Skip to comments.Letter left on Theo Van Gogh's body - A call to destroy America and all "unbelievers"
Posted on 11/16/2004 4:52:07 AM PST by Gritty
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I suggest you post a picture of yourself so we can all remember what you looked like before the Islamofascists cheerfully removed your almost empty head !!! ;-))
I'm not suggesting radical egalitarianism, OR gentle persuasion. That you got that idea most certainly rises from my flame-war with the previous denizens of this thread. I think Turkey may be a better example than the Soviet Union, since Russia certainly has her problems now. I fully support a muscular use of American force in the ME, and of our intelligence capabilities in rooting out the extremists at home and abroad. But I would much rather see Iraq end up as a Turkey than a Chechnya.
For some reason, I'm not to worried about that happening. Strange.
That sounds nice in principle, but could you support it in practice? One thing history tells us about islam is, by in large, it will break, but it won't bend.
That you've uncritically bought into the canard that Israel has any bearing on moslem behaviour whatsoever, thoughout history and throughout the world, still makes me wonder if you understand beating them on the battlefield is not enough.
Well, I support what we have done so far, though I am very worried about the final outcome. I don't claim to have all the answers, but I do feel that we have to find some common ground with at least a major segment of the muslim population, a proposition that I hope is possible.
And yes, I still maintain the belief that Muslim interaction with the US is at least partially shaped by the Isreali situation. I'm not claiming that solving it would solve the problem completely, or even that it can be solved, but I am fairly certain that a large portion of Muslims are incensed by what they percieve as injustice in Palestine, and at least some of those transfer their anger into radicalism. Of course, if I knew the answer to fixing the ME, I would be expecting a call from Stockholme any day now.
Thought you might like to read this
If Abdul will pray, to a glowing crater.
What exactly does Israel have to do with insane murder cultists (radical Muslims) chopping of infidel heads in the Philippines, Nigeria, Chechnya, Kosovo, Algeria, Sudan, etc etc etc?
Theres so much I could say here.... where do I start?
Re: Islams official spokesmen, GeekDejure quotes:
"Islam is NOT in America to be equal to any other faiths, but to become DOMINANT! The Koran, the Muslim book of scripture, should be the highest authority in America, and Islam the ONLY accepted religion on Earth." [CAIR co-founder Omar Ahmad].
Nevermind CAIR, GeekDejure, here's what I have posted previously about Islams ultimate offical spokesmen...
I have saved these friday sermons from Islams highest authorities. We're not talking mavericks here, these are some of the sermons from Islams holiest mosques, and their state approved Imams who are the official mouthpieces of Islam as well as their highest authorities, so these Imams trump the others:
(Credits for articles below go to LGF, MEMRI, and IMRA)
Every Friday, the Imams at mosques across the Muslim world spew their hatred for Jews (who according to the Quran are "brothers of apes and pigs") and the west, many of them praising the virtues of "jihad" against the "enemies of Islam" and asking Allah to help destroy this that and every other.
It's worth bearing in mind that these sermons are from Islams holiest places, akin to the Vatican in the Christian world, and we're only focusing on these mosques because they are the government run and approved ones. The more radical mosques that are out of government control preach more vile forms of hatred and violence.
You can see videos of sermons from some of the mon-government run (unless you count Saudi prince financing) mosques like the Finsbury Park Mosque in London at this website: http://johnathangaltfilms.com/movies2.html and more here: http://johnathangaltfilms.com/movie.html
Friday, February 7, 2003.
From the holy mosque in Mecca, Saudi Arabia:
Shaykh Sa'ud Bin-Ibrahim al-Shuraym delivers the sermon. He praises God, the messenger, and his companions, advising people to worship and obey God and stressing the importance of pilgrimage as a religious duty. He urges pilgrims not to bother one another or mill about during pilgrimage ceremonies. He also calls on Muslims to stick to their faith in Islam "as a fatal weapon in the face of the enemies of the nation and the stealers of land," saying that a faithful fighter "can win either the battle or martyrdom for the sake of God." The imam devotes his sermon to pilgrimage affairs and Islamic values.
Concluding, the imam prays to God: "O God, strengthen Islam and Muslims, humiliate infidelity and infidels, destroy the enemies of Islam, and protect this country, as well as the countries of Muslims."
