Skip to comments.HOW KERRY QUIT VETERANS GROUP AMID DARK PLOT
Posted on 09/26/2004 11:58:24 AM PDT by 68-69TonkinGulfYachtClub
|Publication:The New York Sun;||Date:Mar 12, 2004;||Section:Front page;||Page:1|
When Talk Turned To Assassination He Exited, Vet Says
By THOMAS H. LIPSCOMB Special to the Sun
The anti-war group that John Kerry was the principal spokesman for debated and voted on a plot to assassinate politicians who supported the Vietnam War.
Mr. Kerry denies being present at the November 12-15, 1971, meeting in Kansas City of Vietnam Veterans Against the War, and says he quit the group before the meeting. But according to the current head of Missouri Veterans for Kerry, Randy Barnes, Mr. Kerry,who was then 27,was at the meeting, voted against the plot, and then orally resigned from the organization.
Mr. Barnes was present as part of the Kansas City host chapter for the 1971 meeting and recounted the incident in a phone interview with The New York Sun this week.
In addition to Mr. Barness recollection placing Mr. Kerry at the Kansas City meeting, another Vietnam veteran who attended the meeting, Terry Du-Bose, said that Mr. Kerry was there.
There are at least two other independent corroborations that the antiwar group Vietnam Veterans Against the War, of which Mr. Kerry was the most prominent national spokesman, considered assassinating American political leaders who favored the war.
Gerald Nicosias 2001 book Home To War reports that one of the key leaders of Vietnam Veterans Against the War, Scott Camil,proposed the assassination of the most hard-core conservative members of Congress,as well as any other powerful, intractable opponents of the antiwar movement.The book reports on the Kansas City meeting at which Mr.Camils plan was debated and then voted down.
Mr. Nicosias book was widely praised by reviewers as varied as General Harold Moore, author of We Were Soldiers; Gloria Emerson, who had been a New YorkTimes reporter during the Vietnam War, and leftist Howard Zinn. Mr. Kerry himself stated in a blurb on the cover that the book ties together the many threads of a difficult period. Mr. Kerry hosted a party for the book in the Hart Senate Office Building that was televised on C-SPAN.
Another source is an October 20,1992, oral history interview of Scott Camil on file at the University of Florida Oral History Archive.In it,Mr.Camil speaks of his plan for an alternative to Mr.Kerrys idea of symbolically throwing veterans medals over the fence onto the steps of the Capitol during the Dewey Canyon III demonstration in Washington in April of 1971.
My plan was that, on the last day we would go into the [congressional] offices we would schedule the most hardcore hawks for last and we would shoot them all, Mr. Camil told the Oral History interviewer. I was serious.
In a phone interview with the Sun this week, Mr. Camil did not dispute either the account in the Nicosia book or in the oral history.He said he plans to accept an offer by the Florida Kerry organization to become active in Mr. Kerrys presidential campaign. Campaign aides to Mr. Kerry invited Mr.Camil to a meeting for the senator in Orlando last week, but they did not meet directly.
Mr. Camil was known to colleagues in the anti-war movement as Scott the Assassin. Mr. Camil told The New York Sun he got the name in Vietnam for sneaking down to the Vietnamese villages at night and killing people.
According to the Nicosia book and interviews with VVAW members who were involved, at theVietnamVeterans Against the War Kansas City leadership conference, Mr. Camil tried to put his plan into effect. He called together eight to 10 Marines to organize something he called The Phoenix Project. The original Phoenix Project during the Vietnam War was an attempt to destroy the Viet Cong leadership by assassination. Mr. Camils Phoenix Project planned to execute the Southern senatorial leadership that was financing the Vietnam War. Senators like John Stennis, Strom Thurmond, and John Tower were his targets, according to Mr. Camil. They were to be killed during the Senate Christmas recess the following month.
After an attempt to parcel out the hit jobs required to kill the senators, Mr. Camils plan was presented to all the chapter coordinators present and the VVAW leadership. Mr. Nicosias book recounts, What Camil sketched was so explosive that the coordinators feared lest government agents even hear of it. So they decamped to a church on the outskirts of town with the intention of debating the plan in complete privacy.When they got to the church, however, they found that the government was already on to them; their debugging expert uncovered microphones hidden all over the place. An instantaneous decision was made to move again to Common Ground, a Mennonite hall used by homeless vets as a crash pad.
