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Lock and Load
NY Times ^ | November 13, 2004 | NICHOLAS D. KRISTOF

Posted on 11/13/2004 2:34:57 PM PST by neverdem

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To: Larry Lucido

How about this, Dave? If you see a gun, it's LOADED!!

I seem to recall learning that a long time ago, maybe when I was about 6. Common sense continues to evade the left. Actually, this nonissue reveals that the writer has no personal experience at all with firearms, is just writing on autopilot.

101 posted on 11/13/2004 3:52:14 PM PST by hinckley buzzard
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To: lentulusgracchus

New York is funny when it comes to pistol permits because they are issued by County not by the State.

Any permit is good anywhere in the State except for NYC. Forget a carry permit in NYC, as a practical matter you can't even get permit to own one and leave it your home.

In the Counties surrounding NYC like Westchester you get a Target and Hunting Carry permit that is supposedly good for going to and from the range, but this restriction exists only on the permit and is not written anywhere in the State's Carry Law. They also make you wait 6 months or more and require you to be fingerprinted.

Upstate NY mostly just gives full carry permits with a simple form and little or no wait or hassle. The only restriction is that you must carry concealed.

102 posted on 11/13/2004 3:53:29 PM PST by Ragnorak
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To: DocH
I hadn't heard that one. The Rapist salted activist agents at CDC, to create a propaganda feedback loop? (Boiler-room con men call such people "singers" -- they sing the yak's praises and "vouch for" his scheme. In three-card monte, they're called "shills".)

I know Rapist and his hag used "diversity programs" to create Clintonista political rings inside the Civil Service. Rapist committed all the agency heads (who were appointees) to "promote diversity", and the way they did this was by naming certain people Of Color/Womynhood/Whatever [identity-political angle] as "change agents" and giving them an intra-agency forum, a budget, and a megaphone to tout "diversity" and feed into HR decisions within these agencies. In fact, what they were doing was creating Clintonista political clubs in violation of the Hatch Act and empowering them to seek the jobs of white males, who were targeted for replacement -- so "diversity" became a patronage gimmick, to attract people in the Civil Service to become political moles. Like Richard Clarke, for example, and Joe Wilson and his wife Valerie Plame, who were Clinton moles who suddenly broke the surface to attack Pres. Bush last year.

But the idea of salting sources of authority with "singer" shills is a new one -- and trust someone like Slick to think of something like that.

Bush has got to go on the warpath and clean all those people out of public life. Hogtie them, brand them, ship them off to the stockyards. Get rid of them.

103 posted on 11/13/2004 3:56:10 PM PST by lentulusgracchus ("Whatever." -- sinkspur)
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To: neverdem
Browning included a grip safety on the 1911 at the behest of the (cough) government. The Lugars produced for the trials also included this feature.

Browning thought so much of the grip safety that he never again included it on any design, for example, the Browning Hi-Power.

104 posted on 11/13/2004 3:56:33 PM PST by kitchen (Over gunned? Hell, that's better than the alternative!)
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To: neverdem; bang_list
To wake everybody up - I think you address a ping as shown below. I'm usually right but I'm not certain in this case. The one time I was wrong was when I thought I was wrong but it turned out I was right. ;-)

Note the asterisk and the underscore. ;-)

105 posted on 11/13/2004 3:59:41 PM PST by Tunehead54 (Repeal the 22nd Amendment!)
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To: kitchen

Thanks for the history.

106 posted on 11/13/2004 4:03:51 PM PST by neverdem (Xin loi min oi)
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To: Dan from Michigan
Guns are always loaded, dummy.

Duh. People who forget this will someday find themselves nominated for a Darwin Award.

I don't consider my guns to be "safe" until they are a pile of unconnected pieces lying on the table, waiting to be cleaned. That is the only time I'd be willing to say "this is an unloaded weapon".

107 posted on 11/13/2004 4:03:55 PM PST by zeugma (Come to the Dark Side...... We have cookies!)
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To: longtermmemmory
General commentary:

The NRA can rightly claim a piece of the Bush victory, and Kerry slogged right into their sights in camos with a shotgun which bans he proposed would have banned.

