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BUSH'S FLIGHT PHYSICAL

Posted on 09/16/2004 9:19:29 AM PDT by carrier-aviator

In U.S. military aviation, flight physicals are required annually, within 3 months preceding the last day of the airman's birth month. Bush's birthdate is 6 July. This means Bush's window to obtain his physical was from 1 May 1972 through 31 July 1972. So, why would LTCOL Killian order Bush to take his physical not later than 14 May 1972 (a Sunday!), when Bush was "legal" through 31 July?

Also, Commanders do not suspend aviators (i.e. withdraw flying privileges) for failing to take flight physicals. A suspension, or "downing," from flight status is an action ordered by a flight surgeon (a military physician specializing in flight physiology) for an airman who fails or who does not take a physical within the required timeframe.

On top of the supercripts, the proportional spacing, the inconsistent signatures, the retired status of Gen. Staudt, the bogus unit address (P.O. Box), and Bush's erroneous home address, the memos are just so full of odd terminology: they are written the way a civilian thinks the military talks.

I guess we all know by now that the memos are bogus. I just thought I'd try to enumerate just how comically fraudulent they really are.


TOPICS: Politics/Elections
KEYWORDS: tang
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1 posted on 09/16/2004 9:19:32 AM PDT by carrier-aviator
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To: carrier-aviator

I know very little about the military. But on a local talkshow they have a general as the host and he said that once Bush transfered to a NON FLIGHT position within the guard he no longer needed to take the physical and by policy a 'grounding' is put in the persons file upon the passing of the physical date.


2 posted on 09/16/2004 9:22:53 AM PDT by Phantom Lord (Advantages are taken, not handed out)
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To: carrier-aviator

THANKS!


3 posted on 09/16/2004 9:23:17 AM PDT by RAY (They that do right are all heroes!)
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To: carrier-aviator

THANKS!


4 posted on 09/16/2004 9:23:17 AM PDT by RAY (They that do right are all heroes!)
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To: Phantom Lord

Correction. The host is a Captain, not a general. Sorry.


5 posted on 09/16/2004 9:24:15 AM PDT by Phantom Lord (Advantages are taken, not handed out)
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To: RAY

The address is OK. It appears on other documents that have been verified as real. There are plenty of other things wrong with the documents, but the address is not one of them.


6 posted on 09/16/2004 9:26:03 AM PDT by RtWngr
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To: carrier-aviator

Nice catch!



Welcome to Free Republic.


7 posted on 09/16/2004 9:26:13 AM PDT by EggsAckley (............."but let them go naked for a while".......scary Terri Kerry............)
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To: carrier-aviator

Well the problem with your premise is that the docs are true. They are pure C=BS. The REAL problem is that the idiot that wrote them doesn't know military regs.


8 posted on 09/16/2004 9:26:36 AM PDT by marty60
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To: carrier-aviator

This post is representative of the segue that is beginning to take place on FR. The memos are known to be fraudulent by everyone but Rather and McCauliff. We now must focus on the content and discredit the "facts". Good post.


9 posted on 09/16/2004 9:26:52 AM PDT by Thickman (Regis to Kerry: "Is that your final answer?")
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To: carrier-aviator

Atta Boy! Good catch!


10 posted on 09/16/2004 9:27:50 AM PDT by SeeRushToldU_So (Shut up and sing. I don't care what you think.)
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To: carrier-aviator
I talked to a Marine Pilot that served in Vietnam. He tole me after his tour he was in the reserve he didn't take his psychical when he was subject to call up. If called up he would have been given a psychical and shipped out....
11 posted on 09/16/2004 9:28:56 AM PDT by Defendingliberty (www.456th.com)
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To: carrier-aviator

see the following:

ISSUES RELATED TO 60 MINUTES DOCUMENTS.


a. Font, type, typography, equipment, etc issues that can be processed from the pdfs alone.

1. Typewriter proportional spacing was not available in 1972 with the Times Roman font, the timeframe and font style of the CBS Memos. The IBM Executive had a pseudo proportional spacing but not the typeface used in the CBS Memos. (No confirmation that even this type of technology was available at TANG, see below for a discussion of the Selectric Composer which is a printshop device)

3. Superscripts not generally available. These are individual characters in smaller case that extend above the printed line in the CBS Memos. (The underlined "th" cited by CBS in the Chronological Listing of Service, which does NOT extend above the characters, is technically a single key element.) If anything, the superscript "th" in the CBS Memos versus the single key element even further indicates that the CBS Memos are a forgery.

