Posted on 09/27/2004 4:17:05 AM PDT by snopercod
President Bush has declared a state of major disaster in the storm-ravaged southern U.S. state of Florida, hit by four strong hurricanes since last month.
"Major disaster" status makes Florida eligible for federal emergency funds and relief assistance for residents and businesses. Mr. Bush acted late Sunday after Hurricane Jeanne swept over Florida's central Atlantic coast, lashing the same area raked by another hurricane (Frances) three weeks earlier.
Hurricane Jeanne's winds and torrential rains killed six people in the United States and added to an already heavy toll of property damage. But the storm's worst effects were felt in Haiti, where more than 1,500 people died last week in floods and mudslides.
The National Hurricane Center says Jeanne's winds are no longer blowing at hurricane strength. The tropical storm is moving north toward the states of Georgia and South Carolina Monday.
Four hurricanes and one lesser storm have killed more than 120 people in the United States since mid-August. Including last week's casualties in Haiti, more than 1,600 people have been killed in the Caribbean during the same period.
What kind of aid do you, personally, need that you can't pay for yourself?
You ought to be ashamed! There are literally thousands in Florida and elsewhere who have been affected by these storms to the point of having lost literally everything they own.
Right now, I have a friend staying with me who had to go to ground with me because of Hurricane Jeanne. He is a volunteer FEMA inspector, sent here from another state to do damage assessments for the government. While there is the usual fraud attempts, for the most part he is having to deal with shredded lives, and it has affected him deeply. The tales he has related to us (in the dark while the eye of Jeanne went overhead and tried to rip our house apart) was a true window into the reality of the past and current disasters. Of course, you had no idea the governement was dealing with 10 major disasters here in the states currently, either directly from the storms or the floods they produced?
Before you put on your look-down-the-nose, it's-all-Bush's-fault and Bush-is-only-buying-votes attitude, you'd better go scuff some shoe leather and visit some of these affected areas before you go popping off again! Ignorance is curable, stupidity is forever. Which are you, Snopercod?
He has hopefully recalled what happened to his father in 1992 after FEMA was seen as tardy and confused in their response to a major hurricane in Florida that year. I'd expect Kerry will try and pin the same tag on the president during the first debate in Miami (in spite of the debate's "foreign policy" focus) and I hope Dubya is prepared with a snappy (or "snippy") retort.
Anyone who has had their life shredded by a natural disaster would agree that expedient federal disaster aid is a Good Thing,
...and just where does that federal aid come from? I paid more in taxes last year, than the average person made... I also gave to charity, and politicians, voluntarily...
There was a conscious choice to live there. Federal Flood insurance should not exist!
As one of those obviously deranged folk, I happen to believe that we should not reward those who make bad choices. Living at or below sea level in the path of constant hurricanes is foolish. Florida is a nice place, but we should not be responsible for those folk, who are stupid enough to build in the path... (I seem to remember a Biblical injunction about "building on sand")
I think it is nice to help those in need, but this is just another entitlement! Your socialist views are duly noted! This is wealth distribution, at its core!
OK, so by your reasoning we should evacuate Florida and the entire east coast for that matter - Hurricanes.
Leave California - Earthquakes, Typhoons
Empty Texas, Tennessee, Okalahoma, and Kansas - Tornadoes
I could go on but I think/hope you get my point.
By my reasoning, we should not pay to build them back! Maybe I did not make it clear enough. The Gum't has NO PLACE rebuilding waterfront communities... or anyone else's property which is built in an area prone to natural disasters... These people knew where they were heading!
If I buy a new car for my son, or daughter, and he/she goes out and crashes it on the dragstrip, should I buy him/her a new car?
IMO, Americans can live wherever they want, but they should not expect taxpayers to continue to pay for their desire to watch a sunset/sunrise over the waters... or just get away from the dirty cities...
You sound like another socialsist, and it, too, is duly noted! You can call me crazy, if you want, but I believe folk should be responsible for their actions...
Funny how this website has some that believe that "provide for the general welfare" means that everyone should have a high-paying job, yet others believe it to mean that victims of natural disasters are s-out-of-luck.
Name one area of the U.S. that is not subject to natural disaster, and how you propose accomodating the entire poulation of the U.S. when it moves there.
The Gum't does have a mandate for the first two on the list, but where is your justification for the licensing and codes?
States have the right to do those things, but the Fedrool Gum't has no place in local business...
Disaster relief is admirable, and I am sure it is nice to have someone come up to your home with a check for $1000's of RELIEF funds, but where do those funds derive from? I didn't tell them they could spend my money on someone else's beach house...I would rather give the funds to the ARC or Salvation Army... The Gum't only wants the control over my money... so they can maintain their powers!
