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Irish, Scots And Welsh Not Celtic - Scientist
IOL ^ | 9-9-2004

Posted on 09/09/2004 3:59:23 PM PDT by blam

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1 posted on 09/09/2004 3:59:24 PM PDT by blam
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To: blam

Doesn't that just tell us that there was a strong Celtic presence in pre-Roman Iberia?

The folk music and dance of Northern Spain is Celtic all the way.


2 posted on 09/09/2004 4:01:46 PM PDT by marron
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To: marron

non-sequitur.

Just follow the hearldry


3 posted on 09/09/2004 4:03:07 PM PDT by GoforBroke
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To: blam
1. Irish legend always claimed they had immigrated from Spain.

2. Until the Germanic invasions starting in the first century BC, Spain was a Celtic country, as was Gaul.

SO9

4 posted on 09/09/2004 4:03:18 PM PDT by Servant of the 9 (We are the Hegemon. We can do anything we damned well please.)
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To: SunkenCiv
GGG Ping

English And Welsh Are Races Apart


5 posted on 09/09/2004 4:03:48 PM PDT by blam
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To: blam
The Three Brothers left Carvajal about 700 BC to invade the island that came to be known as Scota.

It's called Ireland today since the Scotians moved Scota to Scotland about 900 AD.

This is not a new discovery ~ rather, it's an admission that the ancient archives kept in Carvajal were correct.

Now, moving backwards, the leadership elite of the Western Celtic culture arrived in Iberia from the Black Sea several hundred years earlier than this according to the ancient stories.

6 posted on 09/09/2004 4:03:51 PM PDT by muawiyah
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To: muawiyah
Archaeologists Find Celts In Unlikely Spot: Central Turkey
7 posted on 09/09/2004 4:07:27 PM PDT by blam
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To: blam
Well the Scots ARE Irish and the music from Cape Bretton and Gaelic are the same. OHH by the way the Irish Celts gave the bagpipe to the Scots....evidently they did not get the joke
8 posted on 09/09/2004 4:08:00 PM PDT by Mikey_1962
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To: blam
"There is a received wisdom that the origin of the people of these islands lie in invasions or migrations..."

Could it be that what was meant here was a "perceived wisdom" and not a "received wisdom." Just wondering.

9 posted on 09/09/2004 4:12:43 PM PDT by davisfh
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To: Mikey_1962
Celtic Found To Have Ancient Roots
10 posted on 09/09/2004 4:14:15 PM PDT by blam
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To: blam
Ancestry By DNA - FAQs
11 posted on 09/09/2004 4:18:47 PM PDT by blam
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To: muawiyah
Now, moving backwards, the leadership elite of the Western Celtic culture arrived in Iberia from the Black Sea several hundred years earlier than this according to the ancient stories.

Funny how this seems to fit with British Israelism.

Some sources I've read say the Scythians were the red headed freckled descendants of the Hebrew tribe of Dan, which didn't return to Israel after the Babylonian exile and became one of the 'Lost tribes of Israel'.

So, Dan supposedly migrated up around the Black Sea & disappeared to history. About the same time the Scythians appear around the Black Sea.

12 posted on 09/09/2004 4:22:06 PM PDT by Lester Moore (Islam is begging to be destroyed by a Christian Crusade! Forthcoming!)
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To: blam
Given that "Celtic" is defined by the language they speak, this really isn't all that surprising. I'm sure that many speakers of Indo-European languages aren't that genetically related to the original "Indo-Europeans" of the Caspian Sea region. The language and the culture spread far and wide, probably via a conquering ruling class, but they mixed extensively with the locals.
13 posted on 09/09/2004 4:23:26 PM PDT by Question_Assumptions
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To: blam

What does this do to the Mummies of Tarin and the fabric similarities with the Scots, etc??


14 posted on 09/09/2004 4:23:30 PM PDT by JimSEA ( "More Bush, Less Taxes.")
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To: muawiyah

There were a lot of Celts in Switzerland at one time, but they were pushed westward by more-warlike tribes.


