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A New Era of Credibility
Tax Relief ^ | September 17, 2004 | Tax Relief

Posted on 09/17/2004 4:27:35 AM PDT by TaxRelief

The conservative web group, FReerepublic.com, in its quest for "truth in media", may have accidentally stumbled across the means for unseating the leftists' obsession with "tolerance".

For over a year now, Freerepublic.com bloggers (Freepers) have been publically challenging the "factual information" disseminated in news stories published by the main stream media (MSM). The website's members have picked apart undocumented statistics; they've delved into the partisan semantics of questions on political polls; they've "FReeped" online polls to prove the uselessness of easily manipulated data; they've exposed sub-groups of radical activist organizations like "PETA", which pose as research "think tanks" and "responsible physicians"; they've bombarded news stations with phone calls and emails when the reporting is blatantly one-sided or even false; and finally, as this summer draws to a close, they have begun to publically object to lazy and biased newscasting.

As the analytical members of the conservative website FReerepublic.com have relentlessly challenged the credibility of the MSM, they have also simultaneously proven a theory that our forefathers discussed as they authored the first ten Amendments to the US Constitution; the Freedom of the Press has to be absolute, not just because truth is critical for sustaining a democracy in an otherwise Socialist world, but because truth itself cannot be ordered or legislated; it is the process of discourse, debate and disagreement that leads to true enlightenment.

However, as history has shown numerous times in the past, when "enlightenment" rears it's shining head, "darkness" goes on the defensive. Clearly, the crowd that seeks the truth is in direct conflict with those that "believe" truth is subjective and personal.

In the early seventies, a movement that focused on "prejudice" and "intolerance"--catch words intended to stop random and cruel discrimination against people with different colored skins--ballooned into a social behavior fad that temporarily pushed aside conservative etiquette. As a result, an entire generation of young people has now been raised believing that the concept of "maintaining a good reputation" is a selfish ploy perpetuated by adults who seek to control the scope of their teenagers' sexual activity, that everyone has the right to choose his own moral framework, and that questioning another's reputation is the equivalent of discrimination based on ethnicity.

In the process of subverting social norms, the simple concepts of credibility, honesty and reputation were thrown out with the bath water. A few folks saw what was happening along the way; many had to go through their own life experiences to become aware of the problem, and some have only just figured it out. Regardless of what brought them to this point, conservatives are coming out of the closet in droves, and it seems they are not willing to just "sit back and take it" anymore.

This past week "FReepers" crossed a critical threshold in their war on liberalism. By exposing, Dan Rather, a long-time icon of the MSM, as a man who is, at best lazy and partisan, or at worst dishonest and partisan, they actually were successful in preventing a paparazzi attack on the White House.

The rumbling volcano finally erupted when Dan Rather of CBS news--apparently oblivious to the "New Media"--happily presented some weak, insupportable "evidence" that a sitting president had attempted to shirk his duty as an American by either (a) serving in the National Guard rather than the regular army, or (b) missing 3 months of his 6 years service in the National Guard.

Rather's "evidence" consisted of "testimony" from partisan hacks and misquoted experts, and copies of memos "signed by" a man who died years ago (thereby unseating the commonly accepted theory that "dead men can't tell tales").

A FReeper, "Buckhead", immediately challenged the authenticity of the memos. Within hours, CBS's self-satisfied smiles were wiped off their faces, by the analytical branch of the "New Media".

This may well have been an historical moment; the MSM had probably never been diverted from its modus operandi of accuse-and-attack so successfully in the past. The MSM understandably was stunned to discover that the "seekers of truth" had reached a critical-enough mass to subvert "Plan A", the accuse-and-attack mission plan that had withstood the test of time; and to squash "Plan B": blame "intolerance" for anything that goes wrong. For forty years, the MSM had misused the concept of "tolerance" to cover-up its inadequacy, its laziness and the many, many errors made in haste, all because of a desire to get credit for "breaking the story".

Unfortunately for the MSM--but fortunately for America--FReepers and other rightwing bloggers are calling for a New Era of Credibility. Rightwingers are relying on the age-old premise that each individual is only as good as his honor and his ability to seekout and relay the truth (rather than the leftist theory that each man is only as good as his college degree--whether earned or gifted). The conservative bloggers harken back to the biblically-sound theory that a reputation once damaged is rarely ever recovered.

