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No Peter the Great (Putin Raises a Glass to Lenin, Stalin, Andropov).
National Review Online (NRO) ^ | Ion Pacepa

Posted on 11/01/2004 4:34:15 PM PST by TapTheSource

September 20, 2004, 8:14 a.m. No Peter the Great Vladimir Putin is in the Andropov mold.

By Ion Mihai Pacepa

Vladimir Putin looks more and more like a heavy-handed imitation of Yuri Andropov — does anyone still remember him? Andropov was that other KGB chairman who rose all the way up to the Kremlin throne, and who was also once my de facto boss. Considering that Putin has inherited upwards of 6,000 suspected strategic nuclear weapons, this is frightening news.

Former KGB officers are now running Russia's government, just as they did during Andropov's reign, and the Kremlin's image — another Andropov specialty — continues to be more important than people's real lives in that still-inscrutable country. The government's recent catastrophic Beslan operation was a reenactment of the effort to "rescue" 2,000 people from Moscow's Dubrovka Theater, where the "new" KGB flooded the hall with fentanyl gas and caused the death of 129 hostages. No wonder Putin ordered Andropov's statue — which had been removed after the Soviet Union's collapse in 1991 — reinstalled at the Lubyanka.

In the West, if Andropov is remembered at all, it is for his brutal suppression of political dissidence at home and for his role in planning the 1968 invasion of Czechoslovakia. By contrast, the leaders of the former Warsaw Pact intelligence community, when I was one of them, looked up to Andropov as the man who substituted the KGB for the Communist party in governing the Soviet Union, and who was the godfather of Russia's new era of deception operations aimed at improving the badly damaged image of Soviet rulers in the West.

In early 2000, President Putin divided Russia into seven "super" districts, each headed by a "presidential representative," and he gave five of these seven new posts to former KGB officers. Soon, his KGB colleagues occupied nearly 50 percent of the top government positions in Moscow. In a brief interview with Ted Koppel on Nightline, Putin admitted that he had stuffed the Kremlin with former KGB officers, but he said it was because he wanted to root out graft. "I have known them for many years and I trust them. It has nothing to do with ideology. It's simply a matter of their professional qualities and personal relationship."

THE NATIONAL POLITICAL PASTIME In reality, it's an old Russian tradition to fill the most important governmental positions with undercover intelligence officers. The czarist Okhrana security service planted its agents everywhere: in the central and local government, and in political parties, labor unions, churches, and newspapers. Until 1913, Pravda itself was edited by one of them, Roman Malinovsky, who rose to become Lenin's deputy for Russia and the chairman of the Bolshevik faction in the Duma.

Andropov Sovietized that Russian tradition and extended its application nationwide. It was something similar to militarizing the government in wartime, but it was accomplished by the KGB. In 1972, when he launched this new offensive, KGB Chairman Andropov told me that this would help eliminate the current plague of theft and bureaucratic chaos and would combat the growing sympathy for American jazz, films, and blue jeans obsessing the younger Soviet generation. Andropov's new undercover officers were secretly remunerated with tax-free salary supplements and job promotions. In exchange, Andropov explained, they would secretly have to obey "our" military regulations, practice "our" military discipline and carry out "our" tasks, if they wanted to keep their jobs. Of course, the KGB had long been using diplomatic cover slots for its officers assigned abroad, but Andropov's new approach was designed to influence the Soviet Union itself.

The lines separating the leadership of the country from the intelligence apparatus had blurred in the Soviet satellites as well. After I was granted political asylum in the United States in July 1978, the Western media reported that my defection had unleashed the greatest political purge in the history of Communist Romania. Ceausescu had demoted politburo members, fired one-third of his cabinet, and replaced ambassadors. All were undercover intelligence officers whose military documents and pay vouchers I had regularly signed off on.

THE MAKING OF A DICTATOR General Aleksandr Sakharovsky, the Soviet gauleiter of Romania who rose to head the Soviet foreign intelligence service for an unprecedented 15 years, used to predict to me that KGB Chairman Andropov would soon have the whole Soviet bloc in his vest pocket, and that he would surely end up in the Kremlin. Andropov would have to wait ten years until Brezhnev died, but on November 12, 1982, he did take up the country's reins. Once settled in the Kremlin, Andropov surrounded himself with KGB officers, who immediately went on a propaganda offensive to introduce him to the West as a "moderate" Communist and a sensitive, warm, Western-oriented man who allegedly enjoyed an occasional drink of Scotch, liked to read English novels, and loved listening to American jazz and the music of Beethoven. In actual fact, Andropov did not drink, as he was already terminally ill from a kidney disorder, and the rest of the portrayal was equally false.

