USAF explains 'Cope India' Results

Aviation Week & Space Technology ^ | 7-10-04

[sukhoi-30mki]

Err India's president & the bloke who lead the effort to build it's space rockets & missile systems is a Muslim.It can't get more sensitive than that can it??A number of Indian muslims have won gallantry awards fighting Pakistan as recently as 1999.Pilots,naval captains in India belong to every religion in India(though the number of Christians in the services is unbelievably high when compared to them being only 2.5% of the population).A number of surveys done among Indian muslims have shown that most(ranging from 60-75%) loathe Pakistan & see Pakistan as a primary agent which lead to the rise of Hindu extremism & under 10% have any support towards Pakiland.IN short,the avg Indian muslim(like the Turkish or Malaysian) wants to get on with life unlike his Paki or Arab counterparts.A stunning survey done by the BBC in 2001,showed that British employers were 4 times more likely to hire an Indian Muslim than a Pakistani or Bangladeshi one.

[Cronos]

Does the IAF think they can get anywhere near a CG in this lifetime

I think India already has a Carrier Group. THey're also building a few more of their own. However, their field of operations is the Indian Ocean and they are our allies in this -- we have no problemw ith the Indians keeping East AFrica, the Persian Gulf, Suez and Malacca Strait trade routes clear. THe Indians need these routes clear for their own trade and the US wants the same -- win-win situation.

They way you talk as if the Indians are actually potential military opponents is laughable. There are no points on which we would ever go to war against them

[Cronos]

My best guess is that a second demonstration of political will from the U.S. will have a salutary effect (as with Libya) on Syria and Saudi Arabia.

Ah, but the Shias are NOT in power in Bahrain, Lebanon, Pakistand, Saudi A or Yemen. Asamatterofact, they are persecuted in Pakistan, Saudi A and Yemen. Sukhoi -- Bahrain is tiny, it's population is barely 1 million, inconsequential.

[Cronos]

They will cut off shipping through the straits, which will put Japan in a very bad spot for oil

The Chinese navy is didly-squatch. They have no power beyond the South China Sea. India, Indonesia and Australia won't allow them to move into the Indian Ocean in any significant number. Japan can take on the Chinese navy single-handed and WIN.

[dennisw]

Many thanks for your detailed answer.

[Cronos]

And look where we started: I personally think that India will silently assent to this invasion. It is certainly possible that Russia will come down on China's side.

Are you joking? Both India and Russia nurse grievances against China. If China moves against Taiwan remember that it won't be easy, not even if Taiwan goes it alone. The Chinese woudl have to engage a huge number of troops, leaving its northern and western borders relatively undefended. If that does happen, then India would march into Tibet and the Russians would probably secure Inner Mongolia. And the Uighurs would rise up (covertly supported by the Russians of course).

[sukhoi-30mki]

My point is that the Shias can whip up trouble(At the instigation of the Mullahs) in those nations diverting US attention ,even if it's for a short period of time.Bahrein has a Shia population of bout 70%(IIRC i got it from a US govt website).more importantly ,it is the homebase for the USN 5th fleet,the nerve centre of US naval activity in the region,hence Bahrein's importance.& we all know what is happening in Pakistan now & bout Lebanon in the 80s.If the Shias run wild ,carrying out assasinations,terrorism & rioting etc,international opinion ,esp among the Slammics may turn against the US completely(a lot of Sunnis are not exactly thrilled about a nuclear Iran).Moreover if a sense of confusion persists in these countries,it is the ideal window of opportunity for OBL & his buddies to hit US targets in those countries.

[sukhoi-30mki]

YW-any time!!!!!

[risk]

Any US action on Iran,esp if it's a longterm commitment,will give the PRC breathing space to act on Taiwan.

This isn't so clear. The Axis of Evil's real strength was its ability to threaten western interests. With that threat diminished, the equation has to be recalculated. As with Libya's reported capitulation, Coalition wins can have interesting effects on the geopolitical chessboard.

The first lesson China learned was that we were willing to risk whole armies to WMD attacks to rebalance those tables.

China knows we're not spineless now. Taking out Iran's mullahs after three years of Democrat protest would prove that the Coalition had all the political backing it needed to make good its promises.

The rhetoric we've heard from China over the straights has had more to do with its sinister desire to use North Korea as a game piece.