15 posted on 09/09/2004 4:24:28 PM PDT by expatpat
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To: Servant of the 9

Very True, takes a scientist to confirm a legend.


16 posted on 09/09/2004 4:26:24 PM PDT by CJ Wolf
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To: expatpat
There were a lot of Celts in Switzerland at one time, but they were pushed westward by more-warlike tribes

Actually, I think you'll find it had something to do with being forced to drink wine instead of whiskey.

17 posted on 09/09/2004 5:10:13 PM PDT by leadhead
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To: Lester Moore
DNA study traces ancient ancestry of Europeans

November 10, 2000
Web posted at: 2:08 PM EST (1908 GMT)

WASHINGTON (AP) -- Four out of five men in Europe share a common male ancestor who lived as a hunter on a wild continent some 40,000 years ago, researchers say.

In a study appearing Friday in the journal Science, researchers say an analysis of a pattern found in the Y chromosome taken from 1,007 men from 25 places in Europe shows that about 80 percent of Europeans arose from the Paleolithic people who first migrated to Europe.

Peter A. Underhill, a senior researcher at the Stanford Genome Technology Center in Palo Alto, California, and co-author of the study, said the research supports conclusions from archaeological, linguistic and other DNA evidence about the settlement of Europe by ancient peoples.

"When we can get different lines of evidence that tell the same story, then we feel we are telling the true history of the species," said Underhill.

Underhill said the researchers used the Y chromosome in the study because its rare changes establish a pattern that can be traced back hundreds of generations, thus helping to plot the movement of ancient humans.

Y chromosome used to trace ancestry

The Y chromosome is inherited only by sons from their fathers. When sperm carrying the Y chromosome fertilizes an egg it directs the resulting baby to be a male. An X chromosome from the father allows a fertilized egg to be female.

The Y chromosome has about 60 million DNA base pairs. Changes in those base pairs happen infrequently, said Underhill, but they occur often enough to establish patterns that can be used to trace the ancestry of people.

He said researchers looking at the 1,007 chromosome samples from Europe identified 22 specific markers that formed a specific pattern. Underhill said the researchers found that about 80 percent of all European males shared a single pattern, suggesting they had a common ancestor thousands of generations ago.

The basic pattern had some changes that apparently developed among people who once shared a common ancestor and then were isolated for many generations, Underhill said.

This scenario, he said, supports other studies about the Paleolithic European groups. Those studies suggest that a primitive, stone-age human came to Europe, probably from Central Asia and the Middle East, in two waves of migration beginning about 40,000 years ago. Their numbers were small and they lived by hunting animals and gathering plant food. They used crudely sharpened stones and fire.

Neolithic people brought the chromosome to Europe About 24,000 years ago, the last ice age began, with mountain-sized glaciers moving across most of Europe. Underhill said the Paleolithic Europeans retreated before the ice, finding refuge for hundreds of generations in three areas: what is now Spain, the Balkans and Ukraine.

When the glaciers melted, about 16,000 years ago, the Paleolithic tribes resettled the rest of Europe. Y chromosome mutations occurred among people in each of the ice age refuges, said Underhill. He said the research shows a pattern that developed in Spain is now most common in northwest Europe, while the Ukraine pattern is mostly in Eastern Europe and the Balkan pattern is most common in Central Europe.

About 8,000 years ago, said Underhill, a more advanced people, the Neolithic, migrated to Europe from the Middle East, bringing with them a new Y chromosome pattern and a new way of life: agriculture. About 20 percent of Europeans now have the Y chromosome pattern from this migration, he said.

18 posted on 09/09/2004 5:29:40 PM PDT by blam
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To: JimSEA
"What does this do to the Mummies of Tarin and the fabric similarities with the Scots, etc??"

I just don't know Jim. I wish the Chinese would let us have some DNA, that would help. Things are so complicated that I doubt we'll ever figure it out completely.