The ridiculous lengths to which the op-ed idiot goes to attempt to regurgitate 'Tactic 23X' of the anti-gun movement as a new idea owes more to his need to spew words to get paid, I think, then his belief in his topic. While, no doubt, the idea that Dems should simply change tactics rather than actual beliefs has worked in the past, this transparent and ill-informed piece demonstrates that, like most Democratic articles of faith, guns are extant, physical evidence of the ignorance and stupidity of their opponents even now (beat that sentence for nuance, Kerry).

Kellerman is a perfect example of the fallacy of allowing ANY government agency to regulate firearms.

The key concept that they will never get is that what 'we' really want is for the government to LEAVE US ALONE for the most part. Build roads, have a potent military, provide for public education insofar as using taxes to build the buildings and pay the teachers (NOT the bureaucrats). Read the Constitution - no, the 'regulate interstate commerce' clause does not allow you to order busing - and, no, the 'privacy' clause does not have anything to do with national laws on abortion.
108 posted on 11/13/2004 4:04:13 PM PST by Benkei (Remembrance)
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To: neverdem
"You can tell whether a camera is loaded by looking at it, and you should be able to tell whether a gun is loaded by looking at it," said David Hemenway, director of the Harvard Injury Control Research Center. Professor Hemenway has written "Private Guns, Public Health," a brilliant and clear-eyed primer for the country.

We take safety steps that reduce the risks of everything from chain saws (so they don't kick back and cut off an arm) to refrigerators (so kids can't lock themselves inside). But firearms have been exempt. Companies make cellphones that survive if dropped"

...but none of these items are protected by an Amendment in the Bill of Rights.


109 posted on 11/13/2004 4:04:55 PM PST by boris (The deadliest weapon of mass destruction in history is a Leftist with a word processor)
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To: coloradan
"Don't be fooled by his rhetoric. This is more of the same old, same old. Loaded chamber indicators, magazine diconnects, "smart" guns etc,. Those are gun control too, and they have been part of the 'rat platform of incrementalist gun control for years. Just because the FBI told the Branch Davidians "This is not an attack" doesn't mean it wasn't one. Just because some NYT moron claims "this is an entirely new approach, one that isn't gun control at all, and one that the red staters can or will accept" doesn't make it true either."

That's my whole point.

Once again, I'm NOT agreeing with him or buying his argument.

I'm saying, again, his answers are all wrong, and I don't agree with his point of view.

BUT he is one of the few Dems who is actually thinking "We have to change or we're doomed." I don't think any of his changes are ones that would make me agree with him, but my point is that he is at least not blaming the Dems plight on "not getting the message out" but on the message itself.

110 posted on 11/13/2004 4:09:40 PM PST by Darkwolf377 (If it is not fearful, it is not worthwhile. - Paul Tornier)
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To: Tunehead54; Admin Moderator

I'm pretty sure that the need for group posts with special names such as *bang_list went away with the last major overhaul. The topics are now arranged according to keywords such as banglist.

Admin mod, correct me if I'm wrong.

111 posted on 11/13/2004 4:10:00 PM PST by neverdem (Xin loi min oi)
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To: neverdem
Nothing kills Democratic candidates' prospects more than guns. If it weren't for guns,
President-elect Kerry might now be conferring with incoming Senate Majority
Leader Daschle.

Louder, Mr. Kristof!

That way you morons won't figure out that it was The Massachussetts Supreme
Court and the Mayor of San Francisco that cooked your goose.

Even Democratic pollster Pat Caddell warned y'all in the spring that this
was the simmering issue that could cost Kerry the election and y'all
didn't listen then.

I pray to G-d that y'all stay deaf, indefinitely.
112 posted on 11/13/2004 4:16:24 PM PST by VOA
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To: DocH
(remember the other famous LIER from Emory who wote a FRAUDULENT "history" book on the 2nd Amendment and guns in America?)

That would be one Professor Michael Bellesiles.

Here's a sample debunking of his "research":

Disarming History, by Joyce Lee Malcolm


a press release from Emory University regarding his resignation.

113 posted on 11/13/2004 4:18:53 PM PST by DuncanWaring (...and Freedom tastes of Reality)
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To: Restorer
Guns could and should be made safer.

As should bicycles, staircases, edible sized toys, and the other greater child killers.

114 posted on 11/13/2004 4:36:25 PM PST by squirt-gun
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To: Anti-Christ is Hillary

LOL ! oh yeah ,I forgot that one .Good advice.

