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National Geographic Ignores The Flaws in Darwin's Theory
Discovery Institute News ^ | 11/8/04 | Jonathan Wells

Posted on 11/09/2004 11:21:22 AM PST by Michael_Michaelangelo

Was Darwin wrong?

In the November 2004 issue of National Geographic, David Quammen answers this question with a resounding "NO. The evidence for Evolution is overwhelming."

In Quammen's view, most people who reject Darwin's theory of evolution do so out of ignorance, so he proceeds to lay out some of the evidence for it. But the evidence he lays out is exaggerated, and the problems with it are ignored.

Quammen explains that Darwin's theory has two aspects: the "historical phenomenon" that all species of living things are descended from common ancestors, and "the main mechanism causing that phenomenon," which is natural selection. The evidence presented by Darwin, he continues, "mostly fell within four categories: biogeography, paleontology, embryology, and morphology."

The first category includes evidence from similar species in neighboring habitats, such as finches on the Galápagos Islands; the second includes evidence from the fossil record, such as extinct horse-like animals that preceded modern horses; and the third includes evidence from similarities in early embryos that supposedly point to their common ancestry.

All three categories are rife with problems that Quammen overlooks. For example, the Galápagos finch story is complicated by the fact that many of what were originally thought to be thirteen species are now interbreeding with each other -- even though Darwinian theory regards inability to interbreed as the distinguishing feature of separate species.

The fossil record of horses is also much more complicated than Quammen makes it out to be; actually, it looks like a tangled bush with separate branches rather than a straight line of ancestors and descendants. Even worse, Quammen ignores the Cambrian explosion, in which many of the major groups ("phyla") of animals appeared in a geologically short time with no fossil evidence of common ancestry -- a fact that Darwin himself considered a "serious" problem that "may be truly urged as a valid argument against" his theory.

Finally, embryos fail to show what Darwin thought they showed. According to Quammen, the evidence for evolution includes "revealing stages of development (echoing earlier stages of evolutionary history) that embryos pass through before birth or hatching." Darwin (as quoted by Quammen) thought "the embryo is the animal in its less modified state," a state that "reveals the structure of its progenitor." This idea -- that embryos pass through earlier stages of their evolutionary history and thereby show us their ancestors -- is a restatement of German Darwinist Ernst Haeckel's notorious "ontogeny recapitulates phylogeny," a false doctrine that knowledgeable experts discarded over a century ago.

It is actually Quammen's fourth category, morphology (i.e., anatomical shape), which Darwin himself (as quoted by Quammen) called the 'very soul' of natural history, that provides the basis for the other three. In each category, similarity in morphology ("homology") is interpreted as evidence for evolutionary relatedness. According to Darwin, features in different organisms are homologous because they were inherited from a common ancestor through a process he called "descent with modification."

The biologists who described homology a decade before Darwin, however, attributed it to construction or creation on a common archetype or design. How can one determine whether homology in living things comes from common ancestry or common design? Simply pointing to the similarities themselves won't do, as biologist Tim Berra inadvertently showed when he used different models of Corvette automobiles to illustrate descent with modification in his 1990 book, Evolution and the Myth of Creationism. Although Berra wrote that "descent with modification is overwhelmingly obvious" in Corvettes, we all know that automobile similarities are due to common design rather than common ancestry. Only by demonstrating that a Corvette can morph into another model by natural processes could someone rule out the need for a designer. Similarly, the only scientific way to demonstrate that similarities in living things are due to common ancestry would be to identify the natural mechanism that produced them. According to Darwin's theory, that mechanism is natural selection.

So the four categories of evidence on which Darwin relied to support his theory of the historical phenomenon of evolution rely, in turn, on his theory about the mechanism of evolution. But what is the evidence for Darwin's mechanism?

The principal evidence Quammen cites is antibiotic resistance. "There's no better or more immediate evidence supporting the Darwinian theory," Quammen writes, "than this process of forced transformation among our inimical germs." Perhaps so; but then Darwin's theory is in serious trouble. Antibiotic resistance involves only minor changes within existing species. In plants and animals, such changes had been known for centuries before Darwin. Nobody doubts that they can occur, or that they can be produced by selection. But Darwin claimed much more, namely, that the process of selection could produce new species -- indeed, all species after the first. That's why Darwin titled his magnum opus The Origin of Species, not How Existing Species Change Over Time.