5. 4's produced on a typewriter are open at the top. 4's on a word processor are closed. Compare the genuine Bush TANG documents, where the 4's are open at the top, to CBS 60Minutes' forgeries, where the 4's are closed at the top

6. Apostrophes in the documents are curled serifs. Typewriters used straight hash marks for both quotation marks and apostrophes.

9. Margins look like a computer's Word Processor unjustified default, not the way a person typing would have done it. Typewriters had fixed margins that “rang” and froze the carriage when typist either hit “mar rel” or manually returned carriage.

11. Words run over in a manner within CBS Memos that is consistent with a Word Processor.

12. Times Roman has been available since 1931, but only in linotype printshops and some Selectric typewriters...until released with Apple MacIntosh in 1984 and Windows 3.1 in 1991.

13. Signature looks faked, and it cut at the very end of the last letter rather than a fade when pressure would have been released.

16. Overlay of CBS Memos is an EXACT match for Microsoft Word Processor, versions disputed, but converted to pdf matches exactly.

19. Absence of hyphens to split words between lines, compared with 1970's typewritten documents.

22. It would have been nearly impossible to center a proportionately typed letterhead with proportional spacing without a computer (not impossible, but for Killian, who did not type, highly improbable). Further, doing this centering identically in memos two months apart, CBS May 04 and CBS August 01, absent a Word Processor is extremely unlikely.

26. Kerning was not available in any office typewriter. For kerning photographic analysis of memo see http://www.manchuriancandidate2004.com/kern.jpg

35. Why is the redacted address of Longmont #8 visible beneath the black mark? This would have been impossible after one copy, but it would be visible if the document was scanned.

51. The vertical spacing used in the memos, measured at 13 points, is not available in typewriters, and only became possible with the advent of computer driven type word processors and printers.

52. May 4, 1972 "order" memo and the May 19, 1972 "commitment" memo typeface doesn't match the official evaluation signed 26 May 1972. Or does the TANG have a new typewriter just for Col Killian's memorandum.

68. The only device that could have produced the superscripted “th” in that period and proportional type in that timeframe would have been a Selectric Composer. This is not a typewriter but is used for special publication composing. It cost some $4,000 then ($23,000 today) and was incredibly difficult to operate. The machine basically consisted of an IBM Selectric typewriter with a 3-1/2 ft. high upright case containing the magnetic tape reader reading long spools of magnetic tape in cartridges. It also needed a special IBM service person above and beyond repairing typewriters. It is not clear that the AirForce had even three units at that time and the TANG clearly did not. To suggest that Col Killian, who could barely type and even if he could, would have been able to operate one of these machines is absurd. The operating manual is here at http://www.ibmcomposer.org/docs.htm.




b. Issues that can only be processed by a better or original copy

17. Potential paper size issue: Air Force and Guard did not use 8 1/2 x 11 inch paper until the 1980s.

31. Is the document original or a copy of an original? Why all the background noise such as black marks and a series of repeated dots (as if run through a Xerox).(Rather explained his document was a photocopy-brings up additional questions of how redacted black address was visible from a several generation copy)




c. Issues that relate to custom and usage of text within the documents

8. Signature block. Typical authentic military signature block has name, then rank, then on the next line the person's position. The CBS Memos just have rank beneath the name.

10. CBS Memos have dates inconsistent with military style. Months should have three letters or in the form 110471.

15. No letterhead

28. Language not generally used by military personnel.

29. Not signed or initialed by author, typist, or clerk.

30. Not in any format that a military person would use, e.g. orders are not given by a Memo!

33. Why no two hole punches evident at the top of the page? …or even three or five on the side of the page?

37. In the CBS Memo 18 August, the acronym should be OER, not OETR.

46. The superscript "th" in the forged documents was raised half-way above the typed line (consistent with MS Word, but inconsistent with military typewriters which kept everything in-line to avoid writing outside the pre-printed boxes of standard forms).

41. The forged documents had no initials from a clerk.

42. CBS Memos on 4 May and 1 August have no distribution list as needed for orders.

43. Subject line in memos was usually, but not always, CAPITALIZED in the military

44. The forged documents used incorrect terminology ("physical examination" instead of "medical")

48. CBS May 4, 1972 "order" Memo and the CBS May 19, 1972 "commitment" memo typeface doesn't match the official evaluation signed 26 May 1972. Or does the TANG have a new typewriter just for Col Killian's memorandum.

