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The Founding Fathers and Deism
WallBuilders ^ | David Barton

Posted on 11/08/2004 11:41:14 AM PST by Conservative Coulter Fan

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To: Al Gator
Al, you are wrong about Barton. Read his stuff and you will find out that he does not think much of Paine and neither did most of the founding fathers. While they agreed with some of his ideas, they also saw him as immoral and some even called him "that dirty little atheist".

I don't think Barton ever called Tom Paine a Christian, just the opposite.

51 posted on 11/09/2004 5:08:02 AM PST by joe_broadway (Truth scares Liberals.)
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To: hadit2here

Perhaps you are hopelessly ill informed. Several of the states did not disestablish until well into the 19th Century. These aren't fantasies friend, they are facts. I would suggest you widen your horizons to include readings by other than those with an axe to grind about religion because it is evident that you have been Goebbelized.


52 posted on 11/09/2004 6:22:14 AM PST by jwalsh07
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To: hadit2here
The Congregational Church was the established church in Connecticut before 1818. Throughout the eighteenth century all residents of each town were required to attend Sunday services and to pay taxes to support the local Congregational Church, unless a certificate was signed by an officer of a dissenting church (such as a Baptist, Episcopal, or Quaker) stating that a certain resident regularly attended and supported that church. In May 1791, a statute was passed requiring the certificates to be signed by two civil officers or a justice of the peace rather than by the officer of the dissenting church. Since the civil officers were Congregationalists, the effect of this new law was to harass the dissenters in their attempts to avoid supporting the established church. This caused a great uproar, and five months later the law was repealed and a new law was passed allowing the dissenter himself to sign the certificate but requiring him to file it with the established church. This caused a new uproar, for the dissenting churches had no way of determining who was supposed to support them except by complaining to the established churches. Nevertheless the certificate law was not changed and continued to outrage dissenters as they picked up supporters in the early nineteenth century.

Until 1814, the Episcopalians, wealthier and more influential than the other dissenters, were not particularly upset with the existing order. About 10% of the state was Episcopalian, and the Federalist majority was generally solicitous of their needs. For example, the laws were amended in the 1790s to accommodate Episcopal fasts and feasts, a problem since Episcopal fast days occasionally occurred on Congregational feast days, and vice versa.

From 1804 to 1812, the Episcopalians unsuccessfully attempted to convince the General Assembly to charter Cheshire Academy as an Episcopal college; these rebuffs did not convince the Episcopalians to desert the Federalist cause, but in 1814 the General Assembly completely alienated the Episcopalians by the manner in which a new bank was chartered. The new bank, The Phoenix Bank of Hartford, was charted and $60,000 paid to the state. Since Episcopalians were involved in the new bank, half of the payment to the state was supposed to be appropriated to the Episcopal church. What actually happened was that the General Assembly appropriated $20,000 to Yale College (a Congregational institution) and kept the rest in the state treasury. After 1814 most Episcopalians voted for the Republicans.

While the Episcopalian change of heart was hardly for an ennobling reason, the final push for disestablishment was highly principled. By the 1810s an established church in the United States was an anachronism. It never existed in Rhode Island and was abolished elsewhere by the 1780s. When the War of 1812 ended unexpectedly in late 1814, the U.S. Treasury was left with a large sum of money to return to the states. Connecticut eventually received $145,000, and the Federalist General Assembly in October 1816 decided to distribute it as follows: 1/3 to the Congregationalists, 1/7 to Yale (also Congregationalist), 1/7 to the Episcopalians, 1/8 to the Baptists, 1/12 to the Methodists, and the balance to the state treasury.

