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More challenges about whether Bush documents are authentic
Dallas Morning News ^ | September 11, 2004 | Pete Slover

Posted on 09/11/2004 12:50:42 PM PDT by tdadams

AUSTIN, Texas — The man named in a disputed memo as exerting pressure to "sugarcoat" George W. Bush's military record left the Texas Air National Guard a year and a half before the memo supposedly was written, his service record shows.

An order obtained by The Dallas Morning News shows that Col. Walter "Buck" Staudt was honorably discharged March 1, 1972. CBS News reported this week that a memo in which Staudt was described as interfering with officers' negative evaluations of the future president's service was dated Aug. 18, 1973.

That added to mounting questions about the authenticity of documents that seem to suggest Bush sought special treatment as a pilot, failed to carry out a superior's order to undergo a physical exam and was suspended from flying for failing to meet Air National Guard standards.

Staudt, who lives in New Braunfels, Texas, did not return calls seeking comment. His discharge paper was among documents obtained by The Morning News from official sources during 1999 research into Bush's Guard record.

A CBS staffer stood by the story, suggesting Staudt could have continued to exert influence over Guard officials. But a former high-ranking Guard official disputed that, saying retirement would have left Staudt powerless.

Authenticity of the memo and three others included in Wednesday's "60 Minutes" report came in for heavy criticism yesterday, prompting an unusual, on-air defense of the original work. Experts on typography said the memos appeared to have been computer-drafted on equipment not available at the time.

And the widow and son of the officer who supposedly wrote them, Lt. Col. Jerry Killian, who died in 1984, have said it wasn't his nature to keep detailed personal notes.

In its news broadcast yesterday, CBS said the documents were supported by both unnamed witnesses and others, including document examiners.

CBS anchor Dan Rather earlier told The Dallas Morning News that he had heard nothing to make him question the legitimacy of the memos. He attributed the backlash to partisan politics and competitive journalism.

"This story is true. The questions we raised about then-Lieutenant Bush's National Guard service are serious and legitimate," he said. "Until and unless someone shows me definitive proof that they are not, I don't see any reason to carry on a conversation with the professional rumor mill."

The Washington Post quoted Rather as saying CBS had talked to two people who worked with Killian — his superior, retired Maj. Gen. Bobby Hodges, and his administrative assistant Robert Strong — and both described the memos as consistent with what they knew of Killian. Hodges, who told CBS he was "familiar" with the documents, is an avid Bush supporter and "it took a lot for him to speak the truth," the Post quoted Rather as saying.

The Los Angeles Times, however, later quoted Hodges as saying that he believed the memos from Killian were not real. A CBS news executive confirmed that Hodges had changed his story.

Rather's interview with The Morning News concluded before the newspaper determined the date of Staudt's departure, but a CBS staffer with extensive knowledge of the story said later that the departure doesn't derail the story. "From what we've learned, Staudt remained very active after he retired," the staffer said, speaking on condition of anonymity. "He was a very bullying type, and that could have continued."

In the "60 Minutes" report, Rather said of the memo's contents: "Killian says Col. Buck Staudt, the man in charge of the Texas Air National Guard, is putting on pressure to 'sugarcoat' an evaluation of Lt. Bush."

Staudt was the person Bush initially contacted about Guard service, and he was the group commander at Ellington Air Force Base in Houston when Bush arrived there to fly an F-102 jet. He transferred later to Austin, where he served as chief of staff for the Air National Guard.

In the disputed memo, Killian supposedly wrote "(another officer) gave me a message today from group regarding Bush's (evaluation) and Staudt is pushing to sugarcoat it."

It continues: "Austin is not happy either."

The CBS staffer said the memo appears to recognize that Staudt has retired, since it differentiates between his displeasure and that of Austin, where he served his final Guard stint.

But another Texas Air National Guard official who served in that period said the memo appears to wrongly associate Staudt with his group command in Houston, and — based on that mistake — the memo distinguishes his views from that of the Austin Guard.