Yet no one has ever observed the origin of a new species by selection, natural or otherwise. Bacteria should be the easiest organisms in which to observe this, because bacteria can produce thousands of generations in a matter of months, and they can be subjected to powerful mutation-causing agents and intense selection. Nevertheless, in over a century of research no new species of bacteria have emerged. Quammen cites Darwinian biologists who claim to have produced "incipient species," but this merely refers to different strains of the same species that the researchers believe -- on theoretical grounds -- might eventually become new species. When the truth of the theory itself is at stake, such a theoretical extrapolation hardly constitutes "overwhelming evidence" for it.

So the evidence Quammen presents for Darwin's theory falls far short of confirming it. Biogeography, paleontology, embryology and morphology all rely on homologies, and the only way to determine whether homologies are due to common descent rather than common design is to provide a natural mechanism. Yet Darwin's mechanism, natural selection, has never been observed to produce a single new species. Scientific theories (Quammen acknowledges) should not be accepted as a matter of faith, but only on the basis of evidence. And given the evidence, any rational person is justified in doubting the truth of Darwin's theory.

As Quammen points out at the beginning of his article, public opinion polls conducted over the past twenty years have consistently shown that only about 12% of Americans accept Darwin's theory that "humans evolved from other life-forms without any involvement of a god." The reference to "god" is significant, because it shows that science is not the only thing at stake here: Darwinism also makes religious and philosophical claims. Most importantly, Darwinism is committed to naturalism, the philosophy that nature is all that exists and God is imaginary -- or at least unnecessary. It is not surprising, then, that many people reject Darwinism on religious grounds. Nevertheless, Quammen maintains, most Americans are antievolutionists only because of "confusion and ignorance," because "they have never taken a biology course that deals with evolution nor read a book in which the theory was lucidly described."

As someone with a Berkeley Ph.D. in biology, I dispute Quammen's characterization of Darwin's doubters as confused and ignorant. On the contrary, Quammen's article makes it abundantly clear why it is quite reasonable to doubt Darwinism: The evidence for it is "underwhelming," at best.

The No Child Left Behind Act of 2001 requires every state to formulate standards for science education. As a guide to interpreting the law, Congress also passed a Conference Report recognizing "that a quality science education should prepare students to distinguish the data and testable theories of science from religious or philosophical claims that are made in the name of science. Where topics are taught that may generate controversy (such as biological evolution), the curriculum should help students to understand the full range of scientific views that exist, why such topics may generate controversy, and how scientific discoveries can profoundly affect society.''

In other words, students should be encouraged to distinguish the actual evidence for Darwin's theory from the naturalistic philosophy that accompanies it. Furthermore, students should be taught not only the evidence for the theory, but also why much of that evidence is controversial. Congress recommends this; the American people overwhelmingly support it; and good science demands it.

Quammen claims that evolution is "more crucial nowadays to human welfare, to medical science, and to our understanding of the world, than ever before." Yet no country in history has made more contributions to human welfare and medical science than America. Is it just a coincidence that the vast majority of citizens in the most scientifically successful nation on Earth are skeptical of Darwin's theory? I think not. As a scientist myself, it seems to me that a healthy skepticism is essential to good science. This caveat applies to all theories, including Darwin's.

If Quammen's article had accurately presented not only the evidence for Darwin's theory, but also the problems with that evidence, it might have made a valuable contribution to scientific literacy in America. As it stands, however, the article is nothing more than a beautifully illustrated propaganda piece. The readers of National Geographic deserve better.

Jonathan Wells, Ph.D. Senior Fellow, Center for Science and Culture Discovery Institute


TOPICS: Extended News; Miscellaneous; News/Current Events
KEYWORDS: creation; crevolist; darwin; evolution; god; intelligentdesign; mediahype; nationalgeographic
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To: orionblamblam
Ultimately, modern science is derived straight from the scientific methods put forward and *used* by the pagan Greek scientists such as Aristarchos of Samos, Democritus and others.

Then why did it die out in Greece?