There may be no greater service that FReerepublic.com can do for the American people than to continue their mission to expose the MSM's poor journalistic practices (like quoting and enshrining of "unnamed sources"; the use of un-authenticated documents; the poor selection of interviewees; personal relationships between editors and partisan hacks; the backroom cover-up games and the rampant plagiarism of blogs and other reporter's articles). Perhaps they will even bring about the demise of the monopolistic mainstream media altogether.

Liberals may have attempted to destroy the value of a good reputation by telling kids not to "judge" others and to be "tolerant", but those same leftists did not eradicate the quest for truth well enough to prevent a powerful force from re-emerging and continuing on with the mission to conquer social misbehavior.


TOPICS: Culture/Society; Editorial; US: North Carolina
KEYWORDS: freepersinpajamas; lyingmedia; medialies; napalminthemorning; pajamadeen; pajamapeople; rathergate
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To: Grampa Dave

I've been loving the new Swift Vet ad. It's been running very heavily on my cable all week.


51 posted on 09/17/2004 8:41:54 AM PDT by Gabz (Hurricanes and Kerry/Edwards have 2 things in common - hot air and destruction.)
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To: dinasour

My wife and most of our conservative friends no longer snicker when I mention what is happening on Free Republic.

Last week, I told her about Free Republic cracking the forgery. For some reason she had Fox News on and told me to sit down for a moment. The next segment was a good Blonde on Fox showing how the forgery was done.

My wife said, "Your Free Republic Friends" beat Fox with that scoop, didn't they!"


52 posted on 09/17/2004 8:42:26 AM PDT by Grampa Dave (When will the ABCNNBC BS lunatic libs stop lying to Americans? Answer: NEVER!)
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To: TaxRelief
Rightwingers are relying on the age-old premise that each individual is only as good as his honor and his ability to seekout and relay the truth

I have to believe that some "leftwingers" remain who share these same values.

53 posted on 09/17/2004 8:42:51 AM PDT by GSWarrior
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To: Grampa Dave
Our DIL has warned us that the kids have our life planned from the moment we arrive until we leave.

And I'm sure you will love every minute of it!!!!!!

54 posted on 09/17/2004 8:43:42 AM PDT by Gabz (Hurricanes and Kerry/Edwards have 2 things in common - hot air and destruction.)
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To: TaxRelief

There were times in the last five years that I considered changing my screen name. Articles like this give me hope...


55 posted on 09/17/2004 8:44:25 AM PDT by TruthWillWin
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To: MistyCA

Great article, thanks for the ping.

Freeper pajamarazzi rule.


56 posted on 09/17/2004 8:44:28 AM PDT by tractorman
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To: TaxRelief

Bump for future reference.


57 posted on 09/17/2004 8:44:36 AM PDT by Euro-American Scum (A poverty-stricken middle class must be a disarmed middle class)
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To: TaxRelief
I don't believe I have ever read a more concise and eloquent description of what this whole thing is about.


"Bravo!"

58 posted on 09/17/2004 8:45:58 AM PDT by Indie (Ignorance of the truth is no excuse for stupidity.)
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To: TaxRelief
Right on the money!The Internet is in the position to expose the lies and the truth must lie where it falls.
The liberals with the aid of the MSM have brainwashed large segments of the American population for years and they like certain others in our country have never been called to answer. That is the reason so many politicians have embellished and fabricated their resumes and gotten away with it. Enough is enough. Great job Freepers!
59 posted on 09/17/2004 8:46:03 AM PDT by gunnedah
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To: TaxRelief
I get most of my news from links on Free Republic and the Fox News Channel.

Lately I have been detecting a bias from Oh Really of Fox News. The other night he disparaged right-wingers. You could tell by his tone that he doesn't care for them.

I wonder what he thinks about Conservatives and the Free Republic?
60 posted on 09/17/2004 8:46:11 AM PDT by kapn kuek (Terrorism for Dummies: #7. When you hear terrorist, translate to islamic terrorist.)
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To: 68-69TonkinGulfYachtClub; TaxRelief; MistyCA; Jim Robinson
Big BUMP

and the History of FR from Jim Robinson ^.

Thank you, Jim.