Retired Col. Earl Lively, director of Air National Guard operations for the state headquarters during 1972 and 1973, said Staudt "wasn't on the scene" after retirement, and that CBS' remote-bullying thesis makes no sense.

"He couldn't bully them. He wasn't in the Guard," Lively said. "He couldn't affect their promotions. Once you're gone from the Guard, you don't have any authority."

Bush has not commented publicly about the CBS report, and aides say his honorable discharge proves he fulfilled his obligations.


TOPICS: Culture/Society; News/Current Events
KEYWORDS: bushmemos; cbs; danrather; forgery; killian; nationalguard; staudt; tang
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CBS and Kerry's Kool-Aid drinkers are desperately grabbing, against all hope, to explain how these memos might possibly not be forged. It's a house of cards that's collapsing quickly and thoroughly.

Here's hoping this is a the straw on the camel's back that gets Dan Rather shown to the door.

Schadenfraude!

1 posted on 09/11/2004 12:50:43 PM PDT by tdadams
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To: tdadams

"A CBS staffer stood by the story, suggesting Staudt could have continued to exert influence "

Give up already!


2 posted on 09/11/2004 12:54:33 PM PDT by Redcoat LI ("I am the great and powerful Kerry! Look at my medals!")
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To: tdadams
I think the question is no longer are the memos legit or not. The question is: Will Dan Rather still be at CBS two weeks from now.

Gum

3 posted on 09/11/2004 12:54:46 PM PDT by ChewedGum (aka King of Fools)
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To: tdadams

Hopefully, it will make the media gun-shy about being quick to accept a story that doesn't stand on its own two legs. If it can't pass the scrutiny of the blogosphere, it doesn't deserve to be disseminated, period.


4 posted on 09/11/2004 12:56:09 PM PDT by goldstategop (In Memory Of A Dearly Beloved Friend Who Lives On In My Heart Forever)
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To: tdadams

I like to call it Kerry-Aide the new mind numbing punch-oh yeah!


5 posted on 09/11/2004 12:58:13 PM PDT by aft_lizard (I actually voted for John Kerry before I voted against him)
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To: tdadams

New Braunfels, Texas.
Ahh...home the the NewBraunfels SMOKER! How ironic!


6 posted on 09/11/2004 12:59:00 PM PDT by loboinok (Gun control is hitting what you aim at!)
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To: tdadams

7 posted on 09/11/2004 12:59:03 PM PDT by JoJo Gunn (Help control the Leftist population - have them spayed or neutered.)
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To: JoJo Gunn

oh, look at the doggie taking a Dan Blather!


8 posted on 09/11/2004 1:01:51 PM PDT by loboinok (Gun control is hitting what you aim at!)
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To: tdadams
It's amazing that, in order to believe this story is true you also have to believe:

1. The rare typewriter that could have typed the memo was used at the Texas Air National Guard office for routine memos.
2. The retired general could have exerted influence after retirement.
3. The White House used the same office equipment that the Texas Air National Guard office used.

Makes sense to me... ;-)

-PJ

9 posted on 09/11/2004 1:01:56 PM PDT by Political Junkie Too (It's still not safe to vote Democrat.)
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To: Redcoat LI

As strongly as CBS is standing by their reporters and their investigative people, doesnt that set them up for an even bigger fall when they have to eat their words?


10 posted on 09/11/2004 1:02:48 PM PDT by treeclimber ("We will hunt the terrorists in every dark corner of the earth. We will be relentless." GWB 2001)
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To: Political Junkie Too
Sorry. General should be Colonel.

-PJ

11 posted on 09/11/2004 1:02:50 PM PDT by Political Junkie Too (It's still not safe to vote Democrat.)
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To: Political Junkie Too

keep on emailing cbs demanding rather be fired!


12 posted on 09/11/2004 1:05:17 PM PDT by KavMan
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To: tdadams
Gee, let me think. Now how would I go about confirming Staudt's supposed influence. Oh yeah, I remember. I'm a journalist. I get on a plane and go to his house and camp out until I get a quote that he did or did not. Gee that's way too hard for me to do.

