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lETTERS TO THE EDITOR The Cost of Illegal Immigration
The Washington times ^ | Sept, 13, 2004 | Wilson L. Faris

Posted on 09/13/2004 8:26:07 PM PDT by television is just wrong

Letters to the Editor

The cost of illegal immigration

Regarding "Rounding up all illegals 'not realistic' " (Page 1, Friday) by Jerry Seper: Asa Hutchinson has once again clearly demonstrated that he is not up to the task of protecting the U.S. borders. His statements and inaction show that rich bureaucrats have little view of reality from the gated communities in which they live. Mr. Hutchinson speaks of a lack of will on the part of the American people to uproot illegal aliens in the United States. How did Mr. Hutchinson arrive at such a conclusion? The only lack of will is on his part. He speaks of the American people not wanting to cover the cost of searching out and capturing the illegals. This ploy is just a smoke screen to take the pressure off of his shoulders so he can return to his country club for a round of golf. Illegal aliens, and there are far more than the 8 million that Mr. Hutchinson acknowledges, cost the American taxpayer more than September 11, the Iraq war and every natural disaster each year. Our medical, legal and educational systems are cluttered with them. Our streets, not Mr. Hutchinson's, are plagued by illegal alien gangs. He speaks of "compassion" for illegal aliens, yet he never mentions compassion for the American citizens who pay his salary with nothing to show for it. Mr. Hutchinson is supposed to be working for the American citizen, not for some illegal-alien front organization. We need to replace Mr. Hutchinson and replace him with a hard-nosed realist who wants the job and will do it.

WILSON L. FARIS Gaithersburg

(Excerpt) Read more at washtimes.com ...


TOPICS: Crime/Corruption; Culture/Society; Extended News; Foreign Affairs; Government; Miscellaneous; News/Current Events; US: Arizona; US: California; US: District of Columbia; US: Nevada; US: New Mexico
KEYWORDS: aliens; asahutchinson; corporategreed; deportation; hutchinson; illegalimmigration; immigrantlist; immigration; politicallycorrect; specialintersest
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Fire ASA Hutchinson, reason insubordination.
1 posted on 09/13/2004 8:26:08 PM PDT by television is just wrong
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To: television is just wrong
Last night Matt Drudge said the equivalent of 60 jumbo jets full of illegals a DAY gets into this country. Imagine that if even one on each plane were a rapist or a killer, how many people in this country suffer!
2 posted on 09/13/2004 8:29:15 PM PDT by Enterprise (The left hates the Constitution. Islamic Fascism hates America. Natural allies.)
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To: television is just wrong

DAMN STRAIGHT! Good job!


3 posted on 09/13/2004 8:30:27 PM PDT by Prime Choice (The Log Cabin Republicans AREN'T.)
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To: television is just wrong

Kind of expect this sort of letter from one of the border states.

Wonder if it made more impact upstairs coming from a Maryland burg instead of El Paso or San Diego.

Regardless, nice job Mr. Faris


4 posted on 09/13/2004 8:37:48 PM PDT by 1_Inch_Group
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To: television is just wrong
"cost the American taxpayer more than September 11, the Iraq war and every natural disaster each year. "

Obviously factually incorrect. Faris sounds like a textbook case of a xenophobe. Since he hates "rich" people who live in gated communities and enjoy golf, he probably is in a lower income class and fears competition from immigrant laborers willing to work longer and harder than him.

5 posted on 09/13/2004 8:40:40 PM PDT by bayourod (Kerry's promise not to act until attacked gives the terrorists carte blanch to attack.)
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To: All

Hutchinson is a joke- go here for a pathetic interview with him:
http://www.johnandkenshow.com/audio.php?offset=0&per_page=15

http://www.johnandkenshow.com/


6 posted on 09/13/2004 8:41:39 PM PDT by EvilRightWingRepublican
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To: All

I will say this- Hutchinson is just a stoodge- since Bush plans to pass FTAA as soon as he is elected, why bother wasting money on border security when your going to erase the border anyway.


7 posted on 09/13/2004 8:43:00 PM PDT by EvilRightWingRepublican
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To: television is just wrong
Fire ASA Hutchinson, reason insubordination.

He's following orders from the man in the White House. Neither one of them care what we think about illegal immigration.