54. USAF letterhead has been in required use since 1948. Instead the CBS Memos have typed letterhead. In general, typed letterhead is restricted to computer-generated orders, which were usually printed by teletype, chain printer or daisy-wheel printer, the latter looking like a typed letter. Manually typed correspondence is supposed to use official USAF letterhead. However, even special orders, which used a typed letterhead, were required to use ALL CAPS in the letterhead.

55. The typed Letterhead gives the address as "Houston, Texas". The standard formulation for addresses at USAF installations should require the address to read "Ellington AFB, Texas".

56. Killian's signature block should read: JERRY B. KILLIAN, Lt Col, TexANG Commander This is the required USAF formulation for a signature block.

57. Lt Col Killian's signature should be aligned to the left side of the page. Indented signature blocks are not a USAF standard.

58. The rank abbreviations are applied inconsistently and incorrectly. For example the use of periods in USAF rank abbreviations is incorrect. The modern formulation for rank abbreviations for the lieutenant grades in the USAF is 2LT and 1LT. In any event, they would not have included periods. Lt Col Killian's abbreviations are pretty much universally incorrect in the memos.

59. The unit name abbreviations use periods. This is incorrect. USAF unit abbreviations use only capital letters with no periods. For example, 111th Fighter Interceptor Squadron would be abbreviated as 111th FIS, not 111th F.I.S.

60. The Formulation used in the memos, i.e., "MEMORANDUM FOR 1st Lt. Bush..." is incorrect. A memo would be written on plain (non-letterhead) paper, with the top line reading "MEMORANDUM FOR RECORD". However, Lt Col Killian is known to have relied on hand written notes on scraps of paper and not gratuitous memos to files.

61. An order from a superior, directing a junior to perform a specific task would not be in the memorandum format as presented. Instead, it would use the USAF standard internal memo format with left hand justification as follows: FROM: Lt Col Killian, Jerry B. (space) SUBJECT: Annual Physical Examination (Flight) (space) TO: 1Lt Bush, George W. Documents that are titled as MEMORANDUM are used only for file purposes, and not for communications.

62. The memos use the formulation "...in accordance with (IAW)..." The abbreviation IAW is a universal abbreviation in the USAF, hence it is would not be spelled out, rather it is used for no other reason than to eliminate the word "in accordance with" from official communications. There are several such universal abbreviation, such as NLT for "no later than".

70. Physical is due the last day of the Birth Month which be 31July; not at the May 14th date ordered in the memo. Moreover the May 14 date is a Sunday.

72. Day in the date of the CBS Memo 4 May should be "4" and NOT "04"; in the CBS Memo 1 August it should have been "1" and NOT "01". This is a tell tale artifact of a Word Processor default setting which was not been changed.

75. According to Lt Col Campelli (USAF ret), the CBS Memos 4 May and 1 August both have a letterhead for the wrong organization. Correspondence and orders in those days would have been issued in the name of the parent organization -- the 147th Fighter Interceptor Group -- rather than by the squadron. Moreover, the letterhead in the CBS Memos is typed. The unit used PRINTED ANG letterhead. Moreover, where written orders were issued they were on standard USAF orders forms. They were NOT in the CBS Memo format. For further information see http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/1212092/posts

79. Consideration of all ordinal numbers occurring in the CBS Memos reveals two with miniature “th” superscripts as suffixes, four with spaces between the numerals and suffix, and five without a space, all of which include a digit of 1 (arguably a lower case L). Putting spaces between the numerals and the suffix is NOT how typists were or are trained. The only reason for spaces generally occurring after ordinals is to suppress MS Word's auto-superscript function. The most parsimonious explanation for the features shown by the ordinals in the CBS Memos is a forger intending suppress the auto-superscript function (which he didn't know how to turn off) but knew enough to use lower case L's in imitation of old typists or to insert spaces into other ordinals. He simply missed simply missed two instances and MS Word simply turned the “th” into superscripts.




d. Issues that relate to the context of the document (people retired, day of week, ANG policy, etc.)

20. 5000 Longmont #8 in Houston Tx. does not exist (actually does exist, but Lt Bush had already moved TWICE from this address at the time the memo was written). The address that the CBS Memo o4 May should have used is: 2910 Westheimer Rd. Apt 4. Lt Col Killian certainly would have known the correct address.