Camil was deadly serious, brilliant, and highly logical, Mr. Nicosia told the Sun.
The plan was voted down. Theres a difference of opinion as to how narrow the margin was.
The claims of Mr. Kerrys involvement in the assassination discussions in Kansas City have apparently not been previously reported.
The most recent book that focuses on Mr. Kerrys relations with his fellow Vietnam veterans, Douglas Brinkleys Tour of Duty, reports the events as follows: In a November 10 letter housed at the VVAW papers in Madison,Wisconsin, Kerry quit, politely noting he had been proud to serve in the national organization. His reason was straightforward: personality conflicts and differences in political philosophy. In two days,VVAW was meeting in Kansas City and he would be a noshow.
But in a footnote, Mr. Brinkley acknowledges,I could not locate Kerrys November 10 VVAW resignation letter supposedly housed at the Wisconsin archives. The quote I used comes directly from Andrew E. Hunts essential The Turning: A History of Vietnam Veterans Against the War (1999).
When asked by the Sun who told him Mr. Kerry was no-show at Kansas City, Mr. Brinkley replied, Senator Kerry. Mr. Brinkley also stated that Mr. Kerry did not have a personal copy of the resignation letter either.
But in an interview with the Sun, the essential historian Mr. Brinkley relied on as his source, Andrew E. Hunt, said I never stated that there was a letter of resignation, or even implied in my book that I saw one. I never could find one in the archives in Wisconsin. I dont know how Brinkley got the idea that I had. I never could figure out when Kerry resigned. When asked about Mr. Brinkleys statement that Mr. Kerry didnt have a copy of the resignation letter either, Mr. Hunt said, I dont know about that. I never could get an interview with Senator Kerry. But I never saw anyone who saves things the way Kerry does.
Whether or not there was a letter of resignation dated November 10 is obviously important, since it predates the Kansas City assassination discussions by two days.
Mr. Camil said he did not recall whether Mr. Kerry was at the Kansas City meeting nor did he recall whether he had discussed his assassination plan with Mr. Kerry.
But Mr. Barnes, the head of the Missouri Veterans for Kerry, said, I dont think there was a letter of resignation. He just said he was resigning after the vote.
Clearly there is considerable confusion about the time of Mr. Kerrys resignation.According to Mr. Nicosia,He resigned from the executive committee after a spectacular argument with VVAW leader Al Hubbard at the July national leadership meeting in St Louis.
But on behalf of the John Kerry campaign, spokesman David Wade told the Sun yesterday that Mr. Kerry resigned from Vietnam Veterans Against the War sometime in the summer of 1971 after the August meeting in St. Louis, which Kerry did not attend.
Mr.Wade also said,Kerry was not at the Kansas City meeting.
Two-thirds of the American troops in Vietnam at the height of American commitment in 1969 had already been withdrawn in the Vietnamization policy in effect at the time of the VVAW Kansas City conference in November 1971. When asked recently by the Sun why the assassinations still seemed necessary, Mr. Camil replied: The war was still going on. We had to stop it.
MistyCA asked me to post this for her
She has additional data.
Thanks for the ping! Last night I was working on the section of my article which deals with this. I would be interested in any additional data.
When Talk Turned To Assassination He Exited, Vet Says
They probably had resignation documents ready to go, but the flap over CBS memos made them realize that passing off a fake, post dated resignation letter might not work.
So is it possible that he never did quit, and is still a member?
In an effort to connect a few dots between Kerry's anti-war activity, Scott Camil and BILL BURKETT, I have been doing some research and come up with the following:
First of all, someone made some great connections in the following article on the Galley Slaves....
Now go one step further.
Scott Camil is active in VVAWAI (Vietnam Veterans Against the War Anti-Imperialism). You can google that group up and see the connections to Communism, but of more interest at this point is the letter they wrote to Soldiers in Iraq in an effort to call them to Conscience against the war in Iraq.
One of the signatories of this letter is none other than BILL BURKETT.