In 1999, when Putin became prime minister, he also surrounded himself with KGB officers, who began describing him as a "Europeanized" leader — capitalizing, ironically, on the fact that he had been a KGB spy abroad. Yet Putin's only foreign experience had been in East Germany, on Moscow's side of the Berlin Wall. Soon after that I visited the Stasi headquarters in Leipzig and Dresden to see where Putin had spent his "Europeanizing" years. Local representatives of the Gauck Commission — a special post-Communism German panel researching the Stasi files — said that the "Soviet-German 'friendship house'" Putin headed for six years was actually a KGB front with operational offices at the Leipzig and Dresden Stasi headquarters. Putin's real task was to recruit East German engineers as KGB agents and send them to the West to steal American technologies.

I visited those offices and found that they looked just like the offices of my own midlevel case officers in regional Securitate directorates in Romania. Yet Moscow claims Putin had held an important job in East Germany and was decorated by the East German government. The Gauck Commission confirmed that Putin was decorated in 1988 "for his KGB work in the East German cities of Dresden and Leipzig." According to the West German magazine Der Spiegel, he received a bronze medal from the East German Stasi as a "typical representative of second-rank agents." There, in those prison-like buildings, cut off even from real East German life by Stasi guards with machine guns and police dogs, Lieutenant Colonel Putin could not possibly have become the modern-day, Western-oriented Peter the Great that the Kremlin's propaganda machine is so energetically spinning.

Indeed, on December 20, 1999, Russia's newly appointed prime minister visited the Lubyanka to deliver a speech on this "memorable day," commemorating Lenin's founding of the first Soviet political police, the Cheka. "Several years ago we fell prey to the illusion that we have no enemies," Putin told a meeting of top security officials. "We have paid dearly for this. Russia has its own national interests, and we have to defend them." The following day, December 21, 1999, another "memorable day" in Soviet history — Stalin's 120th birthday — Putin organized a closed-door reception in his Kremlin office reported as being for the politicians who had won seats in the Duma. There he raised a glass to good old Iosif Vissarionovich Dzhugashvili (Stalin, meaning "man of steel," was the dictator's nom de guerre).

Days later, in a 14-page article entitled "Russia on the Threshold of a New Millennium," Putin defined Russia's new "democratic" future: "The state must be where and as needed; freedom must be where and as required." The Chechens' effort to regain their independence was mere "terrorism," and he pledged to eradicate it: "We'll get them anywhere — if we find terrorists sitting in the outhouse, then we will piss on them there. The matter is settled." It is not.

SCAPEGOATING AND CONSOLIDATING On September 9, 2004, Chechen nationalists announced a $20 million prize on the head of the "war criminal" Vladimir Putin, whom they accuse of "murdering hundreds of thousands of peaceful civilians on the territory of Chechnya, including tens of thousands of children."

For his part, President Putin tried to divert the outrage over the horrific Breslan catastrophe away from his KGB colleagues who had caused it, and to direct public anger toward the KGB's archenemy, the U.S. Citing meetings of mid-level U.S. officials with Chechen leaders, Putin accused Washington of having a double standard when dealing with terrorism. "Why don't you meet Osama bin Laden, invite him to Brussels or to the White House and engage in talks, ask him what he wants and give it to him so he leaves you in peace?" Putin told reporters in Moscow.

Then Putin blamed the collapse of the Soviet Union for what he called a "full scale" terrorist war against Russia and started taking Soviet-style steps to strengthen the Kremlin's power. On September 13, he announced measures to eliminate the election of the country's governors, who should now be appointed by the Kremlin, and to allow only "certified" people — that is, former KGB officers — to run for the parliament.

When the Soviet Union collapsed, its people had a unique opportunity to cast out their political police, a peculiarly Russian instrument of power that has for centuries isolated their country from the real world and in the end left them ill-equipped to deal with the complexities of modern society. Unfortunately, up until then most Russians had never owned property, had never experienced a free-market economy, and had never made decisions for themselves. Under Communism they were taught to despise Western democracy and everything they believed to be connected with capitalism, e.g., free enterprise, decision-making, hard work, risk-taking, and social inequality. Moreover, the Russians had also had minimal experience with real political parties, since their country has been a police state since the 16th century. To them, it seemed easier to continue the tradition of the political police state than to take the risk of starting everything anew.