The Caucasians Of China

19 posted on 09/09/2004 5:45:37 PM PDT by blam
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To: Lester Moore

Does not compute. These folk are known on the Danube for thousands of years. If there's any connection between them and the Hebrews, it would be the other way around.


20 posted on 09/09/2004 5:54:05 PM PDT by muawiyah
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To: blam
This "Boffin" needs a Claymore Enema!
21 posted on 09/09/2004 6:10:05 PM PDT by Redleg Duke (Stir the pot...don't let anything settle to the bottom where the lawyers can feed off of it!)
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To: blam
The study showed people in Celtic areas: Wales, Scotland, Ireland, Brittany
and Cornwall, had strong genetic ties, but that this heritage had more in common
with people from the Iberian peninsula.


Finally I understand my Welsh heritage and lust for Tex-Mex food!
22 posted on 09/09/2004 6:11:53 PM PDT by VOA
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To: JimSEA

Nothing. People moved around--a lot.


23 posted on 09/09/2004 6:12:44 PM PDT by maro (T)
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To: blam

BTTT


24 posted on 09/09/2004 6:13:01 PM PDT by Fiddlstix (This Tagline for sale. (Presented by TagLines R US))
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To: blam

That's okay.

I'd sooner have something in common with the Spanish, than the French and Germans! ;-)


25 posted on 09/09/2004 6:16:22 PM PDT by Happygal (liberalism - a narrow tribal outlook largely founded on class prejudice)
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To: blam

26 posted on 09/09/2004 6:16:50 PM PDT by Lockbar (Worried about lead poisoning? Then stop eating the paint chips, Dummy!)
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To: blam; FairOpinion; Ernest_at_the_Beach; SunkenCiv; 24Karet; 2Jedismom; 4ConservativeJustices; ...
Thanks Blam.
marron -- Doesn't that just tell us that there was a strong Celtic presence in pre-Roman Iberia?

Servant of the 9 -- Until the Germanic invasions starting in the first century BC, Spain was a Celtic country, as was Gaul.
spot on!
Mikey_1962 -- the Irish Celts gave the bagpipe to the Scots....evidently they did not get the joke
;') The pipes used to be found all over the Isles of the Mighty. Another survivor are the Northumbrian smallpipes.
Question_Assumptions -- Given that "Celtic" is defined by the language they speak, this really isn't all that surprising. I'm sure that many speakers of Indo-European languages aren't that genetically related to the original "Indo-Europeans" of the Caspian Sea region.
Quite agree, and would add that most genetic studies are hogwash. Fertile lines have exactly 46 lines of descent, weaving their way back through the past like the Caduceus.
Redleg Duke -- This "Boffin" needs a Claymore Enema!
:'D And he'd only need one! ;')
Please FREEPMAIL me if you want on, off, or alter the "Gods, Graves, Glyphs" PING list --
Archaeology/Anthropology/Ancient Cultures/Artifacts/Antiquities, etc.
The GGG Digest
-- Gods, Graves, Glyphs (alpha order)

27 posted on 09/09/2004 9:44:09 PM PDT by SunkenCiv (Unlike some people, I have a profile. Okay, maybe it's a little large...)
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To: blam
This argument pivots on how one defines "Celts", which is a debated topic, as I've mentioned on other threads. An important book which presents one side of the argument in this debate is:

Peter S. Wells, Beyond Celts, Germans, and Scythians: Archaeology and Identity in Iron Age Europe

28 posted on 09/09/2004 10:25:21 PM PDT by Fedora
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To: blam

Fascinating!


29 posted on 09/09/2004 10:25:53 PM PDT by nopardons
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To: Fedora
This argument pivots on how one defines "Celts"

I've always found this quite confusing. Thanks for the book suggestion.

