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HANNITY RADIO - NAVY DISPUTES KERRY HAS RELEASED RECORDS AND KERRY HAS NOT SIGNED FORM 180
Hannity Radio Show ^ | Sep 16/04 | hawkaw

Posted on 09/16/2004 1:25:43 PM PDT by hawkaw

Just breaking on hannity


TOPICS: Extended News; Politics/Elections
KEYWORDS: form180; hannity; kerrylies; militaryrecord; usn; wwwhannitycom
Navigation: use the links below to view more comments.
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1 posted on 09/16/2004 1:25:44 PM PDT by hawkaw
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To: hawkaw

He has not followed up on that pre-commercial shocking sentence.


2 posted on 09/16/2004 1:26:38 PM PDT by Yaelle
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To: Yaelle

Correct he has gone back to Ollie


3 posted on 09/16/2004 1:27:25 PM PDT by hawkaw
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To: hawkaw

http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/1218118/posts


4 posted on 09/16/2004 1:27:34 PM PDT by mcg1969
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To: hawkaw

Hmmm... Does this pretty much mean that the stuff on his web site is errr ummm forged? Or what?


5 posted on 09/16/2004 1:27:35 PM PDT by Chad Fairbanks (John Kerry is still facing pajama-clad warriors, and receiving self-inflicted wounds...)
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To: hawkaw

Ollie North is ripping apart Kerry...


6 posted on 09/16/2004 1:27:49 PM PDT by demlosers (The FreeRepublic Pajama Press!)
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To: hawkaw

AND WHY ISN'T DAN RATHER PURSUING THIS AS VIGOROUSLY AS THE BUSH FORGERIES?????????


7 posted on 09/16/2004 1:30:42 PM PDT by Mr. K
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To: hawkaw

Article at:

http://www.townhall.com/news/politics/200409/SPE20040916a.shtml


8 posted on 09/16/2004 1:31:51 PM PDT by Republican Red (We're going to win one for the gipper...they're going to lose one for the flipper)
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To: hawkaw
Kerry has not signed a SF-180

Only people who are non-functioning illiterates and of course LEFTISTS did NOT know this for at least 18 months.

9 posted on 09/16/2004 1:31:56 PM PDT by PISANO (NEVER FORGET 911 !!!!)
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To: Chad Fairbanks
Hmmm... Does this pretty much mean that the stuff on his web site is errr ummm forged? Or what?

It doesn't mean they're forged, it just means we can't authenticate them from the original documents.

10 posted on 09/16/2004 1:35:30 PM PDT by Vroomfondel
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To: Vroomfondel

True. So, the bottom line is that the documents posted on his site are questionable.


11 posted on 09/16/2004 1:36:18 PM PDT by Chad Fairbanks (John Kerry is still facing pajama-clad warriors, and receiving self-inflicted wounds...)
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To: hawkaw

BTTT!


12 posted on 09/16/2004 1:39:26 PM PDT by wagglebee (Benedict Arnold was for American independence before he was against it.)
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To: Mr. K
AND WHY ISN'T DAN RATHER PURSUING THIS AS VIGOROUSLY AS THE BUSH FORGERIES?????????

BECAUSE HE WANTS KERRY TO WIN!!! (Duh)

;)

13 posted on 09/16/2004 1:39:37 PM PDT by outlawcam (No time to waste. Now get moving.)
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To: Chad Fairbanks

CBS,RATHER and kerry are fading fast.


14 posted on 09/16/2004 1:41:06 PM PDT by jocko12
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To: Vroomfondel

The stuff on the web is only the benevolent stuff, that helps him, not hurts him. Not even Kerry would be dumb enough to put fake stuff up, surely.


15 posted on 09/16/2004 1:41:26 PM PDT by expatpat
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To: 68-69TonkinGulfYachtClub; Radix; Kathy in Alaska; MoJo2001; LaDivaLoca; Fawnn; Bethbg79; ...

PING! for a skerry 180


16 posted on 09/16/2004 1:41:46 PM PDT by Arrowhead1952 (Charter member of the VRWC - and proud of it. - - - Hear BS on See BS.)
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To: expatpat
Not even Kerry would be dumb enough to put fake stuff up, surely.

Oh, I don't know - I think he is.