This Act provoked outrage from all the dissenters, who nobly accused the General Assembly of trying to bribe them to perpetuate enforced support of religion, and of ignoring the minor sects, such as the Quakers. They also complained, somewhat less nobly, that the percentage split favored the Congregationalists. As a result of this legislation the Republicans allied with the dissenters to form the Toleration Ticket for the Spring 1816 elections. Oliver Wolcott ran for Governor and Jonathan Ingersoll, a prominent Episcopalian, ran for Lieutenant Governor. Wolcott narrowly lost, but Ingersoll won, as the Republicans received virtually the entire vote of the dissenters. In the Spring 1817 election, this was sufficient for Wolcott to defeat the Federalist candidate for the first time in Connecticut history. The margin of victory was a mere 600 votes. The next Spring Governor Wolcott called for a constitutional convention, one of whose lasting achievements was the disestablishment of the Congregational Church. - LINK

The struggle for religious freedom and disestablishment in Massachusetts is equally interesting and of greater duration than the events in Connecticut. Beginning in 1631, the General Court decreed that unless one were a Congregationalist, he could not vote or be in politics. This decree was one of the major factors of Roger Williams' banishment to Rhode Island. In 1638, the General Court ordered a tax on all who did not voluntarily contribute to the Congregationalist minister's support. In 1672, the General Assembly ordered banishment for "broaching and maintaining damnable heresies," which essentially constituted anything contrary to the teachings of the established church. Although toleration was extended to all Protestant Christians in 1691, it did not extend to Roman Catholics.

From about the turn of the Eighteenth Century up until the time of the Revolutionary War, non-established religious sects succeeded in some of their efforts to chip away at the wall of church establishment. However, by 1776, according to General Court decree, anyone choosing to settle a town along the frontier had to build a Congregational church and support its minister. Thus, Baptists and nonconformist settlers often had to build two churches and support two ministers. This only contributed to the great strife between Congregationalists and nonconformists.

Although the Congregational Church was still highly favored, changes in attitude were apparent. In 1779, the town of Pittsfield sent a Congregational minister and a Baptist minister to the constitutional convention. In 1780, the Massachusetts Provincial Congress adopted the following constitution and Declaration of Rights. The Declaration of Rights was largely the work of John Adams. It is highly possible, from the contents of clause II, that Adams was influenced by the Virginia Declaration. Although this Declaration of Rights is a rather conservative document, it was a big step for Massachusetts, who had struggled for more than a century to obtain religious freedom. It was not until 1831 that the Massachusetts state legislature voted in favor of disestablishment. In 1833, the third article of the 1780 Declaration of Rights was finally replaced. The new article promoted religious freedom and prohibited any form of establishment. LINK


53 posted on 11/09/2004 5:31:46 PM PST by Tailgunner Joe (No King but King Jesus!)
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To: joe_broadway
Paine later published his Age of Reason, which infuriated many of the Founding Fathers. John Adams wrote, “The Christian religion is, above all the religions that ever prevailed or existed in ancient or modern times, the religion of wisdom, virtue, equity and humanity, let the Blackguard Paine say what he will.” Samuel Adams wrote Paine a stiff rebuke, telling him, “[W]hen I heard you had turned your mind to a defence of infidelity, I felt myself much astonished and more grieved that you had attempted a measure so injurious to the feelings and so repugnant to the true interest of so great a part of the citizens of the United States.”

Benjamin Rush, signer of the Declaration, wrote to his friend and signer of the Constitution John Dickinson that Paine's Age of Reason was “absurd and impious”; Charles Carroll, a signer of the Declaration, described Paine's work as “blasphemous writings against the Christian religion”; John Witherspoon said that Paine was “ignorant of human nature as well as an enemy to the Christian faith”; John Quincy Adams declared that “Mr. Paine has departed altogether from the principles of the Revolution"”; and Elias Boudinot, President of Congress, even published the Age of Revelation—a full-length rebuttal to Paine's work. Patrick Henry, too, wrote a refutation of Paine's work which he described as “the puny efforts of Paine.”

When William Paterson, signer of the Constitution and a Justice on the U. S. Supreme Court, learned that some Americans seemed to agree with Paine's work, he thundered, “Infatuated Americans, why renounce your country, your religion, and your God?” Zephaniah Swift, author of America's first law book, noted, “He has the impudence and effrontery to address to the citizens of the United States of America a paltry performance which is intended to shake their faith in the religion of their fathers.” John Jay, an author of the Federalist Papers and the original Chief-Justice of the U. S. Supreme Court, was comforted by the fact that Christianity would prevail despite Paine's attack,“I have long been of the opinion that the evidence of the truth of Christianity requires only to be carefully examined to produce conviction in candid minds.” In fact, Paine's views caused such vehement public opposition that he spent his last years in New York as “an outcast” in “social ostracism” and was buried in a farm field because no American cemetery would accept his remains.


