Oklahoma Ping!
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Posted on 09/17/2004 9:58:48 AM PDT by eveningrain
Who is Coburn to say who is a "real" Cherokee and who isn't? As a Cherokee woman I take great umbrage to the statements he made againt our nations' people. The Cherokee people have always had the "one drop" rule, but then again, as indigenous nations throughout this land we call home, we are the only people to be described in fractions or who have to prove "who we are" with a us governmental card - it's easier to be a terrorist and be more welcomed into this country, than to be an Indian, who were here long before the Europeans set sail.
He has no right to determine who is or who isn't Cherokee, no more than he has a right to determine who is or who isn't black, Asian, etc. If he is elected to represent all the people of Oklahoma, his statements certainly prove that this is not true at all. Seems to me, he's probably more involved with One Nation - which has proven to be a racist organization with one motivation only - to destroy native nations and soverign rights. If anything, perhaps Mr. Coburn is somewhat envious of the Great Cherokee Nation and our people.
Like it or not - get use to it. We are here, we have always been here and we are not going anywhere in spite of all the attempts made in the past and in the present, to wipe us from our own native land.
http://www.cherokee.org/NewsArchives/announcements/2004-Coburn-Altus.asp
Remarks at Altus Town Hall (August 21, 2004)
*****
http://64.62.196.98/News/2004/004263.asp
GOP candidate says Cherokees aren't real Indians Friday, September 17, 2004
A conservative Republican in a highly competitive race with a Cherokee Nation tribal member is coming under fire for claiming that Cherokees "aren't Indians" and for suggesting that tribal sovereignty is a "joke."
Tom Coburn, a former Congressman who won the GOP nomination for U.S. Senate over rivals who had the backing of party leaders, told a town hall meeting in Altus, Oklahoma, recently that the Cherokee Nation wants to enroll more members in order to receive more federal funds. He questioned the legitimacy of the tribe's heritage and said "the average Cherokee [blood] quantum is 1/512."
"Alright, listen, I know the tribal issues," he said on August 21. "I was a congressman where most of the Indians are in this state. The problem is, most of them aren't Indians."
Coburn went on to criticize attempts by several Oklahoma tribes to assert environmental authority over their lands. He then blasted opponent Rep. Brad Carson (D), a Cherokee member, for sponsoring a bill that would prevent land owned by Cherokee and other citizens of the Five Civilized Nations from falling out of trust.
"I mean this is a joke," Coburn told the audience. "It is one thing for us to keep our obligations to recognize Native Americans, but it's a totally different thing for us to allow a primitive agreement with the Native Americans to undermine Oklahoma's future and that's what they're talking about doing and it's big money."
The remarks largely went unnoticed until the Democratic Senatorial Campaign Committee, which is making a big push on behalf of Carson, began circulating them. Previously, only Coburn's characterization of the race against Carson as "the battle of good versus evil," also made at the Altus meeting, ended up in the mainstream press.
But now, tribal leaders who are firing back at Coburn for his "divisive" comments. Even though some are registered Republicans, they say they aren't going to support him.
"I'm a Republican and it is hard to understand why Tom Coburn takes pride in dividing Oklahoma and ridiculing people," said Chad Smith, principal chief of the Cherokee Nation. "If you disagree with him, you are evil. There's no discussion, no room for understanding."
"I've been a Republican all my life and Tom Coburn is an embarrassment to the Republican party," added Bill Johnson, a tribal council member.
The battle between Coburn and Carson is a significant one for several reasons. Carson would be the only Native American in the Senate since Republican Ben Nighthorse Campbell, a member of the Northern Cheyenne Tribe of Montana, is retiring.
The outcome of the race also will help determine which party controls the Senate. Democrats and Republicans are hoping to pick up seats in order to shift the balance of power in what is now a one-member Republican majority.
Polls currently show the two candidates neck-and-neck. A television poll released this week put Carson in the lead but only by two points. Nearly one in five voters was undecided. The Senate seat up for grabs is being vacated by Republican Don Nickels, who is retiring.