8 posted on 09/13/2004 8:47:16 PM PDT by janetgreen
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To: bayourod

Faris sounds like a textbook case of a xenophobe.

Tell me, bayourod. Since you hire illegals, how do you sleep at night knowing you cost the taxpayers around you a fortune subsidizing your cheap labor? I suppose you think you're entitled. I hope one of these days RICO will come knocking on your door. The employers of these people steal from each and every one of us and put the savings in your pocket.


9 posted on 09/13/2004 8:50:39 PM PDT by ETERNAL WARMING (He is faithful!)
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To: ETERNAL WARMING

Here here. Well said.


10 posted on 09/13/2004 8:51:59 PM PDT by Righter-than-Rush
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To: 1_Inch_Group

Ask the rancher who owns this spread in Cochise County, Arizona. Those are abandoned backpacks hanging on the fence -- found at a couple of load-out sites he found on his property last week. A couple of weeks ago the theme was hats. The hills in the background are in Mexico.

11 posted on 09/13/2004 9:02:31 PM PDT by JackelopeBreeder (Proud to be a mean-spirited and divisive loco gringo armed vigilante terrorist cucaracha!)
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To: janetgreen

He is answerable to us. We are the taxpayers.


12 posted on 09/13/2004 9:06:23 PM PDT by television is just wrong
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To: ETERNAL WARMING
"The employers of these people steal from each and every one of us "

Faris and other anti-immigrant zealots hate employers, hate capitalism, hate businesses, hate freedom, and want to create a police state.

Some people such as Faris are so full of hatred and jealousy of immigrant laborers that they would risk destroying the greatest period of prosperity in the the history of the world just to coerce an employer to hire them.

13 posted on 09/13/2004 9:06:41 PM PDT by bayourod (Kerry's promise not to act until attacked gives the terrorists carte blanch to attack.)
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To: bayourod

Just a minute. We are not anti immigrant, we are anti illegal immigration. That's a difference.

Wealthy people do just lock themselves away from the crime and corruption. The middle and low income classes are left to deal with the liberal beliefs and guilt.


14 posted on 09/13/2004 9:08:18 PM PDT by television is just wrong
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To: bayourod; ninenot; A. Pole


The open border policies that you support will have the US become a Social Democracy, unless you can prevent displaced US born workers and poor immigrants from voting. The attitude you and others display, pure social darwinism is the biggest threat to destroying prosperity, and will end up finishing what the Great Society started, a trasnformation from what was a Free Republic to a Social Democracy.


15 posted on 09/13/2004 9:11:16 PM PDT by RFT1
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To: television is just wrong

And the middle class and working class will put liberals in power if these trends persist, and those in gated communities will find a whole bunch of new progressive taxes to deal with, along with that pesky "health security" payroll tax.


16 posted on 09/13/2004 9:12:55 PM PDT by RFT1
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To: television is just wrong
"We are not anti immigrant, we are anti illegal immigration."

Then if Congress enacts President Bush's guest worker program they will become legal and all your objections will be satisfied?

Your programed Buchanan/Tancredo response is supposed to be "No, since their initial entry was unauthorized I will always hate them".

17 posted on 09/13/2004 9:15:42 PM PDT by bayourod (Kerry's promise not to act until attacked gives the terrorists carte blanch to attack.)
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To: RFT1
"The open border policies that you support "

I don't support an open borders policy and we do not have an open borders policy now. I support President Bush.

18 posted on 09/13/2004 9:19:16 PM PDT by bayourod (Kerry's promise not to act until attacked gives the terrorists carte blanch to attack.)
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To: television is just wrong

"Welcome now my friends, to the parade that never ends..."

Hereford, Arizona. 10:30 on a Monday morning, 7.8 miles north of the border. This is a dry wash that goes through the middle of town.

19 posted on 09/13/2004 9:26:28 PM PDT by JackelopeBreeder (Proud to be a mean-spirited and divisive loco gringo armed vigilante terrorist cucaracha!)
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To: bayourod

No, we have a defacto open border policy...anyone who thinks otherwise should stop using recreational drugs.


20 posted on 09/13/2004 9:26:44 PM PDT by lawdog
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To: television is just wrong
Asa Hutchinson is only doing the bidding of his bosses.

It's just sad that his only job is to whitewash and stonewall. A waste of a public servant. If he was to be removed, some other toady would just take his place.

