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The SHADOW Behind the Middle East Peace Conference
Anti-CommunistAnalyst.com ^

Posted on 10/21/2004 8:08:20 PM PDT by TapTheSource

Anti-communist analyst note:

[Even though this important article has been written 10 years ago by comparing the facts with the reality of the situation in the Middle East today, the facts of this article speak for themselves. Russian communist deceptive methods are clearly working without any western intelligence services' notice and possible subsequent measures.Published with permission given by Inside Story Communications.HM note]

Inside Story: World Report July, 1994

The SHADOW behind the Middle East Peace Conference

Copyright (c) 1994 by Inside Story Communications

Since at least 1931, international Communism has sought to conquer the Middle East through the "pan-Arab" movement.1 According to plans, individual Arab nations would be "liberated" from colonial rule, then fused into a united Arab regional government-a precursor to world government. Strategically, the Middle East contains such vital assets as the Suez Canal and oil reserves, and provides access to the Mediterranean Sea as well as to three continents.

Naturally, the formation of the state of Israel in 1948 began interfering with Communist plans. Thus the Communists quickly set about to destroy that Jewish nation. The pro-Soviet Nasser regime of Egypt created the Palestine Liberation Organization (PLO) in 1964, and placed in its leadership such recruits as Yasser Arafat, a veteran of the Communist revolution in Algeria.2 The PLO's mission: sponsor revolutions to overthrow the non-Communist governments of Israel, Iran, Turkey, and the Arab nations.

But after five wars and three decades of revolution, the Communists could see by 1989 that the frontal approach would not soon topple Jerusalem. At that point, the Soviet Bloc switched to a new strategy of deception. By faking the death of Communism, Moscow has finally opened the door to its victory. And behind its newly-accelerating drive to eliminate Israel stands its architect, the latest head of the Soviet secret police.

His name is Yevgeniy Primakov.

[Links added by A-CA].

The shadow is cast...

By the end of the 1973 Yom Kippur War, the Soviets could see that Israel would never be defeated through direct conflict. Despite early successes while invading Israel's buffer zones in the Sinai and the Golan Heights, Syrian and Egyptian forces soon found themselves in full retreat. Realizing that Israel would first have to yield its occupied territories before it would become militarily vulnerable, the Soviets chose a new tactic known as the "Phased Plan."

The PLO officially adopted this plan in June, 1974.3 Phase 1 would involve pressuring Israel to withdraw from its territories, upon which the PLO would establish a People's Republic of Palestine. In Phase 2, the heavily-armed Communist state would serve as the launching point for a Soviet-backed invasion of Israel.

How could Israel be induced to surrender strategic land-to the PLO, no less? The Communists decided to call for a "peace conference" between Israel, the Arab states, and the PLO. The catch, moreover, was that the Soviet Union would co-sponsor the talks. Such an international conference would pit Israel against all other participants, heightening pressure for concessions.

Soviet official Andrei Gromyko started the process in 1973, offering to open diplomatic relations with Israel in return for a peace conference. The Israelis first refused, but the damage inflicted by the Yom Kippur War changed their minds. In late 1973, Israel agreed to international talks in Geneva, Switzerland. The Soviets co-sponsored the meeting, though still refusing to recognize Israel diplomatically. Only the PLO was not officially allowed to participate.

Henry Kissinger [Link added by A-CA] played the key role in furthering Soviet aims.

Israeli journalist Matti Golan reported that, during the first few days of the Yom Kippur War, while the Communist governments of Yugoslavia, Algeria, Libya, Iraq, and the Soviet Union were re-supplying Egypt and Syria,4 Kissinger had delayed the emergency shipment of U.S. arms to Israel. Then, once Israel had regained its military balance and scored decisive victories, he went behind the Israelis' backs and negotiated a ceasefire directly with the Soviets. Nor was this difficult for him; as Soviet ambassador Anatoliy Dobrynin later revealed, the Soviets had quietly appointed Kissinger as their representative at the same time that he was representing the United States.5 Kissinger then pressured Israel into accepting the ceasefire, which returned portions of the Sinai peninsula to Egypt.

By 1977 the Soviets were trying to restart the Geneva talks, this time in an expanded format. Yevgeniy Primakov appeared on the scene, albeit secretly, to meet with Israeli Prime Minister Menachem Begin.

Primakov again dangled the promise of Soviet diplomatic relations, this time in exchange for Israel allowing the PLO into the Geneva talks. Begin refused.6

Later that year, the Soviet timetable was temporarily thrown off by the Camp David peace accords between Egypt and Israel, which were negotiated directly between the two parties. Nevertheless, the Soviets moved patiently forward, gradually preparing the noose with which to hang Israel.

Primakov was ascending the ranks of Soviet power, gradually taking control of Middle East policy. By 1983, he had become Vice President of the World Peace Council (WPC), an internationally active front for the Soviet KGB founded in 1950.7 Its president was Romesh Chandra, a Central Committee member of the Communist Party of India. But the real power resided in the hands of the Soviet KGB officer at Chandra's side. The WPC not only organized the disarmament movement in the West, but also served as a center for Soviet coordination of terrorist groups around the world, including the PLO.8 At that same time, Primakov held the post of Deputy Chairman of the Soviet Peace Committee,9 which worked out of the same Moscow office as the Soviet Afro-Asian Solidarity Committee. These groups have operated as conduits through which the KGB sends weapons and other logistical support to the PLO.10

Primakov was busy implementing Soviet policy toward Israel. In September, 1982, the Soviet Union made the first official call for an international Middle East peace conference, to negotiate for a PLO state in the Israeli territories.11 Soviet influence at the United Nations led that organization, unsurprisingly, to endorse the call in 1983. Echoing the Soviets, the U.N. called for "the Palestine Liberation Organization, the representative of the Palestinian people, to participate... in all efforts, deliberations and conferences on the Middle East" for "the establishment of an independent Palestinian state in Palestine."12 Under Primakov's growing power,

Communist parties throughout the world soon joined in the chorus.

...and lengthens...

By the time Mikhail Gorbachev was taking over in 1985, the Soviet government was openly boasting that a Middle East peace conference would be one step on the road to "the ultimate triumph of communism everywhere."13 Primakov was quickly moving into the center of Soviet power, close to Gorbachev himself. Working with the Central Committee's International Department, Primakov led an elite group of Communist strategists in redesigning and accelerating the Soviet drive to destroy Israel. Gorbachev did not even participate in its design, according to foreign minister Eduard Shevardnadze.14

To put his newly-formulated theory into practice, Primakov assumed the role of "special envoy" for Gorbachev during the Persian Gulf crisis in late 1990. He used that position to travel the Middle East, drumming up support for a peace conference to negotiate over Israel's territories.15

In fact, he had already been mobilizing every available tool of diplomacy, revolution, and war to intensify the pressure on Israel. In 1987, he told the Lebanese publication Hawadith that Israel would have to attend, and allow the PLO to participate in, an international meeting before the Soviets would restore diplomatic relations. He visited the capitals of Arab states, using every bit of Soviet influence to push the Arabs into joining the call.16

In 1988, he brought Soviet advisors to Syria as part of a massive drive to arm that Communist satellite, preparing it for a state of war and placing an ominous military threat on Israel's northern perimeter.17 Revolutionary action in the West Bank and Gaza Strip was meanwhile instigated by the PLO, the Palestinian Communist Party, and Islamic Jihad starting in December of 1986-a full year before the intifada was officially recognized and named.18

Analyzing the prospects for forcing Israel into peace talks, Yasser Arafat [alleged KGB agent - HM note] could boldly declare in 1987 that "there is now for the first time an actual international consensus on the question of an international conference on a Middle East settlement" [emphasis in original].19 But despite the growing momentum, Israel itself persistently refused to enter such loaded talks. Primakov needed one more element to complete the push: a war.

The perfect man for the job was Saddam Hussein, longtime dictator of the Communist government in Iraq. Since the Iraqi-Soviet Friendship Treaty of 1972, the Iraqi secret police and military had become mere extensions of their Soviet counterparts.20 The majority of Iraqi weapons were Soviet-supplied, and five to six thousand Soviet "advisors" ran the Iraqi state from within.21 Primakov himself presumably supervised the Soviet arms shipments to Iraq leading up to, and during, the 1990 invasion of Kuwait. After Iraq set in motion the Gulf crisis, Primakov visited Hussein as Gorbachev's representative. According to British intelligence analyst Christopher Story, Primakov told Hussein to demand an international conference between Israel and the PLO as a precondition to leaving Kuwait.22 Hussein obeyed, and after the Persian Gulf War had ended in 1991, Hussein's demand was adopted by the Bush administration. Finally the Israelis could no longer resist the political heat, and attended the conference in Madrid, Spain, that October.

Primakov had completed stage one in the drive to destroy Israel.

...until darkness falls....

The Soviet Union, mainly through its KGB strategist Primakov, had carefully designed and executed the entire Middle East peace conference since 1973. Thus the "death" of Communism in 1989, and especially the "breakup" of the Soviet Union in 1991, should have ended the entire process. The whole edifice of delicately applied pressure, fragile alliances, and Communist deception should have disintegrated, leaving the PLO isolated and impotent. Most importantly, Primakov and his fellow Communist leaders should have had to flee Russia to avoid prosecution, as happened to Nazi criminals after World War II.