Have all writers gone nuts. Just go and ask the guy for God's sake!

13 posted on 09/11/2004 1:05:30 PM PDT by Doc Savage
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To: tdadams

"He was a very bullying type, and that could have continued."

fine, let's continue to besmirth the reputation of veterans. . . Sheesh


14 posted on 09/11/2004 1:06:18 PM PDT by AMDG&BVMH (Proudly served in the National Guard)
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To: treeclimber

It is rather's last stand.


15 posted on 09/11/2004 1:11:43 PM PDT by rocklobster11
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To: AMDG&BVMH
I'm getting very tired of these defenses that rely on all sorts of "could haves" and "was possibles" to have actually happened in combination in order for the original allegation to stand up.

-PJ

16 posted on 09/11/2004 1:12:21 PM PDT by Political Junkie Too (It's still not safe to vote Democrat.)
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To: tdadams
Yeah, this story was on the front page of today's Dallas Morning News. Surprised the hell out of me. The DMN is not a left wing flamer, it exists solely to foster the other business interests of Belo corporation, it's owner. But, generally, the DMN is left wing because it's most prized and sacred constituency, the Dallas black community, is.

But, this story may be instructive as a sign of things to come. Remember the story about the democrat politician that was so crooked that even the other democrat politicians noticed? Well, maybe we are reaching the point where Kerry is so lost that even some of the ultra-left wing media is beginning to notice. There are prizes to be won for breaking big stories, here. Some will be at the expense of other left wing outfits forging documents, sure. But, maybe (I am a dreamer, you know) some will be willing to ask of Kerry the same questions they ask of Bush. And, I hope some one will start with Kerry's military record of crime and corruption.

17 posted on 09/11/2004 1:12:24 PM PDT by Tacis (Spiritual Help For Kerrorists - "WHAT WOULD BENEDICT ARNOLD DO?")
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To: tdadams
CBS/Rather are going to keep spouting the same ole bull and march on.......we will need to play some hard ball to crack through their game plan. I suggest a series of phony memos sent to CBS and Rather by snail mail......thousands and thousands.........I think we can do it. Talk radio can promote it as well.
18 posted on 09/11/2004 1:13:16 PM PDT by tioga
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To: AMDG&BVMH
"He was a very bullying type, and that could have continued."

If he was the bullying type,which I very much doubt,he was a bully because he had rank,and could do bad stuff to you.

All that changes when you retire.

Another Serviceman thrown in front of the train to save C.b.S's sorry ass.

19 posted on 09/11/2004 1:14:45 PM PDT by Redcoat LI ("I am the great and powerful Kerry! Look at my medals!")
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To: treeclimber
As strongly as CBS is standing by their reporters and their investigative people, doesnt that set them up for an even bigger fall when they have to eat their words?

Yes it does.

20 posted on 09/11/2004 1:16:44 PM PDT by Redcoat LI ("I am the great and powerful Kerry! Look at my medals!")
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To: tdadams

These people never give up.


21 posted on 09/11/2004 1:18:42 PM PDT by Fiddlstix (This Tagline for sale. (Presented by TagLines R US))
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To: tdadams

The standard for CBS is that one must find "definitive proof" (which CBS will never concede exists) that their anti-Bush smear documents are a fraud. And definitive proof (which CBS will never say exists) that SwiftVet anti-Kerry claims are true.

One can only hope that the wider public begins to notice these things.


22 posted on 09/11/2004 1:19:51 PM PDT by Starrgaizr
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To: Redcoat LI

If he was a bully, his retirement would have occasioned great rejoicing among the formerly bullied, who would then take great joy in showiong him how much power he no longer had.


23 posted on 09/11/2004 1:24:58 PM PDT by libstripper
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To: tdadams

http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/1212927/posts
Yet Another CBS Document Experiment (CBS file vs. Word document) [perfect match]

There are so many stories out that demo the FRAUDcast ...

