Posted on 10/06/2004 11:50:17 AM PDT by NorseWood
The actual number is about 1.1 million according to the latest (2001) US census data (http://www.census.gov/prod/2004pubs/03statab/pop.pdf). This is less than one half of one percent of the US Population.
The actual number [of US muslims] is about 1.1 million according to the latest (2001) US census data (http://www.census.gov/prod/2004pubs/03statab/pop.pdf). This is less than one half of one percent of the US Population.
Forgot to mention, it is in table 79 of the above .pdf
"With a reproductive rate of 7.2 children per couple..."
Huh? My Muslim friends have two children, and that's all they're planning on.
Another argument is that immigrants will "americanize" and become like the rest of us. The failure of assimilation in Europe already proves that is not the case. Some groups are simply not capable of assimilating into the mainstream. We can look at the Amish and Orthodox Jews who have been here for generations as examples. It also points out to the fact that among such groups reproductive rates are a culturally determined factor and not dependent upon assimilation or economic condition.
I thought it was obvious that i was being facetious. Maybe putting some of them in Manzanar would give them a chance to ponder all of this. Denunciations of jihadists by the Muslim community has been largely underwhelming. A deafening silence, except for a handful of individuals.
If he's lived here for 40 years without voting he should be deported.
Klintoon backed the wrong side.
"not to self, review and spellcheck"
Always a sound idea.
My beeber was stuned, seriesly, when FR FRoze up on me. LOL
The number of 6 million claimed by the Muslims has no basis in fact to support it. If it did, it would have been referenced in the story. If you can find any evidence (not anecdotal argument) to support that number, please post it.
There' a lot of information freely available on the internet about the controversy of the muslim numbers touted by pro-Islamic groups to represent muslim populations (not just in the US, but worldwide) as larger than they likely are. Don't fall for this flawed Islamic PR number.
Furthermore, if you read some of the Islamic press you'll find that a major concern of the fundamentalists is that many muslims in Western countries are dropping Islam altogether, converting, or becoming secularized.
Muslim demographic changes are definately something to be concerned about, simply for the fact that a percentage of that population is fundamentalist and may harbor jihadist intentions against us. We need to know more about this population, which I agree is probably rather cloistered in many respects.
Again, if you have a source of good data on this subject to back up your claim, please post it.
Thanks for the sociology lesson. I actually learned that 20 years ago when I frequented an Iraqi restaurant in NYC, run by a wonderful gentleman who had fled Saddam and the hell-hole that he created. He treated me like family and fed me way more than I should have been eating. I also learned it earlier, in college, from Abdul and Tufik, my co-workers in the library. Had they still been in Lebanon at the time, they would have been mortal enemies launching rockets at each other from hotel rooftops because they were from different sects of the "Religion of Peace".
I also had it reinforced more recently by a Syrian-born Muslim I used to work with who, on 9/11, was so angry that he was ready to push the button and turn the entire Middle East into a parking lot because the his adopted home of the United States had been attacked by terrorists who were from the same religion. Turns out that his great-grandfather was a robber on the same road that my great-grandfather traveled with his merchandise between Beirut and Damascus. We had a good laugh about that.
I have some understanding of where Muslims come from, and no shortage of experience with the damage the religion has done in modern times, both to Muslims and infidels like myself.
My point remains: George W. Bush has taken the first tangible effort to change the way things are going over there. It may not be perfect, but I'd rather see a clumsy effort to change than a slick, nuanced effort to hold on to systems that are breeding corruption, terror and death.
You have already limited the conditions by which you would accept any other numbers. So whatever I would post is open to your rejection anyway. I find it rather interesting that the census forms that are sent out every ten years continuously change the definition of race and also do not include a question regarding religion. There is of course also the issue of methodology in estimating data which the census bureau does not ask for in the regular census every ten years. As for estimates here at at least two independent sources here and here. If you do a search on Goggle you will come up with just as many variants.
Based on my own experiences as a census enumerator and that of others I have spoken to, I can tell you that at least in new York and in places such as California and the southwest there is a serious population undercount. The constitution and the law however, require the census to count only people who are physically counted. Thus we cannot include any estimates for the illegal population in the country. If such people were to somehow be counted the ramifications would be radical. California, New York, Illinois, New Mexico, Arizona, Texas, Colorado just for starters would gain population and thus congressional as well as electoral college votes. Congressional districts are apportioned by population (approx. 650,000), not eligible voters. Such a shift would have serious political implications and would permanently shift power to states where democrats have the strongest balance of power. It is no wonder then that democrats try every so often to push the idea of a census based on estimates rather than actual count.