In fact, the exact opposite chillingly materialized. Upon seizing power in the new Russia, Boris Yeltsin promptly reorganized and expanded the KGB, making it more powerful and active than ever before. Top Communists retained their positions, and all Soviet policies continued as before-except in a newly accelerated mode. What of Primakov? He was immediately promoted, becoming Director of the Foreign Intelligence Service, the main arm of the new KGB. This places him in charge of an estimated 500,000 agents worldwide, operating in Europe, the United States, the Middle East, and elsewhere.23

Primakov quickly laid to rest any notions that the various Soviet republics or Eastern European nations would be allowed any independence from Moscow. At a December, 1991, press conference, he openly admitted that his agency was exercising its powers "to maintain a common military, economic and central intelligence network among the Republics of the former Soviet Union."24 Tens of thousands of secret police officers from East Germany and other Eastern European nations had already been incorporated into the KGB during the 1989 changes.25

At a press conference in late 1993, Primakov confirmed the warlike attitude of the "former" Soviet Union by warning NATO that he and his fellow Soviets might assume a new military posture toward the West at any time. Polish defector Zdislaw Rurarz described a follow-up question from a reporter:

Primakov was asked whether his presentation of the issue was in any way endorsed by President Boris Yeltsin. Surprisingly enough, he said that there was no need for that!26

Despite Yeltsin's membership in the Soviet Communist Party since 1961, even he serves as a mere figurehead.27 He takes his orders from the likes of Primakov and the rest of the KGB leadership, all of them hardened Communists following long-term strategy.

In the Middle East, this is being translated into a PLO victory over Israel. The alleged collapse of Communism has thrown anti-Communist forces in the West into disarray. No longer recognizing where PLO terrorism or the drive for a peace conference come from, confused anti-Communists in all countries have abandoned political opposition to such Soviet moves-effectively turning over the political arena to the left. Now that the Communists can move rapidly without significant resistance, Israel is finally yielding control of the West Bank and Gaza Strip to the PLO. And Israeli Prime Minister Ytzhak Rabin has since offered to give away to Golan Heights to Communist Syria.

Unless Americans and Israelis wake up soon, Soviet forces will be dismantling the remains of a neutralized, demoralized Israel.

references

1 Agwani, M.S., Communism in the Arab East, Asia Publishing House, New York, 1969, p. 15.

2 Rees, J., "Why Americans must oppose the P.L.O.," The Review of the News, Oct. 17, 1979, p. 41.

3 Netanyahu, B., A Place Among the Nations, Bantam Books, New York, 1993, pp. 219-226.

4 Sadat, A., In Search of Identity, publisher unknown, 1978, pp. 253, 255, 264, 267; Bard, M.G. and Himelfarb, J., Myths and Facts, Near East Report, Washington DC, 1992, pp. 77-78.

5 Allen, G., Kissinger: The Secret Side of the Secretary of State, '76 Press, Seal Beach, Calif., 1976, pp. 71, 78.

6 Story, C., "Business as usual in the Middle East," Soviet Analyst, Jan. 1992, p. 15.

7 Ibid., p. 18.

8 Rees, J., Ed., The War Called Peace, Western Goals, Alexandria, VA, 1982, pp. 8-9.

9 Story, Op cit., p. 18.

10 Barron, J., KGB Today: The Hidden Hand, Reader's Digest Press, New York, 1983, pp. 264-265.

11 Davydkov, R., Ed., The Palestine Question, Progress Publishers, Moscow, 1984, p. 23.

12 Ibid., pp. 235-248.

13 Petrenko, F. and Popov, V., Soviet Foreign Policy: Objectives and Principles, Progress Publishers, Moscow, 1985, pp. 155, 186.

14 Story, C., Op cit., p. 19.

15 The New York Times, Nov. 17, 1990, as cited in Story, C., Op cit., p. 14.

16 Story, C., Op cit., p. 19; Ramati, Y., Global Affairs, Spring 1989, as cited in Story, Op cit., p. 17.

17 Story, C., Op cit., p. 20.

18 "Palestine: Appeal for solidarity," political statement by the Palestinian Communist Party, the Democratic Front for the Liberation of Palestine, and the Popular Front for the Liberation of Palestine, Information Bulletin, March 1987, pp. 39-40; Schiff, Z. and Ya'ari, E., Intifada, Simon and Schuster, New York, 1990, chapter 2 and pp. 101-105, 198-202.

19 Arafat, Y., "We are optimistic," World Marxist Review, Sept. 1987, p. 49.

20 al-Khalil, S., Republic of Fear, University of California Press, Berkeley, 1989, pp. 12, 66.

21 Wagman, R., "Did Soviets aid Iraq?", San Gabriel Valley Tribune, Sept. 5, 1990; Lee, R.W., "Our Soviet 'Ally'," The New American, March 12, 1991, pp. 22-23.

22 Story, C., Op cit., p. 15.

23 MacAlvany, D.S., "Russian strategic deception: The 'new' Communist threat," The MacAlvany Intelligence Advisor, Jan., 1994, pp. 20-22.

24 Story, C., Op cit., p. 13.

25 MacAlvany, D.S., Op cit., p. 22.

26 Ibid., p. 22.

27 Ibid., p. 12.


TOPICS: Extended News; Foreign Affairs; Israel; Russia; War on Terror
KEYWORDS: israel; russia
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A little blast from the past that might help explain Russia's aims in the Middle East.
1 posted on 10/21/2004 8:08:20 PM PDT by TapTheSource
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To: SJackson; dennisw; Cachelot; Yehuda; Nix 2; veronica; Catspaw; knighthawk; Alouette; Optimist; ...

ping


2 posted on 10/21/2004 8:09:28 PM PDT by TapTheSource
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To: TapTheSource

The European Arab Dialogue, or Eurabia, runs the show now over there. This is another reason why our taking down Saddam wasn't too popular with the EU - the Arab League owns Brussels.


3 posted on 10/21/2004 8:17:18 PM PDT by datura (Let's roll? No, Lock and load.)
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To: TapTheSource
Within historically short time (40-50yrs, probably earlier given most recent oil prices) Middle East oil will be depleted to the point where there will be no alternative to coal/oil conversion. At that time ME will lose all geostrategical importance.
Given the traditions and mores of native ME populations, what sane person would even dream of gainfully incorporating them into some united system like world government?
The Russian aim in ME are of economical (they are oil exporters) and geostrategic nature. Both can be only short- to middle term.
4 posted on 10/21/2004 8:29:55 PM PDT by GSlob
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To: datura

"The European Arab Dialogue, or Eurabia, runs the show now over there. This is another reason why our taking down Saddam wasn't too popular with the EU - the Arab League owns Brussels."

The founding of Israel and Pres. Bush's intervention in Iraq certainly threw a monkey wrench into plans for a pan-Arab confederacy! But try to explain that to the American people....forget about it.


5 posted on 10/21/2004 8:30:34 PM PDT by TapTheSource
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To: TapTheSource

An interesting article, and I appreciate the ping. Does this source have a track-record to speak of--I'm afraid that I'm not familiar with it.


6 posted on 10/21/2004 9:07:48 PM PDT by Buggman (Your failure to be informed does not make me a kook.)
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To: datura
Jerusalem is the mid-point of the Middle East. Many people and groups throughout the ages have used Jerusalem and the Holy Land as their foundation on which to work out their world-view from.

All of the great "leaders" of history and today are going to realise very soon however that the Master of the Universe has other plans in mind for that part of the world, and for the entire world. The current day "leaders" of the world will have to submit to a higher authority very soon, for their own wellbeing and for the wellbeing of humankind.
7 posted on 10/21/2004 9:11:45 PM PDT by Bandaneira (The Third Temple/House for All Nations/World Peace Centre...Coming Soon...)
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Comment #8 Removed by Moderator

To: American in Israel

ping


9 posted on 10/21/2004 9:33:35 PM PDT by TapTheSource
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To: TapTheSource

"Unless Americans and Israelis wake up soon, Soviet forces will be dismantling the remains of a neutralized, demoralized Israel."


Makes one wonder if a JFKerry administration is the missing key???

Thanks for the ping.


10 posted on 10/21/2004 11:04:47 PM PDT by Just mythoughts
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To: TapTheSource

I've never seen this before, but as a Christian who follows biblical prophecy, I'm always interested in Russian machinations regarding Israel, since Russia is almost certainly the prophesied invader from the north.

MM


11 posted on 10/21/2004 11:12:40 PM PDT by MississippiMan (Americans should not be sacrificed on the altar of political correctness.)
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To: Luis Gonzalez

ping


12 posted on 10/22/2004 12:02:12 AM PDT by TapTheSource
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To: dennisw; Cachelot; Yehuda; Nix 2; veronica; Catspaw; knighthawk; Alouette; Optimist; weikel; ...
If you'd like to be on this middle east/political ping list, please FR mail me.
13 posted on 10/22/2004 5:51:19 AM PDT by SJackson (They're not Americans. They're just journalists, Col George Connell, USMC)
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To: TapTheSource
Naturally, the formation of the state of Israel in 1948 began interfering with Communist plans.

By the way, Stalin (for all his faults) was the first to recognize Israel and the Arab armies were led by British and French officers.

By the way, didn't you just get banned for the exact same articles last week?

14 posted on 10/22/2004 6:07:03 AM PDT by jb6 (Truth = Christ)
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To: Cronos; A. Pole; Destro; FormerLib; MarMema; ninenot; Honorary Serb

GIJoke/Nyquest alert. Man, this guy just doesn't give up. Signed on the 19th and posted this. He is consistent, got to give him that. Let the party begin.