51 posted on 11/09/2004 12:21:15 PM PST by Aquinasfan (Isaiah 22:22, Rev 3:7, Mat 16:19)
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To: orionblamblam
When you find car parts that put themselves together, maybe then your analogy won't be entirely silly.

Testimonies like yours regarding the superiority of our Creator over the creature speaks volumes.

I agree that man has not overcome the engineering feats that we observe being executed in the intelligent design of living organisms.

The directed self assemblage of organic molecules is testimony of the sophistication of the intelligence of the design. Scientists are amazed by the mechanisms that regulate the chemistry of living organisms.

52 posted on 11/09/2004 12:21:35 PM PST by bondserv (Alignment is critical! )
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To: MoonMullins

> still can't explain how life begins.

For about the BILLIONTH time... biogenesis is NOT about evolution. Evolution cannot explain atomic chain reactions or the photovoltaic effect either.


53 posted on 11/09/2004 12:22:31 PM PST by orionblamblam
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To: MoonMullins
For all of Darwin's important contributions, he and his followers still can't explain how life begins.

Indeed! You may be interested in this thread: Origin-of-Life Expert Jokes about Becoming a Creationist

54 posted on 11/09/2004 12:23:16 PM PST by Michael_Michaelangelo
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To: Aquinasfan

> Then why did it die out in Greece?


The Platonists won... and won political power. Those who claim mysteries are always going to have a psychological advantage over those who say "I don't know yet."


55 posted on 11/09/2004 12:23:52 PM PST by orionblamblam
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To: Michael_Michaelangelo
This scientist's skepticism isn't serving him very well or he'd have to mention that human embryo's have gills during their development. He might also note that Cambrian fossils, that are as much as 600 million years old, are very rare, since sediments from that long ago are seldom preserved intact. And, unless you've studied the evolution of the horses, which I have, you're likely to become confused by the relatively vast amount of fossil material to work with.
56 posted on 11/09/2004 12:24:40 PM PST by hyperpoly8 (Illegitimati Non Carborundum)
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To: orionblamblam

Biogenesis? Talking about a non-sequitor. You should read the post to which I replied before responding. The author makes a claim that is unsubstantiated. Feel free to give it a try yourself.


57 posted on 11/09/2004 12:26:20 PM PST by MoonMullins
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To: bondserv

> The directed self assemblage of organic molecules is testimony of the sophistication of the intelligence of the design.

Nothing of the sort. They are simply molecules that link up and form different molecules. It is no more miraculous than oxygen and hydrogen combining to form water.

> Scientists are amazed by the mechanisms that regulate the chemistry of living organisms.

Yes, many scientists are amazed at the natural, material processes of the world. There is much greater wonderment and beauty in the natural world than in the cheap gloss of supernaturalism that many wish to drape over it. The knowledge that things can be learned, understood and utilized is a greater joy than the belief that the fall of every electron is due to some omnipresent meddler.


58 posted on 11/09/2004 12:27:10 PM PST by orionblamblam
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To: MoonMullins

> Biogenesis? Talking about a non-sequitor.

Ahem: Who said: "he and his followers still can't explain how life begins."

Evolution explains how life changes, not how it began.

> You should read the post to which I replied before responding.

I did. He made no mention of biogenesis. You did.


59 posted on 11/09/2004 12:30:08 PM PST by orionblamblam
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To: wireman

In response to the question whether there is any fossil evidence for "reptile-bird evolution," evolutionists pronounce the name of one single creature. This is the fossil of a bird called Archaeopteryx, one of the most widely known so-called transitional forms among the very few that evolutionists still defend.

Archaeopteryx, the so-called ancestor of modern birds according to evolutionists, lived approximately 150 million years ago. The theory holds that some small dinosaurs, such as Velociraptors or Dromaeosaurs, evolved by acquiring wings and then starting to fly. Thus, Archaeopteryx is assumed to be a transitional form that branched off from its dinosaur ancestors and started to fly for the first time.

However, the latest studies of Archaeopteryx fossils indicate that this explanation lacks any scientific foundation. This is absolutely not a transitional form, but an extinct species of bird, having some insignificant differences from modern birds.

