Posted on 10/18/2004 9:13:08 AM PDT by kerrywearsbotox
Thanks for the corroboration of this information. To what extent do you suppose the church hierarchy is intentionally keeping a lid on this to prevent it from being used as political fodder by those who would turn Kerry into some sort of martyr?
Thanks.
And if O'Malley did answer yes, Greely and O'Brien and a not a few other Catholics will be brought on all the shout shows. They will muddle the waters by distorting the docterine of conscience, the separation of Church and state and whatever else.
I don't know. I don't have much hope about all this. Catholic docterine is esoteric and easily misrepresented. I think there is hiding room in it for hesitant bishops.
Dear DestroytheDemocrats,
Actually, Catholic doctrine is usually pretty simple and clear.
However, life is messy and muddied, and often, the Catholic Church is careful how doctrine applies to the actual circumstances of an individual life.
sitetest
Dear DestroytheDemocrats,
"And if O'Malley did answer yes, Greely and O'Brien and a not a few other Catholics will be brought on all the shout shows. They will muddle the waters by distorting the docterine of conscience, the separation of Church and state and whatever else."
Well, wheat and tares.
Although, don't be surprised if Fr. Greeley is a little hesitant to publicly denounce a doctrinal ruling that ultimately emanates from Rome. Even he can feel the hot breath of orthodoxy on his neck.
Sartorius pinged folks, including myself, to an interesting article by Fr. Neuhaus at First Things. It's about the latest meeting of the Catholic bishops. Things appear to be changing in interesting ways.
sitetest
Meaning individual priests, right? Priests do not determine Church doctrine. Priests that knowingly promote heretical doctrines are formal heretics.
I'm glad you put that in quotes. These people are CINOs.
Don't forget that practicing Catholics, and the Church as a whole, represent the backbone of the pro-life movement.
What is First Things. I'd like to read the article.
Dear fraidycat,
First Things is a magazine edited by Fr. Richard John Neuhaus, a Catholic convert from Lutheranism.
There is a link to the article in post #73 above.
sitetest
My mistake. Post #48.
Dear redgolum,
I think it is more likely that they'll make me pope than it is that Fr. Neuhaus' superiors will censor him for anything he's done publicly to date.
Which is to say, there is no chance of it at all. ;-)
sitetest
LOL! I tend to agree! He has made a few enemies though, on both sides.
BTW
http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/1248843/posts
Maybe Kerry will be excommed before the election!
What remains is an public acknowledgment of that fact. So if a reporter asks Bishop O'Mally the right question such as, "Has John Kerry excommunicated himself according to canon law?" All the bishop has to do is answer "YES".
Correct?
That's how I read it. If O'Malley says ANYTHING else, he is admitting that neither he nor his predecessor ever had formal interview with Senator Kerry to apprise him of his danger. Thus, O'Malley would be publicly admitting to being in violation of canon 386 himself. I don't know if O'Malley is a canon lawyer (most bishops are), but he would be a real foolish man not to be talking to one right now.
O'Malley has GOT to be sweating bullets, hoping no one asks that question for a couple of reasons. First, the answer places him squarely against canon 386. Second, the only reason any other bishop has leeway on giving Kerry the Eucharist right now is that Kerry's own bishop hasn't publicly pronounced on the matter. Once O'Malley publicly answers that question with a "yes," EVERY OTHER BISHOP MUST DENY KERRY THE EUCHARIST.
If anyone refuses, they are now at odds with the presiding bishop and arguably in formal schism.
These next few days are absolutely ticklish for O'Malley and for Kerry's presidential bid. This is, no lie, the October surprise that kills Kerry's bid.
Dear redgolum,
He already is excommunicated. That's the upshot of all this.
The CDF has ruled unofficially on a formal question of doctrine and faith brought to it by layman and canon lawyer, Marc Balestrieri. The CDF has ruled that Catholic politicians who uphold a right in law to abortion incur automatic excommunication by virtue of being formal heretics.
Mr. Kerry IS RIGHT NOW EXCOMMUNICATED.
All that lacks is an official, formal recognition of that excommunication. But that isn't actually needed.
Mr. Kerry is as excommunicated as the local neighborhood Catholic abortionist.
sitetest
Dear skellmeyer,
"Once O'Malley publicly answers that question with a 'yes,' EVERY OTHER BISHOP MUST DENY KERRY THE EUCHARIST."
Actually, there was a case out in California, I think, of a bishop denying the sacraments to a pro-abort Catholic pol. The neighboring Catholic bishop invited the pol to the Eucharist in his diocese.
In this case, where one bishop didn't recognize the excommunication of another, it wouldn't mean schism, but it would mean that if the excommunicating bishop wished to enforce the excommunication across the board, he'd have to bring it to Rome. I think this has happened before.
Practically speaking, however, I think the deal is cut. The "fuzzy" bishops may have lost at the June bishops meeting, and the "burn-'em-at-the-stakers" appear to be moving with quiet Vatican backing.
sitetest
"They do this, because the Church has tacitly allowed them to.
Meaning individual priests, right? Priests do not determine Church doctrine. Priests that knowingly promote heretical doctrines are formal heretics."
I'm quite sure that's true, but the fact remains.
Well, technically, that IS schism. The Church is either in full communion with itself or it isn't. If it isn't, then the fabric of the Church is torn. That's the definition of schism. We've been in material schism since the USCCB ruling that blessed this situation of geography determining when you can receive. But, since no one has publicly said it out loud, it isn't formal schism yet.
Thank you. I posted before seeing your link. Very good article. The church may yet get back on track.
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