...and don't call me Shirley!

17 posted on 09/16/2004 1:46:42 PM PDT by Izzy Dunne (Hello, I'm a TAGLINE virus. Please help me spread by copying me into YOUR tag line.)
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To: hawkaw

Dadgummit, WBAP in Dallas play Hannity on a 1-hour delay!

OTOH, I guess that means I get to listen to this in detail; it has not yet been played at 3:50 CDST

www.wbap.com


18 posted on 09/16/2004 1:51:24 PM PDT by Redbob
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To: Arrowhead1952
bump!

19 posted on 09/16/2004 1:51:50 PM PDT by MeekOneGOP (There is only one GOOD 'RAT: one that has been voted OUT of POWER !! Straight ticket GOP!)
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To: Arrowhead1952
Just like they said the other day:

Hey, Hey
Ho,Ho
Kerry sign that 1-8-0

20 posted on 09/16/2004 1:55:27 PM PDT by Diva Betsy Ross (It's not Bush's fault... it's the media's fault!)
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To: Arrowhead1952

bump


21 posted on 09/16/2004 1:57:32 PM PDT by Soaring Feather (Poetry is my forte. ~Keep your eye on this tag line -more clues forthcoming.~)
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To: hawkaw

Somebody need to show up at the next Kerry rally with the 180 rally a pen and a properly addressed envelope to walk up in front of cameras and ask kerry to sign the release.


22 posted on 09/16/2004 1:58:59 PM PDT by Walkingfeather (q)
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To: hawkaw

http://www.judicialwatch.org/archive/2004/navykerryresponse.pdf for what the Navy did release.


23 posted on 09/16/2004 2:19:30 PM PDT by markomalley
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To: markomalley

I like how Hannity just challeneged Moore to a debate in Utah


24 posted on 09/16/2004 2:20:06 PM PDT by Jeff Gordon Fan
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To: hawkaw

And yet we have this:

A federal judge has ordered the Pentagon (news - web sites) to find and make public by next week any unreleased files about President Bush (news - web sites)'s Vietnam-era Air National Guard service to resolve a Freedom of Information Act lawsuit filed by The Associated Press.


25 posted on 09/16/2004 2:22:44 PM PDT by Peach (The Clinton's pardoned more terrorists than they ever captured or killed.)
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To: hawkaw
Sign the petition.

John Kerry, sign the Standard Form 180 and release ALL of your military service and medical records.

http://www.SignForm180.com
26 posted on 09/16/2004 2:38:10 PM PDT by Beckwith (John Kerry, sign the Form 180 petition at http://www.SignForm180.com)
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To: Diva Betsy Ross
Hey, Hey
Ho,Ho
Kerry sign that 1-8-0

Bump!

27 posted on 09/16/2004 2:39:10 PM PDT by talleyman (Dan Rather is the love child of Josef Stalin & Matta Hari and James Carville is a space alien - E.T.)
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To: hawkaw
Oh goody!

NOW, does someone have the BRASS BALLS to submit a F.O.I. lawsuit to the SAME Judge as Bush and demand ALL kerry's Viet Nam records?

ANYONE with media or legal CLOUT and publicize it?
28 posted on 09/16/2004 2:43:11 PM PDT by nmh (Intelligent people recognize Intelligent Design (God).)
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To: Walkingfeather
Somebody need to show up at the next Kerry rally with the 180 rally a pen and a properly addressed envelope to walk up in front of cameras and ask kerry to sign the release.

Or, perhaps, protesters carrying signs that are blown up copies of form 180?

29 posted on 09/16/2004 2:43:54 PM PDT by Vroomfondel
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To: nmh

Can anyone state definitively whether or not Bush has signed this release form 180?

I cannot find any record of the President doing this (with google search.)

All I can find is this snippet from McClellan:

"At the White House, press secretary Scott McClellan said he couldn't say specifically whether Mr. Bush signed Standard Form 180, but the president did request and release his own military records in February.
"I don't believe he signed any form, but he did authorize making his military records available publicly," Mr. McClellan said. "We have released all the records, and reporters were allowed to look at his medical records as well."


It seems to me that if Bush signed a form 180, it would really increase the pressure on Kerry to do so...

What bad information is confirmed in the kerry records anyway?