One of the important pieces of evidence that Archaeopteryx was a flying bird is its asymmetric feather structure. Above, one of the creature's fossil feathers.
The thesis that Archaeopteryx was a "half-bird" that could not fly perfectly was popular among evolutionist circles until not long ago. The absence of a sternum (breastbone) in this creature was held up as the most important evidence that this bird could not fly properly. (The sternum is a bone found under the thorax to which the muscles required for flight are attached. In our day, this breastbone is observed in all flying and non-flying birds, and even in bats, a flying mammal which belongs to a very different family.) However, the seventh Archaeopteryx fossil, which was found in 1992, disproved this argument. The reason was that in this recently discovered fossil, the breastbone that was long assumed by evolutionists to be missing was discovered to have existed after all. This fossil was described in the journal Nature as follows:

The recently discovered seventh specimen of the Archaeopteryx preserves a partial, rectangular sternum, long suspected but never previously documented. This attests to its strong flight muscles, but its capacity for long flights is questionable.

This discovery invalidated the mainstay of the claims that Archaeopteryx was a half-bird that could not fly properly.

Morevoer, the structure of the bird's feathers became one of the most important pieces of evidence confirming that Archaeopteryx was a flying bird in the true sense. The asymmetric feather structure of Archaeopteryx is indistinguishable from that of modern birds, and indicates that it could fly perfectly well. As the eminent paleontologist Carl O. Dunbar states, "Because of its feathers, [Archaeopteryx is] distinctly to be classed as a bird."125 Paleontologist Robert Carroll further explains the subject:

The geometry of the flight feathers of Archaeopteryx is identical with that of modern flying birds, whereas nonflying birds have symmetrical feathers. The way in which the feathers are arranged on the wing also falls within the range of modern birds… According to Van Tyne and Berger, the relative size and shape of the wing of Archaeopteryx are similar to that of birds that move through restricted openings in vegetation, such as gallinaceous birds, doves, woodcocks, woodpeckers, and most passerine birds… The flight feathers have been in stasis for at least 150 million years…126

Another fact that was revealed by the structure of Archaeopteryx's feathers was its warm-blooded metabolism. As was discussed above, reptiles and dinosaurs are cold-blooded animals whose body heat fluctuates with the temperature of their environment, rather than being homeostatically regulated. A very important function of the feathers on birds is the maintenance of a constant body temperature. The fact that Archaeopteryx had feathers shows that it was a real, warm-blooded bird that needed to retain its body heat, in contrast to dinosaur


60 posted on 11/09/2004 12:30:40 PM PST by Pacothecat
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To: orionblamblam
At some point, that which is clearly silly (ID) can be reasonably brushed aside in favor of that which is clearly reasonable.

But a corallary to your statement is (in effect) there is no such thing as a bad article in support of evolutionary theory.

An example for you (assuming you are sane, intelligent, and willing to allow reason to take its course).

Suppose I write an article opposing the flat earth theory. Let us assume my evidence in support of round earth is that a ship my leave port, disappear over the horizon, then subsequently return safely. Let us assume I conclude my article by saying the evidence is overwhelming against the flat earth theory.

If I were to do such a thing, the article would be a poor one, despite espousing a superior scientific position.

So. Are you able to admit that there is such a thing as a bad pro-evolution article?

61 posted on 11/09/2004 12:31:19 PM PST by Rippin
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To: Aquinasfan
Darwinism is a fideistic religion.

If that's true, then so is forensics.

62 posted on 11/09/2004 12:32:00 PM PST by jennyp (Creation/evolution news: http://crevo.bestmessageboard.com)
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To: orionblamblam

You need some medical help. Where did the term "biogenesis" first appear in this discussion? Post #53 - your post.

Secondly, the NG article, along with the post to which I replied, attempt to state that evolution theory provides an all-encompassing explanation on the ORIGIN and development of species. You should read the article and the entire discussion before you start blathering.


63 posted on 11/09/2004 12:37:20 PM PST by MoonMullins
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To: MoonMullins
Can the scientific community name one species whose origin is explained by evolution?

Humans. Plus about a million others.

