Posted on 10/19/2004 7:32:20 AM PDT by Remole
VATICAN CITY (CNS) -- An official at the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith said a California canon lawyer seeking a formal decree of heresy against Sen. John F. Kerry of Massachusetts, Democratic presidential nominee, has misrepresented his contact with the Vatican office.
"The Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith has had no contact with Mr. (Marc) Balestrieri," said Dominican Father Augustine DiNoia, undersecretary of the congregation.
"His claim that the private letter he received from (Dominican) Father Basil Cole is a Vatican response is completely without merit," Father DiNoia told Catholic News Service Oct. 19, declining to discuss the matter further.
(Excerpt) Read more at catholicnews.com ...
I figured this story was too good to be true.
Now the Curial Europhiles start the counter-attack.
crud......
***I figured this story was too good to be true.***
Actually, the letter really didn't say all that much. From what I could understand it said that if you are a Catholic and knowingly refute the Church's teachings on morality, you can excommunicate yourself. The second part said that doing that is not a Church excommunication, which would have to be decided by the proper authorities, presumably after some sort of trial.
Heck, that's the way I've always understood it.
Well, maybe people will finally quit posting it in Breaking News every hour.
So, I wonder if the MSM pool reporters will start asking Kerry what he thinks the chances are that he will be formally excommunicated?
"The Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith has had no contact with Mr. (Marc) Balestrieri," said Dominican Father Augustine DiNoia, undersecretary of the congregation.Sounds to me like someone overplayed his hand.
HA HA HA HA HA HA! I feel so sorry for all of you who were hoping to strike the match and burn Kerry at the stake in Boston Commons.
Ro 14:12,13
Therefore every one of us shall render account to God for himself.
Let us not therefore judge one another any more.
But judge this rather, that you put not a stumbling block
or a scandal in your brother's way.
What kind of man can within the span of a single sentence
misquote scripture, commit heresy, and scandalize with a tone
the sins of another to the entire planet for political gain?
KERRY: We're all God's children, Bob. And I think if you were to talk to Dick
Cheney's daughter, who is a lesbian, she would tell you that she's being
who she was, she's being who she was born as.
Romans 9:8
That is, They which are the children of the flesh,
these are not the children of God:
but the children of the promise are counted for the seed.
Ec 7:30
Only this I have found, that GOD MADE man right, and he hath entangled
himself with an infinity of questions.
Who is as the wise man? and who hath known the resolution of the word
I told you it was unofficial and wouldn't get anywhere.
Here's confirmation.
Just as I predicted in my response to the first postings of this story.
This was all wishful thinking on the part of some. The RCC was never going to publicly excommunicate John Kerry. They're not going to excommunicate any political figures. That just isn't how the Church works any longer. They learned their lesson centuries ago when an excommunication of an English King caused a break with the Church.
Those who thought this was going to be some "October surprise" were mistaken. It's a non-story now.
Better attack Kerry on real issues. False attacks do the cause no good.
For his sake, Kerry better hope that he doesn't burn somewhere else.
Just because he's not excommunicated doesn't mean he's in good standing in the Catholic Church.
And, it appears a majority of Catholics know that.
Weep for yourself and for your children.
Dear sinkspur,
Maybe.
We'll see.
I think things are a little murky, and we'll just have to be patient to see what's up.
sitetest
That old soft show (step, ball, chain, backpeddle, backpeddle, thud) from the crowd who havee been 'smoking with satan'......
That old soft shoe (step, ball, chain, backpeddle, backpeddle, thud) from the crowd who havee been 'smoking with satan'......
It may do something after the election is over, but Balesteri jumped the gun with his claim.
"Maybe.
We'll see.
"
I don't think so. This whole line of stuff should be dropped. When a REAL official of the RCC comes out and chides this De Fide group for publicizing this false excommunication, that should be the end of the discussion.
This was never going anywhere, and is nothing but a distraction from the real issues.
Kerry will NOT be excommunicated, and will continue to receive the sacrament at mass.
Don't cackle so loudly, you might hurt yourself.
Actually you should feel sorry for the Catholic Church which allows politics and public opinion to decide its doctrines. But this is nothing new. Marriage a Sacrament? Just know the right person or somone on the Tribunal and get an Annulment. Or, whatever happened to opposition to birth control? Oh well, I think the Pope at least believes what he says. But the Vatican has always lived in fear of offending anyone in Europe.
I've never understood people who say they want to change their church to fit their personal beliefs. If you don't believe in their doctrines, find a church you can follow. There are certainly plenty to choose from.
SHAME!
Ouch. Accurate, but ouch.