115 posted on 11/13/2004 4:45:33 PM PST by JessieHelmsJr
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To: Restorer
"So what's wrong with these ideas?

Guns could and should be made safer.

Although attempts to ban older "unsafe" guns should be resisted, I see no reason why we should knee-jerk reject the very idea of making guns safer."

We should also help the obese by making forks and spoons smaller. Firearms do exactly as they are intended to do. There is no such thing as a "safe" firearm, when it is the intention of the user that generally is the problem. When intent is evil, nothing you can do to a firearm will change that intent.
116 posted on 11/13/2004 5:11:29 PM PST by hophead
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To: mental

" how about one for hiv infections while they're at it.."

I think HIV/AIDS kills more people in this country than guns do. I would think that most AIDS deaths are probably preventable too.

117 posted on 11/13/2004 5:15:29 PM PST by hophead
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To: neverdem; Smokin' Joe

Thanks for the logo Safrguns!

118 posted on 11/13/2004 5:17:32 PM PST by LiberalBassTurds (Islam is a religion of peace. Strange every murdering psychopath in the world is attracted to it.)
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To: Imabeliever
S&W Model 40

A.K.A. "Lemon Squeezer"

Just a Chief's Special with a shroud completely covering the hammer.
119 posted on 11/13/2004 5:22:58 PM PST by Sindarian (Sooner, rather that later. The Peace of the grave for all who attack America.)
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To: hophead
Actually, according to government statistics, doctors are more deadly than guns:

(A) The number of physicians in the U.S. is 700,000.
(B) Accidental deaths caused by Physicians per year are 120,000.
(C) Accidental deaths per physician is 0.171.
Statistics courtesy of U.S. Dept of Health Human Services.

Now Guns:
(A) The number of gun owners in the U.S. is 80,000,000. Yes, that is 80 million.
(B) The number of accidental gun deaths per year, all age groups, is 1,500.
(C) The number of accidental deaths per gun owner is .000188.
Statistics courtesy of F.B.I.
Statistically, doctors are approximately 9,000 times more dangerous than gun owners.

Remember, "Guns don't kill people, doctors do."

(My philosophy, in essence, is the concept of man as a heroic being, with his own happiness as the moral purpose of his life, with productive achievement as his noblest activity, and reason as his only absolute."-- Ayn Rand)

120 posted on 11/13/2004 5:34:07 PM PST by Oorang (I want to breathe the fresh air of freedom, at the dawn of every day, it's the American way.)
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To: lentulusgracchus
And if more would read some of Elmer Keith's work, that "safe" distance would have to be at least 300yds.

We have an annual Elmer Keith shoot; the targets are at 150 yds, and no scopes allowed - iron sights only. Most are pretty amazed at what you can do with a .22.

John Linebaugh's Six-Gun Seminar this last June saw some great results with .38 Special "plinker" loads at 500 yards, and .357 Mag at 600 yds. Folks shooting the full-house .475 and .500 loads were duly impressed!

121 posted on 11/13/2004 5:35:28 PM PST by castlebrew
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To: hophead
as with baseball bats, screwdrivers, hammers, BMWs...they're all tools made for a purpose. It's the user that determines whether they are rightly or wrongly employed. But that would imply a level of personal responsibility.

Guns are as safe as they can be made. As with other inanimate objects, they do not rise up of their own volition and strike either out of instinct or with malice aforethought.

122 posted on 11/13/2004 5:45:06 PM PST by castlebrew
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To: Oorang

Do you have a link that explains the source of U.S. Dept of Health Human Services statistics. Unless they have new and better studies to base that number, they are using exaggerated numbers and blaming it all on docs. I started the thread. I'm a doc who believes in the Second Amendment.

123 posted on 11/13/2004 6:00:16 PM PST by neverdem (Xin loi min oi)
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To: Restorer
Guns could and should be made safer.

As others have said, guns are quite safe. Unsafe guns tend not to do very well in the marketplace. The issues this clown brings up are all instances of unsafe handling practices, not unsafe guns. Strange that he doesn't propose teaching children to handle guns safely. Oh wait, the NRA already does that, and he certainly can't acknowledge THAT.

124 posted on 11/13/2004 6:10:02 PM PST by Trailerpark Badass
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To: Zacs Mom

Nice graphic, otherwise!