But the times have changed dramatically. My native country, which borders Russia, is a good example. At first, Romania's post-Communism rulers, for whom managing the country with the help of the political police was the only form of government they had ever known, bent over backwards to preserve the KGB-created Securitate, a criminal organization that became the symbol of Communist tyranny in the West. Article 27 of Romania's 1990 law for organizing the new intelligence services stated that only former Securitate officers "who have been found guilty of crimes against fundamental human rights and against freedom" could not be employed in the "new" intelligence services. In other words, only Ceausescu would not have been eligible for employment there. Today, Romania still has the same president as in 1990, but his country is now a member of NATO and is helping the U.S. to rid the world of Cold War-style dictators and the terrorism they generated.

Russia can also break with its Communist past and join our fight against despots and terrorists. We can help them do it, but first we should have a clear understanding of what is now going on behind the veil of secrecy that still surrounds the Kremlin.

— Ion Mihai Pacepa, a former two-star general, is the highest-ranking intelligence officer to have defected from the Soviet bloc. His book Red Horizons has been republished in 27 countries.


TOPICS: Crime/Corruption; Extended News; Foreign Affairs; News/Current Events; Russia; War on Terror
KEYWORDS: andropov; ionmihaipacepa; kgb; pacepa; peterthegreat; putin
Navigation: use the links below to view more comments.
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Putin our ally in the War on Terror?...Think again. As this article succinctly points out, Putin has been busying himself bringing back the old Soviet Union.

In addition, he and his KGB minions oppose us in the UN, sell weapons to our sworn enemies, build Iran's nuclear capability (!!!), sold Saddam explosives and then helped him smuggle out the same (and possibly WMD), provided Saddam's Baathists with night vision goggles, GPS-jamming equipement, and anti-tank missiles to kill our troops all the way up until Gulf War II started, they disrupt our alliances in Europe, build subs for the narco-terrorists (FARC) in Columbia, sell fighter planes and helicopters to the Communists in Venezuela...the list goes on and on. The question remains: Why on earth are we calling Putin's Russia an ally in the War on Terror?

For more on this, please consult the following links:

Russia Tied to Iraq's Missing Arms (Gertz)

http://washingtontimes.com/national/20041028-122637-6257r.htm

Two Russian Generals Given Awards on War Eve (Gertz)

http://washingtontimes.com/national/20041029-110322-3343r.htm

Ex-spy fingers Russians on WMD

http://www.washtimes.com/op-ed/20030820-081256-6822r.htm

The Plot to Hijack the CIA

http://www.anti-communistanalyst.com/PlottohijackCIA.htm

Russia's Aims in the Middle East (Still pushing Middle East "Peace" Process)

http://www.anti-communistanalyst.com/Russiasgame.htm

1 posted on 11/01/2004 4:34:17 PM PST by TapTheSource
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To: dennisw; Cachelot; Yehuda; Nix 2; veronica; Catspaw; knighthawk; Alouette; Optimist; weikel; ...

ping


2 posted on 11/01/2004 4:36:14 PM PST by TapTheSource
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To: TapTheSource

If Russia continues down this path it will only isolate itself further, and risk war with its former subject states. Putin is bringing back the Cold War one power grab at a time.


3 posted on 11/01/2004 4:47:13 PM PST by WestVirginiaRebel ("Vote for Kerry for your own security. I'm Osama Bin Laden and I approved this message.")
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To: TapTheSource

You all know this one...

http://www.jbs.org/


4 posted on 11/01/2004 4:48:25 PM PST by Edgerunner (The left ain't right. Hand me that launch pickle...)
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To: TapTheSource
PS Not only should this cause the US to reevaluate it's relationship with Putin's Russia, it should also give Israel pause given the information contained in the "Russia's Aims in the Middle East" link in post #2. Putin is a product of the Soviet KGB, whose policy was to support radical Arab regimes and terrorists like Arafat in order to remove Israel from obstructing their longterm strategy to unite the Middle East against the US (and the West).
5 posted on 11/01/2004 4:50:10 PM PST by TapTheSource
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To: TapTheSource

You all know this one...

http://www.jbs.org/


6 posted on 11/01/2004 4:50:24 PM PST by Edgerunner (The left ain't right. Hand me that launch pickle...)
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To: OHelix

ping for later


7 posted on 11/01/2004 4:53:15 PM PST by OHelix
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To: TapTheSource
"In other words, only Ceausescu would not have been eligible for employment there. Today, Romania still has the same president as in 1990"

Is the author trying to hint that maybe we shouldn't even be trusting Romania that much?

