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Town trustee causes furor for refusing to say the Pledge of Allegiance
9news.com ^

Posted on 10/06/2004 11:58:35 AM PDT by MaineRepublic

ESTES PARK - The mountain town of Estes Park is wrestling with some momentous issues these days; issues like freedom of religion, freedom of speech, and the U.S. Constitution.

It all came to a head when Town Trustee David Habecker refused to recite the Pledge of Allegiance at last week's board meeting. Habecker says the "under God" clause clashes with the constitutional separation of church and state. "I firmly believe it is a violation of the Constitution and felt it was my duty to make that position known," says Habecker.

But Town Trustee Lori Jeffrey-Clark says Habecker should have made his objections known before he was elected. "You know we're all elected and we're all supposed to lay it out on the table, who and what we stand for," Jeffrey-Clark says. Habecker says the Pledge of Allegiance only became an issue when the Board of Trustees decided to start saying it at the beginning of their meetings last spring. "And then a couple of weeks ago it just hit me," Habecker says, "that I was being a hypocrite standing there, mouthing the words". So now Habecker remains in his chair and stays silent while the pledge is recited.

Some residents of Estes Park are drawing up a petition to recall Habecker. They only need about 215 valid signatures to get it on the ballot.


TOPICS: Culture/Society; News/Current Events; US: Colorado
KEYWORDS: 1stamendment; colorado; estespark; habecker; pledge; pledgeofallegiance; undergod
Why do people feel the need to make an issue of the Pledge of Allegiance? It is now part of our heritage. A link back to the days of the Cold War when we took comfort in our faith. I don't see how anyone could this this was some sort of establishing religion issue.
1 posted on 10/06/2004 11:58:36 AM PDT by MaineRepublic
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To: MaineRepublic

could someone post a link to the Estes Park city government? I, for one would like to let them know this issue will keep me from spending my money in their town while on vacation.


2 posted on 10/06/2004 12:02:37 PM PDT by Widows Son (Semper Fi!)
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To: MaineRepublic

Why doesn't he just remain silent for the words "under God"?


3 posted on 10/06/2004 12:02:56 PM PDT by Unam Sanctam
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To: Unam Sanctam

"Why doesn't he just remain silent for the words "under God"?"

Excellent question. As an atheist, that's what I do. I say the Pledge as it was taught to me, back in 1950, before the words were even in there. But I say it proudly.


4 posted on 10/06/2004 12:04:29 PM PDT by MineralMan (godless atheist)
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To: Widows Son

http://www.estesnet.com/


5 posted on 10/06/2004 12:05:33 PM PDT by MaineRepublic (Talk sense to a fool and he calls you foolish. -- Euripides)
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To: Widows Son
Town of Estes Park - Mayor and Town Trustees


David Habecker

6 posted on 10/06/2004 12:06:15 PM PDT by Constitution Day
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To: MineralMan
Excellent question. As an atheist, that's what I do. I say the Pledge as it was taught to me, back in 1950, before the words were even in there. But I say it proudly.

There we have the problem. This has nothing to do with atheist vs. religion, rather it has to do with internationalism vs. patriotism.
7 posted on 10/06/2004 12:07:19 PM PDT by tjwmason (Coerced and bribed window-dressing.)
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To: MaineRepublic

"Why do people feel the need to make an issue of the Pledge of Allegiance? It is now part of our heritage. A link back to the days of the Cold War when we took comfort in our faith. I don't see how anyone could this this was some sort of establishing religion issue."


To answer your question, idiots like this just want their 15 minutes of fame!

God, God, God, God, God, what is wrong with people trying to eliminate GOD from everything??? IMO that's what's wrong with the world, no GOD. Next they'll try to remove God from our currency and put what - in hell we trust? in the moon we trust?


8 posted on 10/06/2004 12:07:55 PM PDT by rockabyebaby (What goes around, comes around!)
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To: MineralMan

Does it really offend you to say "Under God"?


9 posted on 10/06/2004 12:11:17 PM PDT by MaineRepublic (Talk sense to a fool and he calls you foolish. -- Euripides)
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To: MaineRepublic

Okay, I'm going to blunt again. Ready?

This man is a maggot!

Betcha he votes for Kerry six or seven times.


10 posted on 10/06/2004 12:16:12 PM PDT by RexBeach (Before God makes you greedy, he makes you stupid.)
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To: MaineRepublic

"Does it really offend you to say "Under God"?"