Disaster aid is redistribution! Redistribution is socialist! I am not saying these people aren't in dire straights, but they put themselves there! Why should we help them again, and again?
Well, say you're an electrical contractor. Wouldn't you want to know that your house in Illinois and your cabin in Wisconsin are wired the same way before you start fixing either one up?
I hate to think what would happen to you if something really bad happened.
Oh, and I drove down to Florida to help a friend after Ivan. He lost his roof and all his belongings got wet. He didn't even think of calling FEMA, in fact, he refused. He just dealt with it, like Americans used to deal with things - by their own wits and their own resources.
But some Floridiots prefer to whine and scream for others to fix their problems for them. You chose to live in hurricane country, now deal with it.
Are you calling Thomas Sowell a deranged libertarian?
What a ridiculous "straw man" argument!
In new Orleans, they have built a wall around the city, to keep the sea out. The city is below sea level, and it floods periodically (they thought it would happen this time)... I read a book a number of years ago, about a developer who built a condo on a beach in FL. He knew it would not prevail against the storms, but it didn't matter, since he had his profits, and the gum't would make it good again!
I own property in four states. NM is wide open, AZ is open, NC is open, and WV is open... These is so much good land available, but people like to watch those sunrises, and sussets, across the waters...
IMO, you are confusing the emotional side of these folks travails, with the practical side, which defies rational thinking!
Natural disasters are a way of life everywhere. Prepare for them, and certainly, don't build on the beach, or a faultline! But, don't expect us to pay for your folly!
ATFQ! Illinois does not necessarily have the same requirements, as WI.
You are totally off topic, and it does not add to this discussion...
There is NO justification for GUM'T payments, to be used in rebuilding, for those in the hurricane/flood zones! They should take their lumps, and rely on themselves, and their family, not the gum't!
The wolf said, to the pigs, "I'll huff and I'll puff, and I'll blow your house down"... and he did take down two!
The best built house is still standing!
What kind of heartless so and so are you?. And where do you live? Don;t tell me its California because you sound like the type that would be screaming the loudest after the next major quake out there.
If theres one time where the gov't is handy its when there is a disaster. The sooner these areas recover the better for all of us, because if they don't it will pinch the economy, or even worse.
People like you ought to have the hell whipped out of them.
"You sound like another socialsist,"
I'm not.
But more to the point you sidestepped my argument. I agree we should not have to pick up the tab every time a beachside house gets blown away but by your logic the folks who live in Orlando, which is at least 50 miles inland should be SOL as well.
P.S.
Your analogy sucks.
Very poor choice of words, regarless of intent.
It's not a strawman argument to ask you to identify a section of the U.S. that is not prone to natural disaster, since you appear to be fixated upon the notion that folks should not build homes in areas that are prone to natural disaster.
What a fool you are...the port in N. O. handles more cargo tonnage than any other port in the country. Last year, there was a ship wreck at the mouth of the river, jamming ship traffic. Prices started to rise all across the country because of the bottle neck. If N.O. damaged because of an inevitable storm, we'll all be sorry. Look jerk, there are times when people need help, and lets hope its not some freak ideologue like you thats in charge when they do.
If you want a surefire way to make sure you don't have any generators at any cost, use "price-gouging" laws. Any basic economic knowledge would allow you to know that "price-gouging law" is a pretty-sounding term for price celings which always result in shortages. I could go into the whole supply and demand aspect, but if you think it through, you'll get it. To use a John Kerry analogy, people like you and others on this thread are "Summer Conservatives". Sticking to one's principles isn't easy. Using your brain instead of your heart in difficult situations is also difficult. However, if the free-market and other conservative ideas are truly the best way to serve people, they will serve in times of crises, as well.
"Oh, and I drove down to Florida to help a friend after Ivan. He lost his roof and all his belongings got wet. He didn't even think of calling FEMA, in fact, he refused. He just dealt with it, like Americans used to deal with things - by their own wits and their own resources."
Why do I not believe this. Anyone who went down and saw the damage from Ivan would never be so cruel and heartless.
P.S. Your analogy sucks.-dad2
Why should Orlando people's property be rebuilt by taxpayer money? What is the difference to my anaogy. If my child makes a wrong decision to race on the dragstrip, and loses his/her car in a crash, why should I replace it. He/she made the choice to race! He/she can buy their own new car!
You must think that I should rebuild anyone who makes a wrong decision... just because they had a loss!
Nobody gave me back the money I lost in the stock market. They haven't figured out a way to declare it a disaster, but more folk suffered long-term losses, by the stock market bebacle, and nothing has ever been done to redistribute that wealth which was lost! It stayed in the hands that stole it!
As a Christian, it is my duty to help the destitute, and poor, when they are in need. It says nothing about giving my earnings away to foolishness!