If they have had the same leader for almost 15 years, and they have the same scumbags working for their secret service, maybe Romania is just being used by the Soviets to gather military intelligence and technology transfers.

8 posted on 11/01/2004 4:53:29 PM PST by who_would_fardels_bear
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To: WestVirginiaRebel

"If Russia continues down this path it will only isolate itself further, and risk war with its former subject states. Putin is bringing back the Cold War one power grab at a time."

And don't think for a moment that Putin doesn't have designs on Western Europe and the EU. They have already signed bilateral treaties/agreements with France and Germany that require that they coordinate their respective foreign policies. Most people are not aware of this, but it is a very dangerous development.


9 posted on 11/01/2004 4:54:19 PM PST by TapTheSource
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To: TapTheSource
In the West, if Andropov is remembered at all, it is for his brutal suppression of political dissidence at home and for his role in planning the 1968 invasion of Czechoslovakia.

Andropov was also the honcho during the KAL 007 incident. No, it wasn't a James Bond movie. It was Soviet interceptors shooting down a Korean airliner (a loaded 747 if I remember right) near the southern Kamchatka peninsula. A Republican US Congressman was among the hundreds of casualties. Radio intercept sites in Japan recorded the matter-of-fact, laconic air chatter among the Russian pilots during the shootdown.

Relations weren't very good for a while after that. It's discouraging to hear Putin's toasting him, but then Stalin and Lenin are pretty bad role models too.

10 posted on 11/01/2004 4:56:07 PM PST by VadeRetro (A self-reliant conservative citizenry is a better bet than the subjects of an overbearing state. -MS)
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To: who_would_fardels_bear

"If they have had the same leader for almost 15 years, and they have the same scumbags working for their secret service, maybe Romania is just being used by the Soviets to gather military intelligence and technology transfers."

Precisely. We need to take a good hard look at the leadership of every former bloc state.


11 posted on 11/01/2004 4:56:19 PM PST by TapTheSource
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To: TapTheSource

When he became President Putin disclosed: "when I was serving in the KGB in Germany, I always wore a cross under my shirt"

Since I believe him, I am willing to give him a break when it comes to governing Russia and dealing with the Muslim terrorists at this crucial time.


12 posted on 11/01/2004 4:56:29 PM PST by eleni121 (: the kurds.)
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To: TapTheSource

=== it should also give Israel pause


Keep dreamin', comrade.


13 posted on 11/01/2004 5:03:25 PM PST by Askel5 ( Cooperatio voluntaria ad suicidium est legi morali contraria. )
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To: TapTheSource

Sorry, this is a better link:

http://www.jbs.org/docs/tangents.pdf

It is a short pdf file


14 posted on 11/01/2004 5:06:05 PM PST by Edgerunner (The left ain't right. Hand me that launch pickle...)
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To: eleni121

"When he became President Putin disclosed: "when I was serving in the KGB in Germany, I always wore a cross under my shirt"

I highly doubt he ever wore a cross under his shirt while serving in the KGB. More than likely he's attempting to dupe the Russian Othodox community (both at home and abroad) into going along with his increasingly authoritarian plans. Besides, how on earth could he be a Christian on the one hand and raise a glass to atheistic Communist murderers like Lenin, Stalin, and Andropov on the other? They are mutually exclusive.


15 posted on 11/01/2004 5:07:19 PM PST by TapTheSource
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To: TapTheSource
Thanks for this post; Mihai Pacepa writes an excellent article.

I concur with your assesment of Putin's "sovietisation", and have to wonder why the President is so eager to embrace him in this terror war. I hope the President wins a second term tomorrow, but he has a LOT of explaining to do.

SOMETHING IS WRONG HERE

16 posted on 11/01/2004 5:07:56 PM PST by t_skoz ("let me be who I am - let me kick out the jams!")
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To: t_skoz

Yeah, something is wrong. I don't see the remains of Hans Blix floating in the fish tank!


17 posted on 11/01/2004 5:09:42 PM PST by who_would_fardels_bear
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To: TapTheSource

ping


18 posted on 11/01/2004 5:14:45 PM PST by itslex71 (southern by birth, republican by the grace of my dad)
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To: Askel5
"Keep dreamin', comrade."