30 posted on 09/09/2004 10:53:13 PM PDT by lizma
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To: blam
Does this mean, I get reparations?
31 posted on 09/09/2004 10:55:59 PM PDT by razorback-bert
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To: Desdemona

ping


32 posted on 09/09/2004 11:04:58 PM PDT by nickcarraway
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Comment #33 Removed by Moderator

Comment #34 Removed by Moderator

To: Happygal
That's okay. I'd sooner have something in common with the Spanish, than the French and Germans! ;-)

THE CELTS IN SPAIN

The Celtic Music of Spain -- Galicia & Asturias

35 posted on 09/09/2004 11:42:01 PM PDT by Polybius
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Comment #36 Removed by Moderator

To: Mikey_1962

Hey now, the Irish are simple Scots before the Scots got it right. We can't help it if they're only seond best ya know!

And btw, bagpipes rule.


37 posted on 09/10/2004 12:35:39 AM PDT by MacDorcha
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To: blam
Since the original article essentially agrees with what I'd inferred over the years; OK, so what?

European history equals Celtic migrations, times, patterns, names, etc.

As to the British Isles, I'm more interested in what was it like there and who was dislodged by the Iberian Celts and those who followed?
38 posted on 09/10/2004 12:37:40 AM PDT by norton
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To: norton

You want to get into european histroy? All languages from northern India to Ireland share a common root. All of them are Aryan. That's right, celts, northmen, greeks, and gauls are all originally from India.


39 posted on 09/10/2004 12:40:46 AM PDT by MacDorcha
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To: blam

That's great that they aren't decsended from frogs... but from strong races of man.... makes me proud... Scott-Spanish blood.


40 posted on 09/10/2004 12:42:37 AM PDT by Porterville (How can the median price of a home in CA be 450,000 dollars? How? Where is the money?)
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To: blam
"Irish, Scots and Welsh not Celts - scientists"

In the words of my ancestors, "Scientists: Pog mo thoin!"

41 posted on 09/10/2004 12:48:30 AM PDT by capitan_refugio
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To: blam
The study showed people in Celtic areas: Wales, Scotland, Ireland, Brittany and Cornwall, had strong genetic ties, but that this heritage had more in common with people from the Iberian peninsula

That would be the Picts.. Basque or Iberian in origins.. often allied with the Celts, in control of most all of scotland until the 10th century..
These are the people that drove the Romans to build Hadrians wall, and pretty much kept them south of that wall right up until the romans gave up on england and left..

42 posted on 09/10/2004 2:03:25 AM PDT by Drammach (Freedom; not just a job, it's an adventure..)
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To: Porterville

Two things I'm happy about black pudding and stout, haggis even.


43 posted on 09/10/2004 2:06:35 AM PDT by cyborg (http://mentalmumblings.blogspot.com/)
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To: Happygal
I'd sooner have something in common with the Spanish, than the French and Germans!

Hey, some of us are Irish, Spanish, French and German all mixed together. Although the Spanish is from the northwest where the bagpipes are traditional and people have red and blonde hair and the French is from Brittany and Normandy.

We all All-American mutts are usually at war with ourselves.

44 posted on 09/10/2004 4:57:34 AM PDT by Desdemona
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To: MacDorcha

Ok lets go get a beer


45 posted on 09/10/2004 5:16:21 AM PDT by Mikey_1962
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To: blam
Four out of five men in Europe share a common male ancestor who lived as a hunter...

I'll bet this hunter never imagined that his DNA would spawn so many spineless people.

46 posted on 09/10/2004 5:44:29 AM PDT by PBRSTREETGANG
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Comment #47 Removed by Moderator

To: blam

Fascinating BTTT for a later read


48 posted on 09/10/2004 12:20:14 PM PDT by MattinNJ (Only Arnold would have the stones to say Nixon was the reason he was a Republican.)
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To: Servant of the 9
Irish legend always claimed they had immigrated from Spain.

Galicia, if I'm not mistaken.

49 posted on 09/11/2004 4:08:08 PM PDT by MegaSilver
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To: SunkenCiv

" Quite agree, and would add that most genetic studies are hogwash. Fertile lines have exactly 46 lines of descent, weaving their way back through the past like the Caduceus."

Sorry to be slow, but could you explain that one to me, please?


50 posted on 11/20/2004 6:09:26 AM PST by Sarvet
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