I cannot tell you how many times I was in homes taking a census knowing there were other people in addition to the ones willing to be counted (as they were legal)but not being able to count them by law if they did not voluntarily want to be counted. I also never let on to the fact that I could speak spanish which allowed me the luxury of listening to their conversations. As far as they assumed I was a white American. I also did a follow up census in a heavily arab section of Brooklyn and I can tell you for certain that there were many people there who overstayed their visitors visas and couldn't be counted. We can estimate their number since these people never left and we know the number of visas that were issued. But I digress. The point I am trying to make is that Census figures are as accurate as they are capable of being considering the restrictions and realities of the real world. Under such conditions the actual numbers of Mexican, Central American and other illegals in this country is seriously underestimated. One could of course accuse the government to underestimate the problem purposely so as not to alarm the voting public. Of course our government would never do a thing like that. Or would they?
Yesterday, on one of the conservative talk shows - I don't remember which one, the host said that if another 9/11 attack were to occur, he foresees a mass deportation, and a climate of total vigilante style "taking back of our country".
My teens (14, 16 and 18) were in the car with me and asked if that were possible. I told them that given laws as they stand right now - it would not be possible.
How far off do you think that host was in the realm of possibility?
Those who lost their loved ones in the twin towers on 9/11 would also like to feel the way they used to. So would those who bravely took out the the muslim terrorists and gave their lives on UA flight 93. To hell with those muzlimbs, stack, rack and pack them in the internment camps. American blood is precious. "Let's Roll" special note* for the bleeding heart liberals, intern them as well. Please continue to tell it like it is Ginifer.
Nevertheless, there is a wide range of numbers of Muslims presented to the media for public consumption, and the number 6 million is a self-reported estimate by muslim immams--read how they arrived at this number and you'll see how perposterous it is. They have an interest in inflating their own numbers to get more political influence.
The Britannica numbers are quite flawed also, in my opinion. C'mon, you want to trust the United Nations to tell you about America? Or CAIR?
Studies offer conflicting estimates of U.S. Muslim populationFull text here: http://www.detnews.com/2001/religion/0112/05/religion-351148.htmBy Bill Broadway / The Washington Post
[...] With a spotlight cast on American Muslims since Sept. 11, one seemingly simple question has defied a clear answer and become the focus of a politically charged dispute: What is the size of the U.S. Muslim population?
Four major Muslim organizations released a study in April that estimated the population at 6 million to 7 million. Based in part on that report, most media organizations, as well as the White House and the State Department, have said in recent weeks that there are at least 6 million Muslims in the country.
But two studies released last month, including one commissioned by the American Jewish Committee, concluded that the total is much lower: no more than 3.4 million and perhaps as few as 1.5 million.[...]
David Harris, the AJC's executive director, said his organization had long suspected that the U.S. Muslim community was inflating its population figures. With the attention brought to Islam by the terrorist attacks and the "wildly divergent" figures quoted in the media, Harris said the AJC decided it was time to commission an analysis.
"It's not about numbers; it's about truth and accuracy," Harris said. "If a group born yesterday suddenly says it has 8 million members, that has societal consequences. If it's true, God bless them. If not true, do we go with the manufactured number?"
Religious denominations, like all interest groups, can gain or lose political clout based on perceptions of their size, said J. Gordon Melton, director of the Institute for the Study of American Religion in Santa Barbara, Calif. In the case of the U.S. Muslim community, Melton said, its efforts to influence policy in the Middle East would get a boost if it were viewed as being larger than the country's Jewish population, which is estimated at 6 million. [...]
The conflicting studies are not simply a case of sponsors with different political agendas, however. The gap in the numbers also illustrates the problems that demographers have long faced when trying to count religious populations.
Definitive numbers don't exist in part because the U.S. Census, the most extensive survey of American society, is prohibited from asking about religious affiliation. Religious groups, when contributing population figures for reference books, most often rely on self-reported membership figures from houses of worship. [...]
Islam presents a particular challenge, because mosques typically do not maintain membership lists.