24. Subject matter is bizarre

25. Air Force did not use street addresses for their offices. For example, HQ AFLC/CC is for Wright-Patterson AFB, OH 45433.

27. In the CBS Memo of August 18, 1973 Jerry Killian purportedly writes: "Staudt has obviously pressured Hodges more about Bush. I'm having trouble running interference and doing my job." but General Staudt, who thought very highly of Lt Bush, retired on March 1, 1972. General Staudt was no longer in the food chain!

34. Regarding CBS 04 May Memo: LT Bush would have had automatic physical scheduled for his Birth Month which was July! He would have received a routine letter notifying him of the pending requirement, month or date by which the flight physical was to be completing, and advising him to call the flight surgeon's office to schedule the appointment. There would not have been an 'order' issued and certainly not by May 14th in advance of July, his Birth Month. Moreover, if any orders ever are issued in writing, they are NOT issued via a Memorandum!.

63. The title of one of the memos is CYA, a popular euphemism for covering one's...ahem...posterior. It is extremely doubtful that any serving officer would use such a colloquialism in any document that might come under official scrutiny.

66. Both Lt Col Killian's wife and son relate that Killian wasn't a typist. If he needed notes, he would write them down longhand, but in general, he wasn't paper-oriented, and certainly wasn't a typist.

76. According to Lt Col Campelli: “Jerry Killian never went near a typewriter. In the Air Force, in those days, notes -- if anyone kept them at all -- were handwritten.” All the CBS Memos supposedly by Lt Col Killian are typed. Also, bureaucrats -- not fighter jocks -- write "CYA" memos. For further information see http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/1212092/posts

74. The CBS Memo 1 August which Killian writes: "I recommended transfer of this officer…Officer has made no attempt to meet…or flight physical." This is inconsistent with the Lt Bush official performance evaluation dated 26 May 1972 in which Major Harris writes: "Lt Bush should be retained in his present assignment. He has gained valuable experience in the operations area and would be a welcome addition to any fighter squadron." Lt Col Killian signed off this evaluation on the same day.

77. According to Lt Col Campelli: “Orders -- like the purported CBS Memo 04 May order to take the flight physical wouldn't normally have been signed by Killian. They would have been signed by a senior sergeant ‘by order of’ Killian’.” For further information see http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/1212092/posts

78. The CBS Memo 19 May 1972 to the file that is supposedly written by Harris or Killian states: "Says he wants to transfer to Alabama to any unit he can get in to. Says he is working on another campaign for his dad". The CBS Memo is pejoratively inconsistent with the Lt Bush 26 May 1972 Performance Appraisal which states under OTHER COMMENTS: “Lt Bush is very active in civic affairs in the community and manifests a deep interest in the operation of our government. He has recently accepted a position as a campaign manager for a candidate for United States Senate. He is a good representative of the military and the Air National Guard in the business world. His abilities and anticipated future assignments make him a valuable asset. He is a member of the National Guard Association of the United States and Texas."




e. Other issues (veracity of experts, etc.)

2. CBS admits that it does *not* have the originals, but only original documents can be proven to be real; copies can *never* be authenticated positively...repeat: only original documents can be proven real. CBS never had the originals, so CBS knew that it was publishing something that couldn't be assured of authenticity. Moreover, CBS's own validator, Marcel Matley, wrote in the September, 2002 issue of the journal, "The Practical Litigator": "In fact, modern copiers and computer printers are so good that they permit easy fabrication of quality forgeries. From a copy, the document examiner cannot authenticate the unseen original ..."

4. Small "th" single element not generally available (not common, but available. Highly unlikely the machines were available at TANG) [REDUNDANT. SEE 3.]

7. The blurriness of the copy indicates it was recopied a number of times which is a common tactic of forgers. (copying of the CBS Memos was stated in the 60Minutes broadcast).

14. No apparent errors or whiteouts. (CBS used copies)

32. The Killian family rejected these documents as forgeries. Then where did the “personal files” come from if not the family?

39. CBS validator was only signature expert, not a typewriting expert. Also there now seem to be emerging issues on the signature itself. For signature authenticity doubts see http://www.washtimes.com/national/20040910-104821-5968r.htm and http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/1213174/posts

53. Retired Maj. General Hodges, Killian's supervisor at the TANG, told ABC News that he feels CBS misled him about the documents they uncovered. According to Hodges, CBS told him the documents were "handwritten" and after CBS read him excerpts he said, "well if he WROTE them that's what he felt." Hodges also said he did not see the documents in the 70's and he cannot authenticate the documents or the contents. His personal belief is that the documents have been "computer generated" and are a "fraud". http://abcnews.go.com/sections/politics/NotedNow/Noted_Now.html

64. The records purport to be from Lt Col Killian's "personal files". Yet they were not obtained from his family, but through some unknown 3rd party. It is an odd kind of "personal file" when the family of a deceased person is unaware of the file's existence and it is not in their possession.