125 posted on 11/13/2004 6:13:54 PM PST by coloradan (Hence, etc.)
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To: Hardastarboard

I have a Colt .25 "vestpocket" model that uses the grip safety. It was made in 1918. Not 19th century.

126 posted on 11/13/2004 6:29:15 PM PST by Fireone (Homeland security is 10,000 rounds of ammo and 10 cords of dry firewood.)
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To: The SISU kid
Also if drivers licenses & marriage licenses cross over state lines why can't my concealed carry permit???

      Sounds like a "full faith and credit" issue to me.
127 posted on 11/13/2004 7:25:12 PM PST by Celtman (It's never right to do wrong to do right.)
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To: tahiti

Your point would make sense if it were applied equally to cars, bicycles, ladders, airplanes and every other item of manufacture which has been lawyered to death. Since this theory has not been applied in this way, it is difficult to develop a rationale as a result of which firearms are exempt from the standards applied to all other products.

128 posted on 11/13/2004 7:38:08 PM PST by Restorer (Europe is heavily armed, but only with envy.)
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To: neverdem
One poll showed that 88 percent of the public favors requiring that guns be childproof

Mandatory sentencing for the idiots that allow children access to guns should take care of the problem.

129 posted on 11/13/2004 8:02:37 PM PST by GVnana (If I had a Buckhead moment would I know it?)
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To: boris

Attention sports fans:

The sensor/indicator of a loaded gun is a RED HERRING for law suits and lawyer seeking a new cash cow.

No matter how good it may be some fool will claim the "indicator showed unloaded" or "too hard to read".

Proper gun safety lesson number one is ALWAYS ALWAYS ALWAYS treat, assume and handle ALL guns as if loaded. Somebody hands you a gun they just checked to be empty YOU check it again. No indicator will work for a round in the chamber of an automatic without compromising safety from the explosion.

130 posted on 11/13/2004 8:23:36 PM PST by longtermmemmory (VOTE!)
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To: DuncanWaring

Thanks for the links Duncan. Good-to-go.

131 posted on 11/13/2004 9:01:08 PM PST by DocH (Release ALL your Navy records AND your private journal Kerry!)
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To: neverdem

the number-one most effective gun safety measure:
a properly trained firearms operator.

the stats re: accidental discharge indicate that an NRA trained gunner is nowhere near as likely to cause such an accident as is a gunner with no NRA training. I forget the ration, but it was pretty impressive.

132 posted on 11/13/2004 9:06:49 PM PST by King Prout (tagline under reconstruction)
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To: Ragnorak
just trying to think like a lib

Hmmmm I think I'll try that to what could possmmffp pppfmmmtp mmhhhpp

133 posted on 11/13/2004 10:40:01 PM PST by freepatriot32 (
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To: neverdem
but some handguns can fire if they hit the ground.

This is garbage.

This was dealt with years ago.

There are some older ones that this may apply to but modern handguns will not fire unless the trigger is pulled, unless defective.

The government passed regulations requiring all handguns to pass a drop test around 1970.

134 posted on 11/13/2004 10:56:58 PM PST by mississippi red-neck
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To: neverdem; PJ-Comix
Alex Penelas, the once and future governor/Senator of Florida, tried the "public health" approach to gun control when I was living in Miami-Dade county back in 1999-2000. Thankfully, he got spanked by the state legislature for trying to counteract state law, and his "public health" argument, similar to what Kristof advocates in this article, failed with the "public."

The good news in that case is that Alex Penelas, who was considered THE rising star in the Florida Democratic Party, has since seen his star fizzle and will probably next be seen doing a McGreevey due to his personal predelictions. Nevertheless, his career was cut short at least partially by his advocacy of gun control for the "public health" a few years back.

135 posted on 11/13/2004 11:07:42 PM PST by Clemenza (Gabba Gabba Hey!)
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To: neverdem
The NYT just doesn't get it.


136 posted on 11/13/2004 11:26:19 PM PST by Travis McGee (----- -----)
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To: GSlob

IIRC, it's BS. His 1903 autopistol (1911 pre-cursor) lacked a grip safety.

137 posted on 11/14/2004 2:14:23 AM PST by SirLurkedalot (Thank You Veterans!!!)
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To: neverdem
Here's a comment and a question for freepers: The Democratic Party will "re-make" itself in the wake of their most recent debacle. They now realize that the question concerning their record on firearms has haunted them for over 10 years. Actually much longer if you go back to the 1968 GCA.