61 posted on 09/17/2004 8:46:13 AM PDT by brityank (The more I learn about the Constitution, the more I realise this Government is UNconstitutional.)
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To: TaxRelief
MIDI - AMERICAN PIE

A long, long time ago...when the TV news biz started
They knew not where it would go
They hoped it would last forever...no matter how they did their jobs
But there were things that they just couldn't know
The public trust they were abusing...they thought that they would catch us snoozing
They sneaked in their bias...pretending to be pious
Talk Radio, cable, and internet...showed them all that their match they met
In his Depends Cronkite wet and Old Media had died

So bye, bye to Old Media, bye
It was quite a run but you are done and now it won't fly
New Media's here, so be a big girl, don't cry
We were laughing as Old Media died...laughing as Old Media died

It was Brokaw, Jennings, and Rather who each night put out all that blather
They determined what was news
They pretended that they were real journalists...the more we heard, the more we're p*ssed
We grew so weary of their slanted views
Every chance they'd knock the GOP...it was obvious, the blind could see
While they put out their leftist prattle...we were getting set for the battle
Well, there came a guy named JimRob who had quite enough
It was time our side proved that it had the right stuff...he took charge and showed them it wasn't a bluff
Old Media would die

We were singing, bye, bye to Old Media, bye
It was quite a run but you are done and now it won't fly
New Media's here, so be a big girl, don't cry
We were laughing as Old Media died...laughing as Old Media died

For years the game they had been winning 'cause they were really good at spinning
It was easy as could be
Entertainment they sometimes threw in for fun...they came down hard on those with guns
Oh my, there's Katie's colonoscopy
There was shock when they examined her..."That's her brain" each one would soon concur
Then the nurses all started screaming...when they realized they're not dreaming
We heard some shout, "Here is a chance we cannot let pass...we will say we're sorry if we're being too crass
Everyone knew Katie's head was in her *ss"
Old Media would die

We were singing, bye, bye to Old Media, bye
It was quite a run but you are done and now it won't fly
New Media's here, so be a big girl, don't cry
We were laughing as Old Media died...laughing as Old Media died

Their cheerleading really was shameless...for what RATS did they're always blameless
No one had been too surprised
To the whole world they'd proven that they were whores...they kissed the feet of Michael Moore
Can I please have that pizza supersized?
He ballooned up to a half a ton...he could cause an eclipse of the sun
To the anchors he was a hero...while things burned they're playing like Nero
There was no chance they would show both sides of anything...propaganda they had been determined to bring
One day they were foiled by the vast right wing
Old Media would die

We were singing, bye, bye to Old Media, bye
It was quite a run but you are done and now it won't fly
New Media's here, so be a big girl, don't cry
We were laughing as Old Media died...laughing as Old Media died

Would they do what's right? They're saying, "NO, never"...they thought they were just so very clever
They thought they'd get away with it
Docs were found down in Sandy Berger's pants...and Dan Rather thought he'd take a chance
With those forgeries now George Bush he would get
Dan used them and he was elated...but Bush is misunderestimated
Thanks to a group of sleepers...pajama-wearing FReepers
So Dan Rather's plan would fail...Ken's frequency was now in a jail
A happy ending to this tale
Old Media would die

We were singing, bye, bye to Old Media, bye
It was quite a run but you are done and now it won't fly
New Media's here, so be a big girl, don't cry
We were laughing as Old Media died

62 posted on 09/17/2004 8:46:16 AM PDT by doug from upland (Dan Rather is a journalist like Michael Moore is a pole vaulter.)
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To: tractorman

LMAO! :)


63 posted on 09/17/2004 8:47:11 AM PDT by MistyCA
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To: MistyCA; TaxRelief

Thanks for the ping Misty! Good job TaxRelief! A rousing post, to keep the momentum of the "pajama brigade" going. hehe


64 posted on 09/17/2004 8:47:29 AM PDT by FourtySeven (47)
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To: TaxRelief

Everytime the media is exposed Terrence J Wilkinson kills a kitten. Please... think of the kittens.


65 posted on 09/17/2004 8:48:18 AM PDT by Bogey78O (John Kerry: Better than Ted Kennedy!)
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To: Gabz

A young relative got back to me after I emailed the link to the new ad and said that it was the weakest.

I told him that he was too young to realize the damage that Kerry had done to America and Nam Vets after he got back.

Also, since he nor his dad never served in the military, he had no idea of how important that ad will be to most veterans and their family. A little later his favorite uncle on the other side of the family, a West Point grad with two tours in Nam and handful of medals explained to his young 30 something nephew the impact of this latest Swift Vet commercial.