21 posted on 09/13/2004 9:30:12 PM PDT by Nachum (Kerry spells "Fine Dining")
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To: lawdog

Career suicide for a Border Patrol agent: do your job too well.


22 posted on 09/13/2004 9:31:37 PM PDT by JackelopeBreeder (Proud to be a mean-spirited and divisive loco gringo armed vigilante terrorist cucaracha!)
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To: lawdog
"we have a defacto open border policy"

I doubt that the families of the thousands who have died trying to cross the border would agree with you, much less the millions who paid their life savings to coyotes.

If you know something the rest of us don't know, you could probably sell you secret to the drug cartels for enough to live in luxury the rest of your life.

23 posted on 09/13/2004 9:37:49 PM PDT by bayourod (Kerry's promise not to act until attacked gives the terrorists carte blanch to attack.)
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To: All

buyourod must be on Karl Rove's payroll. There is no other excuse for him showing up on every immigration thread and parroting his anti-Tancredo babble. Maybe Tancredo and Buchanan ran over his dog or stole his wife. He sure does hate em'! According to him, if your anti-illegal invasion your anti-capitalist and anti-American, I have seen other Bush robots say things along these lines frequently on Freep. Its pretty sad.

If you are a real conservative and DARE disagree with Bush's globalist new world order your all of the sudden a "liberal" and an anti-freedom terrorist. The logic of that defies explanation. I love how these fools dismiss those of us(70% of the US population by the way) who want something done about the borders as "Kerry plants" or "divisive liberals".

I despise liberals and liberalism so being called a liberal is rather laughable to me. Nice tactic Bush troopers!

Bush is a good man, too bad he is a globalist. Stop the FTAA!!


24 posted on 09/13/2004 9:38:16 PM PDT by EvilRightWingRepublican
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To: bayourod
Faris sounds like a textbook case of a xenophobe.

Since Faris only mentions illegal aliens in his letter, it appears he only has problems with those foreigners who are in the US illegally. If Faris was really a xenophobe, he would dislike all foreigners, whether they were in the US legally or not. Of course, FReepers have come to know you, bayourod, as a textbook case of a pro-illegal immigration cheerleader.

Since he hates "rich" people who live in gated communities and enjoy golf, he probably is in a lower income class and fears competition from immigrant laborers willing to work longer and harder than him.

You forgot to mention that illegal aliens are willing to work for cheaper wages than most Americans are willing to work for. Plus, illegal aliens get food stamps, welfare, and unlimited free medical care on the side to supplement their wages.

25 posted on 09/13/2004 9:40:03 PM PDT by judgeandjury
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To: television is just wrong

Good article. Mr. Faris lives around alot of gangs from different countries. I imagine he fears for his life and his whole family especially if he doesn't live where there is a 24 hour guard. Gaited communities are becoming more and more down here on the border.

Wouldn't it be nice if the government would tell us the cost of illegal immigration? The feds pump in over a billion a year to keep this place going in South Texas. They pay almost 80% of all the health care. Now we are going to get more of your money since the Medicare included illegals.


26 posted on 09/13/2004 9:43:16 PM PDT by texastoo (a "has-been" Republican)
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To: bayourod
Then if Congress enacts President Bush's guest worker program they will become legal and all your objections will be satisfied?

Absolutely not. I am 100% opposed to rewarding anybody for violating the law, regardless of whether the lawbreaker is an American or a foreigner.

27 posted on 09/13/2004 9:43:48 PM PDT by judgeandjury
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To: EvilRightWingRepublican

Privatize profits; socialize costs. Compassionate conservatism at its best.


28 posted on 09/13/2004 9:44:56 PM PDT by JackelopeBreeder (Proud to be a mean-spirited and divisive loco gringo armed vigilante terrorist cucaracha!)
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To: All

I have lived in SoCal, has bayourod? I now live inthe #1 "Hispanic Hotspot" of Raleigh,NC and boy is this place in for a surprise in 5 years! The hispanic(illegal) population has increased 500% in 3 years!!


29 posted on 09/13/2004 9:48:08 PM PDT by EvilRightWingRepublican
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To: EvilRightWingRepublican

"If you are a real conservative and DARE disagree with Bush's globalist new world order your all of the sudden a "liberal" and an anti-freedom terrorist. The logic of that defies explanation."