64 posted on 11/09/2004 12:37:59 PM PST by jennyp (Creation/evolution news: http://crevo.bestmessageboard.com)
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To: jennyp

Wrong. It says we EVOLVED from hominids, etc. But it can't explain how life begins.


65 posted on 11/09/2004 12:40:12 PM PST by MoonMullins
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To: orionblamblam

This is verbatim from the original post I replied to:

"There is almost no serious debate within the scientific community about whether evolutionary change is responsible for the origin of new species."

Let me put this in words you'll understand: Ahem.


66 posted on 11/09/2004 12:41:59 PM PST by MoonMullins
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To: MoonMullins
You said this: "Can the scientific community name one species whose origin is explained by evolution? "

I gave you one: Homo sapiens.

67 posted on 11/09/2004 12:44:31 PM PST by jennyp (Creation/evolution news: http://crevo.bestmessageboard.com)
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To: Michael_Michaelangelo

I quit reading National Geographic years ago because I noticed that every article seemed to pay lip service to the hypothesis of evolution, even when it was unnecessary to the subject.


68 posted on 11/09/2004 12:47:38 PM PST by Busywhiskers (You can lead a man to knowledge, but you can't make him think.)
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To: Rippin

>> At some point, that which is clearly silly (ID) can be reasonably brushed aside in favor of that which is clearly reasonable.

>But a corallary to your statement is (in effect) there is no such thing as a bad article in support of evolutionary theory.

No. Remember, I said "That which is clearly reasonable." An article about evolutionary theory as understood by a Crteationist, for example (the usual bunk about one chance in a bajillion that an amoeba would turn into a human, that sort of thing), or Lamarckian evolution, would *not* be reasonable given the state of knowledge availabel today.

> Are you able to admit that there is such a thing as a bad pro-evolution article?

Certainly, as described above.


69 posted on 11/09/2004 12:48:35 PM PST by orionblamblam
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To: jennyp

Jenny! The operative word is ORIGIN. You're wrong on this score. There is not a single species whose ORIGIN can be explained by evolution.

Bottom line: How does life BEGIN? No one know for sure.

Evolution Theory is indeed very important, but it's not all encompassing as its advocates say. You might want to check out Darwin's Black Box by Professor Michael Behe. He gives Darwin credit where it's due, but he details serious limitations to evolutionary theory.


70 posted on 11/09/2004 12:49:40 PM PST by MoonMullins
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To: MoonMullins

> You need some medical help. Where did the term "biogenesis" first appear in this discussion?

You mentioned the origins of life. That *IS* "biogenesis." Try some schooling, son.

> evolution theory provides an all-encompassing explanation on the ORIGIN and development of species.

The origin of species is not the origion of life.


71 posted on 11/09/2004 12:50:39 PM PST by orionblamblam
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To: MoonMullins

origin of new species =/ origin of life


72 posted on 11/09/2004 12:51:29 PM PST by orionblamblam
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To: MoonMullins
Can the scientific community name one species whose origin is explained by evolution

Pick one. Any one.

73 posted on 11/09/2004 12:52:09 PM PST by Right Wing Professor
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To: Pacothecat

Personally, I was always fond of the silly explanation they gave for WHY this thing started flying ...

It was using its wings as a bug catching net.

I suppose thats why most engineers are creationists, because they have to actually design, build, and make something work.

The biologist is free to envision explanations and if enough other biologists think it is a reasonable explanation, it makes it into a science textbook as fact.


74 posted on 11/09/2004 12:53:08 PM PST by dartuser (Regarding Putin ... It only takes one moment of truth for an unbeliever to become an evangelist.)
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To: orionblamblam

You make my case for me - check out Post #13, to which I replied. That Freeper said evolutionary theory explains the origin of life, not me. What a dope.

My schooling taught me to get the facts before I responded. And yours?


75 posted on 11/09/2004 12:53:21 PM PST by MoonMullins
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To: MoonMullins
If one wants to be picky, it says hominids (and last time I checked humans were still considered to be hominids as opposed to hominoids) and hominoids share a common ancestor. And as far as evolution is concerned, there may also be more than one mechanism at work, you know. The gradualism postulated by Darwin is one. Punctuated equilibrium is another (and that one's far better at explaining gaps in the fossil record).
76 posted on 11/09/2004 12:53:57 PM PST by mewzilla
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To: Michael_Michaelangelo

I saw the article. They still use the discredited finch argument.


