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Koreans Quietly Introducing Jesus to Muslims in Mideast
NY Times ^ | 11/1/04 | NORIMITSU ONISHI

Posted on 10/31/2004 7:47:47 PM PST by Cableguy

A South Korean missionary here speaks of introducing Jesus in a "low voice and with wisdom" to Muslims, the most difficult group to convert. In Baghdad, South Koreans plan to open a seminary even after Iraqi churches have been bombed in two recent coordinated attacks. In Beijing, they defy the Chinese government to smuggle North Koreans to Seoul while turning them into Christians.

South Korea has rapidly become the world's second largest source of Christian missionaries, only a couple of decades after it started deploying them. With more than 12,000 abroad, it is second only to the United States and ahead of Britain.

The Koreans have joined their Western counterparts in more than 160 countries, from the Middle East to Africa, from Central to East Asia. Imbued with the fervor of the born again, they have become known for aggressively going to - and sometimes being expelled from - the hardest-to-evangelize corners of the world. Their actions are at odds with the foreign policy of South Korea's government, which is trying to rein them in here and elsewhere.

It is the first time that large numbers of Christian missionaries have been deployed by a non-Western nation, one whose roots are Confucian and Buddhist, and whose population remains two-thirds non-Christian. Unlike Western missionaries, whose work dovetailed with the spread of colonialism, South Koreans come from a country with little history of sending people abroad until recently. They proselytize, not in their own language, but in the local one or English.

"There is a saying that when Koreans now arrive in a new place, they establish a church; the Chinese establish a restaurant; the Japanese, a factory," said a South Korean missionary in his 40's, who has worked here for several years and, like many others, asked not to be identified because of the dangers of proselytizing in Muslim countries.

In Iraq, eight South Korean missionaries were briefly kidnapped in April. Then, in June, Kim Sun Il, a 33-year-old man who had planned to do missionary work, was taken hostage and beheaded. In July, nearly 460 North Korean defectors arrived in South Korea, thanks to a smuggling network set up by missionaries in China.

In 1979, only 93 South Koreans were serving as missionaries, according to the Korea Research Institute for Missions. Compared with South Korea's 12,000, there are about 46,000 American and 6,000 British missionaries, according to missionary organizations in South Korea and the West.

Roman Catholicism first came to the Korean Peninsula in the late 18th century, followed a century later by Protestant missionaries from the United States. Christianity failed to set firm roots in Japan and China, where 19th-century missionaries were seen as agents of Western imperialism. But it spread quickly on the Korean Peninsula, where American missionaries helped Korean nationalists fight against Japanese colonial rulers and informed the outside world of the brutalities of Japanese colonialism.

It was only in the last two decades, however, with the growth of the South Korean economy and its newly democratic government's decision to allow its citizens to travel freely overseas, that South Korean Christianity took on a missionary gloss.

Today, an equal number of missionaries are born again or members of Presbyterian, Methodist and Baptists denominations, said Steve S. C. Moon, executive director of the Korea Research Institute for Missions. These missionaries, like their Western counterparts, tend to focus on activities that are evangelical, educational and medical, and their beliefs are far more traditional than those of newer sects like the Rev. Sun Myung Moon's Unification Church, the Korean-rooted movement.

A typical case is the Presbyterian Onnuri Church, founded 19 years ago with the main purpose of training missionaries. It now has 500 in 53 countries, though it focuses on China, Indonesia and India, said Kim Joong Won, director of its missionary program.

Until June, Onnuri had a church in Baghdad where Kim Sun Il, who was beheaded, had gone to worship.

"He is a martyr to God's glory," said Mr. Moon of the research institute. "Korean missionaries are eager to do God's work and glorify God. They want to die for God."

Because religious visas are difficult to obtain in the Middle East, many come on student visas or set up computer or other businesses, and evangelize discreetly.

One Korean who has worked here several years and spoke of evangelizing in a "low voice and with wisdom," said that over intimate meals with three or four Muslims he would let the conversation drift to Jesus. So delicate is his work that he never mentions words like "missionary" or "evangelize." Muslims who have converted to Christianity are never identified as such - a necessary precaution in a society where some families engage in so-called honor killings of relatives who have left Islam.