From the other holy mosque in Medina, Saudi Arabia:
"O God, strengthen Islam and Muslims and humiliate infidelity and infidels. O God, destroy those seeking to harm Muslims. O God, relieve Muslims everywhere of their suffering. O God, give support to mujahidin fighting for your sake. O God, relieve our brothers in Palestine of their plight."
From the Grand Mosque in Sanaa, Yemen:
Turning to politics, the imam condemns the Israeli "occupation for usurping Palestinian rights and destroying Palestinian homes and lands." Preparations, he says, are also under way "to occupy Iraq," although they [enemies] boast about their human rights organizations, "which only target Arab and Islamic countries." He devotes most of his sermon to pilgrimage affairs.
Concluding, the imam prays to God: "O God, give your support to Islam and Muslims and relieve our weak brothers in Palestine and Iraq of their ordeal." He goes on: "O God, give support to those supporting Islam and disappoint those disappointing Muslims. O God, promote justice and disappoint infidels and unbelievers. O God, give support to mujahidin in Palestine and Iraq, encourage them, and help them score victory over their enemies. O God, close the ranks of Muslims so that they can stand in the face of the unjust Americans and the Zionist usurpers. O God destroy the enemies of Islam, shake the ground under them, and instill fear into their hearts."
At Shaykh Ijlin mosque in Gaza, the hate is especially virulent:
Palestinians, he says, have been expelled from their homes because of their belief in God and "their readiness to offer their souls for the sake of God, the sanctities, and the Holy Land." The imam says: "While stepping up their atrocities and terrorism against us, the enemies accuse us of terrorism. They fight us with their bullets, their tanks, and their planes. We will remain patient, God willing, because our people believe in God and are sure he will defend them. Otherwise, we would not have remained patient all these years in the face of this tyrannical military machine, the strongest force in the world. It is not the fourth power in the world, as has been said. It is the strongest power in the world because the United States, the unjust country, is blindly biased toward our enemies. O Palestinians, o Muslims, we swear that nobody will enjoy safety in the world unless injustice to the Palestinian people is lifted." The imam reminds Muslims that God has asked them "to defend Al-Aqsa Mosque and this land." He also says: "After this reckless US president declared his loyalty to the Jews and planned to get rid of our president, our people, and our cause, his country lost both security and safety." The imam scoffs at the US president for asking the Palestinians to introduce reforms at a time when his country is overwhelmed by corruption, stressing that reform is a Palestinian requirement.
Concluding, the imam prays to God: "O God, help us score victory over our enemies. O God, accept our martyrs, forgive them, and have mercy on them."
From the Al-Aqsa Mosque in Ramallah:
The imam says that the US secretary of state announced two days ago that war would break out within days. The irony, he says, is that some Arab countries have asked the United States "to put off the war until after Id Al-Adha." He says: "This implicitly shows that some Arab rulers have approved the war in principle and are protesting just the timing. While Muslims slaughter sheep in Id Al-Adha, the United States will slay Muslims in Iraq in order to carry out its aggressive, criminal, terrorist, and inhuman designs." Stressing opposition to such a war, the imam urges the Islamic nation, both the rulers and the ruled, to close their ranks and to block the planned destruction of that country and its people.
Concluding, the imam prays to God: "O God, deter the aggressors and conspirators. O God, destroy them all. O God, protect Iraq and its people. O God, give us safety in our homeland and relieve us of our plight."
January 24, 2003 Friday sermons
[Destroy the Jews, Americans] Friday Sermons Slam US, Israeli Plans Against Iraq, Arab Nation
In the holy mosque at Meccathats Mecca, as in the #1 holiest place in IslamSaudi Arabia, Shaykh Usamah Khayyat warms up the crowd with a few softballs.
He praises God, the messenger, and his companions, thanking God for revealing Islam to spread justice and mercy on earth. Citing relevant Koranic verses, the imam says "Islam forbids killing innocent people."
OK, enough with the wimpy stuff. Lets get to the destroying already.
Concluding, the imam prays to God: "O God, strengthen Islam and Muslims; protect Islam; destroy the enemies of Islam, the tyrants, and the corrupt; close the ranks of Muslims, and give wisdom to their leaders. O God, grant us safety in our homeland, give wisdom to our imams and leaders, and support our leader." He goes on: "O God, help the mujahidin promote your religion and your word everywhere. O God, give them victory in Palestine. O God, destroy the Zionist Jews and their Zionist supporters."