--and is the release form 180 the same for ANG as it is for active duty?
I read somewhere that people accusing Bush of witholding his dd-214 were wrong because in the Guard the final discharge paper has a different form number.

Is it the same with the form 180 for military records?


30 posted on 09/16/2004 2:49:17 PM PDT by steveeboy
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FYI

It's on DRUDGE linking to http://www.cnsnews.com//ViewSpecialReports.asp?Page=\SpecialReports\archive\200409\SPE20040916a.html.

31 posted on 09/16/2004 2:54:52 PM PDT by Boomer Geezer (God Bless ALL of our military and Vets -- past and present!)
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To: Vroomfondel

or better yet.... some one types up a form on microsoft word and writes kerrys signature on it, making an obvious forgery. Blow it up poster size and say... Is this your signature? Aw doesnt matter if it isn't the content is true right Mr. Kerry?


32 posted on 09/16/2004 3:00:35 PM PDT by Walkingfeather (q)
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To: markomalley

There is some new stuff in here. Kerry's actual Silver Star and Bronze Star citations, which we now know were signed on June 4, 1985 (vice the Kerry claim of 1986). Also, Kerry had all of his Purple Heart citations reissued as well on the same date. This is pretty big news. It confirms my assumption that Kerry had all of his medals replaced as well.


33 posted on 09/16/2004 3:12:18 PM PDT by kabar
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To: Walkingfeather

and as long as we are discussing these additional forms,according to Corsi and judicial watch, kerry has not released his dd-256n

what is a dd-256n discharge certificate?

I thought the official discharge form was the dd-214?

I was air force, and I got my dd-214 when I separated, then when my inactive reserve time was up I got the printed certificate you hang on the wall.

I think this nicer certificate was the dd-265af

Is the dd-256n some more "paperwork" specific to teh navy?
or is this the same "diploma" they give you that says you got an honorable discharge?

WHat is the significance of the dd-256n over the dd-214?

I don't think the certificate has any relevant info on it, mine is just a nice document to hang on the wall that has "honorable discharge" the dates of my service, and some signatures from SECAF and a general...



34 posted on 09/16/2004 3:15:29 PM PDT by steveeboy
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To: hawkaw
My Favorite post for dims and trolls
who slither in here each day.
And the Lame Stream media
who find the real news on Free Republic,
then rewrite and spin the truth.


JOHN KERRY
CLICK HERE TO SIGN FORM 180

WHAT ARE YOU HIDING?
WHAT IS YOUR SECRET?
WHAT DON'T YOU WANT
AMERICA AND THE PRESS TO KNOW?


John F. Kerry
Timeline of a traitor.
Click Here


http://www.archive-news.net/Kerry/JK_timeline.html

35 posted on 09/16/2004 3:31:54 PM PDT by 68-69TonkinGulfYachtClub (MAKE SURE YOU ARE CURRENTLY REGISTERED AND VOTE Nov 2nd!)
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To: 68-69TonkinGulfYachtClub

anyone know about this form 180 and if Bush has signed it?

I still haven't got a response.

seems to me that the President shoudl sign one--if he hasn't already--and then challenge Kerry to do the same.

Maybe this would be a good tactic at the debate?

he couldl hold it up and sign it and then ask kerry if he would care to sign the "extra" he just so happens to have with him.

that kind of move would make kerry freak out I bet.


36 posted on 09/16/2004 5:10:49 PM PDT by steveeboy
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To: Chad Fairbanks

We need to do Word document comparisons to see if the Kerry web documents are forgeries!


37 posted on 09/16/2004 5:37:18 PM PDT by mdmathis6 (The Democrats must be defeated in 2004)
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To: steveeboy

I read it somewhere that BUSH DID sign the 180. Couldn't tell you where though.


38 posted on 09/16/2004 6:41:49 PM PDT by nmh (Intelligent people recognize Intelligent Design (God).)
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To: kabar

Look...here's the situation...had he just needed to get copies for approved medals, he could have gotten copies from his archived personnel record. No new signatures. Just a duplicate of the original (well, maybe the certificate...MAYBE, but certainly not the citation). The only possible explanation I can see is that the medals were not approved by the appropriate approval authority (i.e., SECNAV for the Silver Star and SECNAV or CNO for the Bronze Star). In fact, Judicial Watch has filed a supplemental investigation request because of this irregularity: http://www.judicialwatch.org/archive/2004/secnavkerryltr.pdf

Wouldn't it be a hoot if Kerry hadn't officially been awarded those medals listed on his DD 214 when he threw them away?