Not in the mainstream media, certainly, but it has often been discussed on FreeRepublic.
As yet there has been no evidence that Kerry actually took part in the discussions. But contrary to his denials, he attended the meeting. And he permitted the NY Times to continually speak about him as an officer of the group after he pretends to have quit.
At the very least, kerry did not inform authorities that he knew of a plot to kill senators.
Connecting the dots between VVAWAI, SCOTT CAMIL and BILL BURKETT
I think so.
In 1973 Stennis was almost fatally wounded by two gunshots after being mugged outside his Washington home.
I have the same questions. Why didn't this d--khead report the assasination supporters?
John Kerry has been on the wrong side of so many issues...
Kerry continued as spokesman after the meeting, and never publicly renounced the VVAW. Also, I believe he was still in the Naval Reserve when he attended the meeting. This means that as a member of the US Armed Services, he attended a meeting in which assassination of US government officials was discussed. Further, it is clear from the context that these assassinations were part of an attempt to defeat the US Military during a time of war. He never disclosed this information to his superiors. Isn't there a term for this?
While I am not certain of this, I have read that he resigned fron the executive commitee,but was still a member of VVAW after this
Interesting also is the fact that Del Sandusky, the Swiftboat vet who has been most in support of Kerry, and he lives in Gainesville, Florida. How connected is he to Scott Camil??
So moi Kerry quit before he voted to kill US Senators.
Are you all still in Pajamas? ;^)
Article about Sandusky in Gainesville event (recent)
Article about the Gainesville 8
Interesting blog work....
I am!!! I love my jammies!
>>>>>In a phone interview with the Sun this week, Mr. Camil did not dispute either the account in the Nicosia book or in the oral history.He said he plans to accept an offer by the Florida Kerry organization to become active in Mr. Kerrys presidential campaign. Campaign aides to Mr. Kerry invited Mr.Camil to a meeting for the senator in Orlando last week, but they did not meet directly. <<<<<<<<<<
So we are having an Attempted Assassin join the Kerry Presidential campaign??????Whoaaaaaaaaaaaa
A variant of this story has been used by so many Vietnam Veteran wannabes it is pathetic. The idea of sneaking off alone at night and killing people is just laughable if you even have the remotest idea of the realities of Vietnam. If he killed civilians he is a first class war criminal. If he killed VC he would only have done it once, maybe twice and then they would have waited for him. I'd like to see this dirtbag produce one single veteran he knew in Vietnam who can back up his claims. There was a book written in the early 70's called 365 DAYS and it was written by an army doctor who treated VIetnam veterans in physical rehabilitation. It was full of stories like this and it turned out they were all lies the veterans told him for entertainment.
Great debate question for Pres. Bush to ask Kerry:
Sen. Kerry, was Sen. Stennis on the list of senators to be assasinated by your group, VVAW?
So moi Kerry quit before he voted to kill US Senators.
I think that was Kerry's original
The FBI files showed he resigned AFTER he voted on assassinations.
Thanks, Misty. Freepers are relentless researchers.
Aside from the VVAWAI letter Call to Conscience which both CAMIL and BURKETT signed, among others, is there anything else to directly link Camil and Burkett? The noose could be getting tighter.......
If GW had done this, the MSM would tar and feather him and run him out of town on a rail. However, since it's Botoxboy, plotting to assassinate senators is perfectly okay and won't ever be mentioned in polite society...and certainly not come up in a presidential debate. Well, the FBI says he was there, and he's already on record as having lied about it. And there's his military and medical records. Somebody knows if he got a dishonorable discharge, later cleaned up by Carter. Too bad they won't come forward.
If this organization is still active and sending letters to our troops in Iraq asking them to quit this war, why haven't the authorities jailed any of them? This is treason, we are at war, these people are committing sedition in time of war. They should be shot.
Go to the VVAWAI website and follow the links. It will make you sick. Check out one of their links for Communism 2000.
I wonder whether Mary Mapes has been working on this story for five years.
From VVAWAI site, go to Call to Conscience. On the left side of the page is Veteran signatories. Some of the names are of interest besides Camil and Burkett.
Check out the Speaker list too. It has a list of organizations which Scott Camil is tied to today.