This is how the Saudis crack down on jihad incitement. I guess Shaykh Usamah (hmm...sounds familiar) didnt get the memo from the Clown Prince.
At the Grand Mosque in Sanaa, Yemen, Shaykh Abd-al-Razzaq al-Ruqayhi (ptooey!) gets right into the freezing and the shaking and the hurting and the glavin! ... mmmhey!:
"O God, support our mujahidin brothers in Palestine, Iraq, and elsewhere. O God, strengthen them, encourage them, and give them a clear victory over their enemies. O God, destroy the Zionist aggressors and the unjust Americans. O God, shake the ground under them, instill fear into their hearts, and freeze blood in their veins. O God, close the ranks of the Muslims and give success to our president."
Yeah, president. Right. For life.
At martyr King Abdallah mosque in Amman, Jordan, Shaykh Sa'id Hijjawi pleads for Allah to kill and destroy, with help from His faithful mujahidin:
"O God, strengthen Islam and Muslims, support your mujahidin servants everywhere. O God, destroy your enemies, the enemies of Islam, for they are within your power; give this country safety; and support King Abdallah II."
At the Khalil al-Wazir mosque in Gaza, Shaykh Ibrahim al-Mudayris plays the victim card:
He urges the Palestinian people, "who are suffering more than any other people in the world," to close their ranks, stressing that the Palestinian people are the only people "still struggling against the last occupation on earth." The imam then expresses happiness at the current "historic" Cairo meeting of the leaders of the Palestinian factions and describes it "as a first step toward closing the Palestinian and Arab ranks," urging Egypt "to take more honorable, historic positions." He appeals to the participants of the meeting "to face up to their responsibility" by putting their differences aside and "renouncing their party and personal interests in favor of Palestinian national interests." The imam condemns the Israeli practices against the Palestinian people, urging Muslim pilgrims "to remember Al-Aqsa Mosque, which is as holy as the holy mosque in Medina."
Concluding, the imam prays to God: "O God, clean our country from the filth of the Jews. O God, support the people of Palestine. O God, lift the siege on the people of Palestine. O God, lift the siege on the leadership of the people of Palestine."
Can you count the lies in those two paragraphs?
At the Al Aqsa Mosque in Jerusalem, Shaykh Ikrimah Sabri shows Saddam some love:
Assailing the "aggressive plans" against Iraq, the imam says: "Threats to Iraq are escalating these days. What is prepared for Iraq will also affect other Islamic countries. Anything contrary to this reality is false and deception. All this takes place under the pretext of fighting terrorism. The West is misusing terrorism by trying to link it to our great Islamic religion. It is necessary to clarify the meaning of terrorism." Denouncing the killing of thousands of innocent people in Afghanistan as terrorism, he says that "current preparations to attack Iraq amount to terrorism." Addressing Arabs and Muslims, the imam says: "It is time for Arabs and Muslims -- rulers and ruled -- to close their ranks and block the planned US-British aggression against Iraq or any country in the Islamic world. Any aggression against any Islamic country is an aggression against the whole Islamic nation. The Islamic nation should wake up before it is too late. Under Islamic law, Muslims are prohibited from supporting any war against Iraq." The imam urges the United States, Britain, and other world countries to use their huge wealth for the benefit of humanity, calling on Muslims "not to surrender to the big powers."
Beautiful! Destroy the Americans and their Zionist masters! But first ... give us some money?
At Anas Bin-Malik mosque in Damascus, Syria, Shaykh Ziyad-al-Din al-Ayyubi reaches all the way back to the 13th century for this weeks obscure Islamic history reference:
Pilgrimage, he says, is a great Islamic conference, which we need to confront major problems "facing Arabs and Muslims in these days, particularly the tyranny of the Zionist enemy on the holy land of Palestine." He accuses the enemy [Israel] of planning to attack this nation with the support "of the United States" in order to humiliate Arabs and Muslims. Muslims, he says, need such a conference because "our children are killed in Palestine, our women are killed in Palestine, our homes are destroyed on the land of Palestine, and our trees are uprooted on the land of Palestine." The imam condemns the United States and Britain for "striking civilians and military positions in northern and southern Iraq and preparing to strike Iraq and the people of Iraq in order to control Iraq's oil, to attack Arab and Islamic countries, and to humiliate and subjugate this nation." He appeals to God to enable this nation--rulers and ruled--"to stand in the face of the Hulago of the age to block this barbaric, dirty attack." He stresses that "Syria works to block war against Iraq, as well as this despicable, corrupt marriage between Zionism and its supporters in the United States." He says he does not believe that the United States is seeking to establish democracy in Iraq, stressing that the US Administration "is planning to establish an Israeli-led Middle East." Criticizing the Saudi ambassador in Washington -- without naming him -- for declaring that he does not believe those who claim they fight for God's sake, he says "Palestinians offer themselves as martyrs on the land of Palestine for God's sake," adding that Muslims will continue to stick to their Koran. He urges Arabs to take action in the face of the upcoming aggression against Iraq before it is too late.