39 posted on 09/16/2004 9:12:01 PM PDT by markomalley
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To: hawkaw

I do not believe W had signed a 180 either. Has anyone seen any proof of that? I have looked around the internet, but have come up empty.


40 posted on 09/16/2004 9:13:54 PM PDT by DennisR
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To: markomalley

Kerry was awarded the medals. The released records prove it. The Silver Star was approved by Hyland, CINCPAC. I am positive Zumwalt, COMNAVSFOR Vietnam was the final approving authority for the Bronze Star. I believe he got replacement medals and administrative procedures required that the Secretary of the Navy sign off on them.


41 posted on 09/16/2004 9:23:45 PM PDT by kabar
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To: kabar
You said: "The Silver Star was approved by Hyland, CINCPAC. I am positive Zumwalt, COMNAVSFOR Vietnam was the final approving authority for the Bronze Star. I believe he got replacement medals and administrative procedures required that the Secretary of the Navy sign off on them."
SECNAVINST 1650.1G Paragraph 113:
113. AUTHORITY TO APPROVE AWARDS
1. The Medal of Honor is approved and awarded by the President in the name of Congress.
2. The Defense Distinguished Service Medal and Defense Superior Service Medal are approved and awarded by SECDEF in the name of the President.
3. The Navy Cross, Distinguished Service Medal, and Silver Star Medal are approved and awarded by SECNAV in the name of the President.
4. The Legion of Merit, Distinguished Flying Cross, Navy and Marine Corps Medal, Bronze Star Medal, Purple Heart, and Air Medal (Strike/Flight) are awarded by SECNAV and Chief of Naval Operations (CNO) or Commandant of the Marine Corps (CMC) under delegated authority from SECNAV in the name of the President.
Navy and Marine Corps Awards Manual, Chapter 1, paragraph 113
Also, Appendix B of the same publication states that authority to award the Silver Star is "retained by the Secretary of the Navy."
So, this provides a reasoonable explanation for why Lehman would have signed the SS and BS citations. SECNAV at the time (Chaffee as I recall) did not sign, or approve them (or else that citation would have been in his personnel jacket and would have been released).
I do not have an alternate explanation as to why the citations would have been signed in 1985. The certificates, sure. But the citations?
42 posted on 09/17/2004 2:03:35 AM PDT by markomalley
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To: expatpat
"...Not even Kerry would be dumb enough to put fake stuff up, surely."

I wouldn't be too sure of that!

And don't call me Shirley!

43 posted on 09/17/2004 2:18:13 AM PDT by fuzzy122 (GBGB [God Bless George Bush] and the Armed Forces ... Arnold and Zell too!)
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To: fuzzy122

he tossed his medals/ribbons whatever away on the mall.

he didn't throw the paperwork.

He could have gone to any aafes or NEX clothing store and BOUGHT new medals/ribbons.

Why woud he have to do new paperwork????


44 posted on 09/17/2004 4:15:56 AM PDT by steveeboy
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To: markomalley
This power or authority can be delegated. During the Vietnam War with over 500,000 men in-country, I am assuming this power was delegated to Hyland (Silver Star), which is why he signed the citation. Similarly, Zumwalt had the authority to approve the Bronze Star, which is why he signed the Bronze Star citation. The Lehman citations were for replacements. We know that Kerry received both awards because we have photographic evidence. He also received his Purple Hearts.

I presume you are quoting the current SECNAVINST 1650.1G Paragraph 113. What you would need to find is the delegation of approval authority for awards at the time, not today.

Here is my take on what happened:

Did he or didn't he? After reviewing Kerry's service records, as released by him, I find it hard to believe the media have not picked up on the John Lehman connection. It should set off all kinds of alarm bells, especially considering the recent flap over whether he threw his medals away or not.