Many missionaries also focus on bringing Arab Catholics or Chaldeans into the evangelical fold.

"There are so many ways to do our work," said the missionary in his 40's, who works in a local church in Amman and delivers English sermons that are translated into Arabic.

"Just as American missionaries did in Korea by building schools and hospitals, there are many ways here," he said. "One important group is Iraqi refugees. They come here. They are tired physically and spiritually. They are so lonely. We help them. They realize they are being helped by Christians. Then they ask about Jesus."

About 30 missionary families have settled here in Amman. Others wait to return to Iraq, which they left in June under intense pressure from the South Korean government. John Jung has been working with an Iraqi pastor, Estawri Haritounian, 40, to open a seminary at the National Protestant Evangelical Church in Baghdad.

"Saddam Hussein's regime allowed Christians to gather in private houses, so it was difficult, though possible, for us to evangelize," said Mr. Jung, who has been traveling in and out of Iraq for several years. "But now it has become even more difficult for Christians in Iraq. Christians are afraid of Muslims for the first time. We are frustrated we can't be in Iraq at this important time. But as soon as the security allows, we will go back to Baghdad."

In Baghdad, Mr. Haritounian explained recently that the church had been founded half a century ago with the help of British missionaries. American missionaries replaced them later and were in turn succeeded by South Koreans.

"We dreamed this dream, Pastor John and I, to start a seminary in Baghdad," said Mr. Haritounian, showing eight completed, though empty, classrooms.

Mr. Jung, in Amman, said they hoped to start classes as soon as the security improved in Baghdad. "We'll start with only 15 students, but we hope to grow in the future," he said.

Many in Amman said South Koreans had an advantage over others, especially now that the war in Iraq has aggravated anti-American feelings in the Middle East.

"People expect missionaries to be from America or Europe, so Koreans can do their work quietly," Mr. Haritounian said. "Because of the bad image of Americans now, it will be more difficult for American missionaries to work here."

Dennis Merdian, 50, an American missionary, said that in one difficult project he and a South Korean counterpart agreed immediately that it would be better for the South Korean to take the lead.

"He wasn't carrying the American government with him," Mr. Merdian said.

But because of their short history of living overseas, some South Koreans expect that other cultures will behave the same way their own does and that Christianity will spread abroad as quickly as it did in South Korea, said Mr. Moon of the Korea Research Institute for Missions.

"Western missionaries tend to carry a sense of guilt because of their imperialist past," he said. "But Koreans don't have that historical baggage, and they are not inhibited in reaching out to people with the Gospel. So in their missionary work, they tend not to consult the local people, but make decisions in one direction."

Shadi Samir, 28, a Jordanian pastor who has worked with South Koreans and recently visited Seoul, said he had seen inexperienced missionaries commit cultural blunders.

"They come here full of energy and go out on the streets where they approach women and tell them Jesus loves them," Mr. Samir said. "By making such mistakes, they create problems not only for themselves and other Koreans, but also for us."

Kim Dong Moon, a missionary who works in the Middle East and also writes about the missionary movement, said some South Korean missionaries had been deported from the Middle East and ended up on blacklists.

"There are some pushy Korean missionaries whose approach is: 'Come to the Kingdom of God now! Or, go to hell,' " Mr. Kim said recently in Seoul.

In China, South Koreans concentrate on converting the Chinese, as well as the ethnic North Koreans living in northeastern China. After they are smuggled out of China to South Korea, though, only about a third of the North Koreans continue practicing Christianity, missionaries said. Other South Koreans train North Korean Christians to return to the North to spread the Gospel.

"North Korea, which is occupied by the devil Kim Jong Il, is the biggest target of our missionary work," said Kim Sang Chul, president of the Commission to Help North Korean Refugees, a Christian organization.

The missionary here in Amman in his 40's said that, in his previous posting in the Philippines, he was awed when he saw American missionaries fly to remote islands and, wherever they spotted signs of life in the jungle below, drop food packets as the first contact with what missionaries call "unreached people."

"So even here, it is very difficult, but not impossible," he said. "We are planting one church at a time."