Yes it defies explanation becuse, People who are for open boarders loath law and order and traditional American way of life. Those who do not support law enforcement and a traditional way of life are not conservative they are radical liberals.

People who are for open boarders say its all in the name of capitalism and prosperity, but do not mention the cost of necessary infrastructure needed to support the growth, passed as higher taxes to legal citizens, higher taxes is not a conservative value, but a radial liberal agenda.

In summary we know the radial liberals when they beat their drums, it’s just new to have many of those who do so claim to be republican.


30 posted on 09/13/2004 9:54:51 PM PDT by seastay
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To: bayourod

60 jumbo jets full of illegals a DAY --- bump

>>>"Faris sounds like a textbook case of a xenophobe. Since he hates "rich" people who live in gated communities and enjoy golf, he probably is in a lower income class and fears competition from immigrant laborers willing to work longer and harder than him."

This kind of an attitude is why conservatives may yet bolt the Republican party in November. Actually all we have to do is stay home. Why vote for someone who wants to destroy our nation.

Apparently some enjoy importing poverty, disease, unassimilating 3rd world cultures, and Democrat voters.

bayourod, I guess you would say, "Screw the lines for the legal immigrants, it's every many for himself." Hopefully you'll say your comments were just made in sarcastic jest.

Hoppy


31 posted on 09/13/2004 10:08:10 PM PDT by Hop A Long Cassidy
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To: EvilRightWingRepublican

Raleigh, NC? What attracts the illegals to Raleigh?


32 posted on 09/13/2004 10:11:40 PM PDT by Calico Cat (the simplest solution is usually the correct one)
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To: bayourod
"I don't support an open borders policy and we do not have an open borders policy now. I support President Bush."

So do I. But that doesn't mean I agree with all of his policies. What kind of conservative can't think for himself and maintain principled opposition to policies he doesn't agree with? And the decision by this administration not to enforce existing immigration laws vigorously (and to advocate a guest-worker program that amounts to another mass amnesty for those who have broken our nation's laws) is one of the policies I disagree with most.

If Bush were to shift course and either open the borders wide or clamp them tightly shut -- would your convictions on this matter change smartly right along with the change in administration policy?

Current immigration policies strike me as good short term politics (heaven forbid that we either look mean to the soccer moms or appear xenophobic to the sensitive types or deprive people who desperately need them of gardeners or maids), but long-term suicide for the Republican party, at least in any recognizably conservative form.

While many Hispanics and other immigrants have indeed been converted to the conservative cause and have come into the Republican party, their numbers are dwarfed by the numbers that enter the Democrat party. As long as high immigration rates keep a steady flow of people who are more likely to benefit from government than to be hurt by confiscatory taxes, that calculus isn't going to change, and the Republicans will only drop further behind in this game

33 posted on 09/13/2004 10:15:21 PM PDT by Agrarian (The second most important election of the year is the Senate race in South Dakota -- donate to Thune)
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To: Hop A Long Cassidy
"Actually all we have to do is stay home. Why vote for someone who wants to destroy our nation. "

All one fourth of one percent of you. Have you already forgotten Graf?

34 posted on 09/13/2004 10:15:31 PM PDT by bayourod (Kerry's promise not to act until attacked gives the terrorists carte blanch to attack.)
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To: Agrarian
"What kind of conservative can't think for himself and maintain principled opposition to policies he doesn't agree with?"

The kind who believe the anti-Bush Buchanan/Tancredo propaganda that we have an open border policy but that all illegal immigration could be easily stopped by simply building a huge wall all around the United States.

The type who believe that in an extremely tight labor market we could remove 10 million employees without impacting the economy.

The type who believe that the government can force businesses to pay exorbitant wages to unproductive employees rather than move their factories over seas.

The type who believe that the only difference between a good person and a bad person is the current status of their immigration papers.

The type who squat behind cacti at night fingering their guns and fantasizing about zapping Mexicans while Mexican immigrants are sacrificing their lives in Afghanistan and Iraq in hopes of obtaining American citizenship. (You are aware of the American flag draped coffins being sent to Mexico for burial aren't you?)

35 posted on 09/13/2004 10:35:03 PM PDT by bayourod (Kerry's promise not to act until attacked gives the terrorists carte blanch to attack.)
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To: bayourod

Randy took the border -- he lost to the urban dwellers in Tucson (70 miles north of the border) who liked the cheap prices on their labor and didn't give a shit about those who were taking the damages.