Our mutual young relative got his eyes opened to history and the reality of Kerry throwing away his medals and lying about it.


66 posted on 09/17/2004 8:48:22 AM PDT by Grampa Dave (When will the ABCNNBC BS lunatic libs stop lying to Americans? Answer: NEVER!)
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To: brityank; Jim Robinson

Thanks, Brit! You did good, JimRob!


67 posted on 09/17/2004 8:48:58 AM PDT by MistyCA
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To: 68-69TonkinGulfYachtClub; MistyCA

Thank you both for an excellent ping!


68 posted on 09/17/2004 8:49:11 AM PDT by Humidston (COMUNIST PARTY (cpusa.org) USED TO HAVE A DIRECT LINK TO MOVEON.ORG. WHERE IS IT TODAY???)
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To: Gabz

You bet we will love it. The kids will love it and their parents love being away from them. It works out great for all of us.


69 posted on 09/17/2004 8:49:26 AM PDT by Grampa Dave (When will the ABCNNBC BS lunatic libs stop lying to Americans? Answer: NEVER!)
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To: TigersEye

I agree. This article rocks! We done good didn't we?


70 posted on 09/17/2004 8:49:40 AM PDT by Sunshine Sister
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To: TaxRelief

Proud to be a FReeper bump!


71 posted on 09/17/2004 8:49:41 AM PDT by subterfuge (Liberalism is, as liberalism does.)
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To: TaxRelief
[ Freedom of the Press has to be absolute, not just because truth is critical for sustaining a democracy in an otherwise Socialist world ]

America is'nt and should NOT be a democracy....

Democracy is the road to socialism. Karl Marx
Democracy is indispensable to socialism. The goal of socialism is communism. V.I. Lenin

72 posted on 09/17/2004 8:50:00 AM PDT by hosepipe (This propaganda has been edited to include some fully orbed hyperbole....)
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To: axel f

Ping for an excellent article!


73 posted on 09/17/2004 8:51:02 AM PDT by Sunshine Sister
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To: doug from upland
We were singing, bye, bye to Old Media, bye It was quite a run but you are done and now it won't fly New Media's here, so be a big girl, don't cry We were laughing as Old Media died!"

Play it again, Sam, er Doug!

74 posted on 09/17/2004 8:51:11 AM PDT by Grampa Dave (When will the ABCNNBC BS lunatic libs stop lying to Americans? Answer: NEVER!)
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To: TaxRelief

WOW!

I stand in awe and appreciation and applaude until my palms are blistered.


75 posted on 09/17/2004 8:53:38 AM PDT by F.J. Mitchell (If God had intended Kerry to be President, he would have made every American an imbecile..)
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To: TaxRelief
Sweet justice!!


76 posted on 09/17/2004 8:53:44 AM PDT by unixfox (Close the borders, problems solved!)
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To: Grampa Dave

Alright - break's over - back to work you Pajama Warriors! We have to win by a landslide so the Dems can't cheat :)


77 posted on 09/17/2004 8:54:13 AM PDT by Fenris6 (3 Purple Hearts in 4 months w/o missing a day of work? He's either John Rambo or a Fraud)
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To: TaxRelief

I've seen this referenced by Hayek's theory of spontaneous decentralized organization.

Apparently this was one of the biggest instances of it happening.


78 posted on 09/17/2004 8:54:21 AM PDT by Bogey78O (John Kerry: Better than Ted Kennedy!)
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To: gunnedah
I wonder... Could we get "Creditentaled" and cover our respective local/state government and "report" it here?

I for one have a local newspaper editor that is in the left pocket and is put forth as "the military expert" for the rag.

I would LOVE the opportunity to challenge his A$$
79 posted on 09/17/2004 8:55:09 AM PDT by Robe (Rome did not create a great empire by talking, they did it by killing all those who opposed them)
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To: Grampa Dave

I have learned more about the Vietnam era in the past few months than I probably knew in my entire life. I was born in 1960, so was really not cognizant of what was ging on at the tim.

But even I immediately grasped the seriousness of what Kerry and his type did to our men and women in uniform.