Smith has said in the past that the Cherokee Nation does not endorse candidates for public office. But he has actively encouraged tribal members to vote. The tribe counts more than 200,000 members.
Former principal chief Wilma Mankiller is supporting Democratic candidates, including the presidential ticket of Sens. John Kerry and John Edwards. She characterized Coburn as a radical who is out of touch with America.
"Tom Coburn's extremist views on the basic rights of women and outrageous views of tribal citizens and their governments are shocking and simply too far out of the mainstream for him to serve as our United States Senator," she said.
Carson won his party's nomination in July with 80 percent of the vote. He was elected twice to the U.S. House, serving the 2nd Congressional district, which has the highest percentage of Native Americans anywhere in the country.
Even tho Tom may be right, does he really need to fight this one?
Welcome to FR.
I really dont understand why Coburn would say such a thing. I hope you dont think all republican are like him. Or that you are a troll.
I'm wondering how many folks, especially in states that had large Indian populations at one time (or were moved there) claim to be Indians, while having a tenuous connection at best. I guess I could be considered Indian as my paternal Great Grandmother had some Indian blood, and my Daddy's profile looked for all the world like the one of the Indian on the back of the Buffalo nickel! I don't consider myself Indian, except when describing the mixture from both my parents. Some folks want to be considered part of a group, for whatever reason, and don't like that being questioned by anyone.
I think that Coburn is just saying that the tribes need to have some standards, that they try to draw anyone with a single drop of Indian blood to the tribal reservation for financial purposes, that they've turned tribal sovereignty into a welfare program. (Maybe that is one of the reasons they're poorer than most.)
I'm part American Indian myself (1/124.) but I certainly don't think of myself in those terms. I suppose I could if I chose to.
We should do something to increase the rights, responsibilities, and authority of the Indians, as well as their standard of living. I don't know what it is, but handing out money on the basis of tribal membership isn't working. It turns tribal sovereignty into the school lunch program: "Please sign up! Pleeeeeeease!"
We are neck-and-neck and the Repub goes and sticks his foot in his mouth. His silliness that the average Cherokee is only 1/512 is garbage. I'm 1/32 and I consider myself "British-American" of which I'm about 1/2. But then the focus should be on the bill, not the ignorance of the politicians.
The one-drop rule, for generations after the Civil War, was excoriated as a remnant of slavery and racism. Consequently, laws enforcing race and blood percentages were all struck down in the 1960s. These moves were heralded among people of color and all people of good will.
Of course, in this era where all people (except white men) are part of some disadvantaged and preferred group, receiving special treatment by governmental and even private entities, it is advantageous to claim you are 1/256th Eskimo, for example.
Coburn was absolutely right...though it is not always wise, politically, to speak the truth.
Carson is a fractional; he is also an extreme liberal who would be a disaster as a Senator.
(My great-grandmother was a full-blooded Cherokee)
Now Carson allies are playing the race card against Dr Coburn. Soon we will hear how many senior citizens, Dr Coburn put death. RAT rhetoric is getting tiresome.
I'm from Oklahoma and am well aware of some of the issues here.
Do we think we might be a tad sensitive here? Are we trying to play the Political Correctness Card?
This is part of the Negative Campaigning begun last week by Democrat Brad Carson who is slightly behind in the polls and is totally worthless.
Oklahoma Ping!
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Alas, he did say it apparently. It's all over our local news. Hubby asked me this morning, What's going on ? Doesn't he really want to win this? It does seem strange, but whatever, it's most unfortunate. The liberal is already ahead in the polls.
I'm not sure of the demographics of OK, but perhaps a little TRUTH, frankness, and non-PCness will energize the good people of the state.
Actually, he does. You see, tribes have benefits to those they issue CDIB cards (certificate of degree of Indian Blood). If you have a CDIB card, you get free medical care at the IHS clinics etc.
Now, because the Cherokee are intermarried, those with one 16th cherokee blood will have a card, whereas most tribes make the cut off of services as 1 eighth, so that those who are truely living as an Indian will get the poorly funded government services.