65. Both Lt Col Killian's wife and son, as well as the EAFB personnel officer do not find the memos credible.

65. The CBS Memos are totally inconsistent with the glowing performance reviews for Mr. Bush.

71. CBS 60 Minutes' says validator Matley vouched for all four CBS Memos; Matley says he only vouched for one.

73. CBS 60 Minutes has not stated any provenance for the memos. This add further questions to the authenticity of the CBS Memos.




Elements that have been deleted from above list

18. Overlap analysis is an exact match [NOW COVERED IN 16.].

21. Box 34567 is suspicious, at best. This would not be used on correspondence, but rather forms. The current use of the po box 34567 is Ashland Chemical Company, A Division of Ashland Oil, Incorporated P. O. Box 34567 Houston (this has been confirmed by the Pentagon, per James Rosen on Fox News) [THE BOX NUMBER IS CONSISTENT WITH OTHER CONTEMPORANEOUS DOCUMENTS].

23. Bush's grade would be abbreviated "1Lt" not "1stLt" [IT APPEARS TANG NEEDED A STYLE GUIDE AS OTHER DOCUMENT ABBREVIATIONS ARE ALL OVER THE MAP, BUT NONE ARE SUPERSCRIPTED!]

36. Why were these exact same documents available for sale on the Internet y Marty Heldt, of leftist web site Tom Paine, as early as January 2004? Is this where CBS obtained their copies? [THIS NEEDS VERIFIED WITH A LINK (CACHED??)]

38. Last line of document 4 "Austin will not be pleased with this" is not in the same font and has been added! [UNCLEAR. DOES THE GROUP WANT THIS IN OR OUT???]

40. Lt Col Killian didn't type [DUPLICATED ELSEWHERE]

45. There was no "receipt confirmation box" (required for orders) [OTHERS HAVE SAID THAT A DISTRIBUTION LIST SUBSTITUTES]

47. Regarding superscript - typewriter example had it underlined in the keystroke but the forged document doesn't. [NOW COVERED IN 2.]

49. CBS admits that it does *not* have the originals, but only original document signatures can be proven to be real; copies can *never* be authenticated positively. [DUPLICATE OF 2.]

50. The manual cited in the forged document "AFM 35-13" doesn't exist. That line of text reads: "to conduct annual physical examination (flight)IAW AFM 35-13". "IAW" means "In Accordance With" and "AFM 35-13" would mean "Air Force Manual 35-13". There is no such Air Force Manual 35-13. [IT IS NOT CLEAR THAT THIS MANUAL EXISTS OR NOT AND WHAT IT IS FOR]

67. Col Walter "Buck" Staudt was honorably discharged on March 1, 1972. CBS Memo describing Staudt as interfering was dated Aug. 18, 1973. Col Staudt was no longer in the food chain. [DUPLICATE OF 27.]

69. The typed squadron letterhead is centered on the page, an extremely difficult operation to perform manually. [DUPLICATE OF 22.]




FreeRepublic.com, a member of the NEW Main Stream Media……………………………September 12, 2004 9 PM EDT


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12 posted on 09/16/2004 9:29:01 AM PDT by wattsup (wattsup)
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To: carrier-aviator

These memos were intended to be the precursor to further documents to come. The new documents were supposed going to indicate that Bush skipped his physical because he could not pass the drug test. They supposedly have a document that indicates that another pilot, named Bath, was grounded for cocaine use and that Bush was guilty by association. I am told that the Guard did not institute drug testing until '81. Can you confirm?


13 posted on 09/16/2004 9:32:15 AM PDT by Eva
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To: Thickman
This post is representative of the segue that is beginning to take place on FR. The memos are known to be fraudulent by everyone but Rather and McCauliff. We now must focus on the content and discredit the "facts". Good post.

Don't you believe Terry McAwful and Dan Blather don't know they are forgeries

14 posted on 09/16/2004 9:33:08 AM PDT by Kaslin (Stick a fork in Kerry, he is done)
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To: carrier-aviator

Excellent post. This is just more proof that the forger knew almost nothing about Air Force regulations, style, and procedure.