80 posted on 09/17/2004 8:56:25 AM PDT by Gabz (Hurricanes and Kerry/Edwards have 2 things in common - hot air and destruction.)
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To: MistyCA; TaxRelief; All

Well said!! FR, Jim R. and our fellow Freepers are an amazing community of endless knowledge, courage and fortitude. Good riddance to MSM.

For those out there who are investors, check your investments closely and pull-out of investments in these MSM companies who do NOT represent the truth; and do not represent American values. Money talks.


81 posted on 09/17/2004 8:56:27 AM PDT by all4one ("..a politician is to be judged by the animosities he excites among his opponents" Sir W. Churchill)
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To: MistyCA

thanks for the ping. Very well written article. A keeper.


82 posted on 09/17/2004 8:56:55 AM PDT by OldCorps
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To: TaxRelief; Jim Robinson

I like your style. And I'm deeply thankful to JimRob, who made this forum possible for all of us frustrated conservatives!

For years now, we've jumped up and down trying to reclaim our rights, and now "they're" all listening....

The ball's in our court. We must take care not to flub it!


83 posted on 09/17/2004 8:58:23 AM PDT by Humidston (COMUNIST PARTY (cpusa.org) USED TO HAVE A DIRECT LINK TO MOVEON.ORG. WHERE IS IT TODAY???)
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To: Repairman Jack

(Courtesy of Reality Hammer)

84 posted on 09/17/2004 8:58:25 AM PDT by Bogey78O (John Kerry: Better than Ted Kennedy!)
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To: TaxRelief

"Dan Rather, a long-time icon of the MSM, as a man who is, at best lazy and partisan, or at worst dishonest and partisan."

Incredibly, the statement above gives Rather too much credit. He is actually a megalomaniac in a seething rage against those who dare slap him across the face with his own inadequacies. It's no wonder the phony Marine would lie for the phony Navy war hero. They are both frauds and they hate the truth.


85 posted on 09/17/2004 8:58:26 AM PDT by OhMike (He which hath no stomach to this fight, let him depart...we would not die in that man's company.)
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To: Bogey78O; jimrob; All
I just wanted to say to all the fellow FReepers who broke the story and to JimRob : YOU GUYS ROCK!!!

Warmest Regards
Alkhin, which she is simply an observer and a proud member of Free Republic.

86 posted on 09/17/2004 8:58:26 AM PDT by Alkhin (just another one of my fly-bys...he thinks I need keeping in order.)
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To: MistyCA

Thanks for the ping. This is worth a bookmark.


87 posted on 09/17/2004 8:59:16 AM PDT by Brownie74
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To: MistyCA
Thanks for the ping.
It truly makes one proud to be a FReeper.
However, we should cautiously keep things in perspective.
Our credibility suffers a setback when covoluted propaganda advocating the National Retail Sales Tax is left unchallenged. That abomination is the most flagrant distortion of economic theory to have ever been submitted to Congress.
88 posted on 09/17/2004 8:59:23 AM PDT by Willie Green (Go Alan Go!!!)
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To: SierraWasp


"Liberals may have attempted to destroy the value of a good reputation by telling kids not to "judge" others and to be "tolerant","

In the name of tolerance, ALL intolerant people should be killed!!


89 posted on 09/17/2004 8:59:31 AM PDT by FastCoyote
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To: TaxRelief; Buckhead; Jim Robinson

I think the new media should honor exceptional bloggers with an award - the Buckhead - to be lovingly known as the "Bucky".


90 posted on 09/17/2004 8:59:41 AM PDT by Notwithstanding
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To: TaxRelief

Well said.

I agree: We have entered a new era in the dissemination of information. I predict historians of the future will look at two events as the most significant: Drudge outing the Lewinski scandal when the MSM refused, and FR (thanks Buckhead!) catching CBS in deliberate fraud.

Meanwhile, back in the present, we have a long ways left to go in this election. CBS clearly had more in mind than a one shot attack on the President, and CBS was not the only player involved. They are holding back on round two until the dust settles, and you can bet they will do a better job with their next set of fake materials. This particular battle is not over.


91 posted on 09/17/2004 9:00:02 AM PDT by EternalHope (Boycott everything French forever. Including their vassal nations.)
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To: MistyCA

Thanks, Hey we're famous.