77 posted on 11/09/2004 12:53:59 PM PST by Dataman
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To: MoonMullins
whether evolutionary change is responsible for the origin of new species

PMFJI to your conversation with Orion, but the phrase "origin of new species" refers to how a species came into existence, not to the overall origin of life itself.

Each species out there split off from a parent species thru one or more evolutionary methods - basically either sympatric or allopatric speciation. There's always much argument over whether a specific species separated from the other mostly because of natural selection or gene drift. But for species for whom there's a lot of data, it's obvious that it was because of evolution.

78 posted on 11/09/2004 12:55:17 PM PST by jennyp (Creation/evolution news: http://crevo.bestmessageboard.com)
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To: dartuser
I suppose thats why most engineers are creationists,

Absolutely false.

79 posted on 11/09/2004 12:55:40 PM PST by WildTurkey
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To: orionblamblam

Memo to Darwin:

Species are not living things, per oroinblamblam.

Tell me you voted for Kerry.


80 posted on 11/09/2004 12:55:59 PM PST by MoonMullins
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To: Michael_Michaelangelo
National Geographic Ignores The Flaws in Darwin's Theory

National Geographic, like Scientific American, ceased being a science magazine a long time ago.
81 posted on 11/09/2004 12:57:03 PM PST by aruanan
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To: jennyp
I gave you one: Homo sapiens.

Apparently some Homo Sapiens have evolved a litter further than others.

82 posted on 11/09/2004 12:57:19 PM PST by WildTurkey
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To: Dataman

I was at the Dayton Planetarium and the speaker starting going on about the "lightening bolt in the soup of chemicals experiment" that proves life.

Its now known that there WAS oxygen in the "early" atmosphere ...

But it was great for my children, they spent the next 3 days disproving the infamous 1950s proof ...


83 posted on 11/09/2004 12:58:29 PM PST by dartuser (Regarding Putin ... It only takes one moment of truth for an unbeliever to become an evangelist.)
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To: jennyp

Agreed. But evolutionary theory goes further - it claims to explain how ALL life, species, etc., came to be.

So I ask again, how did LIFE begin?


84 posted on 11/09/2004 12:59:21 PM PST by MoonMullins
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To: MoonMullins
". . . You should read the post to which I replied before responding. The author makes a claim that is unsubstantiated. . . ."

I believe that I am the "author" to whom you refer and, if I backtracked correctly, this is the question you raise as indicating something unsubstantiated:

"Can the scientific community name one species whose origin is explained by evolution?"

The answer is an overwhelming "yes." You can refer to my earlier post on Archaeopteryx to see the evidence of evolutionary transition.
85 posted on 11/09/2004 1:00:03 PM PST by StJacques
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To: aruanan
Can you give me the name of a real science magazine?
86 posted on 11/09/2004 1:01:28 PM PST by BikerNYC
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To: Pacothecat
Paco I suggest you post your source for that discourse on Archaeopteryx. There are real problems with it, especially its "certainty" of language -- which is alien to scientific inquiry - and its use of the term "evolutionists" in its introduction, which is a pejorative.

To put it simply; that piece doesn't "fly." . . . . Lol!

Sorry Paco, I couldn't resist.
87 posted on 11/09/2004 1:05:04 PM PST by StJacques
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To: StJacques

I assume you are familiar with Professor Michael Behe's work, Darwin's Black Box. He has issued a challenge to anyone in the scientific community to prove the existence of a single species whose origin can be explained by evolutionary theory.

No one has done so yet. But if you can provide proof, I'll gladly change my view on this.


88 posted on 11/09/2004 1:05:15 PM PST by MoonMullins
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To: MoonMullins
No one has done so yet. But if you can provide proof, I'll gladly change my view on this.

No one has ever proved the existence of God.

89 posted on 11/09/2004 1:08:46 PM PST by WildTurkey
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To: Pacothecat

" Millions of fossils later not one transitional one (i.e. frog growing wings etc.) has ever been found and all the Neanderthals such as java man have been based on things like the tooth of a dog found fifty yards from the jaw bone of a monkey. Evolution will one day be laughed at as every major scientific discovery points to divine design, just as Albert Einstein found."