"They're flip-flopping like they did with "The Passion."
"
Who's flip-flopping? This is the first OFFICIAL statement from the Vatican on this issue. The other letter was most definitely UNOFFICIAL and carried no weight whatever.
The person who wrote the letter to De Fide was speaking unofficially, not as a spokesperson for the RCC. De Fide took it as an official response, or misled people into believing that it was official.
They've been slapped down by the Vatican. It's one more example of why these "news" stories from miscellaneous sites are so dangerous. Yet, they get posted, as this one did, multiple times on FR, then distributed widely in emails.
Some of us warned yesterday, when everyone was all worked up over this "excommunication," that it wasn't any sort of official announcement from the RCC, and that it was unlikely to happen.
That doesn't make us Kerry supporters. It just makes us concerned with truthful statements. This was a hoax, essentially. Now we have the real story, direct from the Vatican. There is no excommunication. There will be no excommunication.
Back to real reasons not to vote for Kerry, OK?
What flip flop? Father Augustine DiNoia is merely restating that the letter to Marc Balestrieri was unofficial.
Dear sinkspur,
"The Vatican is not going to inject itself, in any way, into this political campaign.
"It may do something after the election is over, but Balesteri jumped the gun with his claim."
Well, I don't think I'd said otherwise. In fact, I'd speculated yesterday, that the Vatican is trying to say these things quietly for now, but will deal with this issue soon after the election, specifically to avoid the charge of trying to interfere with this election.
Then, things would be clear for the '06 election, but no one would be able to claim they'd try to interfere with particular races for specific offices.
Based on the "unofficial" nature of the correspondence, and what sartorius had linked to in First Things, I'd speculated that the bishops and the Vatican had decided to act, and that the party trying to keep things "fuzzy" had lost. But I also speculated that the "fuzzy" party had won a compromise not to let this stuff get loud until after Nov 2.
It may be that Mr. Balestrieri has jumped the gun.
But I'm not quite buying the categorical denial of the Vatican priest.
I do think that there still may be a lot of stuff that happens after the election.
And clearly, Mr. Kerry is excommunicated latae sententiae.
sitetest
Kerry's record on abortion isn't a "real" reason not to vote for him?? Yeah right!
And never should have been started in the first place.
"It may be that Mr. Balestrieri has jumped the gun.
But I'm not quite buying the categorical denial of the Vatican priest.
I do think that there still may be a lot of stuff that happens after the election.
"
It's not going to happen. The RCC is NOT going to get into the business of excommunicating powerful US politicians for supporting abortion. That would be a foolish act on their part.
They tried that once and look what happened: The Church of England was formed. The RCC learned their lesson at that time, and won't be repeating that mistake.
"Kerry's record on abortion isn't a "real" reason not to vote for him?? Yeah right!"
Of course it's a reason. Kerry supports abortion. He has said so. So...use that against him. Don't say he has been excommunicated or that he will be. That's false. Instead, simply point out that he supports abortion. How simple.
Using false information in a debate is foolish.
It isn't a counter attack, its the truth. That thing wasn't a Vatican response. As I said before all this noise is Balestrieri trying to drum up excitement and support for his group.
In fact, the Vatican didn't do anything here, and they are now merely stating that fact publically. They won't act until after the election, and even then it will be left to the local biship to decide whether to act or not.
patent
"This whole line of stuff should be dropped
And never should have been started in the first place."
Dear MineralMan,
"Kerry will NOT be excommunicated, and will continue to receive the sacrament at mass."
He will continue to receive Holy Communion, at least for now.
His excommunication ought not, however, be framed in the future tense. The letter of theologian makes clear that he is currently excommunicated latae sententiae. One might say the theologian is wrong. But the theologian is not positing that the Church ought to take action to excommunicate Mr. Kerry sometime in the near or distant future.
The theologian has stated that those who are Catholic politicans who support a legal right to abortion are already in a state of excommunication. Either the theologian is right, or he is wrong. It may be an unsettled question to many right now, but the answer already exists objectively.
It merely needs to be recognized or clarified.
Although the offense is different, Mr. Kerry, and Mr. Cuomo, and Ms. Collins, and Mr. Pataki, et. al., are all excommunicated in the same manner as a Catholic doctor who has performed an abortion. It is an automatic operation of law as a result of the act itself that causes the excommunication. Neither pope nor bishop nor theologian need make any mention, give any formal notice or recognition that the doctor is now excommunicated.
Similarly with pro-choice Catholic politicians. If the theologian's reasoning is correct, then these all are excommunicated. It requires no formal notice or recognition.