15 posted on 10/22/2004 6:08:48 AM PDT by jb6 (Truth = Christ)
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To: TapTheSource
At a press conference in late 1993, Primakov confirmed the warlike attitude of the "former" Soviet Union by warning NATO that he and his fellow Soviets might assume a new military posture toward the West at any time. Polish defector Zdislaw Rurarz described a follow-up question from a reporter

1993, right, when Yeltsin was bombing the parliment with Clinton's advice and approval and NATO was stretching eastwards. Yup, those soviets under every bed.

16 posted on 10/22/2004 6:10:37 AM PDT by jb6 (Truth = Christ)
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To: TapTheSource
The perfect man for the job was Saddam Hussein, longtime dictator of the Communist government in Iraq.

Not quite there smart guy, the Baathasts were Socialists installed by the CIA (Saddam and his two predicessors) to over throw the Communists who had overthrown the king. At least try to look smart and get your facts in order.

17 posted on 10/22/2004 6:12:02 AM PDT by jb6 (Truth = Christ)
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To: TapTheSource
Despite Yeltsin's membership in the Soviet Communist Party since 1961, even he serves as a mere figurehead.27 He takes his orders from the likes of Primakov and the rest of the KGB leadership, all of them hardened Communists following long-term strategy. In the Middle East, this is being translated into a PLO victory over Israel. The alleged collapse of Communism has thrown anti-Communist forces in the West into disarray. No longer recognizing where PLO terrorism or the drive for a peace conference come from, confused anti-Communists in all countries have abandoned political opposition to such Soviet moves-effectively turning over the political arena to the left.

Guess the Israelies are the most confused of all since Russia is Israel's second largest trading partner and closest allie in the area and since Powell was the one sending Arafart $60 million. Your tin beeni is on toooooo tight.

18 posted on 10/22/2004 6:14:11 AM PDT by jb6 (Truth = Christ)
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To: MississippiMan; Cronos
I'm always interested in Russian machinations regarding Israel, since Russia is almost certainly the prophesied invader from the north.

Funny thing, this only appears in American fundimentalist "special" translations. Funny how 96% of Christiandom just doesn't have your insight and wisdom.

19 posted on 10/22/2004 6:15:37 AM PDT by jb6 (Truth = Christ)
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To: Just mythoughts
"Unless Americans and Israelis wake up soon, Soviet forces will be dismantling the remains of a neutralized, demoralized Israel." Makes one wonder if a JFKerry administration is the missing key???

Which Soviet Forces? The US/NATO armed Egypt, Jordan, Saudi Arabia (with known WMD and missiles)?

20 posted on 10/22/2004 6:22:45 AM PDT by jb6 (Truth = Christ)
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To: GSlob

Welcoming GIJoel's latest incarnation back? :0)


21 posted on 10/22/2004 6:26:34 AM PDT by jb6 (Truth = Christ)
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To: jb6
"Which Soviet Forces? The US/NATO armed Egypt, Jordan, Saudi Arabia (with known WMD and missiles)?"


Well now who did we fight in the Korean War? That was Stalin's War, and he made a pact with the RED Chinese in 1950 to send down into N.Korea 120,000 troops while he, Stalin gave secret air support. That was the first UN War and Stalin was boycotting the UN cause he decided he was not going to set N.Korea free as he had agreed to at the end of WWII. Who armed the Viet Cong in the Vietnam War and who armed Syria, Saddam, Iran, etc... to mention a few???

Remember it was our very own Commies the Clintons that adopted N.Korea from the formerly named Soviet Union and it was with our money that the Clintons and gang gave N.Korea nuclear, all under the Clintons stated foreign policy plan of "EQUALIZE ALL NATIONS".

Communism whether it be 'Soviet' style or Beijing style, Saddam's style, Chirac's style or JfKerry style is of the same religion.... they are 'gods' and they give or take rights.

"Soviet" sure puts people to sleep.
22 posted on 10/22/2004 6:39:50 AM PDT by Just mythoughts
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To: MississippiMan

You follow false prophets.


23 posted on 10/22/2004 7:12:27 AM PDT by Destro (Know your enemy! Help fight Islamic terrorism by visiting johnathangaltfilms.com and jihadwatch.org)
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To: TapTheSource

Fascinating read.


24 posted on 10/22/2004 7:24:23 AM PDT by MissAmericanPie
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To: Just mythoughts
Syria, Saddam, Iran, etc... to mention a few???

Well considering that the CIA put Saddam in place, who armed Saddam? Soviets were busy arming Iran. Can't have it both ways. Where did Saddam get those British and French planes and weapons? Soviet involvement came much later.

As for the Chinese, by the 60's it was we who were those communists' allies and nothing has changed for 40 years.

I don't deny that communism is evil but to run around and point at everyone and scream communism is also stupid. The Russians are not communist nor will they ever return to it. The Chinese are communist in name only, they are facist autocrats. We on the other hand might be due for our own communist experience, we as in the US & EU.

25 posted on 10/22/2004 7:26:33 AM PDT by jb6 (Truth = Christ)
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To: jb6
"I don't deny that communism is evil but to run around and point at everyone and scream communism is also stupid. The Russians are not communist nor will they ever return to it. The Chinese are communist in name only, they are facist autocrats. We on the other hand might be due for our own communist experience, we as in the US & EU."

and your tag line is Truth = Christ... Well in case you have not read Christ said I have foretold you all things.. obviously you have not read what we have been foretold.

The tree of communism may have been chopped down but the roots were left in tact the world over, just waiting for their ultimate leader and "religion" will be the method of operation..... read what was offered Christ when he was tempted by the devil.
26 posted on 10/22/2004 7:55:48 AM PDT by Just mythoughts
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To: Just mythoughts
and your tag line is Truth = Christ... Well in case you have not read Christ said I have foretold you all things.. obviously you have not read what we have been foretold

Funny I read what He fortold but apparently my Bible did not have the special read between the lines verses that yours does.

27 posted on 10/22/2004 8:27:38 AM PDT by jb6 (Truth = Christ)
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To: jb6

"Funny I read what He fortold but apparently my Bible did not have the special read between the lines verses that yours does."

Nothing between any lines all recorded by the prophets... which Christ made one and the same as the NEW.


28 posted on 10/22/2004 8:28:56 AM PDT by Just mythoughts
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To: Just mythoughts; Destro

Ok, verse and chapter where communism is spoken of?


29 posted on 10/22/2004 8:32:30 AM PDT by jb6 (Truth = Christ)
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To: jb6
Start with Genesis 1:1 and proceed..... Look you already believe what you believe and since you are pinging Destro cause you can't stand on your own two feet I am not interested in playing a round robin with people who have closed minds.
30 posted on 10/22/2004 8:34:36 AM PDT by Just mythoughts
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To: Just mythoughts
Start with Genesis 1:1 and proceed.....

Sorry that's a copout. You stated that the Bible states something that it doesn't, now YOU provide the proof. I'm not the one having to defend my argument. Chapter and verse, I'm waiting.

As for Destro, figured I'd share the fun on this Bible revision thread you've started.

31 posted on 10/22/2004 8:40:46 AM PDT by jb6 (Truth = Christ)
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To: jb6

"Sorry that's a copout. You stated that the Bible states something that it doesn't, now YOU provide the proof. I'm not the one having to defend my argument. Chapter and verse, I'm waiting."


No it is not a copout, which "IF" you had read Christ you would not make such a bogus claim. YOu got to understand the BEGINNING which is Genesis to understand what Christ and the rest of the writers of the Bible say.

Genesis sets forth the foundation the beginning and all else is built upon it.

So please lost interest in one who has no foundation.


32 posted on 10/22/2004 8:45:28 AM PDT by Just mythoughts
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To: Just mythoughts
Why, by all means then, educate this poor fool on how Genisis leads to Christ's or the Appostals' words on Communism. Show me this mystical link. You make a bold statement, no proof. You make psuedo supporting statements, no proof. And when questioned you accuse me of not understanding Genisis (which I do) thus not seeing your proof.

Like the old commercial: Where's the beef (proof)?

33 posted on 10/22/2004 9:00:43 AM PDT by jb6 (Truth = Christ)
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To: The_Reader_David; George W. Bush; MarMema

You guys will have fun on this thread.


34 posted on 10/22/2004 9:01:38 AM PDT by jb6 (Truth = Christ)
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To: Just mythoughts; jb6
The tree of communism may have been chopped down but the roots were left in tact the world over, just waiting for their ultimate leader and "religion" will be the method of operation.

I think you are correct! Communisim has taken root in America - even fooled and tempted a rightous man like Bush - like Satan tempted Adam and Eve. They are the Trotskyite Neo-cons whose coils have this nation in a Satanic vice grip. I have seen the Anti-Christ - and it just may well be us!

Am I making it up? No! It is in the Bible! Where? Read Genisis on! Duh!!

35 posted on 10/22/2004 9:06:29 AM PDT by Destro (Know your enemy! Help fight Islamic terrorism by visiting johnathangaltfilms.com and jihadwatch.org)
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To: jb6
TapTheSource
Since Oct 19, 2004

No doubt another of the Birchie invaders.

36 posted on 10/22/2004 9:29:58 AM PDT by MarMema (Sharon is my hero)
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To: Destro
They've never even been to Russia but they think we are a free country.

The health care organization which employs me bought all of their flu vaccine from a maker who did not contaminate it, and then the local government - who bought all of their vaccine from the wrong company and thus ended up with none in the end - "comandeered" half of our vaccine from us.

37 posted on 10/22/2004 9:33:06 AM PDT by MarMema (Sharon is my hero)
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To: MarMema

If we had true capitalism, then the FDA would only certify them as being clean. The lack of supply would drive up prices, making a very lucrative market and pulling in all excess from Canada, EU, Russia, Australia. Meanwhile every company in the market would be ramping up production, thus the growing supply (which would eventually over take demand) and maybe even drive prices below the original. IF we had a true capitalistic system.