No. I just don't say it, because I'm an atheist and don't believe that deities or any other supernatural entities exist. It doesn't bother me when others invoke their deity. It only bothers me when others try to insist that I invoke their deity.

I pledge allegiance to my nation, which I have served honorably. I needn't reference some deity in which I do not believe to honor my nation by pledging allegiance to it.

You're welcome to, though. I'll never object.


11 posted on 10/06/2004 12:19:56 PM PDT by MineralMan (godless atheist)
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To: MaineRepublic

It kind of defeats the purpose of the Pledge if he says things he doesn't believe as a part of it. If the Pledge were just a bunch of words, I doubt he'd care much. That he cares enough to examine what's being said and remains silent for whatever does not apply shows effort and sincerity to me.


12 posted on 10/06/2004 12:22:15 PM PDT by NJ_gent (Conservatism begins at home. Security begins at the border. Please, someone, secure our borders.)
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To: MaineRepublic
First, I bet money this man has not read the Constitution since Junior High School.

Second, I bet the REASON he believes there is some violation of law is because he read it in the PAPER.

There is no law stating this. Our forefathers were concerned about the POWERS of CHURCH and POWERS of STATE being mixed.

The only way to do what this 'trustee' suggests is for any political worker of any stripe or office, to sign an oath of aetheism upon taking that post. Take God off the MONEY, Take it out of the POA.

This country is UNDER GOD. Not under RELIGION.

If you want to be an atheist, that doesn't change the fact that the rest of us have faith in it.

13 posted on 10/06/2004 12:28:43 PM PDT by UCANSEE2 (freedom is relative. Depends on who you have for a relative.)
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To: MaineRepublic
Habecker says the Pledge of Allegiance only became an issue when the Board of Trustees decided to start saying it at the beginning of their meetings last spring.
"And then a couple of weeks ago it just hit me," Habecker says, "that I was being a hypocrite standing there, mouthing the words".
So now Habecker remains in his chair and stays silent while the pledge is recited.

Some residents of Estes Park are drawing up a petition to recall Habecker. They only need about 215 valid signatures to get it on the ballot.

______________________________________


Why do people feel the need to make an issue of the Pledge of Allegiance? I don't see how anyone could this this was some sort of establishing religion issue.
1 MaineRepublic


______________________________________


Why do people feel the need to make an issue of a man who refuses to say "under god"?

Our Constitution specifies [in Article VI] that the oath of office is "to support this Constitution", and, -- that "no religious test shall ever be required" to hold any office.

Some residents of Estes Park are dead wrong in drawing up a petition to try recalling Habecker for his refusal.
14 posted on 10/06/2004 12:34:12 PM PDT by tpaine (No man has a natural right to commit aggression on the equal rights of another. - T. Jefferson)
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To: UCANSEE2
UCANSEE2 wrote:

First, I bet money this man has not read the Constitution since Junior High School.

How long has it been since you read Art. VI?

15 posted on 10/06/2004 12:37:38 PM PDT by tpaine (No man has a natural right to commit aggression on the equal rights of another. - T. Jefferson)
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To: tpaine

"Why do people feel the need to make an issue of a man who refuses to say "under god"?

Our Constitution specifies [in Article VI] that the oath of office is "to support this Constitution", and, -- that "no religious test shall ever be required" to hold any office.
"

Well, to be perfectly accurate, the person in question is not saying the Pledge at all. He could easily stand mute just for the words "under God," as many folks do, but still pledge his allegiance.

He's making a small thing into a large one, and that's just stupid. While I've been called names for omitting "under God," that doesn't disturb me. If I stood mute for the whole pledge, then that would be a different matter.

Interestingly, I used to live in a tourist town. During that town's 4th of July celebration, there was a big mass flag salute and several hundred people saying the Pledge. I stood next to a couple, who stood silent during the Pledge. I thought it rather odd, but didn't say anything.

The guy standing behind these folks did. He cursed them, called them un-American, and used some pretty foul language toward them. I suspect he had consumed a few too many beers.

The man of the couple listened to this guy's diatribe, then turned around and said, in a British accent, "I cannot pledge allegiance to your flag, since I am a British subject. You, sir, are a dolt."

Shut the loud guy right up.


16 posted on 10/06/2004 12:42:18 PM PDT by MineralMan (godless atheist)
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To: tpaine

I'm agnostic, but does that mean I would be a hypocrite saying "Under God"? No. I say it as it is part of our heritage. To me it just acknowledges the role faith has had in our nation's history.