The April report co-sponsored by CAIR, titled "The Mosque in America: A National Portrait," was the Muslim portion of the largest U.S. denominational survey ever, a project coordinated by the Hartford Institute for Religious Research.
Researchers called the nation's 1,209 known mosques and interviewed leaders at 416 of them. Respondents were asked to estimate the number of people involved in their mosque in any way. The average response was 1,625 participants. Multiplying that figure by the 1,209 mosques, lead researcher Ihsan Bagby determined there were 2 million "mosqued Muslims" in the United States.
Bagby, a professor of international relations at Shaw University in Raleigh, N.C., multiplied that number by three to account for people who identify themselves as Muslims but might not participate in mosque activities. He calls this multiplier an educated guess based on years of observation of the Islamic community.
Paul Perl, a research assistant at the Center for Applied Research in the Apostolate at Georgetown University, analyzed the data for Bagby and wrote a preliminary draft of the report. But Perl said he did not see the final version before publication, including Bagby's population estimate of 6 million to 7 million.
"I don't think there is an easy way to go from the number of people at mosques to a total population figure," Perl said. He also said the average figure Bagby used on mosque participation might have been too high, noting that two imams in the survey estimated that their mosques had 50,000 participants.
Carl Dudley, co-director of the Hartford denominational project, said it is not uncommon for religious groups to multiply worship attendance figures by three, five or even seven to obtain an estimate of total adherents. "The whole thing is a little slippery," he said.
CAIR's Awad, asked why his group settled on an estimate of 7 million in its press statements rather than Bagby's range of 6 million to 7 million, said the organization had used 6 million for six years. "If we still used the number six," he said, "people would say, ãHaven't we grown?' "
The American Jewish Committee believed the number was wrong, so it hired Tom Smith, director of the General Social Survey at the National Opinion Research Center at the University of Chicago.
Smith analyzed 45 documents and papers, including public opinion surveys, worship attendance studies and immigration statistics. He concluded that his "best survey estimate" of American Muslims was 1.9 million but allowed for a range of 1.5 million to 3.4 million.
The AJC's Harris said his group knew it would be criticized for commissioning Smith to do the study. Smith was known to be skeptical about the figure of 6 million U.S. Muslims; last year, he told the Los Angeles Times that the number was "completely invalid" and that Muslim groups were "inventing an estimate."
But Harris said: "If Smith had said, ãOops, I made a mistake. The estimate is 10 million,' we would have published it."
Smith said he had been looking at the Muslim population issue since 1995 and planned to publish a report by the end of the year even before the AJC approached him.
On Oct. 24, a day after the AJC published Smith's report, the Graduate Center of the City University of New York released its American Religious Identification Survey 2001.
The university study was based on a random telephone survey. Members of more than 50,000 households -- a sample 25 to 50 times larger than in most national surveys -- were asked, "What is your religion, if any?"
Researchers adjusted the figures to account for such factors as nonparticipation by immigrants who did not speak English or who were afraid to respond because they were from countries where publicizing one's religion can result in reprisals.
Projecting the numbers in the sample to the overall U.S. population, the study's authors put the number of Muslims at 2.8 million.
David Barrett, a demographer whose staff provides annual U.S. and world religion estimates for Encyclopaedia Britannica and 20 other yearbooks, last year estimated the U.S. Muslim population at 4.1 million.
Barrett said he has reservations about each of the other three studies. He said he was "not all that impressed" by Smith's study because it relied on old material. He said household telephone surveys, even one as large as CUNY's, miss people without telephones and do not account for teen-agers who have different beliefs from their parents. The mosque study, he said, relies too heavily on self-reported figures.
Barrett said his own method is to analyze population data from a variety of sources, including United Nations reports. For U.S. Muslims, many of whom are immigrants, he looks at the percentage of Sunnis, Shiites and other sects in their country of origin and projects that onto the immigrant population here. The large gaps between the various estimates suggest that more research needs to be done and that demographers would benefit from sharing data and variables specific to the Muslim community, said Bryan Froehle, executive director of the Georgetown research center, which was hired to analyze the mosque figures in Bagby's report. "What their study does is force us to look more sharply, to think of other ways to get at this issue," Bagby said of the CUNY report. "I just wish it wasn't a political hot potato."
You're dead right.
The Clinton-Bush-Kerry administration continues to pour the enemy into our homeland - to the tune of about 100,000 new green-carded muslim aliens per year.
bump
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