Sooner or later they will wake up (if they don't know already). As I said before, Israel is going through the same internal conservative vs. socialist battle we are in the United States. And just like our own CIA, the vast majority of Mossad agents were drawn from the political Left. But this complexion will begin to change as the younger generation begins to take over (in both countries). The question is, will this change take place in time? And in that regard, I prefer to taking an active role by praying...as opposed to dreaming.
19 posted on 11/01/2004 5:16:36 PM PST by TapTheSource
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To: t_skoz

"I hope the President wins a second term tomorrow, but he has a LOT of explaining to do."

Which should commence immediately after his re-election...that's what second terms are for!!! Thanks for the post (and the scary pictures).


20 posted on 11/01/2004 5:27:55 PM PST by TapTheSource
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To: Edgerunner

Thanks for the link.


21 posted on 11/01/2004 5:30:05 PM PST by TapTheSource
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To: TapTheSource

=== But this complexion will begin to change as the younger generation begins to take over (in both countries).


You believe the younger generation is more "conservative" somehow?

You base this on what ... the way no one balks when the President quotes Scripture in Prime-Time as he pitches the use of Excess human beings for state-funded "humanitarian" research?

Buy a clue, TaptheSource. It's time you understood the FACT that the best friends the communists ever had are the so-called "pro-lifer" leadership of the so-called "conservative" party who laid out in the Congressional Record, no less, the Talking Points of the Democratic Party to date.

I think if you would hang your hat first and foremost on that Conscience which all men share rather than see the world strictly through a prism of personally interpretated Scripture to which all men are neither privy nor inclined, your prayer might be even more effective for it would center on the heart of the matter.

Seriously ... doesn't it nag at you in the least the way your model only goes so far and then becomes Complete Nonsense? That should bother you. There should be a reason for that.

I did accidentally delete a longwinded reply to you and another on various subjects the other day. I'll try to cobble it back together. But for now, understand that I didn't realize until a couple years ago that Israel was formed by UN fiat. I learned that AFTER I found out Haig took the reins for the most part of Kissinger's Narcotic's Council in the Nixon Administration, George H. Bush was our first ambassador to China and it was the GOP who first claimed abortion was "vital" to the Solution of population control.

That's when things started making sense for me, guy. =)

Seriously ... this "conservative=liberal" thing's just a red herring to keep folks busy on a safely Horizontal plane such that they don't much pay attention to the fact (or better yet, excuse same on account of "politics") that Bush fetes Kennedy and Dole fetes Clinton and -- to quote Cohen while speaking on a dais loaded with the GOP and Dem perma-leadership for the last two generations -- "The message they're sending is essentially the same thing."

If you would look through the telescope at others THE SAME WAY as you examine evil commies, I really do think your arguments would become even more strong.

Took me forever to get that far. I still refuse to turn the scope on Reagan too closely because -- like you -- there are certain sentimental attachments I just am not going to give up. He's the only GOP leader I know who's actually articulated a persuasive and solid defense of human life ... and one which would villify without question his wife's alleged support for stem cell research which relies on the purposed destruction of artificial reproduction's Collateral Damage once the more perfect Potential People are harvested and culled to order.


22 posted on 11/01/2004 5:46:57 PM PST by Askel5 ( Cooperatio voluntaria ad suicidium est legi morali contraria. )
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To: struwwelpeter; svni; nunya bidness
=== When he became President Putin disclosed: "when I was serving in the KGB in Germany, I always wore a cross under my shirt"

Any guesses on his favorite philosopher?

.....

W.H. Auden famously called the 1930s a "low, dishonest decade." What we see in Russia today is a low, dishonest decadence.

Perhaps the most striking example of the way these factors shape Russian society is the country's progressive depopulation. Russia combines one of the lowest birth rates in the world with the death rate of a country at war. According to Igor Gundarov, the head of the Russian state center for prophylactic medicine, if present trends continue, the population of Russia will be reduced by half in 80 years, to about 73 million, making the present Russian state untenable.

In the years 1992-94 there was an almost vertical rise in the death rate. Mortality rose one-and-a-half times by comparison with the second half of the 1980s. The rise was so dramatic that Western demographers at first did not believe the figures.

The rise in the death rate was explained as a result of the sudden impoverishment of the population. Poverty alone, however, could not have been the reason for the rise in deaths. The economic level in the 1990s fell to that of the 1960s but in the 1960s the death rate in the Soviet Union was the lowest in the developed world. Gundarov concluded that poverty, state encouraged alcoholism, and the downgrading of the system of public health accounted for only 20 percent of the reduction in longevity in Russia.