Here are some others, in addition to the above...

http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/1212991/posts
TYPOGRAPHIC PROBLEMS WITH THE BUSH MEMOS


Typewriter Expert can't duplicate Guard memos using IBM Composer
http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/1213108/posts

In addition, here are some other more recent threads of note to most interested in this stuff:

Seems obvious to me that someone took a real signature, copied it and added it to the MS Word forgeries... probably too tough for this "expert" to figure out this tactic... LOL... The REAL question now is who did it, and why.

---->>>

From "Rather Forges Ahead"... regarding his "expert" authenticator...

"Matley comes up from Google as a "graphologist" and has authored books on how your handwriting shows your personallity."

CREDENTIALS:

Certification with commendation, Paul de Sainte Colombe Center, January 28, 1981

------

Did a google on Paul de.......

It's about pen and pencil therapy!!!!!!!! The guys a loon

60 posted on 09/11/2004 4:05:08 AM EDT by Poincare
http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/1212980/posts?page=60#60

--->

You will probably also enjoy these:

It would take an incredible amount of fussing around with the Composer to reproduce these memos. In addition, there are major font availability questions that do not appear to be answerable, and in addition, the ANG unit was using a fixed, not proportional, typewriter for other memos. Plus, the style of those memos is not even close to the style of these forgeries.

Check:

http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/1212833/posts
Another Shoe Drops...May 24th Memo from Killian Office Not Similar to CBS Memo

No chance in hell, BP. Check out this thread.
http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/1212786/posts

You are tilting at windmills with the IBM Selectric Composer theory.

Go to this link:
http://www.ibmcomposer.org/docs/Selectric%20Composer%20Operations%20Manual.pdf
which is a user's manual showing some sample typed text using this typewriter.

Rather could get any expert he wants to attempt to do this, but it may even then be impossible. Even then he would have to explain the style differences and why it was done on the wrong size paper and many other anamolies.

Meanwhile, it is trivial to compose these on MS Word.

These are clear forgeries, Danny - time for you and CBS FRAUDcasting network to hang it up
/


24 posted on 09/11/2004 1:27:02 PM PDT by AFPhys ((.Praying for President Bush, our troops, their families, and all my American neighbors..))
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To: AFPhys

25 posted on 09/11/2004 1:29:10 PM PDT by billorites (freepo ergo sum)
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To: libstripper
If he was a bully, his retirement would have occasioned great rejoicing among the formerly bullied, who would then take great joy in showiong him how much power he no longer had.

Exactly.

26 posted on 09/11/2004 1:30:31 PM PDT by Redcoat LI ("I am the great and powerful Kerry! Look at my medals!")
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To: Political Junkie Too
3. The White House used the same office equipment that the Texas Air National Guard office used.
? How so?

If you think about it, the copy of a copy of a copy nature of the fraudlent "memo" is one of the strongest indictments of it. First because that is a natural way to obscure evidence of fraud, and secondly because if the writer really was afraid of his retired former superior, the writer would have held the original close and made few if any copies.

But of course the chain of custody is a rotten apple, too - the widow and surviving son of the "author" of this "memo" wouldn't have known to even look for it, and don't know how anyone else would have found it. And if indeed copies of copies of copies have been floating around, exactly why does one of them show up only now, after Bush has been in three previous high-profile political campaigns?

Of course the fact that the "memo" is trivial to produce with Microsoft Word and would have been tedious to produce on any 1972 typewriter is the strongest evidence aside from the fact that hardly any typewriter would give you curved quotation marks - and that Times New Roman wasn't available on typewriters.


27 posted on 09/11/2004 1:34:28 PM PDT by conservatism_IS_compassion (The idea around which liberalism coheres is that NOTHING actually matters but PR.)
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To: tdadams
"I don't see any reason to carry on a conversation with the professional rumor mill."

No, that doesn't sound desperate and defensive at all, now does it?

28 posted on 09/11/2004 1:35:25 PM PDT by muir_redwoods
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To: tioga

Are you kidding? Rather laid down the gauntlet by saying "This story is true" and that "he stands by it" in the face of such blatant forgeries. Enough reporters see red meat just waiting for anyone who can get there first to bury CBS.