Although that would be nice.
sitetest
Don't say he has been excommunicated or that he will be. That's false.To say that Sen. Kerry has been officially excommunicated is false, but to say that he has been excommunicated by his own actions is true.
The Vatican needs a new flag, preferably one with a two headed creature.
Who said I was trumping up this letter? I never intended to vote for Kerry. All I was doing was responding to Siobhan's comment, which was basically saying the same thing.
I agree.
That'll work, it's ecumenical.....
So WHY doesn't he excommunicate Kerry from the Catholic Church?
WHY?
He should he shunned and excommunicated.
Going down this road is a losing proposition. There are many undecided voters who will be turned off. It will make pro-lifers feel good but they're already voting for Bush. No gain with this approach.
The best explanation for this situation is that the Vatican avoids direct confrontation at all costs; and all the more when such confrontation could be interpreted as interference with the internal political situation in the US. As others on this and other threads have said: as a practical matter, Kerry is already outside the community of Catholic faithful and doctrine (= excommunication laetae sententiae, i.e., by the very act of speaking and voting pro-choice and on other matters). But a formal declaration of excommunication would involve a formal legal process, and I am sure that the Vatican wants to avoid that. The question remains: if (horribile visu!) Kerry is elected president, then at some point the Church authorities in Boston, Washington or Rome will have to make some clear statement about his belonging to the Catholic community; and when that happens, there will be many on this forum who will cry out, well, why then didn't the Vatican speak out before the election??
Dear ladyjane,
Frankly, if they asked me, I'd PREFER they do this after the election. Nov 3. So that it would be clear that the bishops and the Vatican aren't playing politics.
But for devout Catholics who try to be obedient to the binding teachings of our Church, and who fight for the right to life, it is important that the Church finally make clear what the truth is.
There are people in my own parish who believe it is acceptable to favor abortion rights and nonetheless be a "practicing Catholic." It's difficult to persuade them otherwise when the bishops do little concerning folks who loudly proclaim both that they favor abortion rights and that they are practicing, devout, faithful Catholics.
When Ted Kennedy is asked about this, he says it isn't his problem, after all, it's the bishops. THEY let him persist in his position.
He's right.
It comes down to a matter of integrity, a matter of honesty. It ought not to come down to a matter of politics. That's why I think this ought to be done after Nov 2.
But as a matter of integrity and honesty, the Church needs to say formally, officially, loudly, if you can't agree with the Church's teaching on this rather foundational issue of morality, human rights, and social justice, then stop pretending to be a Catholic. We no longer recognize you as a Catholic in good standing.
It's just simple honesty.
As to the repercussions, let the chips fall where they may. Oh well. The Church has suffered worse things. If folks rise up and drive devout Catholics back into the catacombs, if they drive us from civil society, and punish us for being faithful witnesses to the Gospel of Jesus, so be it. I'd hate that. I'd personally find it gravely difficult. I don't ask for it, I don't want it.
I'd need God's grace to bear it. For God's grace, I'd pray.
But even persecution is to be preferred to the current state of dishonesty.
sitetest
I suppose you are correct, but the facts in the letter accurately reflect Catholic thought, the reason they are 'un-official' is that the requestor was unofficial and more, the response was due to a request TO the Vatican so it was a Vatican response, unofficially.
The old Holy Roman Empire banner perhaps?
"This whole line of stuff should be dropped
And never should have been started in the first place."
How is this different from the SwiftVets and their pursuit of Truth and Honor? Should they have remained silent?
"How is this different from the SwiftVets and their pursuit of Truth and Honor? Should they have remained silent? "
That's pretty simple, really. In the case of the Swiftboat Veterans for Truth, it was a matter of a bunch of people who did the same job Kerry did stating the information they had. No official body is needed, nor is one invoked.
In the case of this so-called excommunication, the pretense was that the Church had, somehow, spoken. It had not. It has now. And what they said to this unofficial spokesperson was to STFU. It's that simple. If you read the whole article, you'd see that.
One is true; the other false. One may argue that Kerry has excommunicated himself, but one may not argue that the Church has acted.
This was a hoax, essentially.
Wrong.
Now we have the real story, direct from the Vatican.
The story remains as it has been told. An official request was answered unofficially.
There is no excommunication. There will be no excommunication.
False. Objectively false. There has been no FORMAL excommunication. Senator Kerry and the other abortion supporting Catholic politicians have excommunicated themselves by their actions.
Disclaimer: Opinions posted on Free Republic are those of the individual posters and do not necessarily represent the opinion of Free Republic or its management. All materials posted herein are protected by copyright law and the exemption for fair use of copyrighted works.