38 posted on 10/22/2004 9:39:48 AM PDT by jb6 (Truth = Christ)
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To: Just mythoughts; jb6

Puting aside Russia as the stiking point for a moment...

"The following are inarguable, Marxist-Leninist Communist Totalitarian states:

* Cuba
* DPRK
* Myanmar
* Belarus
* Angola
* Laos

And in the category of Communist states who allow a bit of "capitalism" ala the NEP:

* The PRC (Red China)
* Vietnam
* Latvia

In the category of "New Age" crypto-Marxist states:

* Venezuela (rapidly heading toward full-fledged Comm. Rev.)
* Zimbabwe
* South Africa
* Brazil
* And as of their most recent election, Spain

Oh, and then there are all the still active "old hippie radical" type Communists who make up certain Western factions.

Communism is still very much alive."


39 posted on 10/22/2004 10:37:09 AM PDT by TapTheSource
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To: Just mythoughts

When it comes to the ME "Peace" talks it would appear that Russia's NEW POLICY is the same as the OLD (Soviet) POLICY. Very curious in light of the post that got this thread started, no?.




CNN
Sharon to Putin: Israel willing to make 'concessions'
Monday, November 3, 2003 Posted: 11:08 AM EST (1608 GMT)

http://www.cnn.com/2003/WORLD/meast/11/03/mideast/

(Excerpt) Russian President Vladimir Putin, right, welcomes Israeli Prime Minister Ariel Sharon before holding talks Monday.

MOSCOW, Russia (CNN) -- In Moscow for meetings with Russian President Vladimir Putin and other officials, Israeli Prime Minister Ariel Sharon said Monday that Israel is willing to make "concessions in exchange for peace."

"Israel is the only country in the world that is ready to make concessions, even though it hasn't lost a single war," Sharon said, according to Russia's Interfax news agency.

However, Sharon added, Israel will not make concessions on the issue of security.

Putin, at the beginning of the meeting, said that Russia is "intent on taking an active role, as much as it is possible from our side, in the Middle East settlement."

Russia is among those working on a plan for Middle East peace. The so-called road map -- also backed by the United States, United Nations and European Union -- calls for the establishment of an independent Palestinian state and security for Israel.

Sharon and Putin also discussed improving ties between the two countries, noting that trade has increased from $12 million in the 1990s to more than $1 billion today.

In addition, Israeli officials are expected to raise the issue of Iran's nuclear program, which Israel considers a threat. Russia is helping Iran to build a nuclear power plant at Bushehr. The two countries say the plant is for peaceful purposes. Israel is urging Russia to prevent the transfer of any uranium enrichment technology to Iran...


40 posted on 10/22/2004 10:49:13 AM PDT by TapTheSource
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To: jb6; Just mythoughts; SJackson

"Ok, verse and chapter where communism is spoken of?"

End Times prophecy is a topic that covers much more than just Communism. Whether the Communists takeover in Europe, or whether Europe absorbes the "former" Communists countries, the Bible clearly states that a revived Roman Empire (to include Russia), led by the anti-christ, will cause all who remain on earth to worship him, and will one day make war on Israel (but will really be waging war on God Himself). God intervenes in this war and utterly and totally destroys the forces of Satan. The EU increasingly fits the bill of the prophesied revival of the Roman Empire, not to mention the prophetic references to End Times references to Babylon. Could the EU be a fusion of the Endtimes depiction of the Revived Roman Empire and Mystical Babylon? Their symbols certainly seem to suggest so. If the people on the EU poster aren't being depicted as Communists, than nobody has ever been depicted as Communists in Communist art.

For more on this, please see the following links (many more could be provided):

http://www.raptureready.com/featured/reagan/dr43.html

http://www.trinity327.com/eutower/tower1a.html


41 posted on 10/22/2004 11:40:25 AM PDT by TapTheSource
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To: TapTheSource
Bible clearly states that a revived Roman Empire (to include Russia)

Ummm, ok, now in what part of make belief history was Russia part of the Roman Empire?

As for the EU, the same was said by protestants of the Holy Roman Empire and the Popes. Some even said this of Charlemaign's Empire. There have been many other candidates along that list too. If it's the EU then it's NATO and we're part of NATO, so I guess by your logic it's off to war we go against God.

42 posted on 10/22/2004 11:47:26 AM PDT by jb6 (Truth = Christ)
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To: jb6
"If it's the EU then it's NATO and we're part of NATO"

Europe is well on its way to replacing NATO with an EU Military Alliance. Haven't you been reading all the articles on the decline and possible death of NATO? Indeed, Rumsfeld has admitted this by referring to W. Europe as "Old Europe." NATO is shifting eastward in search of relevance. But in the end, IMHO, NATO will cease to exist.
43 posted on 10/22/2004 11:57:08 AM PDT by TapTheSource
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To: TapTheSource; Destro; A. Pole
China? Why they now allow property rights and all the poliburo members are CEOs of corporations along with all the generals?

Belarus? They have a petty dictator but they have free enterprise.

Latvia? Best not tell the Latvians, they'd be in a real surprise.

Burma (Mymar) is a militacracy, just like Pakistan. Sorry, not communist. They overthrew the socialists.

The only true communist states are: N.Korea, Vietnam, Laos, Zimbabwe (more or less), Cuba. Venezula might become one but I doubt it. It will go into civil war.

44 posted on 10/22/2004 11:57:31 AM PDT by jb6 (Truth = Christ)
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To: TapTheSource
Gee last I checked NATO was alive and well, I know it doesn't fit your guys' end of time philosophy that you might be part of the union of evil. So you take your guiding philosophy, which interpretation 95% of Christianity doesn't accept, and try to twist it onto all of what happens in the world.

As for the EU's 2 brigades, whoopty do.

45 posted on 10/22/2004 12:00:36 PM PDT by jb6 (Truth = Christ)
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To: TapTheSource

The following outside of the Bible has been the clearest description of the religion of Communism that I have yet come across.

Liberals in this nation using what ever means necessary seek to replace the "Creator" as the giver of "rights" with themselves. Some call it secularism, humanism, or any number of names to deceive as many as possible.




"Letter to My Children
by Whittaker Chambers
from the Foreward to Witness
(Random House,1952).


"Beloved Children,
I am sitting in the kitchen of the little house at Medfield, our second farm which is cut off by the ridge and a quarter-mile across the fields from our home place, where you are. I am writing a book. In it I am speaking to you. But I am also speaking to the world. To both I owe an accounting. It is a terrible book. It is terrible in what it tells about men. If anything, it is more terrible in what it tells about the world in which you live. It is about what the world calls the Hiss-Chambers Case, or even more simply, the Hiss Case. It is about a spy case. All the props of an espionage case are there-foreign agents, household traitors, stolen documents, microfilm, furtive meetings, secret hideaways, phony names, an informer, investigations, trials, official justice."

-snip-
"The revolutionary heart of Communism is not the theatrical appeal: "Workers of the world, unite. You have nothing to lose but your chains. You have a world to gain." It is a simple statement of Karl Marx, further simplified for handy use: "Philosophers have explained the world; it is necessary to change the world." Communists are bound together by no secret oath. The tie that binds them across the frontiers of nations, across barriers of language and differences of class and education, in defiance of religion, morality, truth, law, honor, the weaknesses of the body and the irresolutions of the mind, even unto death, is a simple conviction: It is necessary to change the world. Their power, whose nature baffles the rest of the world, because in a large measure the rest of the world has lost that power, is the power to hold convictions and to act on them. It is the same power that moves mountains; it is also an unfailing power to move men. Communists are that part of mankind which has recovered the power to live or die -to bear witness-for its faith. And it is a simple, rational faith that inspires men to live or die for it."

"It is not new. It is, in fact, man's second oldest faith. Its promise was whispered in the first days of the Creation under the Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil: "Ye shall be as gods." It is the great alternative faith of mankind. Like all great faiths, its force derives from a simple vision. Other ages have had great visions. They have always been different versions of the same vision: the vision of God and man's relationship to God. The Communist vision is the vision of Man without God. "


46 posted on 10/22/2004 1:43:24 PM PDT by Just mythoughts
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To: dennisw; Cachelot; Yehuda; Nix 2; veronica; Catspaw; knighthawk; Alouette; Optimist; weikel; ...

(Very Important...ping anyone you think might be interested)

Golitsyn’s Predictions (1980s) re:
The Phony Collapse of the Soviet Union and Its Implications for the West and NATO

“ All warfare is based on deception. Therefore, when capable, feign incapacity; when active, inactivity. When near, make it appear that you are far away; when far away, that you are near. Offer the enemy a bait to lure him; feign disorder and strike him. When he concentrates, prepare against him; where he is strong, avoid him. Anger his general and confuse him. Pretend inferiority and encourage his arrogance. Keep him under strain and wear him down. When he is united, divide him. Attack where he is unprepared; sally out when he does not expect you. To subdue the enemy without fighting is the supreme skill… Disrupt his alliances…Therefore I say: “[If you] know the enemy and know yourself, in a hundred battles you will never be in peril. When you are ignorant of the enemy but know yourself, you chances of winning or losing are equal; if ignorant of both your enemy and yourself, you are certain in every battle to be in peril.”
SUN TZU, The Art of War, Oxford University Press Edition (also published in the Soviet Union in 1950, in Germany in 1957; also published by the East German Ministry of Defense and was prescribed for study in the East German military academies; it was published in China in 1957, 1958, and 1959, and Moa was known to be influenced by the book in his conduct of the civil war.