15 posted on 09/16/2004 9:33:31 AM PDT by vox humana
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To: carrier-aviator
FYI...the unit address (P.O. Box) is legit
16 posted on 09/16/2004 9:35:46 AM PDT by tophat9000 ("Blackrock Bob" (aka DAN RATHER)....is in full denial)
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To: Eva

Hadn't hear that about Bath.

where'd you see it?


17 posted on 09/16/2004 9:35:53 AM PDT by Wild_Bill_8881 (If ya can't dazzle 'em with brilliance, baffle 'em with BS)
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To: Eva
These memos were intended to be the precursor to further documents to come.

There's a busy thread around here about how CBS may have "real" documents. Perhaps in Killian's handwriting. The plan (you see) was to get Bush to categorically deny the charges (Dan Rather: "Answer the Questions!") and once Bush made the mistake of denying them, the handwritten documents would be produced, and Bush would be check-mated.

I think that thread is tin-foil hat stuff. What this thread says (about the timing of the physical) makes a lot of sense. The ENTIRE premise of the forged documents is a joke. There as no "real" documents that will come out and "prove" these assertions.

18 posted on 09/16/2004 9:39:22 AM PDT by ClearCase_guy (I have two words for John Kerry: "YYYEEEEAAARRGGGHHHH!!!!")
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To: Kaslin
Forgot to add the indicator.
19 posted on 09/16/2004 9:40:00 AM PDT by Thickman (Regis to Kerry: "Is that your final answer?")
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To: carrier-aviator
....the memos are just so full of odd terminology: they are written the way a civilian thinks the military talks.

Exactly. Having spent 8 years, active and reserve, E and O, field and HQ, the "civilian" tone to the memos was my tip off. In other words; "We", who have our names on a DD214, don't write like that.

20 posted on 09/16/2004 9:40:43 AM PDT by elbucko (A Feral Republican)
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To: carrier-aviator

ping for later


21 posted on 09/16/2004 9:41:24 AM PDT by spotbust1
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To: ClearCase_guy

The best comment I read on that thread was "should have taken the blue pill".


22 posted on 09/16/2004 9:41:57 AM PDT by Thickman (Regis to Kerry: "Is that your final answer?")
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To: elbucko

So what did you think of the secretarys statement on 60 minutes last night that it looked more like Army terminolgy?


23 posted on 09/16/2004 9:44:03 AM PDT by Wild_Bill_8881 (If ya can't dazzle 'em with brilliance, baffle 'em with BS)
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To: ClearCase_guy

OJ will find the real killers, before CBS finds the real memos.


24 posted on 09/16/2004 9:44:08 AM PDT by dfwgator (It's sad that the news media treats Michael Jackson better than our military.)
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To: Thickman

"We now must focus on the content and discredit the "facts"."

It is impossible to prove or disprove that bush received preferential treatment in the guard. Some of the principals are dead, some aren't talking, and some are giving different accounts. I think it is very possible he did, but I am not sure there is any reason he should have WANTED to go to vietnam. He didn't know he was running for president in 32 years, but he did know some of what was going on in nam at the time.


25 posted on 09/16/2004 9:51:39 AM PDT by WoofDog123
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To: carrier-aviator
The Air Force has a flight surgean ( pilot) per Wing as the Jocks Doctor---Saved a lot Pilot A$$ coming back from TDY (must have your wife come in and have her throat checked for for this bad cold)
26 posted on 09/16/2004 9:52:08 AM PDT by ralph rotten
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To: carrier-aviator
So, why would LTCOL Killian order Bush to take his physical not later than 14 May 1972 (a Sunday!),......?

This order, if factual, may not be an order TO Lt. Bush, but to a reserve medical unit that did flight physicals as part of their drills. The National Guard can be so disorganized in regards to coordinating activities between different units, that it's possible that the order is meant to compel a medical unit to perform the physical in question at its next drill or AT (annual Training).

27 posted on 09/16/2004 9:54:01 AM PDT by elbucko (A Feral Republican)
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To: carrier-aviator

The angle the Dems are taking is that Bush avoided the physical so he would not have to take a drug test.

Who "schedules" drug tests? What would the point be?