IF they concede that handguns are a part of the fabric of American society, and they embrace this......what will be the reaction of the US public to an initiative by their leaders in Congress to push and pass legislation that would allow for total federal reciprocity for holders of concealed firearms permits under the 14th Amendment's Full Faith and Credit clause as well as the 14th Amendment's Equal Protection clause AND of course the Second Amendment? Meaning of course, that if your drivers license is good in another and all other states, so too, is your concealed weapons permit.

If they REALLY REALLY push this and successfully pass it with a majority, maybe even a super majority in House and Senate, then I'd say they have a good chance at regaining the White House next term, if their candidate also embraces the legislation. Maybe even with a comfortable majority of the votes. Even more so if they remain quiet and neutral on the issue of "assault weapons."

138 posted on 11/14/2004 6:24:26 AM PST by ExSoldier (Democracy is 2 wolves and a lamb voting on dinner. Liberty is a well armed lamb contesting the vote.)
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To: neverdem
The model is automobiles, for a high rate of traffic deaths was once thought to be inevitable. But then we figured out ways to mitigate the harm with seat belts, air bags and collapsible steering columns, and since the 1950's the death rate per mile driven has dropped 80 percent.

The difference is that traffic deaths are caused by accidents, preventable perhaps, but not deliberate acts. Most "gun deaths" are a result of someone's deliberate act. No amount of *legitimate* safety features are going to prevent those acts. Thus all the cries for "gun safety" laws, are just smokescreens for more gun control.

Nice try, but no Kewpie doll.

139 posted on 11/14/2004 10:01:09 AM PST by El Gato (Federal Judges can twist the Constitution into anything.. Or so they think.)
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To: paul51
I like the idea of gun safety classes in every school a lot more.

Not "gun safety" classes, those would become a forum for "Gun are evil" brainwashing. Shooting classes, where gun safety would be an integral part of the curriculum. Every freeman should know how to handle a gun. Just think how the presence of the "lab equipment" would tend to discourage anyone intending harm to the students in the school.

140 posted on 11/14/2004 10:06:15 AM PST by El Gato (Federal Judges can twist the Constitution into anything.. Or so they think.)
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To: neverdem
Good Lord......the libs can be sure gun ownwership will be an issue - to their detriment. We must never miss an opportunity to bring this topic to the fore. Now, my challenge is my adopted state of Illinois.....


141 posted on 11/14/2004 10:07:20 AM PST by Lando Lincoln (GWB - history will be very kind to you.)
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To: neverdem
In contrast, 15 children under the age of 5 die annually in fatal gun accidents in the U.S., along with 18 children 5 to 9 years old. We routinely make aspirin bottles childproof, but not guns

So gun accidents kill 33 children per year. Hmm. What about bottlecaps?

"Sadly, statistics indicate that there are 3,500 additional poisonings of children under age 5 each year".

What about other accidents involving children?

The U.S. Department of Housing and Urban Development reports that each year in the United States:

• Residential fires injure about 12,000 children 14 years old or younger. Preschool children die in fires at twice the national rate.

• About 50 children die in crib-related incidents and about a dozen die from choking on toys, balloons and other children's products.

• About 83,000 children 14 years old or younger were treated for burns in hospital emergency rooms (1997 data).

• Poison control centers have responded to about one million calls involving children under five years of age since 1990.

• More than 350 children under five years of age drown in swimming pools; most of these are in home pools. Almost 3,000 young children are seen in hospital emergency rooms because of near-drowning incidents in pools.

• More than 3,000 children age 14 or younger are treated for carbon monoxide poisoning in hospital emergency rooms.

• More than 3,000 children under 10 years of age are treated in hospital emergency rooms for injuries related to inserting objects into electrical outlets.

• About 4,700 children 14 years old and younger are treated in emergency rooms for injuries caused by falls from windows.

• Thousands of children under six years of age are identified with elevated blood lead levels, which may cause damage to a child's developing brain. Nearly 900,000 children are estimated to have elevated blood lead levels.