“A ruling Class which is on the run, as ours is, is capable of every fatuity. It makes the wrong decisions, chooses the wrong people, and is unable to recognize its enemies-if it does not actually prefer them to its friends.”
MALCOM MUGGERIDGE, Tread Softly for You Tread on My Jokes.

“I don’t think Gorbachev is a Leninist anymore…I don’t think we have been deceived—at least, I hope we haven’t.”
MARGARET THATCHER, Personal interview with Christopher Story, former occasional advisor to M. Thatcher and editor of Anatoly Golitsyn’s second book, Perestroika Deception.




Mark Riebling, author of the book Wedge: The Secret War Between the FBI and the CIA, pays tribute to Anatoly Golitsyn by crediting his predictions in regards to the phony collapse of the Soviet Union with “an accuracy record of nearly 94%” [pg. 408].

There has been a recent and very public spate of mainstream news articles attempting to smear Anatoly Golitsyn and his principle sponsor in the CIA, James Jesus Angleton. I can only assume that either the CIA or the KGB, or both, have decided that Golitsyn’s warnings are beginning to catch on, so it has become necessary to dust off the old smear campaign folder and once again spread their lies about these two.

For the purposes of this post, I would like to communicate just how specific Golitsyn’s predictions are, and let the reader decide for himself whether or not they have come to pass. Please note that these predictions are taken from his 1984 book New Lies For Old (the manuscript was completed in 1980, ten years before the events themselves). Golitsyn is no psychic; his predictions are based on his inside knowledge of Soviet long-range strategy. It should also be noted that many of the predictions contained in New Lies For Old date back to the 1960s and 1970s, as the book is based on memos he was writing to the CIA during that time while still under their employ (he defected from the KGB in 1961). Of course, the CIA refused to heed Golitsyn’s warnings about the coming phony collapse of the Soviet Union (the one exception being the head of Counter Intelligence, James Angleton, and his staff…some of which, along with members of MI5 and MI6, took the bold step of writing the Editor’s Forward to Golitsyn’s book). It is my hope that you will read Golitsyn’s predictions, based as they are on his inside knowledge of long-range Soviet strategy, and forward them to as many people as possible.




Golitsyn’s Specific Predictions from his 1984 book New Lies For Old.

Pages 327-328: “The Communist strategists are now poised to enter into the final, offensive phase of the long-range policy, entailing a joint struggle for the complete triumph of Communism. Given the multiplicity of parties in power, the close links between them, and the opportunities they have had to broaden their bases and build up experienced cadres, the Communist strategists are equipped, in pursuing their policy, to engage in maneuvers and stratagems beyond the imagination of Marx or the practical reach of Lenin and unthinkable to Stalin. Among such…stratagems are the introduction of false liberalization in Eastern Europe and, probably, in the Soviet Union and the exhibition of spurious independence on the part of the regimes in Romania, Czechoslovakia and Poland.

Pages 224-226: “It would be worthwhile for the West to study the scenario and techniques of the Czechoslovak experiment [of 1968]—so as not to be taken in again. The scenario could well be repeated in essence, although with local variations…The staging of the ‘quiet revolution’ and its reversal served a wide variety of strategic and tactical objectives. [Among them:]

· To arouse sentiment against military pacts in Europe
· To increase pressure in the West for the convening of a conference on security in Europe, the Communist interest in which is to promote the dissolution of military pacts, the creation of a neutral, socialist Europe, and the withdrawal of the American military presence.
· To rehearse and gain experience for the repetition of ‘democratization’ in Czechoslovakia, the Soviet Union, or elsewhere in Eastern Europe during the final phase of the long-range policy of the Bloc.”

Pages 241-242: “The creation of a false, controlled opposition movement like the dissident movement serves the internal and external strategic purposes.

Internally it provides a vehicle for the eventual false ‘liberalization’ of a Communist regime; it provokes some would-be opposition elements to expose themselves to counter-action, and others are driven to conformity or despair. Externally, ‘dissidents’ can act as vehicles for a variety of disinformation themes on the subject of the evolution of the Communist system… It sets the scene for an eventual dramatic ‘liberalization’ of the system by heightening the contrast between neo-Stalinism and future ‘socialism with a human face.’ It creates a cadre of figures who are well known in the West and who can be used in the future as the leaders and supporters of the ‘multi-Party system’ under Communism. ‘Dissident’ trade unions and intellectuals can be used to promote solidarity with their Western counterparts and engage them in joint campaigns for disarmament and the reform of Western ‘military-industrial complexes.’ In the long run the Western individuals and groups involved will face the choice of admitting that their support for dissidents was mistaken or accepting that Communism has undergone a radical change, making ‘convergence’ an acceptable, and perhaps desirable, prospect.”

Page 262: “One of the objectives [of Euro-Communism] was to prepare the ground, in coordination with Bloc policy in general, for an eventual ‘liberalization’ in the Soviet Union and Eastern Europe and a major drive to promote the dissolution of NATO and the Warsaw Pact and the withdrawal of the American military presence from a neutral, socialist Europe.”

Page 323: “The Western strategy of a mildly activist approach to Eastern Europe, with emphasis on human rights, is doomed to failure because it is based on misconceptions and will lead ultimately into a trap when a further spurious liberalization takes place in Eastern Europe in the final phase of the long-range Communist policy. Not the least disturbing aspect of the present crisis in Western assessments and policy is that, if it is recognized at all, its causes are misunderstood. As matters stand the West is acutely vulnerable to the coming major shift in Communist tactics in the final phase of their policy.

Page 331: “The conclusion [is that] the ‘renewal’ in Poland was planned thoroughly, and well in advance, by the Polish Communist Party in cooperation with its Communist allies and with a view to furthering the Communist strategy for Europe. The conclusion is further supported by the evidence of the Polish Communist Party’s involvement in the formation and functioning of Solidarity.”

Page 334: “The creation of Solidarity and the initial period of its activity as a trade union may be regarded as the experimental first phase of the Polish ‘renewal.’ The appointment of Jaruzelski, the imposition of martial law, and the suspension of Solidarity represent the second phase, intended to bring the movement under firm control and provide a period of political consolidation. In the third phase it may be expected that a coalition government will be formed, comprising representatives of the Communist Party, a revived Solidarity movement, and of the church. A few so-called liberals might also be included. A new-style government of this sort in Eastern Europe would be well equipped to promote Communist strategy by campaigning for disarmament, for nuclear-free zones in Europe, perhaps for a revival of the Rapacki Plan, for the simultaneous dissolution of NATO and the Warsaw Pact, and ultimately for the establishment of a neutral, socialist Europe. The revival of other elements of Communist strategy for Europe [such as human rights negotiations] would be timed to coincide with the emergence of such a government.

Page 335: “A coalition government in Poland would in fact be totalitarianism under a new, deceptive and more dangerous guise. Accepted as the spontaneous emergence of a new form of multi-party, semi-democratic regime, it would serve to undermine resistance to Communism inside and outside the Communist Bloc. The need for massive defense expenditure would increasingly be questioned in the West. New possibilities would arise for splitting Western Europe away from the United States, of neutralizing Germany, and destroying NATO.”

Page 338-340: “The intensification of hardline policies and methods in the Soviet Union, exemplified by Sakharov’s arrest and the occupation of Afghanistan, presages a switch to ‘democratization’ following, perhaps, Brezhnev’s departure from the political scene… Brezhnev’s successor may well appear to be a kind of Soviet Alexander Dubcek. The succession will be important only in the presentational sense.

The reality of collective leadership and the leaders’ common commitment to the long-range policy will continue unaffected… The Brezhnev regime and its neo-Stalinist actions against ‘dissidents’ and in Afghanistan would be condemned as Novotny’s regime [in Czechoslovakia] was condemned in 1968.

The economic field reforms might be expected to bring Soviet practice more into line with Yugoslavia, or even seemingly, with Western socialist models… The Party would be less conspicuous, but would continue to control the economy from behind the scenes as before…

Political ‘liberalization’ and ‘democratization’ would follow the general lines of the Czechoslovak rehearsal in 1968. This rehearsal might well have been the kind of political experiment Nikolay Mironov [former head of the Party’s Administrative Organs Department] had in mind as early as 1960. The ‘liberalization’ would be spectacular and impressive. Formal pronouncements might be made about a reduction in the Communist Party’s role; its monopoly would be apparently curtailed. An ostensible separation of powers between legislative, executive, and the judiciary might be introduced. The Supreme Soviet would be given greater apparent power and the president and deputies greater apparent independence.

The posts of President of the Soviet Union and First Secretary of the Party might well be separated. The KGB would be ‘reformed’. Dissidents at home would take up positions of leadership in government. Sakharov might be included in some capacity in government or allowed to teach abroad. The creative arts and cultural and scientific organizations, such as writers’ unions and the Academy of Sciences, would become apparently more independent, as would the trade unions. Political clubs would be opened to non-members of the Communist Party.

Leading dissidents might form one or more alternative political parties. Censorship would be relaxed; controversial books, plays, films, and art would be published, performed and exhibited. Many prominent Soviet performing artists now abroad would return to the Soviet Union and resume their professional careers.
Constitutional amendments would be adopted to guarantee fulfillment of the provisions of the Helsinki agreements and a semblance of compliance would be maintained. There would be greater freedom for the Soviet citizens to travel. Western and United Nations observers would be invited to the Soviet Union to witness the reforms in action.