The remaining 80 percent was attributable to the spiritual condition of the population in the wake of the failure to offer any new ideal for Russian society after the fall of communism. "There proceeded an attempt to 'transplant souls' and replace the old, non-market soul with a new, pragmatic businesslike approach to life," Gundarov said. This change was unaccompanied by an effort to provide . . . a reason for which the change should be undertaken. For many people, who needed something to live for, this change was intolerable and they lost the will to live because life no longer had any meaning.

Nikolai Berdyaev, the Russian religious philosopher, wrote that, In the soul of the Russian people, there should appear an immanent religiosity and immanent morality for which a higher spiritual beginning creates internally a transfiguring and creative beginning. In this, he saw the hope for the future. The Russian people, he wrote, need to enrich themselves with new values and replace a "slavish religious and social psychology" with a "free religious and social psychology." They need to recognize the godliness of human honesty and honor. "At that point", he wrote, "the creative instincts will defeat the rapacious ones." We and the Russian people are still waiting for "that point."

A Low, Dishonest Decadence: A Letter from Moscow
The National Interest -- Summer 2003
By David Satter


It is shortsighted to judge Russia's progress by superficial materialist measures
--or have we forgotten what the Cold War was really about?

Hot Wars Destroy Bodies
Cold Wars are Fought for Souls

23 posted on 11/01/2004 6:00:23 PM PST by Askel5 ( Cooperatio voluntaria ad suicidium est legi morali contraria. )
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To: Askel5
Pravda.RU:Columnists:More in detail
13:00 2003-03-17
New Scrutiny of Role of Religion in Bush's Policies
24 posted on 11/01/2004 6:03:10 PM PST by Askel5 ( Cooperatio voluntaria ad suicidium est legi morali contraria. )
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To: TapTheSource; Quix; HipShot; Godzilla; jerseygirl; Honestly; Cindy; MamaDearest
I just read a similar article on RAPTURE READY which stated the following (approximately) and with which I fully concur.

Putin begins to seriously worry me. He's starting to strongly resemble the military commander of Gog, as Bible prophesy seems to show that a Russian will lead an army against Israel in the last battle we call Armageddon. If Russia moves to send any sort of military force to the region in order to balance Israeli military presence, I'd say it was something to be greatly concerned about! I can't see the events of Ezekiel 38 and 39 being played out before the Church is raptured off the planet.

25 posted on 11/01/2004 6:08:39 PM PST by ExSoldier (When the going gets tough, the tough go cyclic.)
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To: TapTheSource
how on earth could he be a Christian on the one hand and raise a glass to atheistic Communist murderers like Lenin, Stalin, and Andropov on the other?

Our country was founded by folks who had the gumption to get on ships and cross oceans into the unknown, when such things had a 20% chance or higher of leading to death, to escape tyranny and injustice, so we have no idea how difficult it is for a country to change its leadership from absolute monarchy. Remember that Lenin lead the revolution against the Tsarist regime - which must have been somewhat less pleasant than the regime of Louis 14, 15, and 16, and in case you don't know how bad they were, read our founding fathers. They will tell you. Then Stalin had to deal with Hitler.

Don't get me wrong - I have no truck with Stalin or Lenin, but I'm not going to fault Putin for toasting the men who founded modern Russia.

26 posted on 11/01/2004 6:10:09 PM PST by AndyJackson
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To: Askel5
The UN was irrelevant. Israel became a nation by declaring independence and winning the war of independence. The US was the first nation to recognize Israel, not the UN. The UN put forward an unworkable partition plan that rendered Israel completely defenseless against her Arab enemies. The only reason Israel got enough votes for the partition plan was because the Soviets figured Israel would become a Communists, or at least a non-aligned, state. The Soviets were too late to realize that the Irgun had by that time completely dashed their plans (and over the violent--and I mean violent--objections of the socialist Ben Gurion).
27 posted on 11/01/2004 6:14:25 PM PST by TapTheSource
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To: TapTheSource

=== The Soviets were too late to realize that the Irgun had by that time completely dashed their plans (and over the violent--and I mean violent--objections of the socialist Ben Gurion).


Oh pleeeeezzz don't throw me in da briar patch!!