Do you leave it out of Lincoln's Gettysburg Address too like I have seen some do:

"It is rather for us to be here dedicated to the great task remaining before us -- that from these honored dead we take increased devotion to that cause for which they gave the last full measure of devotion -- that we here highly resolve that these dead shall not have died in vain -- that this nation, under God, shall have a new birth of freedom -- and that government of the people, by the people, for the people, shall not perish from the earth."


17 posted on 10/06/2004 12:43:23 PM PDT by MaineRepublic (Talk sense to a fool and he calls you foolish. -- Euripides)
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To: Unam Sanctam
because he wouldn't get any attention that way... just acting like a little brat
18 posted on 10/06/2004 12:44:09 PM PDT by Chode (American Hedonist )
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To: MaineRepublic
Does it really offend you to say "Under God"?

Try this test: Would it offend you to say "...one nation, inshallah, with liberty and justice for all" ?

19 posted on 10/06/2004 12:46:55 PM PDT by jennyp (...it's just a third-rate forgery.)
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To: jennyp

"Does it really offend you to say "Under God"?
Try this test: Would it offend you to say "...one nation, inshallah, with liberty and justice for all" ?




Well, I think the real problem is that my not saying "under God" offends him. That's too bad, really, but there it is. I explained myself, and my reasons for not saying it, pointing out that I say the Pledge as I first learned it, before those words were added.

In 1954, when "under God" was added to the Pledge, I was in the fourth grade. Our teacher said to the class, "Class, we have a new Pledge of Allegiance to learn today. It contains two new words, "under God." Those of you who have been taught by your parents not to use such phrases needn't say that part, but can continue to say the Pledge as it was before."

Now, that's the way it should be done. Anyone who questions my patriotism based on my omission of words I cannot, say due to my disbelief, are going to get a lecture from me about the meaning of patriotism. One needn't be a Christian to be a patriot. It simply isn't a requirement, and our Founders wrote that into the Constitution, when they said that no religious test could ever be required of anyone taking a position of trust in our nation.

Those who denigrate those who cannot say "under God," for whatever reason, are missing a very important part of our American Republic.


20 posted on 10/06/2004 12:57:36 PM PDT by MineralMan (godless atheist)
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To: MaineRepublic

Lordy, what a bunch of hooey. Just say the pledge, moron, and leave out the parts you don't like. "B-b-b-but, I need my OWN pledge so my f-f-f-feelings won't get hurt!" Screw you!

OK, that's probably the worst thing I've ever said here in the FR. Done venting now.


21 posted on 10/06/2004 1:29:44 PM PDT by AmericanChef
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To: MineralMan
Why do people feel the need to make an issue of a man who refuses to say "under god"?
Our Constitution specifies [in Article VI] that the oath of office is "to support this Constitution", and, -- that "no religious test shall ever be required" to hold any office.
Some residents of Estes Park are dead wrong in drawing up a petition to try recalling Habecker for his refusal.

Well, to be perfectly accurate, the person in question is not saying the Pledge at all. He could easily stand mute just for the words "under God," as many folks do, but still pledge his allegiance.

Of course he could. He's stupid to make an issue of it by sitting silent. -- That's not the issue though, imo.

He's making a small thing into a large one, and that's just stupid.

I see the true stupidity in some residents of Estes Park trying to draw up an unconstitutional petition to recall Habecker for his refusal.
They are making the "big thing" of this.

22 posted on 10/06/2004 1:55:40 PM PDT by tpaine (No man has a natural right to commit aggression on the equal rights of another. - T. Jefferson)
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To: tpaine

So I take it you are in favor of the 9th Circuit declaring the Pledge Unconstitutional?

How ridiculous.


23 posted on 10/06/2004 3:23:38 PM PDT by MaineRepublic (Talk sense to a fool and he calls you foolish. -- Euripides)
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To: jennyp

If inshallah was part of our heritage, then inshallah I would be saying.