The undersea earthquake has already taken place. We are now just waiting for the tsunami to make its way to shore...


29 posted on 09/11/2004 1:36:27 PM PDT by DB ()
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To: tdadams
"From what we've learned, Staudt remained very active after he retired," the staffer said, speaking on condition of anonymity. "He was a very bullying type, and that could have continued."

They are so BUSTED! There are *thousands* of google hits on Col Staudt, but the above comment is the only one to claim that he's a "bully."

The Dems are just making this stuff up as they go!

1 Full Legislative Day Left Until The AWB Expires

30 posted on 09/11/2004 1:40:29 PM PDT by Southack (Media Bias means that Castro won't be punished for Cuban war crimes against Black Angolans in Africa)
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To: muir_redwoods

Dan can dismiss it with the same epithets that were hurled at Drudge when he started cracking stories and injecting honest discussion of important issues into the MSM.

But epithets don't dismiss the very real fact that noteworthy challenges have been put to these documents and unless Rather can authenticate them, he and his show have been dealt a serious credibility blow.


31 posted on 09/11/2004 1:40:49 PM PDT by tdadams (Alcohol, Tobacco, and Firearms... sounds like an invitation to my cousin's wedding.)
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To: Starrgaizr
The standard for CBS is that one must find "definitive proof" (which CBS will never concede exists) that their anti-Bush smear documents are a fraud. And definitive proof (which CBS will never say exists) that SwiftVet anti-Kerry claims are true.

But they don't need "definitive proof" to make charges against the President.

32 posted on 09/11/2004 1:40:52 PM PDT by PMCarey
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To: Southack
The Dems are just making this stuff up as they go!

You're quite right about that. The definitely are.

33 posted on 09/11/2004 1:41:52 PM PDT by tdadams (Alcohol, Tobacco, and Firearms... sounds like an invitation to my cousin's wedding.)
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To: Political Junkie Too

"all sorts of "could haves" and "was possibles" to have actually happened in combination in order for the original allegation to stand up."

and so many of those 'could haves' involve misquoting or using other people . . . just so many tools for the elites, aren't we all --


34 posted on 09/11/2004 1:42:11 PM PDT by AMDG&BVMH (Proudly served in the National Guard)
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To: tdadams

According PeopleData.com:

https://www.peopledata.com/query1.php?first=Walter&last=Staudt&state=TX&ref=yhsumres_bgc&se=YH

Walter B. Staudt is 82 and living in Texas. Why the hell hasn't someone interviewed him already? This could be the lynch pin to the whole story.


35 posted on 09/11/2004 1:42:18 PM PDT by Catphish
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To: DB

I want him fired, not just laughed at.


36 posted on 09/11/2004 1:43:17 PM PDT by tioga
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To: tdadams

The emperor has no clothes.


37 posted on 09/11/2004 1:43:37 PM PDT by JudgemAll
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To: JudgemAll

FReepers,

Please keep up the posts. Also please support the websites that do the research to prove that these documents are frauds. We will win this. The MSM can't bury this. CBS will lose. Keep it up. Have faith. We will prevail!


38 posted on 09/11/2004 1:46:47 PM PDT by '61 Libertarian
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To: conservatism_IS_compassion
The multiple generation copy would do a great job of retaining a readable facsimile of a pasted and pohotocopied signature while changing it just enough to make it look like it wasn't a direct copy of one of the Lt. colonel's other signatures from genuine documents. Thus, the perpetrator of this forgery probably pasted the copies of the Lt. colonel's signatures, taken from copies of genuine original documents, to the master forgeries. Then the perp ran enoung generations to alter the signatures' appearances enough so it would be difficult to prove they were taken from other documents. From there it was easy to send it on to Rather, especially because he was propbably in on the scam in th first place..
39 posted on 09/11/2004 1:46:54 PM PDT by libstripper
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To: tdadams
A CBS staffer stood by the story, suggesting Staudt could have continued to exert influence over Guard officials. But a former high-ranking Guard official disputed that, saying retirement would have left Staudt powerless.

