (Charter member of the VRWC - and proud of it.)
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To: Howlin
Would those of you who have posted opinions concerning these documents on other threads, please post them here, too, so we can keep them all together?

Just seeing this thread this morning. I'll cut and paste my side by side of the CBS article representation of memo #2 and the actual memo itself:

CBS:

Killian called Lt. Bush "an exceptionally fine young officer and pilot" who "performed in an outstanding manner." That is part of the public record.

But 60 Minutes has obtained a number of documents we are told were taken from Col. Killian's personal file. Among them, a never-before-seen memorandum from May 1972, where Killian writes that Lt. Bush called him to talk about "how he can get out of coming to drill from now through November."

Lt. Bush tells his commander "he is working on a campaign in Alabama…. and may not have time to take his physical." Killian adds that he thinks Lt. Bush has gone over his head, and is "talking to someone upstairs."

Col. Killian died in 1984. 60 Minutes consulted a handwriting analyst and document expert who believes the material is authentic.

~snip~

Now, the actual memo:

May 19, 1972

Memo to File

Subject: Discussion with Bush; 1st Lt. Bush

1. Phone call from Bush. Discussed options of how Bush can get out of coming to drill from now through November. I told him he could do ET for three months or transfer. Says he wants to transfer to Alabama to any unit he can get in to. Says that he is working on another campaign for his dad.

2. Physical. We talked about him getting his flight physical situation fixed before his date. Says that he will do that in Alabama if he stays in a flight status. He has this campaign to do and other things that will follow and may not have the time. I advised him of our investment in him and his commitment. He's been working with staff to come up with options and identified a unit that may accept him. I told him I had to have written acceptance before he would be transferred, but I think he's talking to someone upstairs.

END OF MEMO

321 posted on 09/09/2004 6:29:54 AM PDT by cyncooper (We're mad as Zell and we're not going to take it anymore!)
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To: RatherBiased.com
"Actually, dot-matrix and daisy wheel printers can have variations in character weights given that each letter is manually smashed onto the page through an ink and hammer method, just as a typewriter does.

Uh, one problem. Those gadgets weren't invented yet.

This is early 70's. Computers didn't even have MONITORS yet. You didn't have KEYBOARDS yet.

322 posted on 09/09/2004 6:31:12 AM PDT by Robert A. Cook, PE (I can only donate monthly, but Kerry's ABBCNNBCBS continue to lie every day!)
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To: Carolinamom
yep, those flying training records are kind of an odd find at this late date, probably kept in a totally separate place in the military bureaucracy

Sure wish the press was this hot on digging into Senator Kerry's records, sure would answer a lot of questions old skerry sure doesn't seam to want to answer

fair and balanced and impartial press my a**
323 posted on 09/09/2004 6:32:09 AM PDT by Wild_Bill_8881 (If ya can't dazzle 'em with brilliance, baffle 'em with BS)
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To: MizSterious; Howlin

The Pete Yost story has this passage, which indicates the White House DID NOT release the memos CBS obtained:

---

The White House said in February that it had released all records of Bush's service, but one of Killian's memos stated it was "for record" and another directing Bush to take the physical exam stated that it was "for 1st Lt. George W. Bush."

"I can't explain why that wouldn't be in his record, but they were found in Jerry Killian's personal records," White House communications director Dan Bartlett told CBS's "60 Minutes II," which first obtained the memos.

---

See http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/1210909/posts

The CBS story doesn't say how they got the documents, except to claim they were from Killian's personal files. That is to say, they didn't get them from the White House. Here's the relevant quote from CBS:

"But 60 Minutes has obtained a number of documents we are told were taken from Col. Killian's personal file. "

http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2004/09/08/60II/main641984.shtml

I think we can put that particular problem to bed.


324 posted on 09/09/2004 6:33:35 AM PDT by Buckhead
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To: Wild_Bill_8881
Seems to me that we need to change the subject--wish one of our 527's would release an ad demanding Kerry release his records--a completely outrageous ad that would infuriate the left to such a degree that they'd froth at the mouth at press conferences discussing it. (The more it's discussed, the more it will be brought to everyone's attention that Kerry has never released HIS records!)
325 posted on 09/09/2004 6:35:11 AM PDT by MizSterious (First, the journalists, THEN the lawyers.)
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To: Buckhead

Thank you, Buckhead. This story is very confusing--perhaps because there are so many 'Rat lies intertwined.


326 posted on 09/09/2004 6:36:34 AM PDT by MizSterious (First, the journalists, THEN the lawyers.)
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To: Wild_Bill_8881

IF (and it's a big'un) we ever see Kerry's complete records, I KNOW freepers will be on them like flies on honey analyzing them more thoroughly than the media know-nothings.