But, as in the Czechoslovak case, the ‘liberalization’ would be calculated and deceptive in that it would be introduced from above. It would be carried out by the Party through its cells and individual members of government, the Supreme Soviet, the courts, and the electoral machinery and by the KGB through its agents among the intellectuals and scientists…”

Pages 340-342: “The dissident movement is now being prepared for the most important aspect of its strategic role, which will be to persuade the West of the authenticity of Soviet ‘liberalization’ when it comes. Further high-level defectors, or ‘official émigrés’, may well make their appearance in the West before the switch in policy occurs.

The prediction of Soviet compliance with the Helsinki agreements is based on the fact that it was the Warsaw Pact countries and a Soviet [agent of influence] who initiated and pressed for the [negotiations]…

‘Liberalization’ in Eastern Europe would probably involve the return to power in Czechoslovakia of Dubcek and his associates. If it should be extended to East Germany, demolition of the Berlin Wall might even be contemplated…

Western acceptance of the new ‘liberalization’ as genuine would create favorable conditions for the fulfillment of Communist strategy for the United States, Western Europe, and even, perhaps, Japan… Euro-Communism would be revived. The pressure for united fronts between Communist and socialist parties and trade unions at the national and international level would be intensified.

This time, the socialists might finally fall into the trap. United front governments under strong Communist influence might well come to power in France, Italy, and possibly other countries. Elsewhere the fortunes and influence of Communist Parties would be much revived. The bulk of Europe might well turn to left-wing socialism, leaving only a few pockets of conservative resistance.

Pressure could well grow for a solution of the German problem in which some form of confederation between East and West Germany would be combined with neutralization of the whole and a treaty of friendship with the Soviet Union. France and Italy, under united front governments, would throw in their lot with Germany and the Soviet Union. Britain would be confronted with a choice between a neutral Europe and the United States.

NATO could hardly survive this process. The Czechoslovaks, in contrast with their performance in 1968, might well take the initiative, along with the Romanians and Yugoslavs, in proposing (in the Helsinki context) the dissolution of the Warsaw Pact in return for the dissolution of NATO.

The disappearance of the Warsaw Pact would have little effect on the coordination of the Communist bloc, but the dissolution of NATO could well mean the departure of American forces from the European continent and a closer European alignment with a ‘liberalized’ Soviet Bloc. Perhaps in the long run, a similar process might affect the relationship between the United States and Japan leading to abrogation of the security pact between them.

The EEC [EU] on present lines, even if enlarged, would not be a barrier to the neutralization of Europe and the withdrawal of American troops. It might even accelerate the process. The acceptance of the EEC by Eurocommunist parties in the 1970s, following a period of opposition in the 1960s, suggests that this view is shared by the communist strategists. The efforts by the Yugoslavs and Romanians to create stronger links with the EEC should be seen, not as inimical to Soviet interests, but as the first step in laying the foundations for the merger between EEC and COMECON. The European Parliament might become an all-European socialist parliament with representation from the Soviet Union and Eastern Europe. ‘Europe from the Atlantic to the Urals’ would turn out to be a neutral, socialist Europe.

The United States, betrayed by her former European allies, would tend to withdraw into fortress America or, with the few remaining conservative countries, including perhaps Japan, would seek and alliance with China as the only counterweight to Soviet power.”

Page 348: “The timing of the release of the Solidarity leader and the news of the appointment of Adropov confirm… that the ‘liberalization’ will not be limited to the USSR, but will be expanded to Eastern Europe and particularly Poland. The experiment with ‘renewal’ in Poland will be repeated again.

This time, however, it will be with full strategic initiatives and implications against Western Europe and NATO. The appointment of Andropov, the release of the Solidarity leader, and the invitation to the Pope to visit Poland in June 1983, made by the Polish government, all indicate that the Communist strategists are probably planning the re-emergence of Solidarity and the creation of a quasi-social democratic government in Poland (a coalition of the Communist Party, the trade unions, and the churches) and political and economic reforms in the USSR for 1984 and afterward.”

Pages 349-350: “How will the Western German social democrats respond when the Communist regimes begin their ‘liberalization’ by making concessions on human rights, such as easing emigration, granting amnesty for the dissidents, or removing the Berlin Wall? One can expect that the Soviet agents of influence in Western Europe, drawing on these developments, will become more active.

It is more than likely that these cosmetic steps will be taken as genuine by the West and will trigger a reunification and neutralization of Western Germany and further collapse of NATO. The pressure on the United States for concessions on disarmament and accommodation with the Soviets will increase.

During this period there might be an extensive display of the fictional struggle for power in the Soviet leadership. One cannot exclude that at the next Party Congress or earlier, Andropov will be replaced by a younger leader with a more liberal image who will continue the so-called ‘liberalization’ more intensively…

In is not inconceivable that the Soviets will make concessions on Afghanistan in order to gain new strategic advantages.”

Additional Predictions on ‘perestroika’ in Golitsyn’s memoranda to the CIA(Taken from declassified memos published in Golitsyn’s second book The Perestroika Deception, 1995)

July 4, 1984: ‘At this time, the Soviet Strategists may replace the old leader, Konstantin Chernenko, who is actually only a figurehead, with a younger Soviet leader who was chosen some time ago as his successor, namely Comrade Gorbachev. One of his major tasks will be to implement the so-called liberalization. The strategists may also replace the old ‘hardliner’ Andrei Gromyko with a younger ‘soft-liner’…The new Soviet leadership may introduce economic reforms and striking political initiatives in order to project a clear message that the changes in the Soviet leadership and in Soviet policy require changes in US leadership, in US military policy and in the US budget. Inasmuch as both conservatives and liberals are confused by strategic disinformation about Soviet strategic intentions, it is possible that these manoeuvres, assisted by Soviet agents of influence, will be successful.’

July 5, 1985: ‘The changes in the Soviet leadership should be seen, not as indicating the consolidation by Gorbachev of his personal power, but as meeting the requirements of strategy. The appointment of Gromyko as President and of Eduard Shevardnadze as Minister of Foreign Affairs should be viewed as preparation for the coming programme of calculated economic and political reform which has already been described. Shevardnadze was chosen because of his experience as Minister of Internal Affairs in Georgia during the 1970s. His role will be to link the strategy of so-called “liberalization” with the strategies of Europe and disarmament. In all probability, the model for his appointment was Janos Kadar in Hungary. It was Kadar, the Minister of the Interior under the old regime, who launched the so-called liberalization in Hungary. Gromyko’s image as an old Stalinist would have made him unsuitable for the role of Minister of Foreign Affairs during “liberalization”. But his promotion to the Presidency is very important. It is a mistake to regard the position of President of the Soviet Union as purely ceremonial. Since the adoption of the present long-range policy in 1960, the Soviet President, then Brezhnev, later Podgorniy, has played an important role in the execution of that policy. As a member of the Politburo, Gromyko will provide Gorbachev with important advice on strategy. As President, he will use his exalted position to give guidance to Soviet agents of influence among heads of state in Europe and the Third World’.

August 1985: ‘There are no valid grounds for favourable illusions or for the euphoria in the West over the Gorbachev appointment and the coming ‘liberalisation’. In fact, these developments may present a major challenge and serious test for the United States’ leadership and for the West. The liberalization will not be spontaneous nor will it be genuine. It will be a calculated liberalization patterned along the lines of the Czechoslovak ‘democratisation’ which was rehearsed in 1968. It will be initiated from above and will be guided and controlled by the KGB and the Party apparatus. The ‘liberalisation’ will include the following elements:

(a) Economic reforms to decentralize the Soviet economy and to introduce profit incentives on the lines of those in Hungary and China. Since Gorbachev is a Soviet agricultural expert, one can expect a reorganization of the kolkhozy or collective farms into sovkhozy or state farms. In fact, Lavrentiy Beria was already planning the liquidation of the kolkhozy in 1953.
(b) Religious relaxation along the lines of Iosif Stalin’s relaxation during the Second World War. The recent sensational Soviet invitation to the Reverend Billy Graham to preach in Soviet churches indicates that the Soviet strategists have already introduced this element and have not waited for the formal installation of Gorbachev as Party leader.
(c) Permission for a group of Jewish émigrés to leave the USSR.
(d) Relaxation of travel restrictions to allow Soviet citizens to make visits abroad. This will be done to impress the West with the Soviet government’s compliance with the Helsinki agreements.
(e) Some relaxation for Soviet intellectuals and cultural defectors. Soviet writers and producers will be permitted to write books and produce plays on controversial subjects. Cultural defectors, musicians and dancers will be allowed to perform in the USSR and to travel abroad, thus getting the best of both worlds. One can expect that amnesty will be declared for the so-called dissidents.
(f) Some reduction in the military budget and the transfer of some military funds to improve the state economy’.

‘If presented and advertised by the innocent and uninitiated media as major radical change in the Communist system, the “liberalization” will allow the Communist leaders immediately to regain the political initiative and to revive the political and diplomatic détente which was so disastrous for the West and so beneficial to the Communists in the past. The charismatic personality of Gorbachev may play an important role in the over-reaction of the Western media’.

‘The Soviet “liberalization” is a major part of the strategy of the whole Communist Bloc, and particularly of Poland and East Germany, against the West. The main objective is to launch a political offensive against the United States and NATO and to develop a military détente in Europe by changing the political and military situation. This strategy is designed to accomplish the following:
(a) To bring about a “German Confederation” of East and West Germany and withdrawal from both the Warsaw Pact and NATO.
(b) To break up NATO and force a United States withdrawal from Europe’.

‘One can expect that, in order to accomplish their objectives, a similar “liberalisation” will be introduced in Poland and East Germany.