Kerry may have resigned from the national Executive Board, but he remained active with the organization well into 1972 and maybe into 1973.
Maybe somebody will. I'm still optimistic that the Swift Vets have the information and are holding it for an "October surprise".
If you go to VVAWAI website, check out the Blue Triange network. Interesting stuff.
|Publication:The New York Sun;||Date:Mar 22, 2004;||Section:Front page;||Page:1|
KANSAS MEETING AT ISSUE
By THOMAS H. LIPSCOMB Special to the Sun
A Vietnam veteran who said he remembers John Kerry participating in a 1971 Kansas City meeting at which an assassination plot was discussed says an official with the Kerry presidential campaign called him this month and pressured him to change his story.
The veteran, John Musgrave, says he was called twice by the head of Veterans for Kerry, John Hurley, while a reporter for the Kansas City Star worked on a follow-up piece to a New York Sun article about the November 1971 meeting of Vietnam Veterans Against the War at which a plot to kill U.S. senators was voted down. Asked by The New York Sun if he felt pressured, Mr. Musgrave said, In the second call I did. Mr. Musgrave said Mr. Hurley said Mr. Kerry had told him he was definitely not in Kansas City.
According to Mr. Musgrave, Mr. Hurley said, Why dont you refresh your memory and call that reporter back?
A spokesman for Mr. Kerrys presidential campaign, David Wade, last week issued a statement to the Sun, following a week of denials, that said we accept Mr. Kerrys presence in Kansas City as a historical footnote.
By then, the recollections of six witnesses, along with minutes and FBI records, placed Mr. Kerry at the Kansas City meeting.
But the news of the calls from the campaign to Mr. Musgrave may move the episode from what the campaign is describing as a historical footnote to a matter that involves the contemporary behavior of Mr. Kerry and his campaign.
Mr. Musgrave said he received three Purple Hearts in Vietnam. After the third Purple Heart for wounds by three 7.62 rounds, one to the jaw and two to the left chest, Mr. Musgrave refused the standard release from further service in the combat zone offered Marines with three Purple Hearts and tried to return to his unit, he said.
But because of the extent of his injuries he was retired from the Marines with full disability and sent home, he said.
Mr. Musgrave said, I told Hurley it was my first meeting as a state officer of the VVAW, and I remember John being there. I remember what I remember.
When asked whom he is supporting in the presidential election, Mr. Musgrave replied, I am undecided. But I am sure not voting for some guy who called me a liar.
Mr. Hurley did not return calls for comment for this article.
Another related episode in which the Kerry campaign had to handle questions about Vietnam Veterans Against the War involves a statement by Mr. Kerry himself.
At a Capitol Hill press conference on March 11, 2004, Mr. Kerry was asked by a reporter if he thought his credibility had been affected by his close association with Al Hubbard, a key VVAW colleague of Mr. Kerrys who had appointed him to the leadership of the Vietnam Veterans Against the War.
Mr. Hubbard claimed to be a wounded Air Force officer who had served at Danang during the Vietnam War. He appeared with Mr. Kerry many times, including the Meet the Press interview after Mr.Kerrys Senate testimony about American war crimes in Vietnam.
But Mr. Hubbard was never in Vietnam, was never wounded, and was not an officer, as subsequent research and Mr. Kerry himself have pointed out.
Mr. Kerry answered this month that he had not spoken to Mr.Hubbard since the week of April 19, 1971.
Yet the Kerry campaign now apparently accepts that Mr. Kerry was at the November 12 to 15, 1971,VVAW meeting. Mr. Musgrave said he remembers that at that meeting, Mr. Kerry challenged Mr. Hubbards continuing to maintain his false claims to being an Air Force officer wounded at Danang.
Hubbard sort of sat there with his eyes downcast and Mike Oliver really did all the arguing for him, Mr. Musgrave said. And suddenly Hubbard got up and said he was having an ulcer attack and had to get to New York immediately to see his doctor and ran out of the room.You would think we didnt have any doctors or hospitals in Kansas City.