I still get a hoot out of going to the malls in Tucson and shouting "La Migra!" in the food court, then watching customers and employees scatter like cucarachas. It's important to have some fun every day.


36 posted on 09/13/2004 10:39:59 PM PDT by JackelopeBreeder (Proud to be a mean-spirited and divisive loco gringo armed vigilante terrorist cucaracha!)
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To: bayourod
The type who squat behind cacti at night fingering their guns and fantasizing about zapping Mexicans while Mexican immigrants are sacrificing their lives in Afghanistan and Iraq in hopes of obtaining American citizenship. (You are aware of the American flag draped coffins being sent to Mexico for burial aren't you?)

Only a couple of coffins have "gone home" to Mexico and they belonged to LEGAL immigrants, not mojados.

37 posted on 09/13/2004 10:46:57 PM PDT by JackelopeBreeder (Proud to be a mean-spirited and divisive loco gringo armed vigilante terrorist cucaracha!)
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To: bayourod

And don't be forgetting the Mexican authorities decided to treat the honor guards like dog shit. The same way they supported us in Afghanistan and Iraq.


38 posted on 09/13/2004 11:00:51 PM PDT by JackelopeBreeder (Proud to be a mean-spirited and divisive loco gringo armed vigilante terrorist cucaracha!)
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To: JackelopeBreeder

"Only a couple of coffins have "gone home" to Mexico and they belonged to LEGAL immigrants, not mojados."

Furthermore, when the bodies arrived a disrespect was given to our US traditions by denying a full military funeral for those who died honorably fighting terrorism . These people’s government continue to despised our cause, by not being an ally with us in the war effort .

"Mexican soldiers interrupt funeral of U.S. Marine killed in Iraq"

http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/1165533/posts


39 posted on 09/13/2004 11:08:21 PM PDT by seastay
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To: seastay
Thanks for the link. I was too busy celebrating the demise of the AWB.

At least when I "crouch behind a cacti", I have something fun to fondle now.

40 posted on 09/13/2004 11:15:43 PM PDT by JackelopeBreeder (Proud to be a mean-spirited and divisive loco gringo armed vigilante terrorist cucaracha!)
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To: bayourod
I'm glad you responded to the most substantive part of my post, and that you managed to do so in such a nuanced and measured way. I'll try to respond in kind.

1. I know of no-one who believes that stopping illegal immigration would be easy. It is precisely the fact that is not easy -- logistically or politically -- that makes it something few politicians will have the courage to take on. As Bill O'Reilly said tonight, unfortunately nothing will change unless there is a terrorist attack traced to a border penetration occurs -- and this is just senseless. There are plenty of reasons to secure our borders that have nothing to do with terrorism, but for the life of me, I don't understand why the same people who are gung-ho about the war in Iraq have no interest in controlling the very borders of our country.

2. If the job market is so extremely tight, why are unemployment numbers even talked about? There are procedures for industries who can't fill jobs with Americans to help immigrants with the necessary skills come to America.

3. Who's talking about forcing businesses to pay exorbitant wages or keep unproductive employees? I pay my employees what I can afford to pay them, and what I need to pay them in order to keep the good ones. The more they are paid, the more I expect of them -- and I expect it to be reflected in the bottom line. I am under no obligation to keep unproductive employees. I'd be interested to hear how things are different for you as an employer with your employees. If they are indeed different, then push for changes in labor laws. If that fails to provide you with competent employees that you can afford, then follow procedures for legally bringing in workers who fit the bill. Hiring illegals is, well, not a legal way to solve one's employment problems, and I guess I'm old-fashioned enough to think that matters.

4. Who said anything about a good person or a bad person? I've never tried to read anyone's heart, although you apparently are adept at discerning the inner motives of those who oppose illegal immigration. What one can tell is whether laws are being obeyed or not. We are a nation of legal immigrants, and I don't see what it does for preserving a nation that respects the rule of law to change that.

5. You've seen these guys sitting behind cacti at night? Must be scary to watch. And finally, I know for a fact that illegal immigrants aren't serving in the US military. One doesn't need to be a citizen, but there is a proper procedure for donning the uniform, and it doesn't start with a coyote and a night-crossing, or a back-roads dash across the Canadian border.