‘Presented and advertised as a new reality in Europe, the Soviet, Polish and East German “liberalization” will have a stunning and mesmerizing effect on both West Europeans and Americans. The resulting confusion will be exploited by the Soviet, Polish and East German leaders through their activist diplomacy especially towards West Germany. Czechoslovak, Hungarian and Romanian leaders may actively contribute to this strategy…’

‘The “liberalization” in the USSR, Poland and East Germany may set off a chain reaction in the West and inflict irreparable damage particularly on the NATO countries and the US military posture unless its true nature and role in Communist strategy are realized.’

‘The “liberalization” and its strategic manipulations, combined with overt and covert Communist operations, will also present problems for the leadership of the West. It will be aimed at confusing the Western leaders, splitting the West European allies from the United States and then splitting the people from their elected leaders. The leaders who are taken in by the “liberalization” can be expected to make erroneous and costly decisions, albeit unwittingly, in the interests of the Communists’.

Winter 1986: ‘The essence of the strategy is to introduce a calculated and controlled false democratization and to revive a discredited regime by giving it an attractive aspect and a “human face”. Its strategic objective is to generate support, good will and sympathy in the West and to exploit this sympathy in the West and to exploit this sympathy in order to shape new attitudes and new political realities which will favour Soviet interests. Another objective is to undercut and isolate traditional political parties and their leaders, particularly the conservatives and the realists in the West. A further objective is to shape new attitudes towards the Strategic Defence Initiative, the budget and the US military and to disarm the United States, basing these new attitudes on the premise that “the new regime which has emerged in the USSR is liberal and no longer poses any threat to the United States”. Given the surprise aspect of the Soviet Strategy, it may succeed. The possible implications of a failure to understand the essence of this strategy would be damaging to both the United States and Western Europe. The Americans, the West Europeans, their leaders and their military strategists would be influenced and misled by these developments all to the detriment of the national interests of the democracies. The probable impact on the West of such a Soviet revival would be equal to or greater than that of the October Revolution’.

‘The impact would in fact be greater and deeper because it would not be alarming but disarming for the West. The revival would become a significant influence in the political life of the United States and Western Europe. The revival might have a disproportionate influence on the attitudes of the democracies towards their military strategy, the NATO alliance and the Strategic Defence Initiative, all to the detriment of their national interests. It might eventually lead to the realization of the final goal of Soviet strategy, namely the convergence of the capitalist West with the Communist East on Soviet terms and the creation of a World Government as a solution to the arms race and nuclear confrontation’.

March 1987: ‘The USSR, China, Poland and probably East Germany are now in a position to launch a political and diplomatic offensive against the West to shatter its structure and its foundation…The next strategic moves will include: (a) Mass Jewish emigration intended to swing Western public opinion towards an acceptance of “democratization” as genuine; (b) The revival of “liberalization” in Poland and the introduction of economic reforms there; (c) New initiatives around the time of the Pope’s visit to the USSR; (d) An initiative leading towards German federation’.


CORRECT PREDICTIONS BASED ON THE NEW METHOD OF ANALYSIS

March 1989 ‘The great majority of the predictions both in New Lies For Old and in my subsequent Memoranda to the CIA have proved accurate both in substance and in detail. The question arises: why were these predictions correct and why did Western experts fail to predict these developments? The answer lies in the different methods of analysis. The new method takes into account the adoption by the leaders of the Communist Bloc in the period 1958 to 1960 of a long-range strategy of which ‘perestroika’ is the logical culmination.’

‘The new method incorporates the following elements:

(a) The Author’s inside information on the adoption of the strategy, the essence of which was the revitalization of Communism through the economic and political reform of the earlier repressive Stalinist system.
(b) The Author’s inside information on Shelepin’s 1959 report allotting the KGB a crucial role in the new strategy, in particular the task of creating a controlled political opposition which would give the Soviet and other Communist regimes a more liberal image.
(c) The Author’s inside information that the Party and the KGB launched a programme of strategic disinformation to support their strategy.
(d) The Author’s twenty-eight years of experience in interpreting developments in the Communist world in the light of this knowledge.
(e) Study of the official documents of the 1958-60 period in which the long-range policy was openly expressed and approved.’

‘In addition to predictions on forthcoming ‘liberalisation’ in the Soviet Union, New Lies for Old contained a critique of Western methods of analysis and an account of the new method. It is worth mentioning that the late Sir John Rennie, at that time head of the British Secret Service, read the whole of the chapter on this subject in New York in 1968 and expressed the opinion that it should be published. He offered to help in arranging this through his friendship with Mr. Armstrong, then editor of Foreign Affairs. The Author acknowledges that he mistakenly declined this offer. When New Lies for Old was published in 1984, its message did not attract the attention of the American media and public.’

‘Only the late Mr. James Angleton and his colleagues in the ‘Intelligence and Security Foundation’ realized the importance of the book as the basis for understanding ‘perestroika’ and devoted three special reports to a review of the main ideas in the book on long-range strategy. In subsequent Memoranda to the CIA, the Author emphasized that ‘perestroika’ is not Gorbachev’s invention but the logical culmination of the long-range strategy of 1958-1960’ (these dates fly in complete contradiction to the notion promoted by Soviet agents of influence and the naïve Western media that glasnost and perestroika were desperate last-ditch efforts initiated by the Soviet elites to save themselves from collapse—eds).

‘The new method applies ‘creative Leninist thinking’ to the analysis of Soviet strategy. Leninist thinking, freed from Stalinist dogma and stereotypes, continues to be a principal source of inspiration in the Soviet strategic approach to national and international problems. The new method augments Leninist thinking by taking three factors into account in its analysis: Vladimir Lenin’s introduction of a limited form of capitalism into the Soviet system in the 1920s in order to strengthen the drive for world Communist revolution; Felix Dzerzhinskiy’s creation of GPU-controlled ‘political opposition’ in the USSR in the same period and its introduction to Western intelligence services and general staffs for strategic political deception purposes; and the thirty years of Soviet experience in applying the strategy culminating in ‘perestroika’.

THE ADOPTION OF THE LONG-RANGE STRATEGY OF ‘PERESTROIKA’

‘It was not in 1985 but in 1958 that the Communist leaders recognized, after the Hungarian and Polish revolts, that the Stalinist practice of mass repression had severely damaged the system and that radical measures were necessary to restore it. It was then that they decided to transform the Stalinist system into a more attractive form of ‘Communist democracy’.

‘It was not in 1985 but in 1958 that the Communist leaders accepted that their economic system was ineffective and lagging behind the West in productivity. It was then that they decided that it would have to be revived through the introduction of market incentives.’
‘It was then that the Communist leaders realized that Communism could not be spread abroad against a background of fear and mass repression and that world Communist victory could only be achieved by transforming the Soviet and other Communist regimes into a form more attractive to the West.’

‘It was during 1958-1960 that the Communist leaders envisaged the convergence of restructured and transformed capitalist systems leading ultimately to one system of World Government. Taking account of the military strength of NATO, the Communist leaders decided to build up their military strength as a guarantee of the success of their programme of domestic ‘reform’ and as a pressure weapon for disarmament negotiations with the West and the execution of their strategy of convergence.’

‘Accepting the necessity for stability in the political leadership of the USSR for the execution of the long-range strategy, the Soviet leaders rejected Stalin’s practice of eliminating his rivals and reverted to Lenin’s style of leadership. They solved the problem through the selection by the Central Committee of Nikita Khrushchev’s successor in advance of Khrushchev’s own retirement. Leonid Brezhnev had already been chosen in this way in July 1960 when he was made President and was given a special briefing by the Chairman of the KGB in preparation for the new responsibilities he would be assuming when Khrushchev stepped down.’

‘A common commitment to the long-range strategy itself became a factor in the prevention of further power struggles. Western experts failed to understand this because Khrushchev’s retirement was deliberately misrepresented by the Soviet leaders to the West as his dismissal.’

‘In this and in other ways, the origin of the long-range deception strategy of ‘perestroika’ was successfully concealed.’

(I am skipping Golitsyn’s rather lengthy review of Soviet research and preparation for the new long-range strategy, or perestroika. Instead, I pick up where Golitsyn talks about experiments and rehearsals for perestroika).

EXPERIMENTS AND REHEARSALS FOR ‘PERESTROIKA’ (same 1989 memo)

‘Since 1959 the Communist bloc Parties and governments have been involved in practical experiments and rehearsals for separate elements of ‘perestroika’ in different countries in preparation for its introduction overall.’

‘The most important of these experiments and rehearsals were:

· An attempt at ‘liberalisation’ in the early 1960s under Khurshchev.
· Publication of an article about market economics by Professor Yevsei Liberman and experiments with firms and ‘trusts’ in 1962 (along the same lines as Lenin’s NEP experiments in the 1920s—eds).
· Alexei Kosygin’s economic reforms in 1965.
· Alleged ‘Romanian independence’ from the early 1960s onwards.
· The ‘Cultural Revolution’ in China—in fact a campaign of ideological and political re-education and a preparation of the inexperienced and inept Chinese Party bureaucracy for détente with the capitalist West.
· ‘Democratisation’ in Czechoslovakia in 1968.
· Legalisation by the Polish Communist Party of Solidarity in 1980.
· The introduction of capitalist incentives in China and Hungary during the 1070s and the 1980s.’

‘The Soviet strategists studied the performance, outcome, lessons and mistakes of these experiments and rehearsals. No doubt, they drew proper, practical conclusions from the excesses of the ‘Cultural Revolution’ in China and the loss of control over the experiments with ‘democratisation’ in Czechoslovakia and Solidarity in Poland. They probably also drew conclusions from the painful experiences of Yugoslavia. The experience gained was of enormous benefit for influencing the introduction of ‘perestroika’ in all its elements in their totality in the USSR.’