TOPICS: Culture/Society; Foreign Affairs; News/Current Events
KEYWORDS: christianity; evangelism; iraqichristians; koreans; missionaries

1 posted on 10/31/2004 7:47:47 PM PST by Cableguy
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Comment #2 Removed by Moderator

To: Cableguy
Brave Christian soldiers they are...


God bless them!
3 posted on 10/31/2004 7:49:26 PM PST by dagoofyfoot
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To: Floyd R Turbo

Lot of Korean Christians in the US also. Doing the same thing.


4 posted on 10/31/2004 7:51:47 PM PST by Cableguy (Bush wins 53/47)
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To: Cableguy

South Korea is one of the most religious country in the world. The largest Evangelical Church in the world is in South Korea. Many Koreans who come to or in America are very religious. I know this from personal experience speaking from a first generation American.


5 posted on 10/31/2004 7:51:56 PM PST by Ptarmigan (Proud rabbit hater and killer)
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To: Cableguy

They are doing some great work over there..

We had one of our Missionaries at our Church last week.
What a Great report they gave.


6 posted on 10/31/2004 7:51:58 PM PST by The Mayor (The more attracted we are to Christ, the less we'll be distracted by the world.)
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To: dagoofyfoot

I double that!

I am not a big bible thumper but in these testing times, a little reminding of the goodness of christian faith can do no harm.

Only to lefties and diehard islamofascists!!

Too bad


7 posted on 10/31/2004 7:54:24 PM PST by bubman
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To: bubman

I wonder if Rev. Sun Myung Moon will be making his Bagdad debut. Good Idea. Replace extremism with a cult movement.


8 posted on 10/31/2004 8:00:23 PM PST by Fallstaff
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To: Cableguy

Thanks to US soldiers Koreans are FREE to worship Christ...too bad we werent allowed too do at least as much for Vietnam..as they still live in bondage....

And thank the Lord that our troops have been able to free Iraqis that they to are also free to have a saving relationship with Jesus Christ..

What great work our soldiers in the military and in Christ do....

This is of course the kind of thing John F Kerry and his atheist Marxist friends like Soros wish to stop...

Their real desire is to stop evangelists...

IMO


9 posted on 10/31/2004 8:01:23 PM PST by joesnuffy (America needs a 'Big Dog' on her porch not a easily frightened, whining, French,"Surrender Poodle"..)
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To: Cableguy

God Bless South Korea.


10 posted on 10/31/2004 8:03:22 PM PST by Tribune7
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To: Floyd R Turbo
I believe they are REintroducing Christianity to the Middle East as the muslims are currently squatting on Christian territory.
11 posted on 10/31/2004 8:06:43 PM PST by CzarNicky (The problem with bad ideas is that they seemed like good ideas at the time.)
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To: Fallstaff

Who're you trying to kid?


12 posted on 10/31/2004 8:08:44 PM PST by A Jovial Cad ("I had no shoes and I complained, until I saw a man who had no feet.")
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Comment #13 Removed by Moderator

To: CzarNicky

The Middle East does not need a new religion. It needs an Enlightenment. It needs rational thought. It needs democracy and capitialism. The problem IS islam but Christianity doesnt necessarily have the relatively peacful track record that free societies have.


14 posted on 10/31/2004 8:12:04 PM PST by Fallstaff
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To: Floyd R Turbo
Korean missionaries have been coming to America for over 30 years.

Several years ago a young Korean-American lady we know was part of a mission to Ulan Bator, capital city of Mongolia.

They succeeded in establishing the very first Christian church of any kind to ever achieve national government approval.

God finds His missionaries and His prophets where He needs them.

15 posted on 10/31/2004 8:15:59 PM PST by muawiyah
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To: Fallstaff

For the past 100 years or so Christianity has had a much better track record than islam. Also it would not be the introduction of a new religion to the middle east but the reascendance of the one that is supposed to be there over the interloper. The sooner islam is run into the ground the better for the entire planet.


