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Putin: Ally or Terrorist? (Russian FSB/KGB Real Culprits Behind "Chechen Terrorism")
The New American ^ | February 2002 | William Jasper

Posted on 09/21/2004 8:24:29 PM PDT by GIJoel

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To: Destro

You post Novak's opinion of what Bush is doing, and I posted a direct quote from Bush which contradicts Novak's opinion of what Bush thinks...Novak isn't a communist, he's simply wrong.


461 posted on 09/23/2004 6:00:24 AM PDT by Luis Gonzalez ( Even Jane Fonda apologized. Will you, John?)
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To: Fatalis
In other words, they're both evil, and some people in here are defending evil.

By the way, if Muslims are evil because they murder children, what have you to say about the million unborn we murder yearly, sacrificed to the God of "reproductive choice"?

If the murder of children is the measure of evil, we are unspeakable monsters in the US.

462 posted on 09/23/2004 6:03:08 AM PDT by Luis Gonzalez ( Even Jane Fonda apologized. Will you, John?)
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To: Luis Gonzalez
Best let the Guardian, CNN, and Pravda that their reporting is screwy here!

Ahh Louis, I take it back, it's not Neocons or Wahhibies, it must be socialists since all three papers/news sites you quote are left of left. How about: Star, Fox, Russia Journal? There, 3 right wing papers for a right form. If what you quote is lefters to defend yourself, you have no foundation to stand on. Not here, but DU Underground would love you. They all worship those 3 whores of communism. There you would find common, surrender monkey to terror ground. Have fun and send a post card.

463 posted on 09/23/2004 6:04:23 AM PDT by jb6 (Truth = Christ)
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To: jb6
Reading challenged, aren't you?

My quote pertains to the reporting of the presence of tanks in the battle...it was reported by PRO-PUTIN PUBLICATIONS.

Putin is left of left, he's a communist, and his own State-controlled publication, Pravda, reported the tanks at the school.

DU supports Putin, as you support Putin.

464 posted on 09/23/2004 6:12:42 AM PDT by Luis Gonzalez ( Even Jane Fonda apologized. Will you, John?)
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To: quant5
The CURRENT facts are revealing that Russia is going back towards Communism and Socialism at best.

Please define communism and socialism and then show how Putin's actions are taking Russia into that direction. Please define republicanism vs autocracy and capitalism. So many freepers throw around terms without any connetation to their meaning. You do realize that an autocratic state is not a communist state. You do realize that capitalism can live just fine in an autocratic state? Do you have any CURRENT facts on the economic changes of the past 5 years (now that the friends of Gore that the Neocons so love are gone) that have taken place?

465 posted on 09/23/2004 6:14:13 AM PDT by jb6 (Truth = Christ)
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To: jb6
You questioned my mentioning the tanks because you didn't see them on TV, did you not?

Well, I provided proof of their presence from Putin's own State-controlled paper as well as other strong pro-Putin publications...they support him because he's a communist and they're leftists, and they reported the presence of the tanks.

Keep up with the argument, or go stand on the sidelines with the amateurs.

466 posted on 09/23/2004 6:17:28 AM PDT by Luis Gonzalez ( Even Jane Fonda apologized. Will you, John?)
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To: Poohbah

Let's get Jeff in here, then you can tell him that he's a Islamicist shill to his face yourself, shall we?


467 posted on 09/23/2004 6:19:12 AM PDT by Luis Gonzalez ( Even Jane Fonda apologized. Will you, John?)
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To: Poohbah
"He got his info from CAIR and the WRMEA."

You've just quite possibly exposed this site to a slander and defamation of character suit from both Mr. Jacoby, and the Boston Globe.

I think that you either have to provide proof of your accusation or retract the statement.

