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To: jwalsh07
Most of the founding fathers were unabashed Christians and you would not have been too happy with them...

I'm totally happy with them now. If I'd been there with them, I know I'd be totally happy with them then, too.

...since most of the original states indeed had state religions

Huh? Where do you come up with that piece of information?

I can trace my family lines back to the frontier preachers who traveled the eastern states and setup the first churches. They then migrated to the midwest and did the same. Then on to the west coast. In all my research and readings, I have yet to find any evidence of there being "state religions". Please, if you have such I'd be more than happy to have it. And don't give me that krap(tm) about Christianity being the "state religion".

Some of the colonies may have been started by a group from a similar religious teaching or belief, but a "state religion" would have been anathema to those who were founding this nation. They had literally left England and Europe because of the "state religions" and I doubt they were amenable to establishing more of the same. As I have written before, "Having escaped from the state-established religions of Europe, only 7% of the people in the 13 colonies belonged to a church when the Declaration of Independence was signed."

41 posted on 11/08/2004 6:20:41 PM PST by hadit2here ("The way to see by Faith is to shut the eye of Reason." --Benjamin Franklin)
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To: hadit2here
Sorry friend but you are ill informed.

Of the 13 original states 6, Connecticut, Georgia, Maryland, Massachusetts, New Hampshire, and South Carolina, had established religions.

But don't take my word for it, let your fingers do the walking.

42 posted on 11/08/2004 6:26:11 PM PST by jwalsh07
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To: hadit2here
And while I'm bursting bubbles, try this one on for size. Jefferson wrote and Madison ushered through a state law in Virginia making the Breaking of the Sabbath a criminal offense.

God's honest truth. :-}

44 posted on 11/08/2004 6:30:05 PM PST by jwalsh07
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To: hadit2here
I can trace my family lines back to the frontier preachers who traveled the eastern states and setup the first churches. They then migrated to the midwest and did the same. Then on to the west coast. In all my research and readings, I have yet to find any evidence of there being "state religions". Please, if you have such I'd be more than happy to have it. And don't give me that krap(tm) about Christianity being the "state religion". Some of the colonies may have been started by a group from a similar religious teaching or belief, but a "state religion" would have been anathema to those who were founding this nation.
I consider the government of the United States as interdicted by the Constitution from intermeddling with religious institutions, their doctrines, discipline, or exercises. This results not only from the provisions that no law shall be made respecting the establishment or free exercise of religion, but from that also which reserves to the States the powers not delegated to the United States. Certainly no power to prescribe any religious exercise, or to assume authority in religious discipline, has been delegated to the General Government. It must then rest with the States, as far as it can be in any human authority. - Thomas Jefferson, letter to Samuel Miller, January 23, 1808 (emphasis added)
The First Amendment only proscribes an establishment of a national religion. The Bill of Rights did not apply to the state governments before the passage of the fourteenth amendment.
The constitution was ordained and established by the people of the United States for themselves, for their own government, and not for the government of the individual states. Each state established a constitution for itself, and, in that constitution, provided such limitations and restrictions on the powers of its particular government as its judgment dictated...

These amendments demanded security against the apprehended encroachments of the general government--not against those of the local governments.

In compliance with a sentiment thus generally expressed, to quiet fears thus extensively entertained, amendments were proposed by the required majority in congress, and adopted by the states. These amendments contain no expression indicating an intention to apply them to the state governments. This court cannot so apply them. - Chief Justice Marshall, Barron v. Mayor & City Council of Baltimore, 32 U.S. 243 (1833) (emphasis added)

-----
Quite simply, the Establishment Clause is best understood as a federalism provision--it protects state establishments from federal interference but does not protect any individual right.

Moreover, incorporation of this putative individual right leads to a peculiar outcome: It would prohibit precisely what the Establishment Clause was intended to protect--state establishments of religion.

(noting that "the Fourteenth Amendment has somehow absorbed the Establishment Clause, although it is not without irony that a constitutional provision evidently designed to leave the States free to go their own way should now have become a restriction upon their autonomy") - Justice Thomas, Elk Grove v. Newdow, June 14, 2004 (emphasis added)

Perhaps you should spend more time listening and learning rather than slandering the Founders of this Christian nation and distorting history. Then you might not be so boastful about your ignorance. I don't mind educating you and setting the record straight though. To learn about the history of America's established state churches and their disestablishment, you might start here.

48 posted on 11/08/2004 7:50:07 PM PST by Tailgunner Joe (No King but King Jesus!)
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