24 posted on 10/06/2004 3:25:27 PM PDT by MaineRepublic (Talk sense to a fool and he calls you foolish. -- Euripides)
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To: rockabyebaby

It's like Charlie Daniel's words in his song, "Simple Man" People in the world say what's wrong today, Cause many have put the (good book) away. Now their living by the law of the jungle, not the law of the land. Bush/Cheney 2004


25 posted on 10/06/2004 3:27:28 PM PDT by No Surrender No Retreat (These Colors Never Run( 7.62) "See Ya"ll At The VA Clinic" "Xin Loi My Boy")
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To: rockabyebaby

It's like Charlie Daniel's words in his song, "Simple Man" People in the world say what's wrong today, Cause many have put the (good book) away. Now their living by the law of the jungle, not the law of the land. Bush/Cheney 2004


26 posted on 10/06/2004 3:27:48 PM PDT by No Surrender No Retreat (These Colors Never Run( 7.62) "See Ya"ll At The VA Clinic" "Xin Loi My Boy")
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To: Widows Son

If the actions of one guy are enough to keep you from spending money in a town, don't go anywhere. Everywhere you go, there is going to be somebody you don't agree with.


27 posted on 10/06/2004 3:28:45 PM PDT by Melas
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To: MineralMan
Is requiring the recitation (ie, sanctioning him for not reciting it) the Pledge a "religious test" within the meaning of Article IV? The Pledge is not exactly a religious rite. It has a sole reference to a generic monotheistic diety... but the MSM has made it into something more.

(If he's a really-far Lefty, I wonder if he'll sue on this basis after he is voted out of office next time around.)

28 posted on 10/06/2004 3:31:22 PM PDT by Teacher317
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To: MaineRepublic
I see the true stupidity in some residents of Estes Park trying to draw up an unconstitutional petition to recall Habecker for his refusal. They are making the "big thing" of this.

So I take it you are in favor of the 9th Circuit declaring the Pledge Unconstitutional? How ridiculous.

Your assumption about me is ridiculous. I think the issue is a stupid tempest in a teapot. Unless people are being coerced to recite the 'under god' part of the pledge, who could rationally care?

29 posted on 10/06/2004 4:09:49 PM PDT by tpaine (No man has a natural right to commit aggression on the equal rights of another. - T. Jefferson)
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To: MaineRepublic
If inshallah was part of our heritage, then inshallah I would be saying.

Personally, I've never bothered trying to unlearn saying "under God", which is how I was taught in Catholic elementary school.

It took me years to stop making the sign of the cross whenever I heard an ambulance siren!

I do agree this guy is making too much of it. He should just say the Pledge that won World War II & be done with it.

30 posted on 10/06/2004 4:34:07 PM PDT by jennyp (...it's just a third-rate forgery.)
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To: tpaine
How long has it been since you read Art. VI?

About 2 years.

I (unlike the person discussed), would be very interested to have the info.

Article. VI.

Clause 1: All Debts contracted and Engagements entered into, before the Adoption of this Constitution, shall be as valid against the United States under this Constitution, as under the Confederation.

Clause 2: This Constitution, and the Laws of the United States which shall be made in Pursuance thereof; and all Treaties made, or which shall be made, under the Authority of the United States, shall be the supreme Law of the Land; and the Judges in every State shall be bound thereby, any Thing in the Constitution or Laws of any State to the Contrary notwithstanding.

Clause 3: The Senators and Representatives before mentioned, and the Members of the several State Legislatures, and all executive and judicial Officers, both of the United States and of the several States, shall be bound by Oath or Affirmation, to support this Constitution; but no religious Test shall ever be required as a Qualification to any Office or public Trust under the United States.

IS THIS WHAT YOU MEAN?

31 posted on 10/07/2004 12:44:59 PM PDT by UCANSEE2 (freedom is relative. Depends on who you have for a relative.)
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To: Widows Son
could someone post a link to the Estes Park city government? I, for one would like to let them know this issue will keep me from spending my money in their town while on vacation.

You want to penalize a town that decided that they should say the pledge before their town hall meetings? That council members say that he should have stated his position PRIOR to election? A town that is in the process of recalling him?

32 posted on 10/07/2004 12:48:12 PM PDT by WildTurkey
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To: tpaine
Why do people feel the need to make an issue of a man who MAKES IT AN ISSUE TO refuses to say "under god"?

He could have just omitted the "under God" part as many do, or at least stood politely.

He wanted to make a statement and the people feel the need to respond.

33 posted on 10/07/2004 12:52:20 PM PDT by WildTurkey
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To: tpaine
So, do you believe this is what the 'protestors' are arguing about?

Do you believe, then, that this man must not KNOW WHAT THE HELL HE IS ARGUING ABOUT?

Did I win or lose this debate?