A very curious question arises over Kerry's multiple Silver (3) and Bronze (2) star citations. Two of the five were signed by John Lehman who was Secretary of the Navy in the Reagan Administration 5 Feb 1981 - 10 Apr 1987. There are three Silver Star citations supplied by Kerry. One was signed by ADM Zumwalt, one by ADM Hyland, and one by Secretary Lehman. The Bronze Star citations were signed by Zumwalt and Lehman. Specifically,

Zumwalt: ADM Zumwalt served as Commander, US Naval Forces Vietnam from Sep 1968-May 1970. The Silver Star citation is more than likely the original citation taken from the award submission. Normally, as part of the nomination form, the nominator must provide a synopsis of the award (citation) that can fit on a single page suitable for framing with the certificate. Zumwalt's citation covered two pages. I suspect that Zumwalt forwarded the award to CINCPAC, ADM Hyland, for the final signature, including the citation. It is worth noting that the requirement to go to CINCPAC applied only to the Silver Star, hence only the Zumwalt and Lehman citations for the Bronze Star, i.e., Zumwalt as the final approving authority and Lehman for the replacement/reissue.

Hyland: CINCPAC probably edited the Zumwalt Silver Star citation to make it fit on to one page and to clean it up a bit to fit the existing format. I do find it odd that Zumwalt's citation is on letterhead paper. Usually the suggested citation language is submitted on the award recommendation form itself. ADM Hyland was CINCPAC 30 Nov 1967 - 05 Dec 1970

Lehman: Except for the last sentence, the Silver Star citation is the same as Hyland's. What makes this curious is that Secretary Lehman signed the citation in June 1985. Kerry served in Vietnam from November 1968 to April 1969. I doubt, in any event, that the final approval authority for Silver Stars had to go to SECNAV for approval. We also have photographic evidence that Kerry had the Silver Star medal pinned on in 1969. Kerry also acknowledges that he received them. My take is that Kerry requested replacement medals and due to the fact that Kerry was no longer an active duty service member, administrative requirements mandated that SECNAV's office had to approve the issue of the replacements once it was verified from official records that Kerry had actually earned them. It is odd that they could not have just given Kerry copies of the original citations and I am at a loss for the reason to change the last sentence of the Silver Star citation, even if it is boilerplate language. Why not go with the original like what was done for the Bronze Star?

The bottom line is that Kerry probably did throw away his medals and then requested replacements in the 1980s. Kerry needs to release all of his military records including the nomination forms, which will give us the chronology and the approval chain of command. Kerry's reaction on Good Morning America fits his MO. He wants it both ways. When he discovered that throwing away your medals was politically a negative, he came up with the story about his ribbons and someone else's medals. Kerry realized that he couldn't walk away from the story entirely, especially since he has the medals displayed prominently in his office. However, the fly in the ointment is that we now have the citations, released by him, signed by Lehman. If he indeed requested replacement medals, he has a real problem, i.e., he was telling the truth initially, lied in the 80s, and is lying now.

Kerry's campaign spokesman has stated recently that Kerry requested replacement citations (Silver and Bronze Stars) in 1986 (actually it was 1985) because Kerry lost the originals. I find that hard to believe given Kerry's penchant for keeping copies of everything he has ever written or received. It also begs the question as to why Lehman needed to sign replacement citations when the Navy could have made duplicates of the ones in Kerry's official file

Silver Star

According to John O'Neill, Unfit for Command (pp.80-81), Kerry was awarded the medal "two days after the incident with no review." Thus, Kerry received the medal on March 2, 1969. This is corroborated by Mrs. Droz whose husband was one of the three PCF OIC's that day along with Kerry and Rood. She cites a March 6 letter from her husband, who wrote. " I had quite a morning... Admiral [Elmo] Zumwalt, Commander Naval Forces Vietnam, flew to An Thoi from Saigon ... for a special awards presentation. To make a somewhat long story short, PCF's 23, 94 and 43 conducted an operation February 28th which we pulled off rather spectacularly. Anyway, for my part, I was awarded the Bronze Star Medal with Combat 'V.' I don't mean to blow my own horn, but I really am pleased with the award, and it is a rather significant medal. I'll bring the citation with me to Hawaii." It is possible that the Hyland citation was not available at the presentation of the medal on March 2, 1969, which may explain why Zumwalt's citation is on letterhead paper.