54 posted on 11/09/2004 5:36:33 PM PST by Tailgunner Joe (No King but King Jesus!)
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To: JFK_Lib

Amen and ping!


55 posted on 11/09/2004 5:46:05 PM PST by mentor2k
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To: LegendHasIt
IMHO, this article, while interesting and may add some impetus to the argument of the USA being "A Christian Nation" , is based on a highly flawed premise.

I concur. I'll also note that the author of this article is a pseudo-historian snake oil salesman and a flaming bigot who uses his pseudo-histories and religion for political gain. Barton is not exactly the most credible or trustworthy source by any measure.

56 posted on 11/12/2004 10:24:06 PM PST by GOPcapitalist
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To: Al Gator
I think David Barton is guilty of selective reading.

Yes. He does that often. Barton is (unfortunately) the Vice Chairman of the Republican Party of Texas and most of his history is very selective and very biased toward whatever political point he is trying to argue at the moment

57 posted on 11/12/2004 10:28:47 PM PST by GOPcapitalist
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To: Conservative Coulter Fan

I learned this in grade school in the early 50's. I am constantly amazed at the left's denial that this is a christian nation and their endless use of the phrase, "Separation of Church and State" as though it is part of the Constitution.


58 posted on 11/12/2004 10:30:56 PM PST by PISANO (Never Forget 911!! & 911's 1st Heroes..... "Beamer, Glick, Bingham & Bennett.")
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To: Conservative Coulter Fan
Well, why don't you contact Dan Barton and voice your complaint.

He doesn't answer email - I know that from first hand experience. David Barton is also our Republican Party Vice Chairman in Texas (and a rather lousy one at that - he's in it for self promotion and to sell his videos, not getting our candidates elected). Whenever there's an internal party election going on he pulls out his self-purported "Founding Fathers" expertise and twists a bunch of out of context quotes together to portray his favored candidate as the "candidate of the founders vision" or some such nonsense. Anybody who opposes him similarly gets labelled "anti democratic" and opposed to the "Founding Fathers." I've sent out challenges to the content of his letters several times including to that address and they never respond to anything. He has no public address at the Republican Party website either.

59 posted on 11/12/2004 10:34:27 PM PST by GOPcapitalist
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To: x
It is interesting though that if you visit the Episcopal church in Colonial Williamsburg (would have been Church of England in colonial times) one finds a pew whose brass plaque identifies it as Thomas Jefferson's pew. It is clear that the orthodox Christian gospel would have been heard from this pulpit in the 18th century. Thus, the favorite politician of American liberals was apparently a hypocrite!
60 posted on 11/12/2004 10:46:51 PM PST by Binghamton_native
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To: Tailgunner Joe
Yes, Old Tom Paine completely missed the mark when it came to the rock-bottom realities underlying the population's motivations.

He was more like a French revolutionist which this country rejected.

61 posted on 11/14/2004 6:45:58 AM PST by joe_broadway (The faith of the convinced evolutionist is that of a fanatical zealot.)
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To: Conservative Coulter Fan
1) Deism is not synonymous with atheist or agnostic
2) Jefferson didn’t believe that Jesus was the son of God and thought that the virgin birth was a myth. The quote from Jefferson was excerpted so as to destroy his meaning. I posted the entire quote previously. He didn’t think Jesus was anything more than a man; that is not a Christian, although he claimed to be a believer in his ‘philosophy’.

3) Thomas Paine’s belief? OK. He said...”there remains nothing of Genesis but an anonymous book of stories, fables, and traditionary or invented absurdities, or of downright lies. [Thomas Paine, The Age of Reason]” Hardly one to quote on the deep religious conviction of the Founders.

4) Sure none of the founders fit the STRAWMAN definition of Deist put forward; however Franklin said in his own autobiography that he was a “thorough Deist”.

62 posted on 02/07/2008 9:00:23 PM PST by allmendream ("A Lyger is pretty much my favorite animal."NapoleonD)
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