(He was quite the fundraiser for a socialist, no? Funny how that works out ... 'course I'm just fresh from a Chicom capitalism thread so it's possible the smog of their Industrial Revolution's fogging my glasses somewhat. =)


28 posted on 11/01/2004 6:18:15 PM PST by Askel5 ( Cooperatio voluntaria ad suicidium est legi morali contraria. )
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To: Askel5
I've been reading (paragraph a day) Chantal Delsol Icarus Fallen. You might like it. In a part called The Revelations of the Devil there are found these chapter titles: The Morality of Complacency; A Morality of Emotion and Indignation; The Clandestine Ideology of our Time.
29 posted on 11/01/2004 6:27:09 PM PST by cornelis
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To: cornelis

Any recommendation from you is a must-read. Thanks Cornelis.


30 posted on 11/01/2004 6:29:45 PM PST by Askel5 ( Cooperatio voluntaria ad suicidium est legi morali contraria. )
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To: AndyJackson

"Don't get me wrong - I have no truck with Stalin or Lenin, but I'm not going to fault Putin for toasting the men who founded modern Russia."


You think Lenin and Stalin were the founders of "modern Russia"? I might agree with you if you meant that Russia is being run by "former" Communists who just changed their party affiliations and kept on leading. I strongly suggest you read the "Black Book of Communism"! Just as Russia was beginning to modernize she was taken over by a completely alien force...not just to Russia, but alien to the entire human race. No freedom of speech, no freedom of religion, no private property, no free market (except the black market). Communism is anti-Human. If the Communists were bees, they would be against beehives. If they were birds, they would be against flocks and free flight. If they were beavers, they would be against dams. If they were fish, they'd be against their natural propensity to organize into schools. In other words, Communists are opposed to the way humans NATURALLY organize. Not just at the international and national level, but also the way they worship, raise their families, spend their money, organize into communities, etc. That's why they call their program REVOLUTIONARY. They seek to overthrow every last vestige of human society. The result is a vast, impoverished, prison camp where even thoughts can be criminalized, let alone actions.


31 posted on 11/01/2004 6:34:54 PM PST by TapTheSource
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To: Askel5

Speaking of reading...read those books I suggested!!! BTW, did you read post #26? Wow.


32 posted on 11/01/2004 6:38:07 PM PST by TapTheSource
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To: Askel5

BTW, seeing how your a Catholic, have you read the book "The Undermining of the Catholic Church" by Mary Ball Martinez? If you haven't, I suggest you pick up a copy. It exposes the (Commie) forces that have undermined the Catholic Church better than any other single work I know of. So your reading list has just grown by one more book!!! Now get on it!


33 posted on 11/01/2004 6:48:49 PM PST by TapTheSource
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To: AndyJackson

"...the men who founded modern Russia".
The only sense in which one could speak of "modern" Russia is that today is November 2nd, 2004 there, just like it will be here in few hours time.
Civilizationally and culturally Russia has always been a backward communist society (from immemorial times, way before Marx), if by communism one understands a way of life - i.e. how people relate to one another and to their society, and not red banners, slogans and statues. As an aside - behaviorally our own clintons are communists.
Thus Putin (or rather Russian society of his time - he's merely a figurehead and a symbol) merely reverts to the historical and civilizational norm. "Modern" Russia does not and cannot have "founders", for "modern" Russia does not exist and has never existed.


34 posted on 11/01/2004 6:52:05 PM PST by GSlob
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To: ExSoldier

"I just read a similar article on RAPTURE READY which stated the following (approximately) and with which I fully concur."

Just checked out your site recommendation. Looks like an excellent resource. Thank you!


35 posted on 11/01/2004 6:53:35 PM PST by TapTheSource
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To: TapTheSource; Romulus
=== BTW, did you read post #26? Wow. I feel the same way after reading some of your posts, actually. Romulus ... about Mary Ball Martinez (Vatican Press Corps '73-'88 and Wanderer contributor). Can you comment on the article I've linked here? I find it unsettling.
36 posted on 11/01/2004 7:49:21 PM PST by Askel5 ( Cooperatio voluntaria ad suicidium est legi morali contraria. )
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To: TapTheSource

BUMP


37 posted on 11/01/2004 7:53:14 PM PST by GeronL (FREE KERRY'S SCARY bumper sticker .......... http://www.kerrysscary.com/bumper_sticker.php)
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To: TapTheSource; Romulus
Sorry ... I should stick to HTML all the time. This window's got me lazy.

BTW, did you read post #26? Wow.

I feel the same way after reading some of your posts, actually.