142 posted on 11/14/2004 10:24:57 AM PST by VeniVidiVici (Got Wood?)
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To: El Gato; All
This clown conveniently ignores that about half or more of deaths caused by firearms in the U.S. are suicides. Japan, with laws that basically outlaw gun possession, has one of the world's highest rates of suicide. Some references that show the futility of gun control with respect to suicide follow.

Homicide and suicide rates associated with implementation of the Brady Handgun Violence Prevention Act.

First Reports Evaluating the Effectiveness of Strategies for Preventing Violence: Firearms Laws

Methods of suicide among persons aged 10-19 years--United States, 1992-2001.

143 posted on 11/14/2004 10:51:28 AM PST by neverdem (Xin loi min oi)
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To: ~Kim4VRWC's~
Someone, somewhere...thought that our houses and families would be made safer by putting locks on the doors and windows.

The only situation I know where such locks are mandatory is in rental housing. Even then, at least in Texas, only that there be a blind deadbolt lock on each exterior door. No law whatsoever that they must be used. That's in contrast to various "lock up your safety" laws.

Still there is a fundamental difference. Locks on your house are not to keep you in, they are to keep others out. You wouldn't have the locks set up so that it took a key to get *out*. Not so with gun locks which are designed to keep everybody out.

144 posted on 11/14/2004 11:13:32 AM PST by El Gato (Federal Judges can twist the Constitution into anything.. Or so they think.)
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To: lentulusgracchus
Bush may have been born in, and even educated in, Texas b

Actually he was born in Conn. But he was raised in Texas, around oilmen, and thinks more or less like a Texan. He was educated in Texas through high school, but then went to college up east.

145 posted on 11/14/2004 11:20:47 AM PST by El Gato (Federal Judges can twist the Constitution into anything.. Or so they think.)
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To: ol painless
You could certainly make one. Miniguns are perfect for vehicles since they require a strong power source to run the motor. A pickup bed would be perfect to fit a 4000 round magazine to feed this monster.

But you'd have to install stiff springs, and maybe some stabilization jacks to avoid flipping the truck over from the recoil, especially the smaller pickups.

146 posted on 11/14/2004 11:25:18 AM PST by El Gato (Federal Judges can twist the Constitution into anything.. Or so they think.)
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To: Kornev
And retool the 34 NFA a lot too. I'd raise the taxes to $1000 but make it easier otherwise to get things. Perhaps make it a licensed thing like with CCW

Effectively, it's just like CCW, although they had the honesty to call it a tax back then. (Well only because the tax power was the only way the courts would let them do what the Constitution clearly said they could not do. Times have changed) It comes down to begging the government for a license to exercise your Constitutional right.

However things can be set right by increments. To start, eliminate the tax, or at least reduce it to a fee to cover the costs of issuance. Remove the CLEO sign-off requirement, and make it "shall issue" and base it on the same instant background check as for other arms.

147 posted on 11/14/2004 11:31:46 AM PST by El Gato (Federal Judges can twist the Constitution into anything.. Or so they think.)
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To: Fireone
How do you like that antique Colt?

'Course, .25 is pretty much the mildest autopistol caliber out there in terms of bang for a buck.

Different days, though, eh?

148 posted on 11/14/2004 11:40:08 AM PST by lentulusgracchus ("Whatever." -- sinkspur)
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To: El Gato
However things can be set right by increments.

Start by repealing the 1987 gun-control act in toto. That's a real worm in the apple. Wonder what triggered that ban on production of full-auto weapons for civilian use?

But it needs to be found unconstitutional. A Class III FFL challenged the law in court, but SCOTUS wouldn't give him a hearing -- simply refused cert. They wouldn't do that to an Attorney General of the United States.

Time to get busy. Paging Dr. Emerson, Dr. Timothy Emerson, please!

149 posted on 11/14/2004 11:44:35 AM PST by lentulusgracchus ("Whatever." -- sinkspur)
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To: El Gato
Can't argue with your points...although I have purchased a deadbolt that requires a key to "get out"...they are nice for a few reasons. However, I was being a bit sarcastic when I wrote that post. I was trying to point out that door and window locks do not prevent break-ins. Although they can prevent most elementary kids from getting in and wreaking havoc. (The more elaborate the security...obviously the better the defense) The author just annoyed me. ;-)
150 posted on 11/14/2004 11:54:12 AM PST by Freedom2specul8 (Please pray for our troops....
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