Actually, you're probably just a troll, trying to get a rise from someone on the board, and I bit. Shame on me for doing so...! With God's help, I take care of my own, on my own. However I don't begrudge help to those less fortunate who really have a need, whether it comes from me, the church, or the government...
It sounds to me like you got burned in the market crash and you are miserable about that and want others to join you in that misery.
I cannot combat that level of bitterness and will simply leave you to it.
Show me where it says in this little article that FEMA is going to come down here and give money away. FEMA does much more than setup shop and write checks.
You obviously don't have a clue as to what needs to be done after a hurricane.
Thanks for calling names, this morning. You are wrong. The Gum't does have an obligation to insure the movement of commerce. It does not have an obligation to rebuild the "French Quarter"!
I cannot think of anything LESS Conservative, than requiring others to help you to rebuild...
I feel for those folk. My birth home is Wilmington, NC. Hurricane Hazel hit there in 1954, when I was seven.
After the storm, we all helped to pick up the debris, and carry supplies to help repair, and rebuild. I would do it again, for my family and friends. We did not live along the waterways. We knew better!
When I bought waterfront land for myself, I looked for a high bluff! I have built a home (cabin) which will withstand whatever comes down the river!
You guys are statists, and socialists, when you think it is the gum'ts responsibility to give these folks our money... That is not callousness, just truth! This is no different than "earned income tax credits", which give (some of ) my tax refund to those who did NOT pay any taxes! Many of these, are suffering, surely, but that is because they made a bad choice of locale!
Pick up your things, and leave, or fix up and shut up! You need to do it on your own!
Snope and a few others have exposed themselves for being the soulless persons that they are. It is a rare person indeed that has not at one time or another benefited from some government handout. Snope and friends will not talk about that. I have seen such people before, they are a lonely lot as they do fit well into society.
You obviously don't have a clue... about my background... I have been through hurricanes, and lived to tell and repair!
I have had experience with FEMA, following a hurricane-residue flood on the Shenandoah a couple of years ago. I did not take funds from them. I was offered more than $35,000, but was able to effect repairs for less than $15k!
There was a line of folk waiting for "immediate relief", and gum't checks were issued for thousands of dollars to EACH! I had constant visits from FEMA agents, trying to get me to take their monies... (they hq about twenty miles from me at Mt Weather, VA...)
FEMA is just another giveaway program, which replaced our old standby... our family and neighbors! The difference is that it is a good political tool!
Sounds great in a perfect ivory tower kind of world that never existed to begin with.
The practical fact is that disasters have been a basic problem since the beginning of time. If people had to start over from scratch without any help, it could set them and the country back for years.
I don't believe that it is the governments responsibility to rebuild areas after disasters. I just think it makes sense in the reality of the times. New Orleans is a good example. The port there is vital to the nation. If it is destroyed, we will all suffer bigtime.
Apologies for the name calling, but as a resident of the Gulf Coast I am appalled at people like you that use a great misfortune to spew ivory tower idealisms when really you are probably a very frustrated nobody.
The monies I lost in the market are nothing, but money... I made up for it, buying XEROX at $4, and selling for 12, then repeating it thrice more, when it rose and fell last year. I bought Apple Computer at $12, and have watched it grow... It is now around $36-37. I still have money left to buy some others, if I desire...
Emotions aside, where do you get any idea that "disaster aid" is a role for the Fedrool gum't? FEMA's $$$ is just another form of welfare, and income redistribution. That is socialism, not conservatism...
My intent is not to denigrate the needs of those affected, but to define where the root cause lies! If you build where you should not build, and you lose, you should lose!
As a Floridian, I'm on the same boat with you in this argument.
Because once we rely on government to take care of us, then government owns us.
Nevertheless, it is a political neccessity for W to get involved here in the biggest way he can, considering the mindset of modern America.
Yep, you nailed it! I have lost all common sense, and have no clue about life!
Name-calling and casting aspersions win you a lot of points with some folk, but you just reveal you own ignorance, to most. You are spouting emotion. I have a great deal of symathy, and from past experince, empathy, but I still think it is socialist! I guess that is what it takes to be a "conservative" these days!
I guess it is OK, with you guys criticizing my position, to make the Fedrool Gum't be all things to all people... According to you, lets just give them some more money and see how well they can handle it!
I do not agree. I have seen little I can commend, as money well-spent by them!
Wait a minute, why should MY tax money be used to rebuild somebody else's port? -MTO
I did not state, nor imply, that YOUR tax money rebuild anything. I talked about getting a blockage undone... without metamucil!
Your constant rants against bizness, and folks with a little nest egg, reveals that you just may be jealous. It sure sounds that way!