41 posted on 09/14/2004 12:15:41 AM PDT by Agrarian (The second most important election of the year is the Senate race in South Dakota -- donate to Thune)
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To: bayourod; Willie Green; Wolfie; ex-snook; Jhoffa_; FITZ; arete; FreedomPoster; Red Jones; ...
Faris sounds like a textbook case of a xenophobe. Since he hates "rich" people who live in gated communities and enjoy golf, he probably is in a lower income class and fears competition from immigrant laborers willing to work longer and harder than him.

Why these immigrant laborers are willing to work harder, longer and for less money? Is their hard and low paid work benefiting golf-players from gated communities or lower income American poor?

42 posted on 09/14/2004 5:03:44 AM PDT by A. Pole (Madeleine Albright:"We are the indispensable nation. We stand tall. We see further into the future.")
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To: bayourod
The type who squat behind cacti at night fingering their guns and fantasizing about zapping Mexicans while Mexican immigrants are sacrificing their lives in Afghanistan and Iraq in hopes of obtaining American citizenship.

Wow! You watch too many Hollywood movies.

43 posted on 09/14/2004 5:07:25 AM PDT by A. Pole (Madeleine Albright:"We are the indispensable nation. We stand tall. We see further into the future.")
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To: bayourod

What's your name on DemonratUnderground so we can go there as see your real self?


44 posted on 09/14/2004 5:09:49 AM PDT by raybbr
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To: A. Pole

Criminal activity is A-OK with Asa if its benefitting his country club cronies.


45 posted on 09/14/2004 5:10:16 AM PDT by Wolfie
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To: A. Pole; bayourod
Since he hates "rich" people who live in gated communities and enjoy golf, he probably is in a lower income class and fears competition from

Yes -- nothing inconsistent in that --- while the well-to-do soccer moms from gated communities leave their poor low-wage illegal servants to clean her house and be the cheap live-in nanny for her kids while she can go off to play tennis all day, it's the lower income types who must pay the free education and health care for the servants of the would be elite. It's costing the working types too much because others are too good to make their own beds or wash their own dishes.

Things would change if the employers of these dirt-poor servants suddenly had to pay the cost of education and health care.

46 posted on 09/14/2004 5:31:07 AM PDT by FITZ
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To: bayourod

We are getting the scum of Mexico. They are not going to assimilate. They are just going to create barrios turn the SW US into a third world nation.

http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/1214562/posts

I bet there were Roman landlords and merchants who were in favor of letting the barbarians in, too.


47 posted on 09/14/2004 5:44:30 AM PDT by Little Ray (John Ffing sKerry: Just a gigolo!)
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To: A. Pole; JohnHuang2; keri; international american; Kay Soze; jpsb; hershey; TomInNJ; dagnabbit; ...
"Is their (illegal migrant workers) hard and low paid work benefiting golf-players from gated communities or lower income American poor?"

_______________________

Answer: Yes.

From the employer's financial perspective, the illegal migrant worker is the worker of choice - the hired hand you want when you can get away with it.

FORMULA: 3 illegal migrants = 1 US citizen in labor costs.
* No health insurance costs.
* No retirement plan costs.
* No FICA, state, or local taxes costs.
* Very little complaining about work conditions.
* Will work 12 hours with only a one hour break.
* Can be terminated on a moment's notice with no legal ramifications or lawsuits.
* Little to no training costs.
* Ultra-flexible - can work rigorous shifts/laid off/recalled/worked/laid off with very little complaining.
* Up to one half less expensive in hourly wages.
The list of benefits for hiring illegal migrant workers is much longer than this, these are just for starters.

48 posted on 09/14/2004 5:45:26 AM PDT by Happy2BMe (50 days until November 2nd)
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To: television is just wrong

Well WRITE the WH and your Congress girly-men. The Republicans go wishy washy and the Democrats will tell you that we are a land of immigrants (talk to an Indian).

I started writing snail mail letters in 1995 just before I left NY. At that time, the Dems didn't even write back!
Send an email, write whatever. Just don't sit there and bitch!


49 posted on 09/14/2004 6:07:30 AM PDT by Henchman (Demand an inquiry by the media into Kerry's dealing with the VC in PARIS!)
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To: bayourod
I don't support an open borders policy and we do not have an open borders policy now

You must not live in Texas, Arizona or California!

50 posted on 09/14/2004 6:30:27 AM PDT by shattered
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