16 posted on 10/31/2004 8:16:52 PM PST by CzarNicky (The problem with bad ideas is that they seemed like good ideas at the time.)
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To: muawiyah

Here at UCR, we have several Christain groups. One of them is a Korean Christian group. They have posters up everywhere on campus. Christianity is alive in well in this, left leaning University.


17 posted on 10/31/2004 8:17:49 PM PST by Simmy2.5 (Kerry, because we should be U.N. Cool!)
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To: Cableguy

Praise the Lord! :-)


18 posted on 10/31/2004 8:17:56 PM PST by k2blader (It is neither compassionate nor conservative to support the expansion of socialism.)
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To: Cableguy

There are many Chinese Christians with the same ambition to bring the Gospel to Muslims, according to David Aikman's excellent survey of Christianity in mainland China, "Jesus in Beijing."


19 posted on 10/31/2004 8:18:15 PM PST by Map Kernow ("I hold that a little rebellion now and then is a good thing" ---Thomas Jefferson)
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To: Cableguy
Very encouraging story. God bless and protect these souls.

Democrats for Bush Flyer -- Print it, copy it, distribute it
20 posted on 10/31/2004 8:19:53 PM PST by Antoninus (A conservative bases his politics on his morals. ... A liberal bases his morals on his politics.)
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To: Cableguy

I saw a group of American missionaries who were allowed to go to Iran a few years ago. They had to promise not to speak the name of Jesus and they kept their promise, they only sang his name.


21 posted on 10/31/2004 8:22:23 PM PST by tiki (Win one against the Flipper)
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To: CzarNicky

"For the past 100 years"

I dont disagree. But what you see in the middle east today would be parrallel to the structure of the Catholic Church before the Reformation and im not sure if you want to defend the record of the catholic church. The Middle East hasn't made any relative progress in their culture since that time. So again I think a Reformation, a Renaissance, an Enlightenment, which produced the free and peaceful society we live in today.


22 posted on 10/31/2004 8:22:43 PM PST by Fallstaff
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To: Fallstaff

The Middle East does not need a new religion. It needs an Enlightenment. It needs rational thought. It needs democracy and capitialism. The problem IS islam but Christianity doesnt necessarily have the relatively peacful track record that free societies have.

Christianity is about developing a personal relationship with Jesus Christ. The peace it provides is spiritual and internal. The Bible clearly states that world peace is not going to happen until Jesus Christ returns.


23 posted on 10/31/2004 8:22:57 PM PST by excalibur21
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To: Floyd R Turbo

>South Korea has rapidly become the world's second largest source of Christian missionaries

Now if they would only send missionaries from Korea to America where there is such a need...


That's affirmative. We need to send missionaries to the blue states.


24 posted on 10/31/2004 8:23:56 PM PST by excalibur21
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To: excalibur21
but we could do an awful lot to crate peace of mind by wiping islam off the planet. Then we can while away the time till he gets back. Frankly I don't much cotton to nutjobs running planes into office buildings or setting off bombs because the rock they worship tells them to. If converting them to a more benign religion will keep them under control I am all for it.
25 posted on 10/31/2004 8:28:36 PM PST by CzarNicky (The problem with bad ideas is that they seemed like good ideas at the time.)
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To: excalibur21

"The peace it provides is spiritual and internal. The Bible clearly states that world peace is not going to happen until Jesus Christ returns."

Ok fine. I know I really cant debate anyone who has been completely indoctrinated. So if the entire world develops a personal relationship with Christ, then wouldn't the Bible be proven wrong?


26 posted on 10/31/2004 8:31:29 PM PST by Fallstaff
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To: Cableguy

***They come here full of energy and go out on the streets where they approach women and tell them Jesus loves them," Mr. Samir said. "By making such mistakes, they create problems not only for themselves and other Koreans, but also for us."***

I guess Jesus committed the same "mistake" when he spoke to the woman at the well in John 4!

I would imaging it might be the first time some of those women ever hear that anyone loved them.


27 posted on 10/31/2004 8:35:13 PM PST by PetroniusMaximus
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To: Cableguy
Shushhhh!!

Well, if it's in the NYTimes already, go ahead.