28 posted on 09/16/2004 9:57:12 AM PDT by IamConservative (A man who stands for nothing will fall for anything.)
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To: Wild_Bill_8881

The first place that I read about the whole plan was on DU. They have been a very good source of Demcorrupt plans.
But then Bath's name turned up on one of the memos that USA Today had on their web site, that CBS didn't use. The plan has been confirmed by several sources. All CBS wants is for Bush to admit that he skipped the physical, and was grounded. They have no documentation of this.


29 posted on 09/16/2004 9:57:12 AM PDT by Eva
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To: wattsup
17. Potential paper size issue: Air Force and Guard did not use 8 1/2 x 11 inch paper until the 1980s.

This is true. I often "purchased" our full time Nike Herc. units supplies at the post quartermaster. Paper was among these supplies. Having worked in business before I was drafted in 1967, I noted the "short" size of Army and Guard paper compared to paper used in the civilian world. Trivial then, maybe not, now.

30 posted on 09/16/2004 10:01:50 AM PDT by elbucko (A Feral Republican)
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To: ClearCase_guy
There's a busy thread around here about how CBS may have "real" documents. Perhaps in Killian's handwriting. The plan (you see) was to get Bush to categorically deny the charges (Dan Rather: "Answer the Questions!") and once Bush made the mistake of denying them, the handwritten documents would be produced, and Bush would be check-mated.

Liberals don't understand Bush. He's an HONEST man. If these issues were true, Bush would not deny them. He might not bring up the subject at all, but he would never lie about it.

The left lies constantly, and they think everybody else does to.

They just don't understand.

31 posted on 09/16/2004 10:03:16 AM PDT by narby (Dan interviewed the "Bush was Selected Lady" (BwS Lady))
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To: Eva
Well no doubt the DUmmies would be running their mouths about it, they're idiots

Did they mention any of these "other Sources" or are they going to make up some more fake documents

and what does skipping a flight physical have to do with taking a drug test?
32 posted on 09/16/2004 10:03:25 AM PDT by Wild_Bill_8881 (If ya can't dazzle 'em with brilliance, baffle 'em with BS)
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To: Eva

See page ten no.7 (under Bush's name) I seen this on a Kerry website (cant't find the link) the blacked out name is Bath http://www.usatoday.com/news/bushdocs/11-4_2004_Personnel_File.pdf


33 posted on 09/16/2004 10:07:46 AM PDT by tophat9000 ("Blackrock Bob" (aka DAN RATHER)....is in full denial)
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To: Wild_Bill_8881

I got the impression that all the documents were a package. The first release was meant to set up Bush to admist that he had skipped the physical and the second bunch were going to tie him to this other pilot. I didn't get the impression that the they had anything better than the first, just more of the same. The Kitty Kelly book was supposed to prove the Bush was guilty of cocaine use. (They have never been able to get anyone to say that they saw him using cocaine).


34 posted on 09/16/2004 10:08:54 AM PDT by Eva
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To: Eva
I am told that the Guard did not institute drug testing until '81. Can you confirm?

When I left a "Full Time" Air Defense National Guard unit in 1975, there was no drug testing. Considering that we had nuclear weapons and this was in California, one would think that drug testing would be routine. The only time I went in a cup, was if I was too far from the latrine and I had a cup.

35 posted on 09/16/2004 10:09:23 AM PDT by elbucko (A Feral Republican)
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To: carrier-aviator

"Also, Commanders do not suspend aviators (i.e. withdraw flying privileges) for failing to take flight physicals. A suspension, or "downing," from flight status is an action ordered by a flight surgeon (a military physician specializing in flight physiology) for an airman who fails or who does not take a physical within the required timeframe."

Actually, that's incorrect. Only the aviator's commander has the authority to "ground" a pilot, for failure to take a flight physical or any other reason. The flight surgeon only makes recommendations to the commander (which the commander almost always follows, though I once did have a commander not ground a pilot despite my recommendation to do so. The commander, in that case, is taking a huge risk).


36 posted on 09/16/2004 10:09:39 AM PDT by armydoc
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To: armydoc

Armydoc, I stand corrected. Thanks.


37 posted on 09/16/2004 10:11:14 AM PDT by carrier-aviator
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To: elbucko

Eva,

None of my units ever had drug testing til 1981 either. I made a statment to this effect the other day, though, and soem guy jumped on me and said his unit was doing them in 1971.


38 posted on 09/16/2004 10:12:47 AM PDT by carrier-aviator
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To: carrier-aviator

Some other questions:

Would they care if he was downed or not when he had transfered to the Alabama ANG at a desk job?