Some in Oklahoma think that the Cherokees did this to "inflate" their numbers, to outnumber, for example, the truely larger Navajo tribe in getting government contracts.
Personally, since I am white, I don't care. But if you are an Arapaho or a Cheyenne with 3/4 indian blood, living on the verge of poverty, you might get upset that a one 16th yuppie from Broken Arrow gets free medical care and uses contract health funds...
I wish that were true. I don't believe it is, however. Carson is going to jump on this one, as he has with other remarks. There are a lot of Democrats in Oklahoma, even though a lot of them vote Republican in the presidential elections.
BTTT!!!!!!!
http://www.cherokee.org/Phoenix/2004/PhoenixPage.asp?ID=661
http://www.cherokeeheritage.org/genealogy/gen_cdibtm.html
Indian humor. If you don't think this is funny, you probably are a twinkie
http://members.tripod.com/TopCat4/twinkie.htm
My grandma is Choctaw Indian, she has pretty much said the same things about her people. She has said that she couldnt possibly continue to dwell on the past and wait for the government to give to her what she could go out and create on her own, she literally left the reservation over 50 years ago. Plus she is mad that so many choctaws of european blood are given tribal rights.
But saying that, I cant understand why a politician would say this, especially in Oklahoma, its what I would call career suicide.
Glad to hear about this, that makes me a Cherokee. Maybe I can get some kind of affirmative action?
I've had business with the Carsons in that neck of the woods and never knew they were even fractional Native Americans. I look much more Native, and I'm 100% Norsky. There's more partial Cherokees in this country than any other nationality if one believes everyone who claims it.
Is Coburn imploding for a reason??
Ping!
I was advised by a Shawnee tribe in Oklahoma that I was 1/32 Shawnee and eligible for tribal membership about 12 years ago. I laughed it off. Now they're planning a casino or two in Ohio. Might not have been a good move on my part.
Some of the posters obviously don't live in this State. Agree with you 100%. What Dr. Coburn says is correct. The Cherokee's are also the tribe that had a lot of problems with their leadership the other year when one group took over the HQ -- they are always fighting about something it seems.
Cherokee's are out to stir up trouble at the request of the RATs IMHO. Remember they "found" thousands of extra Cherokee votes in the last Governor's race that propelled Democrat Brad Henry into the Governor's seat. Now they have a gaming compact and about to get even more advanced gambling thanks to Brad Henry! Their best bet is to go after Dr. Tom! Despicable RAT tactics -- race doesn't matter -- if you are a RAT here, I put you in the same category -- lowlife and slimey just like the Insurance Commissioner.
It's not too late. Start a casino in your basement.
Take your doom and gloom elsewhere along with such a dumb question. You are not from OK and don't have the foggiest what you are talking about. For you to say he is imploding is ridiculous and shows your lack of knowledge of this State. This State is heavily Dem except for the national elections -- they Indians want a Dem so they can get more handouts in OK as if they didn't have enough if you ask me!
We are working hard to elect Dr. Tom and he will be our next Senator.
I heard he is behind? Why is he behind? It should be a cake walk-- OK is a GOP state. He needs to get his act together.
You know the "Trail of Tears"? I found it. It's from the Cherokee casino in NC to my house here in Ga. Everytime. LOL
I have met a lot of the Chickasaws by volunteering in the Cole campaign in 2002 and really nice people.
That said, I know one Cherokee that his Grandfather refused to sign off that he was 1/2 Cherokee because he said he wanted him to earn his own way and he didn't need any handouts. If he wanted a college education, earn it like everyone else.
The license plates in this State are a joke from the Cherokee with their one drop rule. A lot of the other tribes have been disgusted with them for years and I don't think this is going to hurt Dr. Tom as much as some people say. I, for one, am tired of all the handouts and then they do all the Indian gambling. Chickasaws pretty much take care of their own. From all accounts, that cannot be said of the Cherokees -- they have been fighting each other since we moved into the State.
My Income Taxes are so high thanks to all the freebies and lack of paying sales tax that the Indians even though they have their Smoke Shops and Gambling casinos.