I have made my money by hard work, and sharp wit. Anybody else can do the same. I am sorry you haven't made yours yet, but don't think I am supposed to support your bad decisions! "If you build it, they will come" (houses/hurricanes)... Move away, if you don't want to rebuild! I just don't want to be forced to pay for it!!!
Save it. I've just been through three of them in a little more than a month. And my folks are from Logan so I know about floods. Half of WV population should be relocated according to your rules.
And you were able to repair your own house for less than half of what the gov't offered you. And I'm sure you did it with no ice, water or electricity from the gov't. Whoopee.
And while agree government should play as little a role as possible in our lives, just what role do you believe it should play in a disaster? In my mind, that's one of the few situations government should get involved.
Think you're man enough?
From the FEMA website: The following list describes the types of assistance available through Individuals And Households Program [IHP] and what each provides.
As I interpret this, if one has no insurance, the taxpayers will pay to repair or replace his/her home. Am I wrong?
I never said they wouldn't do this. I said, where does it say it in the article.
""Major disaster" status makes Florida eligible for federal emergency funds and relief assistance for residents and businesses. "
FEMA does much more than just dole out cash. Federal emergency funds help pay for debris removal, security, ice, water, bridge loans, etc. Or as (most) conservatives say: To help people help themselves. That's what I read in this article.
However, it quickly degenerated into depicting residents of states that receive federal aid as a bunch of panty wastes who can't get off their asses long enough to run down the bank and withdraw the funds necessary to put a new roof on their house.
...but we disagree. IMO, you just want someone else to kiss your booboo... If your neighbors are hurting, make them some soup, and grab a hammer... and don't expect me to feel too sorry.
Your rants agaist bizness are confusing. Big businesses have always been pretty well exempt from the things that us commoners must do, but small business is the backbone that hires most people, and makes most of the new wealth...
Bad decisions? Move away? To where?
Look at a map.
Who says you have to stay in FL? Folk used to live in the "dust bowls" of the midwest, and figured out they needed to go somewhere else... when they could no longer live there! Your neighbors, and you, are all asking someone else to make up for your personal bad decisions... Location is just part of it. It is your responsibility to make sure your house is adequate for the elements which it must withstand. That is just common sense...
" Once upon a time there were three little pigs and the time came for them to leave home and seek their fortunes.
Before they left, their mother told them " Whatever you do , do it the best that you can because that's the way to get along in the world.
The first little pig built his house out of straw because it was the easiest thing to do.
The second little pig built his house out of sticks. This was a little bit stronger than a straw house.
The third little pig built his house out of bricks.
One night the big bad wolf, who dearly loved to eat fat little piggies, came along and saw the first little pig in his house of straw. He said "Let me in, Let me in, little pig or I'll huff and I'll puff and I'll blow your house in!"
"Not by the hair of my chinny chin chin", said the little pig.
But of course the wolf did blow the house in and ate the first little pig.
The wolf then came to the house of sticks.
"Let me in ,Let me in little pig or I'll huff and I'll puff and I'll blow your house in" "Not by the hair of my chinny chin chin", said the little pig. But the wolf blew that house in too, and ate the second little pig.
The wolf then came to the house of bricks.
" Let me in , let me in" cried the wolf
"Or I'll huff and I'll puff till I blow your house in"
"Not by the hair of my chinny chin chin" said the pigs.
Well, the wolf huffed and puffed but he could not blow down that brick house.
But the wolf was a sly old wolf and he climbed up on the roof to look for a way into the brick house.
The little pig saw the wolf climb up on the roof and lit a roaring fire in the fireplace and placed on it a large kettle of water.
When the wolf finally found the hole in the chimney he crawled down and KERSPLASH right into that kettle of water and that was the end of his troubles with the big bad wolf.
The next day the little pig invited his mother over . She said "You see it is just as I told you. The way to get along in the world is to do things as well as you can." Fortunately for that little pig, he learned that lesson. And he just lived happily ever after!
Did you ever think of moving somewhere else? I guess it is easier to accept the gum't money, and stay for it to happen again!
Hurricanes are predictable. They are disasters because fools build where they should not! That includes in the middle of a dry stream bed!!
I would encourage others to do the same. They have no "flood insurance". Most don't even have decent food right now!
Our benevolent master will provide all we need in FLA!!!
pageonetoo, I just read your profile and methinks I smell some hypocracy. Retired Navy? Talk about government largess. Inflation adjusted pensions, dozens of subsidies for everything from car insurance to food at commissaries, and probably lots more gov. subsidized goodies that don't exist in the private sector. Seems to me that possibly have your hands in the gov. till much deeper than any storm victim. What are you worried about...competition?? Oh but wait, you probably deserve all that special treatment more than hurricane victims.
Be nice.
How many times do your taxpaying fellow citizens have to pay to put Floriduhidians back on their beaches?
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