Would the Alabama ANG even had him doing anything other than showing up and checking a box once a month?

Why would the Texas ANG care since he had already transfered?


39 posted on 09/16/2004 10:13:46 AM PDT by Dead Dog
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To: carrier-aviator

Good points all! I was an officer in the Navy in the late 60's and don't remember ever seeing letters, memoranda, or orders where the author used anything but a fully abbreviated rank with his name. I frequently flew out of Air Force bases and believe that service always used the same convention when indicating rank in documents.


40 posted on 09/16/2004 10:14:48 AM PDT by charleywhiskey
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To: ClearCase_guy
I think that thread is tin-foil hat stuff.

You are exactly right. CBS produces fake frauds to accuse the president of the United States of lying and then, supposing Bush would deny it, then produces the REAL documents?

Imagine this: a giant gasp across this country when the general population realized that a NEWS ORGANIZATION was about the business of removing a sitting POTUS from office.

41 posted on 09/16/2004 10:15:19 AM PDT by Howlin (What's the Font Spacing, Kenneth?)
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To: WoofDog123

From the Washington Post (let them call the WP liars!)

Bush learned that there were pilot openings in the Texas Air National Guard during Christmas vacation of his senior year at Yale, when he called Staudt, the commander of the 147th Fighter Group, and, he said, "found out what it took to apply."
"He recalls hearing from friends while he was home over the Christmas break that the Guard was looking for pilots and that Colonel Staudt was the person to contact," said his communications director, Karen Hughes. She said Bush did not recall who those friends were.

Retired Col. Rufus G. Martin, then personnel officer in charge of the 147th Fighter Group, said the unit was short of its authorized strength, but still had a long waiting list, because of the difficulty getting slots in basic training for recruits at Lackland Air Force Base in San Antonio. Martin said four openings for pilots were available in the 147th in 1968, and that Bush got the last one.


http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-srv/politics/campaigns/wh2000/stories/bush072899.htm


42 posted on 09/16/2004 10:17:04 AM PDT by Howlin (What's the Font Spacing, Kenneth?)
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To: elbucko

Well, I guess someone should tell Dan Rather that his whole scheme is falling apart because it won't work if the Guard didn't even do drug testing in '73.


43 posted on 09/16/2004 10:17:20 AM PDT by Eva
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Comment #44 Removed by Moderator

To: Dead Dog

I think that the reasons that you have given are the reasons that there is no record of Bush taking a flight physical and the reason the Democrats had to create them out of whole cloth. The purpose behind the fraud is to get Bush to admit that he did skip the physical, so that they can move on to the "real reason" that he skipped it.


45 posted on 09/16/2004 10:22:15 AM PDT by Eva
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To: RtWngr

I've read on other threads that a PO box would not have been used, rather a physical address.


46 posted on 09/16/2004 10:23:10 AM PDT by waverna (I shall do neither. I have killed my captain...and my friend.)
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To: Wild_Bill_8881
So what did you think of the secretarys statement on 60 minutes last night that it looked more like Army terminology?

No. Actually, "Army" terminology and Air Force are very much alike ( especially in the Guard) and is just plain military dialect. In military documents one sees a lot of acronyms and terms that would not be known to civilians (unless they were military civilian employees, like the secretary).

Example: "Clown, Bozo T., Sgt E-5, ordered to ACDUTRA, 01 July, 1975".

"ACDUTRA" is NG/Army short lingo for "Active Duty Training".

47 posted on 09/16/2004 10:23:28 AM PDT by elbucko (A Feral Republican)
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To: tophat9000

I wonder what happened to this Bath guy. He must be dead, or someone would find him.


48 posted on 09/16/2004 10:23:29 AM PDT by Eva
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To: Eva
Funny they want to link Bush & Bath... if the was really "common" connection for the suspension you would expect to see it happen at the same time not one month apart
49 posted on 09/16/2004 10:28:53 AM PDT by tophat9000 ("Blackrock Bob" (aka DAN RATHER)....is in full denial)
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To: Eva
Thanks, so they say where this whole package came from?

if it's no better then the first, document wise, CBS is going to be hard pressed to try to ram it out to the public again....I mean they are taking quite a beating right now with the last batch of fakes

and are they saying anything about Burkett being set up to be the fall guy for all this?
50 posted on 09/16/2004 10:30:48 AM PDT by Wild_Bill_8881 (If ya can't dazzle 'em with brilliance, baffle 'em with BS)
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