The emperor is begging for more clothes... and stupid non-alibis It's CBS which is on the line, not the Guards' assertions anyways, duh!

40 posted on 09/11/2004 1:47:27 PM PDT by JudgemAll
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To: billorites

That is excellent! Well done!


41 posted on 09/11/2004 1:48:14 PM PDT by meatloaf
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To: tdadams

They need to name the witnesses what do they have to be afraid of anyway?


42 posted on 09/11/2004 1:48:17 PM PDT by tiki (Win one against the Flipper)
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To: tioga
Do you think CBS can have their number one "news anchor" laughed at every time he shows his face? Bad for business.
43 posted on 09/11/2004 1:49:29 PM PDT by DB ()
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To: muir_redwoods

Remember Clinton when confronted by Morris' polling: "we'll just have to win this thing, then."

This is Rather's "Monica moment." Conceding the docs were a fraud, assuming Drudge's account that Rather single-handedly pushed this story at CBS, dooms Rather. His only chance is toughing it out ala Clinton. "I have to get back to running the country" or in Rather's case "I have to get back to running CBS into the dustbin of history."


44 posted on 09/11/2004 1:50:55 PM PDT by Starrgaizr
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To: DB

I wish I had your faith. On a side note, I just saw the first Dem shill, flat out state that these documents are not right and he is afraid his party is responsible. He did not stick with the party line, will there be a second?


45 posted on 09/11/2004 1:51:48 PM PDT by tioga
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To: Redcoat LI
Give up already!

Really! It's degenerated into a Maxwell Smart-style "Would you believe..." exchange now, with every feeble parry becoming more and more outlandish and pathetic.

46 posted on 09/11/2004 1:52:39 PM PDT by RogueIsland
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To: tdadams
The Los Angeles Times, however, later quoted Hodges as saying that he believed the memos from Killian were not real.

HODGES SAID HE WAS MISLED BY CBS

47 posted on 09/11/2004 1:52:41 PM PDT by tuesday afternoon (Everything happens for a reason. - 40 and 43)
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To: tdadams
"This story is true. The questions we raised about then-Lieutenant Bush's National Guard service are serious and legitimate," he said. "Until and unless someone shows me definitive proof that they are not, I don't see any reason to carry on a conversation with the professional rumor mill."

With this statememt Rather is stomping his feet and saying that his story is true because he said it is and that he doesn't have to provide any proof or evidence!

Actually, he and CBS are really the ones peddling rumors. They have not identified the source of the documents and one of their "sources" they relied on (Hodges) has recinded his statements. How dare he claim the right to dictate by fiat what is true and what is not and demand that others prove him wrong. Any reputable media enterprise with even rudimentary ethics would bounce him out the door after making such a statement on the public airways. The fact that CBS evidently agrees with him means that they have absolutely no credibility, a conclusion that many of us reached a long time ago.

The so called "main stream media" have become merely priviledged partisan players in an elite game of Presidential politics. They no longer serve a beneficial public purpose in my opinion; indeed, as evidenced by this example, they are an active menace to democratic self-government. Their so-called "entertainment" programs also degrade the culture and befoul the atmosphere in which we attempt to raise our children to be decent human beings and responsible citizens. Please explain to me why in the age of cable and satelite we should continue to grant broadcast licenses to these despicable excuses for "business?"

48 posted on 09/11/2004 1:56:09 PM PDT by politeia
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To: '61 Libertarian

49 posted on 09/11/2004 1:58:42 PM PDT by petercooper (All I wanted to know about Islam, I learned on 9-11-01.)
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To: billorites
This picture is so cool, it needs repeated. GREAT WORK!

Dan Rather, stubborn and still defending his poor decisions, now stands on a precipice... worrying that one of his up-and-coming collaborators will force him to take the rap for forged documents. Confused over why he is being embedded in Microsoft software, he wonders, "Should I be honored, or is someone making fun of me again?"

Hoppy


50 posted on 09/11/2004 1:59:06 PM PDT by Hop A Long Cassidy
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