468 posted on 09/23/2004 6:22:25 AM PDT by Luis Gonzalez ( Even Jane Fonda apologized. Will you, John?)
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To: jb6

"You do realize that an autocratic state is not a communist state. You do realize that capitalism can live just fine in an autocratic state? Do you have any CURRENT facts on the economic changes of the past 5 years (now that the friends of Gore that the Neocons so love are gone) that have taken place?"

This sounds like Carville "It's the ECONOMY stupid"....

Big problem it is not about "capitalism vs. communism".

The base definition of what "communism" really means and the exact opposite is what gets called "capitalism".

Words mean things and part of the problem is the perversion of the meaning of words.... I can say this cause I know what is commonly taught in elementary school about "communism" vs. "capitalism" and it is a complete distortion.


469 posted on 09/23/2004 6:24:07 AM PDT by Just mythoughts
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To: quant5
Putin armed the middle eastern terrorists, yes.

Which groups and with what? Backed up facts please.

470 posted on 09/23/2004 6:26:38 AM PDT by jb6 (Truth = Christ)
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To: jb6
"I guess you missed the various elections with US and EU and UN observers all saying the people voted freely."

One correction..."...the people voted freely...", past tense.

Putin just suspended elections for governors in Russia, is appointing members to the Duma along Party lines, and is looking for ways to remain in power past his term, against the Russian Constitution, and without having to be re-elected.

It's not that I'm a liar, it's that you're sadly misinformed.

471 posted on 09/23/2004 6:27:03 AM PDT by Luis Gonzalez ( Even Jane Fonda apologized. Will you, John?)
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To: GIJoel
But more chillingly, Shifrin has recently discovered that the "former" Soviet Union under Boris Yeltsin is rapidly building many new camps throughout the country, in addition to the thousands of ongoing camps. These still-empty camps could serve to hold vast numbers of Western Europeans once the Red Army moves into Germany, Italy, France, and England.

Which Red Army? The one surrounded by NATO in Europe, Central Asia and Caucusis? US spends more on defense then the rest of the world combined. We've hit more countries in the past 10 years then anyone else and are in 120+ countries and you are paranoid of the Red Army? Wow, talk about delusions.

472 posted on 09/23/2004 6:29:05 AM PDT by jb6 (Truth = Christ)
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To: quant5

People fail to understand one very basic notion...totalitarianism arising in Russia as a pretext to fighting Islamic terrorists does not give us an ally in the War on Terror...it adds an enemy.


473 posted on 09/23/2004 6:29:43 AM PDT by Luis Gonzalez ( Even Jane Fonda apologized. Will you, John?)
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To: GIJoel
90% of people, who spreads anti-Polish propaganda are:
A Germans
B Jews
C Russians

You are A, B or C ?
474 posted on 09/23/2004 6:31:29 AM PDT by Grzegorz 246
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To: ApesForEvolution; ninenot; sittnick; steve50; Hegemony Cricket; Willie Green; Wolfie; ex-snook; ...
Pooty in Russia has centralized (or did he ever really decentralize?) and consolidated all power away from representative-leaning democracy now, after this horrible, senseless tragedy of satan's spawn in Beslan. His power grab, in my mind, rivals that of Abe Lincoln's during the War between the States here in America...

In a sense it can be true - Lincoln centralized power in order to make USA a stronger, united nation. Same thing was done by De Gaulle when he created the Fifth Republic.

The democratic system which emerged in Russia after the breakup of Soviet Union was chaotic and organized in a haphazard way. First few years were filled with spontaneous grass-root activities what was terminated by the Yeltsin massacre of the Parliament at the request of his Western sponsors.

After that the economical reforms were pushed against wishes of the population - the national assetts were distributed among organized crime, corrupt officials and Western "investors". This was proclaimed by the Western corporate media as the triumph of democracy because it enabled Yugoslavia style breakup and looting of Russia.

The NATO war on Serbia followed by Islamic invasion of Dagestan was a wake up call for Russians. Present leadership is RESTORING democracy following more solid and better adjusted strong presidential model similar to the De Gaulle design of the Fifth Republic.