I have yet to see proof that China doesn't derive strategic advantage from the Axis of Evil's own strength. Our commanders and our troops are seasoned combatants now. China understands that. Perhaps this is another reason why they resort to rhetoric.

[sukhoi-30mki]

The point is not whether the US defeats China at war-we all know how the script will go on that.It is whether the US govt(& more importantly people) have the will to fight China at a time,where Iraq is nowhere near stability & a freshly invaded Iran(for assumption's sake).It's one thing to be willing to fight for freedom/democracy etc-it is quiet another to walk the talk & take on the Chinese,who can also unleash their not so wellbehaved buddies like North Korea & Pakistan.

[Cronos]

The Russian T-34 tanks were superb -- tanks

They were also given superior guns etc. by the US.

[risk]

I think the argument we've heard from the left here is that use of force where it ties up our logistics lines and engages large numbers of forces, and strains relationships with our so-called "allies" emboldens our real enemies.

I see reasons that this argument doesn't hold up.

By the way, I can't think of a better way to keep both the Indian and the American air forces sharp than to compete like was described above. Democracies should keep each other sharp this way.

[Cronos]

India? My guess is quiet support for China. Japan? Might ask us to leave Japan if things got too far out of hand,

huh? Both these countries know that if China gets Taiwan out of the way, it can then focus on them. They won't allow it. Maybe not an overt attack (then again the Indians would dearly love to wrest Tibet away from China), but definitely "unofficial military maneouvres"

[Cronos]

We're pulling our forces out of Korea because they are entirely unnecessary to South Korean security. For the past 15 years or so, they've been there to restrain the South Korean government from trying to invade North Korea, not the other way around.

Interesting, I've never heard that, please could you elaborate> would South K actual invade the north?

You would guess wrong--they have a 42-year-old grudge, and China getting their a$$es kicked would provide an opportunity for settling it.

Pretty true -- a freeper once told me that when he worked in the university library, the Indian student employees would watch the movements of the PRC students in the Library. I had asked why they did this and they would reply that "You cannot trust THEM" and "You never know what they are up to." Heck the Indian students would talk about the Indian military's preparedness to fight "the war against China." They firmly believe that the PRC will make a move in Asia and that India is the only country that can halt such a move before the US could react.

Remember that India's out-spoken former defense minister said that China was India's number one enemy. And though he denied it, you must remember that the guy has a reputation for being a blurter -- he was simply stating what policy has decided.

[Mr Rogers]

Good to see I'm not the only one with a dislike of Lockheed - never would have believed a company would work so hard to screw the US... I understand making a profit, but what they will do to make an extra dime is obscene.

Poohbah & Pukin Dog - I was starting to get torqued until I reached your posts. Y'all saved me a lot of typing time & covered the ground more thoroughly while using less words. Thanks!

[Cronos]

Actually I think the Indian General who chopped up the Pakis in the 71 war (and liberated Bangladesh) was a Zoroastrian -- General Mankeshaw I think

[Cronos]

Pilots,naval captains in India belong to every religion in India(though the number of Christians in the services is unbelievably high when compared to them being only 2.5% of the population).

What is the percentage of Christians in the Indian military forces?

[Mr Rogers]

There may have been a time when South Korea would have considered an invasion - but not in a long time, I think. The old guard of senior military leaders have all retired, and the presence of 15 million South Koreans within 35 miles of the border acts as a strong deterent. The desire to re-unite is very strong in the South, but forcing the issue would be a terrifying thing.

[sukhoi-30mki]

Haven't done the math yet-but if your asking officer corp,id say close anywhere from 15-25%(tally that with a Christian pop which is only 2.5% of the total population)-the Indian services are fanatically secular so they usually avoid all inquiries on religious composition etc(though the Sikhs are exempt from it).A serving air force marshal is a christian so are a few senior commanders in the IN(though not admiral rank).If Im not mistaken,India has had 3 Christian Chiefs of naval staff,including the one who was around during the Kargil war.


BTW,Sam Manekshaw was helped in crushing the Pakis in 71 by a Jewish general,Gen. JFR Jacob.

[dennisw]

Are those Christians in their armed forces mostly with Portuguese or part Portuguese background? Any English among them? Thanks