327 posted on 09/09/2004 6:37:02 AM PDT by Carolinamom
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To: Buckhead

I heard on Fox this morning too, that the memos had been released by the WH. Wouldn't this give them some validity?


328 posted on 09/09/2004 6:42:13 AM PDT by marway (Dubya '04)
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To: MizSterious

Actually, whether these documents are forgeries is extremely important. It is another nail in the coffin of the credibility of the MSM. They are all running with this story like it's a brand new toy on Christmas morning even though it's a rather obvious fraud. The self-destruction of their credibility, which has been ongoing for years, and the rise of alternate media, are very significant historical developments, and are major reasons why Bush has not been hurt all that badly by their shrill and desparate campaign against him.

We should all be gathering recipes for crow, and e-mailing them to these nitwits, because they are going to have to eat a whole lot of it.


329 posted on 09/09/2004 6:42:26 AM PDT by Buckhead
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To: Howlin

yawn...


330 posted on 09/09/2004 6:43:30 AM PDT by GOPJ
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To: NYCVirago; Buckhead

Another giveaway on this is the superscript "th" on 111th which appears in paragraph 2 of the "order" memo. Typewriters don't do reduced font superscripts. And if they did, why not do it in the header, too.


331 posted on 09/09/2004 6:47:16 AM PDT by PhatHead
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To: Buckhead

Crow? I wish! Unfortunately, we already know how the media will handle proof that they're either mistaken or downright lying. Remember the "Republicans booed when President Bush offered get well wishes to Bill Clinton" story? Have any of the media publicly apologized? (Much less eaten crow!)


332 posted on 09/09/2004 6:50:15 AM PDT by MizSterious (First, the journalists, THEN the lawyers.)
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To: marway

If they had been released by the White House that would lend them some credibility, but I don't think they have. I think that is merely erroneous reporting. As demonstrated above, the White House has released personal flight logs, but not these bogus Killian memos - CBS got those from an unnamed source who supposedly told CBS they got them from Killian's personal files - 20 years after his death - the Yost AP story notes the fact that the Killian documents were not in the official records even though they purport to be "for the record." They were not in the official record because they are forgeries created after the fact by Kerry partisans. The font, the superscript, the signatures, the lack of any circumstantial indicators of authenticity, the myterious and unverifiable provenance, the contradiction by verified official documents, the timing, all of these things and more point to forgery.


333 posted on 09/09/2004 6:50:25 AM PDT by Buckhead
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To: NYCVirago
.....In 1972 people used typewriters for this sort of thing, and typewriters used monospaced fonts......Not so fast! IBM Selectronic typewriters used proportional fonts. If memory serves, a period used a single unit of space, and a capital M or W used five.
334 posted on 09/09/2004 6:51:57 AM PDT by bobsatwork
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To: Howlin

Hmmm, these documents versus Kerry's publicly admitting to be a war criminal. I thought these liberal guys were so into Amnesty International, etc., that they'd jump at a chance to bust a real U.S. war criminal.


335 posted on 09/09/2004 6:57:14 AM PDT by aruanan
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To: cohokie; All

Haven't had time to read all thru this thread, so sorry if this was already mentioned:

The memos are not written on any kind of pre-printed letterhead. They appear to have been printed on plain paper; thus the need to type in the sender's address info at the very top.

But in the May 4 memo, the "111th" on the letterhead has the "th" in the same font as the rest of text, while the "111th" within item number 2 has the "th" as superscript.

The August 18 memo to file also has a superscript on "187th".

All other numerical contractions, such as the "1st" in reference to Lt. Bush's rank, are typed as regular text (not superscript).

I doubt that even high quality typewriters in the hands of our armed forces in the early '70's printed in superscript. But even if they could, why the inconsistencies within the same document, utilizing superscript on some and not others? Especially in the top letterhead address, where you would make an effort to use all the bells and whistles available?

I would like to see similar TX ANG documents from this time frame from that office to see if they were of similar print style.


336 posted on 09/09/2004 6:57:18 AM PDT by leftcoaster
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To: Original Kamaaina
-
-
-
337 posted on 09/09/2004 6:57:58 AM PDT by Cai Della
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To: okie01

A comment on the IBM Executive typewriter...this was a common choice for most AF squadron orderly rooms and treasured asset by all admin folks at the time. No commander ever typed a single document out (as alot of them do today)...they always had the trusted "radar" type admin guy who did all of the admin work for them. I'm kinda surprised that admin folks haven't stood up who were assigned to the units in question.