Romulus ... about Mary Ball Martinez (Vatican Press Corps '73-'88 and Wanderer contributor). Can you comment on the article I've linked here? I find it unsettling.

38 posted on 11/01/2004 8:01:59 PM PST by Askel5 ( Cooperatio voluntaria ad suicidium est legi morali contraria. )
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To: Askel5

"Wow. I feel the same way after reading some of your posts, actually."

That's a pretty strong statement. If you would just speak plainly and directly, perhaps we could get to the bottom of my so-called inconsistencies (more likely yours). Instead, you always seem to spot a killer rabbit in my arguments and run away. Undaunted, I keep challenging you, but you always demure or muddy the waters with your esoteric meanderings. Do you really intend to spend your entire time writing endless words but never making a point?

As for the Martinez article, there was far more going on in the Catholic Church at that time re: the Jews than her article would imply. I will have to pull a few books off the shelf to do the subject justice. But you didn't answer my question, did you read her book?


39 posted on 11/01/2004 8:10:55 PM PST by TapTheSource
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To: TapTheSource; struwwelpeter; jb6; MarMema
I see you are pumped up for your daily propaganda outbursts against Russia. Every day you post approximately ten rants against Russia. Those of us who have been following your on line antics are well aware your main goal is to defend the Islamofacists at the expense of the Russians. You have blamed Russia for what happened at the Nord-Ost Theater in Moscow, the massacre in Beslan, atrocities in Chechnya, etc., etc., etc. Not once do you ever find fault with the Islamofacists for their evil acts. If some doubt what I am saying they should do a search on your name and that should erase any doubts. Also do a search on FearGodNotMan and Snapple.
40 posted on 11/01/2004 8:30:30 PM PST by GarySpFc (Sneakypete, De Oppresso Liber)
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To: TapTheSource

Thanks.


41 posted on 11/01/2004 8:40:36 PM PST by 185JHP ( "The thing thou purposest shall come to pass: And over all thy ways the light shall shine.")
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To: GarySpFc

Gary, it's very simple...You are for Putin and the KGB, I am for the Russian people. You defend dictatorship, I support FREEDOM. Your boy Putin supports our enemies, I support the United States. Somehow you have managed to confuse totalitarianism with conservatism. I hate to break it to you, but the two do not go together.


42 posted on 11/01/2004 8:55:22 PM PST by TapTheSource
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To: 185JHP

No problem. Unfortunately, the "Putin right or wrong" crowd has arrived.


43 posted on 11/01/2004 8:56:27 PM PST by TapTheSource
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To: TapTheSource
No problem. Unfortunately, the "Putin right or wrong" crowd has arrived.

I favor giving Putin the benefit of the doubt.  And if you didn't want me here, why did you freep-mail me with this URL?
44 posted on 11/01/2004 9:32:49 PM PST by gcruse (http://gcruse.typepad.com/)
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To: gcruse

I didn't say I didn't want you here. I was refering to a post further up. I ran into a post of yours that made me think you would be interested in the Pacepa article. Giving Putin the benefit of the doubt is a far different stance than the people I was referring to (although I would disagree with your stance, but at least your rational about it).


45 posted on 11/01/2004 9:36:57 PM PST by TapTheSource
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To: Askel5

BTW, what exactly do you find unsettling about the Martinez article?


46 posted on 11/01/2004 9:47:00 PM PST by TapTheSource
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To: TapTheSource

Thank you for the ping.....albeit, doing it by freepmail has me perplexed. I am more used to the public ping, thus my consternation.


47 posted on 11/01/2004 10:58:50 PM PST by Chani
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To: GarySpFc; Agrarian; Mount Athos
This was already posted once. My reply then, as I recall, was "No Dostoevsky".

John Birchers are losers.

48 posted on 11/02/2004 12:22:39 AM PST by MarMema (Sharon is my hero)
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To: TapTheSource
This writer is a Romanian. and I am willing to bet knows very little about Russia - then or now.

You are boring us to death with your ten-year-old "run, the commies are coming" repeat posts.

49 posted on 11/02/2004 12:27:01 AM PST by MarMema (Sharon is my hero)
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To: GarySpFc
Pro-chechens are the minority here and don't seem to last long either. This is his, what? - 3rd or 4th reincarnation here on FR.

He does make for nice opportunities to run into you again, though! Hope things are going well for you and yours!

50 posted on 11/02/2004 12:29:44 AM PST by MarMema (Sharon is my hero)
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