28 posted on 10/31/2004 9:11:09 PM PST by cookcounty (-Will John Kerry seek a 4th Purple Heart for fingers burnt in the Battle of Al-Qa Qaa?)
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To: Fallstaff

Thank you! Not saying that christians can't be rational, but there's enough problems between the Sunnis and the Shias without adding another religion to the mix! Religion can be a deadly weapon in the wrong hands!


29 posted on 10/31/2004 9:13:08 PM PST by TNdandelion
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To: joesnuffy

I have a son in Iraq. His opinion is that whether or not Iraq succeeds as a democracy depend ultimately on whether there is freedom of religion. Freedom of religion is the most fundamental freedom.. Freedom to think, talk, discuss and change your mind about the most basic questions: "Who am I?" "Who are we?" "What is good?" "Who is God?"


30 posted on 10/31/2004 9:24:12 PM PST by cookcounty (-Will John Kerry seek a 4th Purple Heart for fingers burnt in the Battle of Al-Qa Qaa?)
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To: Fallstaff
"Christianity doesnt necessarily have the relatively peacful track record that free societies have."

Free societies are rooted in Christian ideas ( technically, in Jewish ideas, which Christians have inherited), about what human beings are:

Namely,

Moral beings created in the image of God, exhibiting in that image His dignity, His significance, His astounding creativity, His affection for consistent moral choices. All free societies trace back to this root.

31 posted on 10/31/2004 9:31:33 PM PST by cookcounty (-Will John Kerry seek a 4th Purple Heart for fingers burnt in the Battle of Al-Qa Qaa?)
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To: joesnuffy

The elephant in the middle of this election is the hatred of Christianity in general and specifically Christians who believe by the left.


32 posted on 10/31/2004 9:41:37 PM PST by FreedomSurge
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To: Fallstaff

Oh YES!! Let's encourage them all to be ATHIESTS! The Godless path of secular humanism leads to death and destruction just as surely as their Islamofacism. The United States of America was founded on the principles of Christianity, which is not only the salvation of the world, but also has a MUCH GREATER "peaceful track record" than any socialist/humanist society ever has. The bad press that liberals have given Christianity dosen't equate with the foundation of universities, hospitals, and the many world charities and similar institutions that Christians in our country's history have spearheaded. We should emulate those good Korean missionaries and more aggressively seek to convert these Muslims in our midst to the way of Christ.


33 posted on 11/01/2004 3:51:34 AM PST by RedCobra
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To: TNdandelion; Cableguy; joesnuffy; Fallstaff; cookcounty
Religion can be a deadly weapon in the wrong hands!


Yeah...
all those evangelical suicide bombers can be hell.


The bible tells us that,"To the natural man (unbeliever) the cross is foolishness."

However, no one is beyond the reach of God.
34 posted on 11/01/2004 6:14:41 AM PST by dagoofyfoot
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To: Fallstaff

Ok fine. I know I really cant debate anyone who has been completely indoctrinated. So if the entire world develops a personal relationship with Christ, then wouldn't the Bible be proven wrong?

NO.


35 posted on 11/01/2004 8:24:21 AM PST by excalibur21
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To: Cableguy

God bless them all. I pray for their success.


36 posted on 11/01/2004 8:26:10 AM PST by desherwood7
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To: Floyd R Turbo

I agree with you wholeheartedly. May they all come.


37 posted on 11/01/2004 8:27:24 AM PST by desherwood7
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To: CzarNicky

but we could do an awful lot to crate peace of mind by wiping islam off the planet. Then we can while away the time till he gets back. Frankly I don't much cotton to nutjobs running planes into office buildings or setting off bombs because the rock they worship tells them to. If converting them to a more benign religion will keep them under control I am all for it.

The Bible says that there is a time to kill. I think you are safe to believe that you convert those you can convert and you kill those that you have to kill. In our case today, a lot of killing is most likely required.


38 posted on 11/01/2004 8:28:40 AM PST by excalibur21
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To: Cableguy

Dear brothers, sisters and friends,

Thank you for sharing your knowledge about the various religions, faiths and ways of life. Herewith are my findings based on my research of the various religious materials that I find and which are made available to me.