338 posted on 09/09/2004 6:58:44 AM PDT by pepsionice
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To: cyncooper; Congressman Billybob; Howlin
"1. Phone call from Bush. Discussed options of how Bush can get out of coming to drill from now through November. I told him he could do ET for three months or transfer. Says he wants to transfer to Alabama to any unit he can get in to. Says that he is working on another campaign for his dad.

Just noticed this:

Have you ever seen a senior-military officer, in writing about about a junior military officer (in what is therorectically a private, CYA perfectly-typed memo deliberately called a "memo"?) ...

Have you ever seen "Bush" used directly without the rank designation on paper like this? (That was considered an insult actually, unless used in the field talking to peer-to-peer!)

Also, would a CYA-writing, perfectly typing, anal-retentitive, keeping records & writing letters to himself type of military officer used the term "his dad" on paper?

339 posted on 09/09/2004 7:02:14 AM PDT by Robert A. Cook, PE (I can only donate monthly, but Kerry's ABBCNNBCBS continue to lie every day!)
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To: Sola Veritas

Not sure about the fonts - I served in the late eighties, and all my stuff was done with typewriter - nothing like these. Hard to believe a lowly Texas ANG unit would get the state of the art word-rpocessing in 1972 that my forward-deployed tank battalion didn't have in 1988...


340 posted on 09/09/2004 7:02:48 AM PDT by PhatHead
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To: leftcoaster

Look at Bush's real records - They're ALL individually typed, NONE in this format, font, or style.


341 posted on 09/09/2004 7:03:54 AM PDT by Robert A. Cook, PE (I can only donate monthly, but Kerry's ABBCNNBCBS continue to lie every day!)
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To: Buckhead

Then Fox should have these excellent points brought to their attention. They'd probably look into it some more, and if found to be true, once again reveal 60 lying minutes as the demonrats they truly are!


342 posted on 09/09/2004 7:04:20 AM PDT by marway (JF'nK, show us your records now!)
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To: leftcoaster

OK, now you've got me all excited!


343 posted on 09/09/2004 7:05:56 AM PDT by marway (JF'nK, show us your records now!)
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To: MizSterious

Also confused in OK.


344 posted on 09/09/2004 7:09:28 AM PDT by dalebert
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To: Carolinamom

Wonder who Kerry's pal is at the pentagon. Or maybe its was from Hillary's secret files. It really doesn't matter. Bush was honorably discharged.


345 posted on 09/09/2004 7:12:42 AM PDT by dalebert
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To: cyncooper

Just where is the story in all this? Sounds like Bush was doing the right thing.


346 posted on 09/09/2004 7:17:16 AM PDT by dalebert
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To: comebacknewt

don't sweat it. I think the Dems have over-reached, again. Karl Rove sent them snarling to fill this week and next with whatever slime they could come up with. I mean it's laughable that Estrich lays out in her memo what the strategy is going to be.
Bottom line and I think you can see it in the state polls starting to come in. Nothing from 35 or 25 or 10 years ago on a personal level is going to trump kids being shot in the back and stabbed at their school.
It's clear in the minds of the voters in every poll that Bush pounds Kerry on national security and terrorism.
Kerry doesn't have a national platform left to move those numbers except for maybe 20 minutes at the debates.
The Dems chose to dance around today's security issues except for memorable lines like "every attack will be met with a swift reponse" and "we will hunt you down and kill you" and instead filled their convention with a week of celebrating a war they hated in '92.


347 posted on 09/09/2004 7:18:04 AM PDT by WoodstockCat
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To: Robert A. Cook, PE

Sorry if this is repeat..

On FNC this morning a Democrat strategist acknowledged that the issue was b in large irrelevant to the next four years, etc. He also very specifically said: "Bush was honorably discharged and Kerry served admirably."

The weak spot for Kerry is the unknown state of his discharge. If the truth could ever be known, I would guess he was dishonorably discharged for negotiating with the enemy and slandering his comrades.

Sign the 180.


348 posted on 09/09/2004 7:21:34 AM PDT by IamConservative (A man who stands for nothing will fall for anything.)
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To: Howlin; Devil_Anse

This needs some detective eyes!


349 posted on 09/09/2004 7:28:22 AM PDT by landerwy
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To: Southack
The question I have is the superscript. Were they actually available in 1972 for the fonts you show? And what is the source for the fonts you show? I don't recall any of the selectrics having the special superscript fonts when I was writing college papers (on the department secretary's machine after hours) and had to use equations (e.g. x2). So I am very suspicious of the use of 111th in one of the memos. Could that be the smoking gun that shows they are false?
350 posted on 09/09/2004 7:30:53 AM PDT by CedarDave (USCG Vietnam vet to DC from NM on 9/12 for the "Kerry Lied...While Good Men Died" rally. Join us!)
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