92 posted on 09/17/2004 9:00:06 AM PDT by JMJJR (charlatan and exploiter)
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To: TaxRelief

bttt


93 posted on 09/17/2004 9:00:14 AM PDT by UnbelievingScumOnTheOtherSide (Give Them Liberty Or Give Them Death! - Islam Delenda Est! - Rumble thee forth...)
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To: TaxRelief
As the analytical members of the conservative website FReerepublic.com have relentlessly challenged the credibility of the MSM, they have also simultaneously proven a theory that our forefathers discussed as they authored the first ten Amendments to the US Constitution; the Freedom of the Press has to be absolute, not just because truth is critical for sustaining a democracy in an otherwise Socialist world, but because truth itself cannot be ordered or legislated; it is the process of discourse, debate and disagreement that leads to true enlightenment.

Unless of course you're an activist judge who couldn't give a rat's a** about what the founders thought, while ruling on whether it's legal to repost news articles for discussion, instead of linking or excerpting them from where they can be pulled or modified.

This is so important at this point. MSM has shown they aren't even a step removed from 1984 anymore... AP and CBS in just the last week and a half have proven where their sentiments lie: squarely with the Democrats, and "who controls the past, controls the future, and who controls the present controls the past."

They've tied one arm behind our backs, and we've still given some of those weasels a haymaker punch to the nose and a standing 8-count.

94 posted on 09/17/2004 9:01:10 AM PDT by Dr.Deth
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To: MistyCA

Thanks for the ping


95 posted on 09/17/2004 9:01:33 AM PDT by P8riot (A gun is just a substitute for a penis, so when attacked by a mugger one should pull out a..........)
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To: Grampa Dave
Then we will stop the new lies that AP is starting about no real WMDS were in Iraq. The MSM will be doing the same thing with the upcoming UN report that they did with the 9/11 report before it came out. We have the UN's own report to show that AP is and will be lying on this issue with the other liars of the MSM.

Don't forget to have your liberal friends google the words "Salman Pak" when they tell you there's no connection between Saddam and 9/11!

96 posted on 09/17/2004 9:03:49 AM PDT by Ronaldus Magnus Reagan
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To: 68-69TonkinGulfYachtClub

Thanks for the ping!


97 posted on 09/17/2004 9:05:40 AM PDT by Alamo-Girl
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To: MistyCA

That's enough to make a person proud!


98 posted on 09/17/2004 9:07:51 AM PDT by R. Scott (Humanity i love you because when you're hard up you pawn your Intelligence to buy a drink.)
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To: MistyCA
all because of a desire to get credit for "breaking the story".

Getting warm. Let me expand on this a little since this is something I was just thinking about this during the daily ride.

In this week's genre breaking soap opera, the story was (and continues to be) the "unnamed sources", which some in the MSM are now reluctantly and lazily pursuing (i.e. ABC, the Washing Post.) But it occurred to me that in most similar media created dramas the story was "the unnamed sources" - how they got what they got, how and why they delivered it to the media, their reasons, motives and the media's reasons and motives. The story bigger than some minor failed burglary and the subsequent clumsy coverup should have been (I mean, at the time and not just afterwards) who is Deep Throat (David Gergen, ya think?) That story wasn't pursued, because the media's interest was simply bringing down the President.

Since Watergate a whole industry of leakers, disgruntled psychos, hustlers representing themselves as "experts", and television pretty face "journalists" has developed to feed the MSM's hunger for political or business (but never media) scandal. The story, my pajama clad friends, is usually, and not only when they decide for us and make a Julia Roberts movie about it, the story is the MSM's "unimpeachable sources"! The story is the man behind the curtain, Dorothy!

99 posted on 09/17/2004 9:08:00 AM PDT by Revolting cat! ("In the end, nothing explains anything!")
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To: doug from upland; All
Actually, at least with them (the MSM) we knew what the lies were....

Seriously, folks, with power comes problems.

I may get flamed for this, (and no, DFU, this is not aimed at you nor anyone in particular), but we absolutely must retain the fairness, the sense of right and wrong, and the moral and intellectual honesty which the MSM has been lacking.

On rare occasions, that means we will have to go out of attack mode to (grudgingly) give someone we don't like credit--or ignore the story altogether.

If we do not, we will degenerate to just another mob with a different bias.

That said, when we catch 'em we can really give 'em Hell and have a great time doing it.

100 posted on 09/17/2004 9:08:11 AM PDT by Smokin' Joe (900 FBI files beat 4 aces every time.....)
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