‘The development and execution of the strategy over a thirty-years period has strengthened Soviet power militarily, politically and, with Western help, economically. The Author strongly disagrees with Brzezinki’s assessment that the USSR is collapsing. The execution of the strategy has broadened the political base of the Communist Party in the Russian and other national Republics.’

‘Careful preparation has created the conditions for overall ‘perestroika’ and the transition of the regime in the most powerful and experienced of the socialist countries to a phase of ‘Communist democracy’.

‘Naturally, the Soviet leaders seek to avoid alerting the West to what is happening by describing the process in these terms.’

‘From the time the strategy was adopted, the Party leadership made it clear to its technocrats, bureaucrats, military and intellectuals that the requirements of the strategy are paramount for their activities and the assessment of their performance. Because of these demands and Party discipline, there can be no genuine opposition among conservatives in the Party, the military or the technocracy.’

‘Bold experiments and successful execution of the strategy in the USSR, Eastern Europe and Communist China have given Party leaders, KGB officials, generals, technocrats and leading intellectuals a political maturity and sophistication which they have revealed in ‘perestroika’.

‘Because of their longer historical experience, their greater political, economic and military potential and their thorough preparation, the Communist strategists and the ruling elite are confident that they can guide and lead their people without the loss of control which occurred in Czechoslovakia in 1968 and in Poland (1981). However, in the event of control nonetheless being endangered in given contexts, the situation will be retrieved in the usual manner—by means of military repression.’

‘PERESTROIKA’, THE FINAL PHASE: ITS MAIN OBJECTIVES

‘The new method sees ‘perestroika’, not as a surprising and spontaneous change, but as the logical result of thirty years of preparation and as the next and final phase of the strategy: it sees it in a broader context than Soviet ‘openness’ has revealed.’


‘It sees it, not only as a renewal of Soviet society, but as a global strategic design for ‘restructuring’ the entire capitalist world.’

‘The following strategic objectives of ‘perestroika’ may be distinguished:

For the USSR
(a) ‘Restructuring’ and revitalization of the Soviet socialist economy through the incorporation of some elements of the market economy.
(b) ‘Restructuring’ of the Stalinist regime into a form of ‘Communist democracy’ with an appearance of political pluralism [= ‘democratism’, or false democracy].
(c) ‘Reconsructing’ a repressive regime with a brutal face into an attractive socialist model with a human façade and seeming similarity to the Swedish social democratic system.’

For Eastern Europe

‘Economic and political ‘restructuring’ of the existing regimes into pseudo-social democratic models while preserving specific national historical features such as the strong Catholic Socialist tradition in Poland and the pre-war democratic tradition in Czechoslovakia.’

For Western Europe

(a) ‘Bringing about a new political alliance between the pseudo-social democratic regimes in the USSR and Eastern Europe and the Euro-Communist parties and genuine social democratic parties in Western Europe.
(b) ‘Restructuring’ political and military blocs—NATO and the Warsaw Pact—and the creation of a singe ‘Europe from the Atlantic to the Urals’ incorporating a reunited, neutral Germany.’

For the main US alliances

(a) ‘Splitting the United States, Western Europe and Japan.
(b) Dissolution of NATO and the US-Japan security pact, and the withdrawal of US troops from Western Europe and Japan.’

For Third World countries

‘The introduction and promotion of a new Soviet model with a mixed economy and a human face in Latin America, Africa and Asia through a joint campaign by the pseudo-social democratic regimes of the USSR and Eastern Europe and the genuine social democrats of Western Europe led by the Socialist International.’

For the United States

(a) ‘To neutralize the influence of the anti-Communist political right in the American political parties and to create favourable conditions for a victory of the radical left in the 1992 US presidential elections (In this context, Clinton’s stay with top Communists in Czechoslovakia and the Soviet Union during the latter part of the Vietnam war has profound and disturbing implications--eds).
(b) To ‘restructure’ the American military, political, economic and social status quo to accommodate greater convergence between the Soviet and American systems and the eventual creation of a single World Government.’

The paramount global objective

‘The paramount global objective of the strategy of ‘perestroika’ is to weaken and neutralize anti-Communist ideology and the influence of anti-Communists in political life in the United States, Western Europe and elsewhere—presenting them as anachronistic survivors of the Cold War, reactionaries and obstacles to ‘restructuring’ and peace. Anyone who warns about Moscow’s true objectives is automatically branded a ‘Cold Warrior’, even by people who have doubts about Moscow’s motives.’

THE ESSENCE OF ‘PERESTROIKA’: AN APPLICATION OF 1920s’ LENINISM

‘The new method penetrates the façade, tears the verbal mask off ‘perestroika’ and reveals its true meaning—which Gorbachev and ‘glasnost’ have failed to do. Lenin’s teaching and the experience of the New Economic Policy [NEP] are keys to understanding the essence of ‘persestroika’ and the reasons for Gorbachev’s downgrading and renunciation of elements of ideological orthodoxy like the class struggle and his emphasis on common interests and the benefits of close cooperation.’

‘Lenin advised the Communists that they must be prepared to ‘resort to all sorts of stratagems, manoeuvres, illegal methods, evasions and subterfuge’ to achieve their objectives. This advice was given on the eve of his reintroduction of limited capitalism in Russia in his work ‘Left Wing Communism, an Infantile Disorder’.

‘The new method sees ‘perestroika’ as an application of Lenin’s advice in new conditions. Another speech of Lenin’s in the NEP period at the Comintern Congress in July 1921 is again highly relevant to understanding ‘perestroika’. ‘Our only strategy at present’, wrote Lenin, ‘is to become stronger and, therefore, wiser, more reasonable, more opportunistic. The more opportunistic, the sooner will you again assemble the masses around you. When we have won over the masses by our reasonable approach, we shall then apply offensive tactics in the strictest sense of the word.’

THE WORLDWIDE COMMUNIST FEDERATION (should they succeed…taken from Golitsyn’s book New Lies For Old, 1984)

‘Integration of the Communist Bloc would follow the lines envisaged by Lenin when the Third Communist International was founded. That is to say, the Soviet Union and China would not absorb one another or other Communist states. All the countries of the European and Asiatic Communist zones, together with new Communist states in Europe and the Third World, would join a supranational economic and political Communist federation (this is precisely what the Soviets have in mind for the impending EU collective--eds). Soviet-Albanian, Soviet-Yugoslav, and Soviet-Romanian disputes and ‘differences’ would be resolved in the wake, or possibly in advance of, Sino-Soviet reconciliation (Golitsyn goes to great lengths in previous chapters to show how the split between the Soviets and the Chinese was completely healed immediately after Stalin’s death…however, they continued the illusion of a split to dupe the West into backing alternating sides, depending on circumstances—eds). The political, economic, military, diplomatic, and ideological cooperation between all the Communist states, at present partially concealed, would become clearly visible. There might even be public acknowledgment that the splits and disputes were long-term disinformation operations that had successfully deceived the “imperialist” powers. The effect on Western morale can be imagined’ (the Soviets have employed this tactic on numerous occasions—eds).

‘In the new worldwide Communist federation the present different brands of Communism would disappear, to be replaced by a uniform, rigorous brand of Leninism. The process would be painful. Concessions made in the name of economic and political reform would be withdrawn. Religious and intellectual dissent would be suppressed. Nationalism and all other forms of genuine oppositions would be crushed. Those who had taken advantage of détente to establish friendly Western contacts would be rebuked or persecuted like those Soviet officers who worked with the Allies during the Second World War. In new Communist states—for example, in France, Italy, and the Third World—the “alienated classes” would be reeducated. Show trials of “imperialist agents” would be staged. Action would be taken against nationalist and social democratic leaders, party activists, former civil servants, officers, and priests. The last vestiges of private enterprise and ownership would be obliterated. Nationalization of industry, finance, and agriculture would be completed. In fact, all the totalitarian features familiar from the early stages of the Soviet revolution and the postwar Stalinist years in Eastern Europe might be expected to reappear, especially in those countries newly won for Communism. Unchallenged and unchallengeable, a true Communist monolith would dominate the world.’


47 posted on 10/23/2004 5:07:52 PM PDT by TapTheSource
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To: TapTheSource

Also from Riebling's "Wedge", 1994 edition, p. 224:

". . .Hoover had come to suspect that the main source of the mole allegations, Anatoily Golitsyn, might himself be a disinformant under KGB control. . .the Director of the FBI had stated that in his opinion Golitsyn himself was a provocateur and a penetration agent."


48 posted on 10/23/2004 5:28:37 PM PDT by Fedora
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To: Fedora

Yes, I am aware of Hoover's assessment. But in the end, Golitsyn's predictions proved correct, whereas the defectors Hoover's relied on proved to be phony.

See link:

http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-chat/1224848/posts


49 posted on 10/23/2004 5:35:53 PM PDT by TapTheSource
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To: TapTheSource

"Yes, I am aware of Hoover's assessment. But in the end, Golitsyn's predictions proved correct, whereas the defectors Hoover's relied on proved to be phony."

So some argue. I would argue differently. In any case, part of my point is that because of this type of issue, it's unadvisable to rely too heavily on defectors' claims. I prefer to start with data that can be established independently of what defectors allege. The whole subject you're broaching can be studied productively independently of the Golitsyn controversy.


50 posted on 10/23/2004 5:44:42 PM PDT by Fedora
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