Concluding, the imam prays to God: "O God, give wisdom to our leaders. O God, give success to Arab and Muslim leaders and to President Bashar al-Asad and enable him to defy the Jews and their supporters."
At the Umm al-Ma'arik (Mother of Battles) mosque in Baghdad, Shaykh Abd-al-Latif Humaym informs his audience that the White House is inhabited by savage rabbis intent on humiliating Allah:
He praises God, the messenger, and his companions and says that "our nation at this historic moment is passing through a difficult test imposed by savages led by the Zionist US Administration, whose black history if full of evils and violations of our sanctities." Denouncing the inspection of mosques by the weapons inspectors as "provocative," the imam says that if these enemies enter Baghdad, "then the banner of God is great will be humiliated." He calls on Muslims to close their ranks to fight for God's sake and stresses that victory is for the faithful, citing relevant Koranic verses and giving examples from Islamic history. Revealing the current plots against Arabs, the imam says: "Iraq is not the only target. By God, tyrant Zionist America does not target Iraq just because it is Iraq, but because it carries the banner of God is great, there is no God but one God, and Muhammad is God's messenger. Yesterday, a mosque was violated and other mosques will also be violated. If they find a chance, God forbid, they will crush the Kaaba and Holy Medina. O Iraqi brothers, you are required to close your ranks and defend your goal and joint fate. By God, no banner other than that of Muhammad will be raised--a banner, which Saddam raises." Promising that the invaders will be crushed, he says: "The Iraqi people will fight side by side with Saddam Husayn. It is a religious war. A rabbi dwells the White House and reads politics through the Torah--a fact that prompts him to violate Muslims' sanctities."
Concluding, the imam prays to God: "O God, support Saddam and the Iraqis. O God, support the mujahidin in Iraq and Palestine." He goes on: "O God, destroy the Zionists and Americans, for they are within your power."
What? No request for money?
And finally, even in Qatar, where the US has an important base of operations, the freaky sheikhs are shrieking hate:
Describing pilgrimage as jihad, the imam says: "The nation of Muhammad will stick to Islam to the last drop of its blood and will never abandon its religion as a result of any pressure, any force, or any aggression." The nation, he says, is facing "a critical stage" and regrets the fact that the enemies determine the form of the nation's life and struggle. He devotes most of his sermon to pilgrimage.
Concluding, the imam prays to God: "O God, help our Muslim mujahidin score victory. O God, help our brothers on the land of Palestine score victory. O God, strengthen them and encourage them. O God, help them." He goes on: "O God, destroy your enemies, the enemies of Islam. O God disperse them and destroy them."
Friday Sermons Bid Farewell to Ramadan, Iraqi Imam Calls on Iraqis To Rely
Based on FBIS Report
[With thanks to www.mideastweb.org/mewnews1.htm ]
December 6, 2002
From the holy mosque in Mecca, Saudi Arabia:
"O God, support our brother mujahidin for your sake in Palestine and elsewhere. O God, we ask you to save Al-Aqsa Mosque from the aggressor and usurper Jews. O God, deal with the Zionist Jews for they are within your power. O God, disperse them and make them a lesson for others and booty for Muslims. O God, inflict your might on the criminal ones."
From the Shaykh Zayid Bin-Sultan Al Nuhayyan Mosque in Gaza:
Shaykh Dr. Muhammad Mustafa Najm delivers the sermon, which he begins by thanking God for "cursing the brothers of apes and pigs" until doomsday and warning Muslims "of their evil and arrogance." He cites the Koranic verse that refers to "Jews" as the most hostile. He also hails Prophet Muhammad, "the imam of the mujahidin and strugglers, who fought Jews and expelled them from the Arabian Peninsula."