I am not implying in any way that my findings are right and that some of us are wrong but these are facts that I gathered from my own personal research, and it is up to each individual to verify these facts before you belief or agree to it.

As such before we start, let's set the basis that the New Testament (Bible) and the Final Testament (Qu'ran) does have similarities like this;

1. [Bible, 1 Peter 3:15] "Always be prepared to give an answer to everyone who asks you to give the reason for the hope that you have. But do this with gentleness and respect."

2. [Quran 16:125] "You shall invite to the path of your Lord with wisdom and kind enlightenment, and debate with them in the best possible manner. Your Lord knows best who has strayed from His path, and He knows best who are the guided ones."

3. Also, if we refer to Commandment number two in Exodus 20: 1-17 & Deuteronomy 5: 6-21 says; "Thou shall make no image of God". Refering to this commandment, I think it is logical and wise of us not to use any symbol, cross or picture to relate to God.


Now, did Jesus ever make statements regarding his status by the words, the will and the power he used? Let's find out.




Part 1: Did Jesus deny being God?




WORDS
-----

Joh 7:16 Jesus answered them and said, "My doctrine is not Mine, but His who sent Me.

Joh 14:24 "He who does not love Me does not keep My words; and the word which you hear is not Mine but the Father's who sent Me.

Joh 12:49 "For I have not spoken on My own authority; but the Father who sent Me gave Me a command, what I should say and what I should speak.


WILL
----

Joh 4:34 Jesus said to them, "My food is to do the will of him who sent me, and to accomplish his work.

Joh 6:38 "For I have come down from heaven, not to do My own will, but the will of Him who sent Me.

Lu 22:42 saying, "Father, if it is Your will, take this cup away from Me; nevertheless not My will, but Yours, be done."


POWER
-----

Joh 5:30 "I can of Myself do nothing. As I hear, I judge; and My judgment is righteous, because I do not seek My own will but the will of the Father who sent Me.

Joh 8:42 Jesus said to them, "If God were your Father, you would love me, for I proceeded and came forth from God; I came not of my own accord, but He sent me.


KNOWLEDGE



Mr 13:32 "But of that day and hour no one knows, not even the angels in heaven, nor the Son, but only the Father.

Mt 24:36 "But of that day and hour no one knows, not even the angels of heaven, but my Father only.

Joh 7:16 So Jesus answered them, "My teaching is not mine, but His who sent me.


STATUS
------

Mt 7:21 "Not everyone who says to Me, 'Lord, Lord,' shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who "does the will of My Father" in heaven.

Mr 10:18 And Jesus said to him, "Why do you call me good? No one is good but God alone.

8:50 "And I do not seek My own glory; there is One who seeks and judges.


Some Christians, (not all) claim that Jesus implied that he was God. From the above verses, we see that Jesus ***denied*** being God. It now leaves the Christians who believe Jesus is God to provide just one single verse in the Bible where Jesus says "I am God". There is no such
verse, so we see from the many quotes above, that the House did not belong to Jesus, it belonged to the ONE WHO SENT him.


Note: You may want to refer to www.submission.org/jesus-god.html for full details and read the relevant testaments for proof and verification.




Part 2: Is Jesus the Unique son of God?



Now, about Jesus being the son of God, or so-called Unique Son of God, if we read the Torah, the Gospel and the Quran, we will find the following;

The Bible confirms that Jesus is not the unique son of God.

"And thou [Moses] shalt say unto Pharaoh, Thus saith the Lord, Israel is my son, even my first born." (Exodus 4:22),

"He [Solomon] shall build a house for my name, and I will establish the throne of his kingdom for ever. I will be his father and he shall be my son." (II Samuel 7:13-14),

"I am a father to Israel and Ephraim is my firstborn" (Jeremiah 31:9), 'long before Jesus was born', "I will declare the decree:the Lord hath said unto me [David], Thou art my son; this day have I begotten thee."(Psalm 2:7), and "Seth, which was the son of Adam, which was the
son of God"(Luke3:38).

Do the few I mentioned have this "unique begotten son relationship"? Is Jesus still unique because he had no father? Well brothers and sisters, Adam and Eve had no father or mother. Jesus is a word of God, God said
"be" and then Jesus was created, Quran 19:9. It is Blasphemy to say God begotten (sired) Jesus.