LOL - but you forgot the /sarcasm tag - some people might believe you were serious -


90 posted on 11/09/2004 1:09:19 PM PST by RS (Just because they are out to get him doesn't mean he's not guilty)
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To: orionblamblam
It is no more miraculous than oxygen and hydrogen combining to form water.

Plain chemistry is plain chemistry. The laws of the physical universe govern the reactions of chemical interaction. Life has an underlying body of information that is literally a chemistry lab that is way beyond anything man can yet conceive. A vast majority of mankind's advances in medical science is borrowed from living mechanisms dealing with the basic chemistry.

Do a study of the human liver. It is a veritable chemistry laboratory.

91 posted on 11/09/2004 1:11:59 PM PST by bondserv (Alignment is critical! )
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To: WildTurkey

That's right. But one theory (evolution) asserts that the other theory (intelligent design) has no place in the discussion.


92 posted on 11/09/2004 1:12:19 PM PST by MoonMullins
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To: MoonMullins
". . . check out Post #13, to which I replied. That Freeper said evolutionary theory explains the origin of life, not me. What a dope. . . ."

Well I'm the "dope" who put up post #13 and this is what it said in its entirety:

"There are two things that must be separated when dealing with Darwin's Theory of Evolution; evolutionary change as the origin of species and natural selection as the engine of evolutionary change. There is almost no serious debate within the scientific community about whether evolutionary change is responsible for the origin of new species. But there is a very serious debate about whether natural selection is the means by which that change is effected.

Though I must confess I read the above article at a much more rapid speed than I should have to give a proper commentary, it seems to me that by raising real problems with Darwin's Theory of Natural Selection as the means of evolutionary change it attempts to challenge the Theory of Evolution itself as the origin of species, though it does not say so outright. This is problematic, because any challenge to the Theory of Evolution must present an alternative, which I do not see proposed in the above article.
"

There is quite a bit about the "origin of species" but absolutely nothing about the "origin of life." So if you have problems reading the English language, please be careful who you call a "dope."
93 posted on 11/09/2004 1:12:35 PM PST by StJacques
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To: Michael_Michaelangelo
Ugh. Here we go. The great embarrassment to Republicans today: religious obsessives demanding their fairy stories get taught in science classes.
94 posted on 11/09/2004 1:14:46 PM PST by Timm
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To: dartuser

> most engineers are creationists

Hogwash. I've worked with engineers nonstop for the past ten years, from one side of the country to the other. Out of more than a hundred I've gotten to know, three, *maybe* five were creationists, while at least 80% were pretty clear evolutionists. You see, engineers don't have the experience of animals, plants, stars or anything else simply "poofing" into existence.

On the other hand, engineers have generally had the experience of natural forces working away on things.


95 posted on 11/09/2004 1:14:51 PM PST by orionblamblam
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To: MoonMullins

Are you being intentionally dense?


96 posted on 11/09/2004 1:15:52 PM PST by orionblamblam
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To: StJacques

My apologies for lack of clarity - you are not the one I was referring to.

But you proved my point to orion..., I was not the one who made the assertion. I suspect he has since traced it back to your post and discovered his error.


97 posted on 11/09/2004 1:16:39 PM PST by MoonMullins
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To: MoonMullins

> evolutionary theory goes further - it claims to explain how ALL life, species, etc., came to be.


No, it doesn't. Repeating a lie does not make it true.


98 posted on 11/09/2004 1:16:50 PM PST by orionblamblam
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To: MoonMullins
By the way, just to clear the air on the subject of the "Origin of Life."

Because God, however defined, must be considered the "first cause" of the creation of the universe, something on which I agree with both Newton and Einstein, God must be credited with the "Origin of Life." This in no way contradicts the Theory of Evolution.
99 posted on 11/09/2004 1:17:01 PM PST by StJacques
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To: Paradox
This is just one of those subjects about which good Freepers can choose to disagree.

As a Professional Geoscientist, I think your comment on this db is a comment that I, for one, agree with.

100 posted on 11/09/2004 1:17:18 PM PST by hawkaw
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