It does appear Kerry unfolded some paper. However, so did President Bush if this image is to be believed. Looks like they just had several pages for taking notes.
Posted on 10/04/2004 3:29:40 PM PDT by GAGOPSWEEPTOVICTORY
It does appear Kerry unfolded some paper. However, so did President Bush if this image is to be believed. Looks like they just had several pages for taking notes.
I replayed the debate last night, and if it was a black pen he did NOT use it during the debate. He was writting with a white pen or pencile.
I've Democratic sites make something of that. Note that at the start of the LGF clip BUSH IS ALREADY AT THE PODIUM. He picks something up FROM THE PODIUM. It disappears for a second, then you can see IT IS A PEN, as he presses the top of it.
You are right, that's what it looks like now that you mentioned it
Check out post # 1251
http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/1234146/posts?q=1&&page=1101
Do you tell everyone who disagrees with you to leave the thread?
Is suggesting that this entire exercise is pointless, a hint that I'm batting for the other team?
Some of you people really disgust me sometimes. I've been on FR a year, today. I wonder how many more I'll have to stick around before a disagreement over tactics doesn't flush me out as a DU infiltrator. Jeez, Brit Hume himself is being accused of Democratic sympathies because he isn't pushing this issue. (There's at least one TWILIGHT ZONE episode about this sort of thing.)
Well, I think Brit has it right on this one. Nailing Kerry on his horrible record is what needs to be done. Zeroing him as anti-war extremist who now aspires to be our C-in-C, is what needs to be done. Pressing him for even a single detail of this Brilliant Secret Plan of his to end terrorism, wipe out world hunger, cure Parkinsons', and give every child on Earth a free puppy dog, is what needs to be done. Even if it's true that Kerry cheated in the debate -- and yes, it probably is -- the issue is D.O.A. The debate is over. The vast majority of the American people believe Kerry won it. No one outside of FR is going to listen to "BUT -- BUT -- BUT HE CHEATED!" It sounds like whining. It sounds like sour grapes. It sounds like the Democrats post-Election Day 2000. They didn't have a case; we do, but it's a no-win -- we know John Kerry's a cheater, but all we can do is what conservatives have always had to do in the face of a hostile media and an ignorant voting public: fight back twice as hard against him, on issues and points that will actually resonate with that public.
Somebody here more familiar with Zippo Boy's debating history has said that a large part of his debating strength comes from his ability to tell such flat-out, bald-faced, hubristic lies, with such a straight face and unapologetic manner, that it tricks his opponent into the position of saying, "You're lying!" -- a response that simply isn't acceptable to that too-large segment of the viewing audience that doesn't know any better. Likewise, Kerry cheated so openly and so brazenly in that first debate, because he knew that no credible attempt could be made to call him on it. He knew that the public would not view charges that he cheated in a favorable light. And he was right. The pursuit of this is so much spinning of wheels for us, and, ironically, could potentially harm Bush if any group were to seriously pursue it. Both campaigns know this.
-Dan
Please tell me he's holding a hot-dog ...
Sir, I am not calling you an idiot nor am I inferring that you are. All I am saying is that you think there are things more important than this cheating issue was. Fine, go work on those things. I think this issue is important enough to look into. There is nothing wrong with that either and the others and I that choose to do so should not have to scuffle with you for the right to do so. It is not hurting you or our mutual cause to look into this. Everyone will see/find a place where they can be of use now and then. I have done more than my share of get out the vote, and on election day I am using my personal Toyota Rav 4 to haul people to and from the polls, so please, if there is some specific thing you would like us to do, or you need help with something, by all means ask.....I am sure we will be more than glad to help, but please don't sit there and say do "something" on one hand and belittle us for doing what we are doing on the other.
Btw......I never said a thing about Brit being on the "other side", however it is possible that the DNC handed him video and he just accepted it at face value. Not saying that is what happened, just that in today's climate, it is a possibility.
AND, bottom line STILL IS....KERRY broke HIS OWN rules!! BUT, Bush followed them!!!
I agree with you both - it should be looked into further. However, I think Rush had it pegged when he said it wouldn't make much of a difference to the outcome of the debate.
The thread is about Kerry's using a cheat sheet. If that doesn't rise up your personal ladder of importance, then find something that does. But don't keep coming back to the thread to whine about it because "it makes us look bad" or "this isn't important enough". Its important enough to me and others on this thread to discuss it and that's all that matters. I see nothing in the posting rules that says we have to pass the "flux capacitor looks-good-to-others test" before we can post.
And yes, the fact that you are calling it pointless is a hint that you're batting for the other team. It puts you in the same position as all the disruptors that suddenly appear out of nowhere to try to stop people from looking at this issue. Its been my experience that when someone doesn't like something being investigated, its usually because they have something to hide.
Besides, if it is pointless to you, why contribute over and over? That only serves to resurrect the thread.
Reading your post for the 2nd time. Isn't it a sad day when calling someone for cheating, regardless how "insignificant" can be considered something that may be looked upon unfavorably? Isn't it a sad day when the liberals can use their attack/scream/whine/finger pointing tactics to always put a guilt trip on conservatives. Dang it, right is right and wrong is wrong.......PERIOD. This is not about a pen and paper. It is about character and attitude. Look at this, he cheated, was called on it. What was the first thing he did....through his minions...he LIED. Oops, they got the goods on me, that won't work, so, finally he admits its a black pen. Isn't that interesting. He brought a black pen, illegally, then used a white one.