Jesus called himself son of man and refused to be called son of God.

"And the devils also came out of many, crying out, and saying, Thou art Christ the Son of God. And he rebuking them suffered them not to speak; for they knew that he was Christ." (Luke 4:11)

and again "He [Jesus] said unto them [the disciples], But whom say ye that I am? Peter answering said, The Christ of God. And he straightly charged them, and commanded them to tell no man that thing." (Luke 9:20 and 21).




Part 3: Did Jesus say, "Only Begotten?"



Jesus called God his Father, but if we look closer we see that many other Prophets called God, their Father and no Prophet including Jesus called themselves the only begotten son of God, except for David (Psalm 2:7) KJV.


Now let's see the Prophets who called God their Father, identically to Jesus:


".....What shall I do when my heavenly Father hath so commanded me? (Sifra to Lev; Qedoshim 20,26)

"....Since I have done the will of Abba who is in the Heavens "(Lev R para 32)

"......These buffetings have made me Love my heavenly father" (Midr.Tehillim 12:5)"

"I will exalt the lord saying 'thou art my father" (ibid 51:10)

"Beloved are Israel for they are called Son of the Highest" (Aboth 3:3)



Now, lets see what the Jews wrote in their Apocryphal books .


"But thy providence O Father Governeth it" (Wis. 14:3)

"O Lord, Father and governor of all my life.."(Eccl 23:1)

"O Lord , Father and God of my life.."(Eccl 23:4)

The term "Our Father which art in Heaven" is one of the three major forms of the address in Jewish liturgy.


-------
Torah
-------

The following verse is God talking to David about Solomon;

"I will be His Father and he will be my son. I will never take my love away from him, as I took it away from your predecessor. (Chronicles 17:13)

Yet the Israelites will be like the sand on the seashore, which can not be measured or counted. In the place where it is said to them, 'You are not my people,' they will be called 'sons of the living God. (Hosea 1:10)

The kings of Israel are referred to as sons of God because they are to be His representatives, ruling in his place on earth over His people.

"I said, You are Elokim; you are all sons of the Most High" (Psalm 82:6)

In conclusion, we see that Jesus only said a phrase that was commonly said by Jews in his days, and Jesus did not claim to have a monopoly on son-ship with God. We are all God's children, Jesus is not the only one and never claimed to be the Begotten one.


Note: You may want to refer to www.submission.org/jesus-begotten.html for full details and read the relevant testaments for proof and verification.




Part 4: Submission (Islam) call on all the Jews and Christians



In the name of God, Most Gracious, Most Merciful

Say, "O followers of the scripture, let us come to a logical agreement between us and you: that we shall not worship except GOD; that we never set up any idols besides Him, nor set up any human beings as lords beside GOD." If they turn away, say, "Bear witness that we are submitters." [Quran 3:64]




Call on the Jews



In the name of God, Most Gracious, Most Merciful

O Children of Israel, remember My favor, which I bestowed upon you, and fulfill your part of the covenant, that I fulfill My part of the covenant, and reverence Me. [2:40]

You shall believe in what I have revealed herein, confirming what you have; do not be the first to reject it. Do not trade away My revelations for a cheap price, and observe Me. [2:41]

Do not confound the truth with falsehood, nor shall you conceal the truth, knowingly. [2:42]

You shall observe the Contact Prayers (Salat) and give the obligatory charity (Zakat), and bow down with those who bow down. [2:43]

Do you exhort the people to be righteous, while forgetting yourselves, though you read the scripture? Do you not understand? [2:44]

You shall seek help through steadfastness and the Contact Prayers (Salat). This is difficult indeed, but not so for the reverent, [2:45]

who believe that they will meet their Lord; that to Him they ultimately return. [2:46]

O Children of Israel, remember My favor which I bestowed upon you, and that I blessed you more than any other people. [2:47]

Beware of the day when no soul can avail another soul, no intercession will be accepted, no ransom can be paid, nor can anyone be helped. [2:48]