Those who think that more decentralisation/directness is always better for democracy (BTW, in many democratic countries local executives are appointed by the central government, even without approval of local legislature as Putin's plan intends) do not understand the basic principles of republican system.

The ideal according to the radical decentralists would be a DIRECT democracy like in ancient Athens. Such system is possible ONLY in the very small society, (even in Athens only a minority of the men was allowed or able to vote on all issues). In a large country the large degree of delegated representation and centralisation is being forced by the necessities of political life. In multiethnic countries with local conflicts the strong central government is a must.

You can have centralised government with democracy and rule of law on one hand, and you can have corrupt local governments with local bullies and not much freedom.

Russia has to find her own way - foreign "friends" and advisors will follow foreign interests only as they did during "privatization" after Yeltsin "democratic" massacre of Duma.

475 posted on 09/23/2004 6:32:06 AM PDT by A. Pole (Madeleine Albright:"We are the indispensable nation. We stand tall. We see further into the future.")
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To: jb6
"Which Red Army? The one surrounded by NATO in Europe, Central Asia and Caucusis? US spends more on defense then the rest of the world combined. We've hit more countries in the past 10 years then anyone else and are in 120+ countries and you are paranoid of the Red Army? Wow, talk about delusions."

You are worried about NATO? You live in this country, then thank the LORD we still spend on defense else we would be no better than Russia.

Those countries we have "hit" in the past 10 years could you please name them and their standing today.

Where have we built walls to keep people in, "IF" this nation is so evil then why is the one place upon this earth that everybody wants to come here, especially terrorists?


The one thing that separates this nation from alllll others and the liberals are .ell bent on removing is "RIGHTS given by the CREATOR no man/government can take.

From its founding this nation recognized the CREATOR and since that day liberal/communists have made it their life's work to removed that and take for themselves the "RIGHT" to give and take rights. Under communism the motto is "we are gods".
476 posted on 09/23/2004 6:38:45 AM PDT by Just mythoughts
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To: GIJoel
Most honest people who are confronted new and startling information look into the matter before opening their mouth and inserting foot

Problem is: what you confront most people with is not new or startling but disproven conspiratorial junk. Do you still await the Russian/Soviet/Uliminati/Alien invasion on Y2K or is it now Y2K+10?

477 posted on 09/23/2004 6:43:47 AM PDT by jb6 (Truth = Christ)
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To: Askel5; Libertina; SJackson; dennisw
and even are unapologetic about bulldozing stupid young American women too stupid to leave the Palestinians to their plight.

Just FYI I live about 1/2 north of Rachel Corrie land. You don't know anything about these people. To dismiss her as a stupid young woman who thought she was helping out is to show your own ignorance.

I don't know where you live, but here in the Pacific Northwest, people like Rachel Corrie and her ilk are exactly the communists you and your friends keep looking for in all the wrong places.

It's the ultimate sadness in this group of yours, that the real enemy is probably here beneath your own noses and you think you have to go overseas and accuse a high-profile president and his bumbling secret service agents.

Financing HAMAS is not an overseas operation.

478 posted on 09/23/2004 6:50:19 AM PDT by MarMema (next year in constantinople!)
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To: A. Pole
Present leadership is RESTORING democracy following more solid and better adjusted strong presidential model similar to the De Gaulle design of the Fifth Republic.

And following in the foorsteps of Italy, who also chose strong centralization and appointment of regional leaders to fight corruption and mafia.

479 posted on 09/23/2004 6:54:33 AM PDT by MarMema (next year in constantinople!)
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To: MarMema
I don't know where you live, but here in the Pacific Northwest, people like Rachel Corrie and her ilk are exactly the communists you and your friends keep looking for in all the wrong places.

You mean she wasn't Jewish? A non-Jewish liberal, I'm shocked.

480 posted on 09/23/2004 7:05:54 AM PDT by SJackson (Wars are caused by undefended wealth, Gen Douglas MacArthur)
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