Continuing, the imam says it is not strange for Jews to carry out massacres and invasions even on Muslim religious holidays. This, he adds, has always been their hostile attitude toward Muslims, who only demand their rights. He also says that it is not strange for Jews, who tried to kill the prophet, to kill Palestinians after placing them under siege, beginning with their leader. "Our leader," the imam adds, "is unfairly besieged not only by our enemies, but also by those who provide them with political, military, economic, cover."
The imam says that the United States sponsors world terrorism and practices all methods of terrorism, especially against Muslims. So what is required of us in the Holy Land and the Arab and Islamic nation is to unite and fight solidly, he says. We must rise above our differences, he adds.
The imam emphasizes the need for unity and says: "Muslims are being besieged, killed, and butchered. Our kinfolk and brothers in Iraq are being besieged. The so-called United States fabricates allegations and lies in order to wage war on them. If Muslims do not support their brothers in Palestine and Iraq, there will come a day when it would be too late to regret our inactivity. For they will swallow us up one by one, Muslim after Muslim, country after country, and seize our resources."
From president Hafiz al-Asads mosque in Damascus, Syria:
The imam asks Muslims as they celebrate the feast to think about the ones "displaced by imperialism and sinful, criminal Zionism" in Palestine. The Islamic and Arab nation, he adds, is "waging a very serious battle and passing through an important and critical phase, the phase of life or death. The enemies have attacked the lands, desecrated holy places, violated sanctities, and sowed corruption on earth." "Jihad," he affirms, "has become a duty for everyone who can help with his or her soul and money. Every individual must be ready to become a soldier fighting with his soul. Sacrifice of spirit is the most expensive thing for the best aim of saving the countries and freeing the holy lands from the occupier tyrants. Every rich person has a duty to spend his money as much as possible in order to supply the resistance with the modern weapons that will help them remain steadfast against the enemies and end their aggression." Arabs and Muslims have never succumbed to invaders, he adds.
"Our nation, will not be intimidated by the United States and those who help Israel openly and secretly," the imam says, adding: "Let Israel expel peaceful people from their homeland and let it drop its bombs and fire on peaceful villages. It will only face steadfastness, firmness, and bravery, as we believe in our just cause and our right to a free, respectable life."
The imam says: "Muslims and Arabs in all their countries, and the blessed Al-Aqsa Mosque which is part of their belief, are called upon to rise as one man and fight with their funds and souls for the sake of freeing their countries and saving Al-Aqsa Mosque and other holy places from the tyrannical Jews."
From Shaykh Abd-al-Qadir al-Jaylani mosque in Baghdad, Iraq:
"In our jihad against the administration of tyranny and evil today, we represent faith. In its present jihad, Iraq represents faith while the United States represents infidelity. We appeal to our Muslim brothers and tell them the camp of faith is here and the camp of infidelity is in the United States. The faithful is the one who joins the camp of faith under the flag of Allahu Akbar. The hypocrite is the one who fails to express an opinion and the infidel is the one who stands with evil and tyranny. We shall triumph by our dependence on God. Come closer to God as much as you can, because victory is no doubt coming. History is full of lessons."
The imam recalls incidents from Islamic history showing how God backed the faithful with His angels in times of adversity and says God will not disappoint Iraq, the country of saints -- Imam Ali, Imam Al-Husayn, Imam Al-Abbas, Imam Abu-Hanifah, and Shaykh Abd-al-Qadir al-Jaylani. "If the clique of evil ones attacks," he says, "the whole universe will shake. The angels, the heavens, and the whole world will shake if Iraq is attacked, because our strength is from God's strength."
The imam calls on worshippers to depend on God and place their trust in God. "Do not weaken," he adds, "and do not listen to the media of evil and lies. They are not ashamed to tell lies. They have no scruples about telling lies. They tell lies unashamedly." He adds: "Let them threaten as they want and let them say what they want. We have barricaded ourselves with faith and depend on God."
The imam devotes the second sermon to a solemn prayer to God for support. He prays: "O God deal with the Americans for they are within your power. O God, shake the land under their feet. O God, fight them with your angels. O God, make their plans destroy them. O God, we ask you on this blessed hour to support and aid the intifadah people in Palestine. O God, support the mujahidin in the land of Palestine."
From the Al-Rifa'i mosque in Cairo, Egypt, Dr Ahmad Umar Hashim, the head of Al-Azhar University, supreme head of the world Muslim youth association and member of the Egyptian higher Sufi council, explains that Islam is a religion of tolerance.