Recall that we saved you from Pharaoh's people who inflicted upon you the worst persecution, slaying your sons and sparing your daughters. That was an exacting test from your Lord. [2:49]

Recall that we parted the sea for you; we saved you and drowned Pharaoh's people before your eyes. [2:50]

Yet, when we summoned Moses for forty nights, you worshiped the calf in his absence, and turned wicked. [2:51]

Still, we pardoned you thereafter that you may be appreciative. [2:52]

Recall that we gave Moses scripture and the statute book, that you may be guided. [2:53]

Recall that Moses said to his people, "O my people, you have wronged your souls by worshiping the calf. You must repent to your Creator. You shall kill your egos. This is better for you in the sight of your Creator." He did redeem you. He is the Redeemer, Most Merciful. [2:54]

Recall that you said, "O Moses, we will not believe unless we see GOD, physically." Consequently, the lightning struck you, as you looked. [2:55]

It is noteworthy that the word "GOD" in this verse is the 19th occurrence, and this is the verse where the people demanded "physical evidence." The Quran's mathematical code, based on the number 19, provides such physical evidence. Note also that 2+55=57=19x3.

[2:56] We then revived you, after you had died, that you may be appreciative.

[2:57] We shaded you with clouds (in Sinai), and sent down to you manna and quails: "Eat from the good things we provided for you." They did not hurt us (by rebelling); they only hurt their own souls.

[2:58] Recall that we said, "Enter this town, where you will find as many provisions as you like. Just enter the gate humbly, and treat the people nicely. We will then forgive your sins, and increase the reward for the pious."

[2:59] But the wicked among them carried out commands other than the commands given to them. Consequently, we sent down upon the transgressors condemnation from the sky, due to their wickedness.

[2:60] Recall that Moses sought water for his people. We said, "Strike the rock with your staff." Whereupon, twelve springs gushed out therefrom. The members of each tribe knew their own water. Eat and drink from GOD's provisions, and do not roam the earth corruptingly.

[2:61] Recall that you said, "O Moses, we can no longer tolerate one kind of food. Call upon your Lord to produce for us such earthly crops as beans, cucumbers, garlic, lentils, and onions." He said, "Do you wish to substitute that which is inferior for that which is good? Go down to
Egypt, where you can find what you asked for." They have incurred condemnation, humiliation, and disgrace, and brought upon themselves wrath from GOD. This is because they rejected GOD's revelations, and killed the prophets unjustly. This is because they disobeyed and transgressed.

[2:62] Surely, those who believe, those who are Jewish, the Christians, and the converts; anyone who (1) believes in GOD, and (2) believes in the Last Day, and (3) leads a righteous life, will receive their recompense from their Lord. They have nothing to fear, nor will they grieve.

To read more about Submission (Islam) call on the Jews, read Sura (chapter) 2 of the Quran. http://www.submission.org/christians/call-jews.html


Islam (Submission to the will of God) is the same and only religion ever given to the human race. It is the religion of Noah, Abraham, Isaac, Ishmael, Jacob, Joseph, Moses, David, Solomon, Jesus, Muhammed and all the other messengers mentioned or not mentioned in the scripture. The Ten Commandments as we see them here are not any more
than the same message given to the prophet Muhammed . See the following table;

4) http://www.submission.org/quran/ten.html


That's all for now that I can share for now my dearest brothers, sisters and friends. I hope you will be enlightened and after reading the materials I provide, start seeking the truth, facts and evidence.

May God bless us all.


--submitter25524


39 posted on 11/15/2004 10:39:44 AM PST by submitter25524
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Comment #40 Removed by Moderator

Comment #41 Removed by Moderator

To: submitter25524

Welcome to FR... spamming?


42 posted on 11/15/2004 10:41:39 AM PST by cyborg
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To: Cableguy
................bottom................BOTTOM Line.........

..........?.....What 'is' Idolatry?

/WorldViews

43 posted on 11/15/2004 10:45:17 AM PST by maestro
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To: Tribune7
God Bless South Korea.

I actually think that there are more missionaries than the article said from the U.S. That is astounding that Korea has that many.

44 posted on 05/18/2005 8:11:43 AM PDT by moog
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