I am fairly certain that Zumwalt could not be the final approving authority for the Silver Star, hence the Hyland citation. Hyland's citation was the only official citation. As I explained, the nominator (Zumwalt) can suggest the language for the citation to the final approving authority (Hyland). There is a block on the form to do that. I suspect that Hyland's office edited the language to make it fit on one page and to comply with existing guidelines. As I indicated, the medal was awarded in a hurry without the usual vetting process. It could be that Zumwalt's citation came from the after action report written by Kerry and was created for the presentation ceremony on March 2.

Technically, there is only one official citation for the Silver Star, the one signed by ADM Hyland the final approving authority. I suspect the Zumwalt citation on letterhead paper was put together quickly to make a hurried presentation of the medal. The Hyland citation came later, but not that much later. The Silver Star citation signed by Lehman is the same as the Hyland citation except for the last sentence, which is essentially boilerplate language. I agree there are some serious questions as to why Kerry was just not issued a certified copy of the Hyland citation. The Bronze Star citation signed by Lehman is exactly the same as the Zumwalt citation. To me, the most important question is whether replacement medals were issued. If so, Kerry would be destroyed as a Presidential candidate. Several months ago on Good Morning America, he stated categorically that he did not throw his medals away--just ribbons. He allowed that his statement in 1971 that he did throw away his medals might be misconstrued since "medals and ribbons are interchangeable."

45 posted on 09/17/2004 4:24:19 AM PDT by kabar
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To: kabar

lots of detail there,

but it still begs the question,

why does he ask for more paperwork?

If he just wanted to replace medals/ribbons thrown over the fence at the protest, why not just go to any aafes or NEX clothing store and BUY new medals/ribbons?

the actual physical replacement of the medals/ribbons would be an easy thing, you don't need to go to the pentagon for that.

and copies of the original citations would be available in his service record as you note.

why does he even need to get new citations then?

and, no one has provided informaiton on whether or not Bush has signed the form 180.

the libs at work keep saying he has not, and I cannot find any information that syas he has--except people that say "I think I read that somewhere."
as I said above, all I can find on the 'net from an unbiased source (washington times) is this from august 18, 2004:

"At the White House, press secretary Scott McClellan said he couldn't say specifically whether Mr. Bush signed Standard Form 180, but the president did request and release his own military records in February.
"I don't believe he signed any form, but he did authorize making his military records available publicly," Mr. McClellan said. "We have released all the records, and reporters were allowed to look at his medical records as well."

has bush signed the form 180 or not?











46 posted on 09/17/2004 6:22:01 AM PDT by steveeboy
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To: hawkaw
The only "180" Kerry hasn't done is an SF180
- might make a good tagline
47 posted on 09/17/2004 7:09:47 AM PDT by paleocon patriarch (President Bush is a fighter - John Kerry is a TOMATO CANdidate)
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To: demlosers

I'm listening to Garrison, who is ripping Kerry and Rather.

http://www.wibc.com/streaming/streamingpage.aspx

Is there a link to Ollie and Hannity?


48 posted on 09/17/2004 7:14:06 AM PDT by Samwise (Kerry's convoluted speaking style correlates with his convoluted thought processes.)
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To: demlosers; Samwise

I finally found it the link. Thanks.


49 posted on 09/17/2004 7:15:44 AM PDT by Samwise (Kerry's convoluted speaking style correlates with his convoluted thought processes.)
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To: steveeboy
why does he ask for more paperwork?

At the risk of engaging in some pop psychology, Kerry's ego would not allow him to get replicas of his medals. In his mind, he earned and deserved them. He did this in 1985 after he had been elected to the Senate the first time. He was sitting on top of the world. It is interesting that the certificates were signed in June 1985, so he must have started the process almost immediately after he took office in January 1985. I guess he wanted to decorate his office quickly, which he did based on reports that visitors have seen the medals displayed prominently in his office.

There have been reports from sources like Hannity that Bush signed a 180 or issued an executive-type order that all his records be released, yet we read that AP is going through the courts to have them all released based on a FOIA request. I heard Tom Lipscomb say on the Malzberg radio show that Bush did not/not sign an SF 180. If he hasn't, he should.

50 posted on 09/17/2004 8:12:25 AM PDT by kabar
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