In addition, the New York Times reported on an August 29, 1971, fundraising party for the Vietnam Veterans Against the War at which Mr. Kerry and Al Hubbard, another veteran, explained some of the aims of the organization.John Kerry's Role as a Vietnam Anti-War Activist Poses Challenges to His Campaign
|Publication:The New York Sun;||Date:Mar 15, 2004;||Section:National;||Page:4|
Group Debated and Voted Down Plan To Assassinate Senators
By THOMAS H. LIPSCOMB Special to the Sun
Another witness has come forward to attest that John Kerry was at a November 1971 meeting of Vietnam Veterans Against the War at which the group debated and voted down a plan to assassinate senators who supported the Vietnam War.
A Kerry campaign spokesman, David Wade, has said Mr. Kerry did not attend the Kansas City meeting, and Kerry biographer Douglas Brinkley has said Mr. Kerry told him he was a noshow.
Kerry may have resigned shortly after that meeting or at the meeting recalled the VVAW Kansas State coordinator at the time, John Musgrave, in an interview that was published Saturday in the Kansas City Star. Mr. Musgrave is the third VVAW member at the time that has been named as seeing Mr. Kerry at Kansas City. Mr. Musgrave specifically remembered Mr. Kerrys attendance and his speaking against the murder plot against the senators.
The Star cited the national director of Veterans for Kerry, a former VVAW member, John Hurley, as saying: I think he is confusing the St. Louis and Kansas City meetings.
But if Mr. Hurley is acknowledging that Mr. Kerry was present at the earlier St. Louis meeting, he is disagreeing with the Kerry spokesman, Mr.Wade, and calling into doubt a recent statement by Mr. Kerry.
At a Capitol Hill press conference Thursday, Mr. Kerry was asked by a reporter if he thought his credibility had been affected by his close association with Al Hubbard, a key VVAW colleague of Mr. Kerrys who had appointed him to the leadership of Vietnam Veterans Against the War.
Mr. Hubbard claimed to be a wounded Air Force officer who had served at Danang during the Vietnam War. He appeared with Mr. Kerry many times, including the Meet the Press interview after Mr. Kerrys Senate testimony about American war crimes in Vietnam. But Mr. Hubbard was never in Vietnam, was never wounded, and was not an officer, as subsequent research and Mr.Kerry himself have pointed out.
Mr.Kerry answered he had not spoken to Mr. Hubbard since the week of April 19, 1971. But in the New York Times of August 30, 1971, reporter Enid Nemy, covering an East Hampton fund-raising party for the Vietnam Veterans Against the War, states: Later, Mr. Kerry and Al Hubbard, another veteran, explained some of the aims of the organization .
Those present included journalists Jimmy Breslin and Peter Maas, Bruce Jay Friedman, Tom Paxton, and Patricia Kennedy Lawford.
In separate interviews with The New York Sun, both VVAW member Terry DuBose and Kerry biographer Mr. Brinkley have confirmed Mr. Kerrys presence at the July St. Louis steering committee meeting of the VVAW.
Gerald Nicosia, author of the 2001 book Home to War, also writes that Mr. Kerry was at that meeting. In a memorable account, Mr. Nicosia said Mr. Kerry resigned from the executive committee after a spectacular argument with Mr. Hubbard.Kerry made a long speech punctuated at frequent intervals by the demand: Who is Al Hubbard? and challenged him to prove he was a Vietnam veteran. According to the book, Mr. Hubbard freaked out and screamed insults at Mr. Kerry.
In the Kansas City Star account, one of the three veterans who has placed Mr. Kerry at the Kansas City meeting, Randy Barnes, first was quoted as saying Mr. Kerry was in Kansas City, which is what he had stated in his interview with the Sun.
According to the Star, upon reflection later in the day [Barnes stated] that he could not be absolutely certain that Kerry was in Kansas City for the meeting.
Terry DuBose, who initially remembered a great deal, began having failures of memory on a third call. And Scott Camil, who in his interview with the Sun could not recall whether Mr. Kerry was at the Kansas City meeting, suddenly remembered in talking with the Star several days later that Mr. Kerry was not.
In a March 13, 2004, story, the New York Times cited concern among Democrats about careless utterances of a fatigued, or undisciplined candidate, but Mr. Wade reassured that every statement he made we stand by.
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