After the conquering and converting/subjugating is finished, that is.
He adds that it is time for the Islamic nation to be united, and for those who claim that Islam is a strict religion to understand that Islam is a religion of tolerance. To support his earlier statements, Dr Hashim says that when the prophet and his followers won the last battle against the infidels and entered city of Mecca, he did not punish the infidels who fought against him and told his followers to call that day the day of mercy.
He says that when Islam achieves victory and its instructions spread, security prevails everywhere, even for its enemies. He also says: "You, who were unjust towards our religion, this is our religion. You who are ignorant of the call of Islam, this is the call of Islam. It is the call of mercy and bliss for all humanity. It is mercy for the entire world, with its east, west, north, and south, for Muslims and non-Muslims, and Arabs and foreigners." Dr Hashim continues to relate stories of Mecca's conquest that prove Islam's mercy towards enemies. He says that Islam with its tolerant instructions calls upon the world to understand the true Islam and to believe in and follow the prophet, as the prophet is the last messenger of God. He adds that God has ordered all nations on earth to follow the prophet so that peace and security prevail on earth. He also stresses that Islam is an international religion for the whole world.
Finally, words of relative moderation from martyr King Abdallah mosque in Amman, Jordan, where the king has told the imams to lower the volume:
The imam then calls for a generation of Muslims which believes in "enlightened" Islam rather than "fanaticism." He calls for a generation, which does not oppress, betray, attack, become arrogant, run after sedition, or get misled by mirages. He calls for "a generation whose conscience and feelings are filled with love for the higher ideals, virtues, and moral values, which the world lacks today in its international and domestic relations." He says that it was on the basis of such ideals and values that the state of Islam was established. But, before resolving the problems of the world, we must resolve our own problems, he adds.
15 November 2002
[FBIS (US Government service) Report]
This weeks Peaceful Religion Watch (our summary of the insane hate speech that infests the Friday sermons of the Arab world) features two countries with intimate connections to Osama bin Laden, who are now supposed to be sorta-kinda helping the USalthough you wouldnt know it by the 100-proof vitriol spewing from these Muslim supremacist spiritual leaders.
From the Grand Mosque in Sanaa, Yemen:
"O God, support those supporting Islam, disappoint those disappointing Islam, and guide the steps of Muhammad's nation. O God, support the mujahidin in Palestine, Chechnya, and elsewhere and help them score victory over their enemies. O God, help them score a clear, quick victory. O God, destroy the aggressive Jews and the unjust Americans. O God, shake the ground under them, instill fear into their hearts, and freeze the blood in their veins."
On official Saudi Arabian TV, the freaky Shaykh exhibits the usual Saudi bloodlust, shrieking for God to destroy you know who. From the holy mosque in Mecca, the spiritual center of Islam:
"O God, protect Islam and Muslims and destroy the enemies of Islam, the tyrants, and the corrupt. O God, help Muslims close their ranks. O God, give wisdom to the Muslims' leaders. O God, support our leader and promote Islam through him. O God, help the mujahidin elevate your religion and your word. O God, support them in Palestine. O God, destroy the tyrant Jews, for they are within your power. O God, defeat these tyrant Jews."
11 October 2002
[FBIS (U.S. government agency) Report]
Once again last Friday, like clockwork, the spiritual leaders of the Arab world were screaming for Allah to kill and destroy. But something tells me Allah tuned them out a long time ago.
From the Grand Mosque in Sanaa, Yemen:
"O God, support whoever supports religion, humble whoever humbles Muslims, and give success and mercy to the nation of Muhammad." He also prays: "O God, give victory to our brother mujahidin in Palestine and everywhere. O God, make them steadfast and strengthen their hearts." He goes on: "O God, deal with the Jews and their supporters and the Christians and their supporters. Shake the land under their feet, instill fear in their hearts, and freeze the blood in their veins. O God, deal with them for they are within your power. Turn fate against them, lower their flags, divide their ranks, and disperse their assemblies. O God, we ask you to deal with them and spare us their evil. O God, make fate turn against them."
From the holy mosque in Mecca, Saudi Arabia:
The imam concludes with a prayer to God to support Islam and Muslims, destroy the enemies of religion, unify Muslims, and guide their rulers. He prays for the triumph of mujahidin in Palestine, Kashmir, and Chechnya. He also prays: "O God, deal with the oppressive Jews, as they are within your power, and spare us their evil. O God, whoever wishes us and Muslims evil, keep him preoccupied with himself and make plans destroy him."