(Thank you for your initial response. I have followed many of your discussions, and know that you are informed on the subject of the Constitution, as well)

34 posted on 10/07/2004 12:52:30 PM PDT by UCANSEE2 (freedom is relative. Depends on who you have for a relative.)
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To: tpaine
P.S. I guess that those who want separation of GOD and STATE missed out on the fact that in a COURT OF LAW they must SWEAR on the BIBLE.

If that is removed, as a precursor to truth in testimony, what happens to our legal system?

35 posted on 10/07/2004 12:56:14 PM PDT by UCANSEE2 (freedom is relative. Depends on who you have for a relative.)
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To: tpaine; All
OH, I forgot, those who call themselves Democrats believe that only others must tell "The WHOLE TRUTH AND NOTHING BUT THE TRUTH".

They are allowed (by justification inside their own mind) to tell ONLY WHAT BENEFITS THEMSELVES and PROTECTS WHAT THEY HAVE STOLEN FROM OTHERS.

You know this is their goal.

36 posted on 10/07/2004 12:58:41 PM PDT by UCANSEE2 (freedom is relative. Depends on who you have for a relative.)
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To: metesky; SheLion

ping


37 posted on 10/07/2004 1:06:48 PM PDT by Little Bill (John F'n Kerry is a self promoting scumbag!)
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To: MaineRepublic

I feel his pain. If Kerry wins I may have trouble with the ,"I pledge allegiance" part ...


38 posted on 10/07/2004 1:09:37 PM PDT by 11th_VA (John Kerry - America's first European ruler since King George)
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To: metesky; SheLion
Sorry about the ping, I thought it was another Baldacci commie coming out of the closet.
39 posted on 10/07/2004 1:16:11 PM PDT by Little Bill (John F'n Kerry is a self promoting scumbag!)
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To: 11th_VA

Well, I don't even want to think about that, but this Republic is greater than any one man. If we were able to survive 1860-1865 then we should be able to survive anything.


40 posted on 10/07/2004 2:11:21 PM PDT by MaineRepublic (Talk sense to a fool and he calls you foolish. -- Euripides)
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To: Melas

the actions of one man aren't the issue, the actions of an unpatriotic member of a towns governing board are.
And if a towns city government offends me, I will go elsewhere.


41 posted on 10/07/2004 5:42:31 PM PDT by Widows Son (Semper Fi!)
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To: WildTurkey

NO, all I want to do is make it known to them that this man is creating a problem for them and his actions may keep tourists away.
Estes Park is a tourist town after all


42 posted on 10/07/2004 5:44:04 PM PDT by Widows Son (Semper Fi!)
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To: Widows Son
NO, all I want to do is make it known to them that this man is creating a problem for them

I think they already know that! They have already started a recall.

It is petty to try to punish a whole town for the unsupported actions of one man.

Let's rehash. The town has a policy of saying the pledge at council meetings, right? That is good, right? One man is an a$h$.

Conclusion: Punish the town?

43 posted on 10/07/2004 7:01:59 PM PDT by WildTurkey
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To: Widows Son
the actions of one man aren't the issue, the actions of an unpatriotic member of a towns governing board are. And if a towns city government offends me, I will go elsewhere. The town's government offends you by requiring the pledge at their meetings? Wow!
44 posted on 10/07/2004 7:03:34 PM PDT by WildTurkey
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To: UCANSEE2

I'm PRAYING, yes PRAYING, they get the 200 or so signatures.

He needs to go back to school (or to FINISH school), and to figure out the intent of the Founding Fathers was that the govt not dictate a PARTICULAR religion (such as Anglican) to which the people ('sheeple') must belong. If I lived in Estes, his path home at night would not be without signs and fanfare making fun of his idiotic stance. I would make it my MISSION to embarass him right out of town.


45 posted on 10/07/2004 7:30:19 PM PDT by ZOTnot (first "LADY?" (Theresa) : 'Idiots', 'Shove it', 'Scumbags', 'Let them go naked'.)
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To: MaineRepublic

http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/1302076/posts


46 posted on 12/15/2004 5:08:52 PM PST by JoJo Gunn (More than two lawyers in any Country constitutes a terrorist organization. )
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To: MaineRepublic

The latest on this story is that Habecker has won an injunction on the recall election from a Federal Judge in Denver. Much to the chagrin of the people of Estes Park, my hometown for 20 years, he has made this a national issue. In a speech to some group in Ft. Collins he made his agenda clear when he told them he wanted to have the Pledge removed from all public schools.


47 posted on 02/19/2005 7:54:20 AM PST by TigersEye (Intellectuals only exist if you think they do.)
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