Oklahoma is not a GOP State. We have a lot more registered Dems then Republicans along with a Democrat Governor. We just happened to have some great Congressman. The Dems have controlled the legislature for 80 years. I live in the 3rd largest county in the State and we only became Republican a couple of years ago by a slim margin.
We are only GOP at the Presidential level -- we had to spend hours and hours to get Tom Cole elected to replace J.C. because Republicans are vastly outnumbered in the 4th District. My County took him over the top but Tom is a Chickasaw which helped tremendously in that race in 2002! Although I must admit Walters who said he had no Indian blood looked more Indian than Tom.
We have one poll showing Carson ahead -- polls showed our primary race neck and neck and Dr. Tom didn't need a run-off. Dr. Tom has some of the best campaign staff I have seen to date and I do not believe the people of this State are going to punish him for telling the truth when Carson lies so bad.
Oklahomans want a plain spoken person and Dr. Tom is that person.
You signed up today to post this crap -- I should have checked. Don't you all get tired of carrying Parmalee and the RAT's water in this State?
I would remind everyone once again what is at stake here. As I explained in another thread Carson is endorrsed by the one world organization Moveon.org. If he wins this election, Oklahoma will end up getting the short end.
Regards.
One problem with OK is that there are a lot of elderly folks who still think Carson and Gov Henry are "Zell Miller Dems". These people need to realize that Michael Moore fans are running the Democrat Party. These days, there is little difference between a San Francisco RAT and a Southern RAT.
Do you know how far back you would have to go to get that number? My greatgrandmother was Indian and she was born about 1854.
You vote that way on the federal level. You sent Nickles and and Inhoffe to DC-- they aren't exactly Chuck Shumers.
I just am counting on holding the seat. To the degree that that looks in doubt, Coburn is on my crap list.
But keep plugging away, maybe he'll turn it around. And maybe Bush will win so big in OK that he'll bring Coburn along too.
LOL! The Cherokee Nation is supposed to be in the early stages of development for a casino in northern Morrow County, Ohio right now. A 1/4 Cherokee farmer donated 400 acres to the Cherokee Nation and they allegedly just told Governor Bob Taft he was getting a new casino up the road.
Obviously......
Obviously......>>>
Whats that supposed to mean?
I can categorically say that Indians are just as racist as the white man, the black man, and the yellow man, etc..etc.. It always floors me..that people who have been racially discriminated against...would be some of the first to do that which they loathe.
Light skinned blacks being discriminated against by the dark skinned members of their race.
1/4 blood Indians being looked down upon by those of more blood degree. And the 1/4 bloods in turn talk about the lesser bloods.
Brown skinned Hawaiians excepting almost anyone of brown skin.....( Even if their surname is Gomez..) over anyone of white skin.
It's absolutely maddening.....
You admitted you didn't understand...I agreed.
I can't really say, other than possibly trying to keep the tribe alive... a continuation of tradition, language, culture etc...
Brad Carson is native American? That never occured to me. He's never advertised it before.
That said, Coburn committed a gaffe. Multiple gaffes if you include the "good versus evil" remark. Neither of these if fatal by themselves, and he has time to recover. But I now have reservations about his campaign skills.
Thanks for the ping!
Thanks for that!
Its about time we got some freepers defending Dr. Coburn!
Ugh.
Coburn's campaign is becoming unfocused. He's off message, and starting to look like a loose cannon. And I was so optimistic that Coburn would be a conservative stalwart in the Senate.
Ugh. :(
Q: What do you call a bus full of Cherokees?
A: A full blood.
Yeah, yeah, there's nothing more racist than an Indian. If a definiative book outlining political dirty tricks was ever written, it'd be done by an Indian. But there are some things that someone who's running for the senate should keep their butts out of, and tribal membership is one of them.
It's hard enough to be a Republican in Indian country, and cracks like this one make it that much harder. I hope Chad Smith still keeps speaking well of Bush, and that Mankiller goes back to campaigning for ineffective third parties.
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