The Syrian imam has a truly bizarre message this week; an almost plaintive effort to explain the misunderstood concept of jihad to us backward, Zionist-influenced Westerners. According to Shaykh Dr. Muhammad al-Habash (hes a shaykh and a doctor!) Dubyas right, Islam is a religion of peace and tolerance and love. But also jihad.
From Al-Zahra Mosque in Damascus, Syria:
"There is a need today to speak about jihad. Islam is the religion of tolerance, mercy, and love. But, it is also the religion of justice and jihad, and peace and power. It is not sound to imagine that the arrogant on earth have suddenly turned meek and that we could stop Zionist designs against Palestine with wisdom and good word. The tyranny that the Zionists practice daily on the land of Palestine, calls upon us to resurrect the message of jihad." God ordained jihad so this nation would repulse oppression, establish justice, and deal with life with realism and rationalism, he says, adding: There must be force to protect justice and deter oppression.
"But, this jihad, which God has ordained as a means to achieve justice on earth," the imam says, "is being distorted in Western circles. They confuse terrorism with the right to legitimate resistance. The arrogant on earth are vying with one another in describing jihad as a form of aggression. Unfortunately, some erroneous Muslim concepts contribute to spreading this wrong image of jihad."
The imam addresses President Bashar al-Asad, saying Arabs and Muslims "await a new October." This is the people's hope, he says, while they witness Zionist atrocities in Khan Yunus, Ramallah, Rafah, and Janin. "The only language that can change the attitude of this arrogant tyrant and war criminal, who is committing murder daily, is jihad as ordained by Allah and offered to us by the October War," he adds.
The imam says: "The Zionist lobby today is leading the United States, the master of the world, to an all-out confrontation with the Islamic World. The United States speaks like a great power to the world, but turns into a lowly agent for the Zionists when the matter concerns the designs of the Zionist lobby. The US Congress approved a law recognizing Jerusalem as the capital of the Hebrew state thereby flouting all international laws."
I believe what the good Dr. Shaykh is getting at, if I may paraphrase, is that as soon as they get rid of all those nasty Jews and infidels well see how peaceful and tolerant Islam can be.
Friday sermon 30 August 2002
The mullahs and imams of the Arab world spew hatred over official government TV and radio every Friday. They call their incendiary speeches sermons, and they are delivered at the most revered mosques of the Islamic world.
From Umar Bin-al-Khattab Mosque in Doha, Qatar:
"O God, we ask You, in Your Greatness and Omnipotence, to deal with the Jews and those who support them in Palestine and everywhere. O God, whoever wishes us and Muslims goodness make him succeed; and, whoever wishes us and Muslims evil deal with him. O God, support our brother Mujahidin in Palestine and everywhere on earth."
From the Grand Mosque in Sanaa, Yemen:
"O God, deal with the Jews and the Christians for they are within your power. O God, deal with the Jews and their supporters and Christians and their supporters. O God, shake the land under their feet, instill fear in their hearts, and freeze the blood in their veins. O God, make us see in them what they hate. O God, divide their ranks, scatter their assemblies, and make them booty for Islam and Muslims. O God, unite Muslims and Muslim rulers."
From the Al-Murabit mosque in the Al-Muhajirin quarter of Damascus, Syria:
The imam devotes the second part of the sermon to prayer. He prays deeply to God to end "the tribulations" of Muslims everywhere and the brothers in Palestine. He prays: "O God, deal with the Jews for they are within your power. O God, make fate turn against them. O God, we ask you to make us, Arabs and Muslims, rulers and ruled, sincere and truthful."
The screamers in Iraq are especially shrill this week. From the Imam Abi-Hanifah al-Nu'man mosque in Baghdad, Iraq:
The imam says: "Know Ye, O faithful everywhere, that the Americans, who are backed by the scum of the earth, the sons of monkeys and pigs and people of fornication and vice, who were in the lowest levels of vice and satanic whims, do not aim to attack Iraq alone. Yesterday, it was Andalusia and recently the tripartite aggression against beloved Egypt, the country of Afghanistan, and North Africa, where they wanted to eliminate the Arab entity with the English, French, Italian, and Spanish languages. Today, they are threatening Iraq and tomorrow they will threaten the Gulf, the land of the Nile, Yemen, Sudan, and other states including Syria, Lebanon, and Libya. It is a big plot, which is being concocted against Islam, Muslims, Arabdom, and faith." ...