HE, personally never said a word about it? He, the man that insists all the time that Bush say he's sorry!
In addition, there was to be no opening statement in the debate. Kerry got the 1st question, and what did he do? He turned it into an opening statement! Did Bush follow suit, no, he obeys the rules so he simply did what he was supposed to.
Dan:
What they said. If you don't like this thread, find one you do like. When someone mentions 'precious bandwidth' it raises a RED FLAG, as far as I'm concerned.
Whining won't get you anywhere. I'm new, I'd never seen your Flux Capacitor signature, you mimicked a poster of a few days ago with a different signature. I was expected to know that two grate-minds were using the same terminology? Imitation is the greatest form of flattery except when it's whining "poor us, we're doomed, the end is near, we've already failed, toss in the blanket, it's over, boo hoo.'
BAH, HUM BUG. It ain't over til the fat lady sings and I haven't sung yet!
Re 332:
If you're not happy with this thread, go find one you're happy with, that's all I'm saying.
How many bumper stickers are on your car? How many people have you registered to vote? How many friends have you lost over this Presidential race?
What's important to one person may not be important to another.
And protestations are suspect, anyway.
If I've offended you, I apologize. If I've hit a nerve, perhaps there's some truth to what I've said.
"As much as I would like to see this c***sucker guilty of cheating, it's time to move on & accept the fact that someone did a very good job of "doctoring" a video."
I have on my Dish dvr the real-time, non-doctored recording and while there is a question of what the object is beyond a reasonable doubt, there is no question that it is NOT a pen.
Due to the unfolding aspect coupled with Kerry's switching it around apparently to put it in a readable position, this Freeper's opinion is it was a piece of paper. I still have to go back to see the end when/if a Kerry flunky removes the contents on the lectern or not.
One side note: I recorded the debate from the C-SPAN feed and since Kerry was taller, his lectern was shorter. Since his lectern was shorter, the timer lights were clearly viewable for W but Kerry's timer lights were obscured by C-SPAN's title image (Presidential Debate, Miami)
Not saying it was deliberate but....it only gave half the picture.
Yes. It is. But that's the way it is, whether we like it or not. And all I'm saying is that when we start breaking down the timecode of the debate video, crawling all over each frame looking for a pen or a wadded-up piece of paper like people combing though the Zapruder film in search of shooters on the grassy knoll -- no matter how right we may be, it's still going to look completely insane to non-Freepers. That's why this kind of thing is a trap that the Democrats lay. They'd love for conservative groups, affiliated with the campaign or no, to mount a "John Kerry cheated" campaign. Because it would be no work at all for them to frame that in the minds of many as an embittered, sour-grapes response to the outcome of a debate that a very sizable majority believes Kerry won. They're already running "George Bush lost the first debate; now he's lying about it" ads, which are stupid and ineffectual on their face, because even those who think he lost can see that the President has been nothing but gracious; but the contesting of the debate's result on the grounds of cheating would give the Dems exactly the ammunition they need to give their empty rhetoric weight in the minds of many. Remember in 2000, when a great many Democrats were turned off by their own candidate's attempt to overturn an election they could see he lost? What Gore did, in addition to everything else, looked very bad; while we're probably right on this matter; the view of the mass public will be no kinder to us.
It is very frustrating battling a political party with no morals or ethics whatsoever, because they know that it's win/win for them when they do this kind of thing. And yet, years of success with dirty tricks have made the party extremely hubristic. The Democrats still don't pick their battles, even though they can't always get away with it the way they used to. In the last decade or so, and especially in the last few years, they have been very stupid politically. They have latched onto every Michael Moore/MoveOn.org conspiracy theory and shouted them all from the rooftops. Ol' Lardo himself is given a place of honor at their convention right next to a former President of the United States. In 2002, the result of all this was that the President's party made gains in an off-year election for the first time since 1962. The Dems learned nothing from having their collective clock cleaned, and this year they will pay a very dear price, again. But if Republicans try to make anything out of Debategate, I sincerely believe that it will have the same appearance to the mass public that the Dems' bellyaching and conspiracizing has. Conservatives have to recognize, as the Left has not, that there are some battles that are too costly, and continue to play the smart game that has steadily gained us strength.
Maybe I'm looking at this from too much of a political standpoint rather than a moral one, but I've always been a Big Picture guy. Priority One is getting George Bush re-elected. To accomplish that in the face of an extraordinarily hostile media, and a too-often-ignorant public, there is very little margin for error. And this is a battle that simply can't be fought -- no matter how right we may be about Kerry's shenanigans -- without the high probability of projecting onto Bush -- in the minds of the mass public -- a "sore loser" image that he does not deserve and cannot afford. History will have the final say on whether John Kerry cheated in the first debate. Right now, though, for all practical purposes, that debate is over, a large majority of the American public believes he won it (he did not, as far as I'm concerned), and trying to refight yesterday's battle is not going to impress anybody.
And that's my say on this matter. I'm repeating it in this thread because I think it's a very relevant and important thing to remember for anyone with a mind to pursue it.
-Dan
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