"This is a call," the imam appeals, "to all Muslims in the world, and Arabs in particular, as well as to the followers of the noble Sufi schools stemming from the Holy Koran and the prophet's traditions. For they have been and still are people of sacrifice and a vanguard in selflessness and martyrdom. Strike at British and US interests. Fight them in every land and place, against their banks, goods, property, and persons."...
Don't dare plan an attack against Iraq, O tiny midget, W. Bush, as it is fortified by heavenly power and it would be a cemetery for you. To hell with you!"
And after being absent for a couple of weeks, our good pals the Saudis are back, praying to God to keep all the worlds terrorists snug and warm in their caves ... oh, and God? while youre at it, please destroy the Jews, OK? From the holy mosque in Mecca, Saudi Arabia:
"O God, support the mujahidin for the sake of the triumph of your religion and the elevation of your word everywhere. O God, support them in Palestine, Kashmir, and Chechnya. O God, support the mujahidin in Palestine. O God, deal with the tyrant Jews for they are within your power. O God, we ask You to face them and spare us their evils. O God, whoever wishes us and Muslims evil, busy him with himself and make his plotting destroy him."...
Friday sermon 23 August 2002
From Abu-Hanifah al-Nu'man mosque in Baghdad, Iraq:
"O God, support Islam and Muslims, elevate the word of justice and Islam, and help the believers score victory over the infidels. O God, give safety and prosperity to this country and protect Muslims' countries from disasters and diseases. O God, support your mujahidin servants everywhere. O God, support your mujahidin servants in Palestine. O God, help them score victory over the usurper Zionist Jews. O God, have mercy on the martyrs. O God, destroy the Jews and Americans for they are within your power. O God, show them a black day. O God, shake the ground under their feet, weaken them, hang their flags at half mast, down their planes, and drown their ships." He also asks God to give success to "mujahid leader Saddam Husayn."
From the Grand Mosque in Sanaa, Yemen:
"O God, support those supporting Islam and disappoint those disappointing Muslims, have mercy on us, and reform Muhammad's nation. O God, help our mujahidin brothers in Palestine and elsewhere score victory. O God, give them a clear, immediate victory over their enemies. O God, destroy the Jews and their supporters and the Christians and their supporters and followers. O God, destroy the ground under their feet, instill fear in their hearts, and freeze the blood in their veins."
At the Umar Bin-al-Khattab Mosque in Doha, Qatar, the imam has some special words for any peaceful Muslims who might want to actually, you know, make peace:
In the second part of the sermon, the imam regrets the fact that the Islamic nation punishes fedayeen by restricting their freedom of action. He says: "The proposed reform for the PA is aimed at establishing cadres capable of restricting and even killing resistance. We regret the fact that some Islamic countries have agreed to train these cadres to protect Israel's security, to control the resistance, to arrest the resistance men, and to liquidate the resistance."
Concluding, the imam prays to God: "O God, help us and protect us from our enemies. O God, protect us from the evils of our brothers, friends, and enemies. O God, protect us and save us from the conspiracies of the friends, brothers, and enemies. O God, support us, do not turn against us, and help us score victory." He goes on: "O God destroy the Jews and their supporters, including the crusaders and some so-called Muslims. O God, use your power against them. O God, save the region and the peoples from them."
[FBIS (US Government service) Report]
And I have plenty more....
smcmike #68: I know a few Muslims, the ones I know are nice people. I'm not vouching for them all,
I've seen people get all upset all over this site over what I often see is simple misunderstanding of terminology...
It may be better to differentiate "true believers" from those who simply call themselves "muslims" because they were born into Islamic backgrounds and Islam lays claims on them. And btw smcmike before you misunderstand me, Yes, I have spoken to Muslims. 1000s of them. I have lived in Islamic countries as an expat Dhimmi and been a regular poster on some Islamic websites where I have had to pretend to be one of them just so I can engage in conversation without them banning me. And yes, I have read the Quran all the way thru, as well as many of the Hadiths, and articles of Islamic jurisprudence, spoken to Imams and Islamic scholars, been in Mosques etc. I understand both the Islamic religion, and their culture.
I have also made several good "Muslim" friends (not "true believers") who are great people who dont care all that much for what Islam preaches, and I also liberally use the term "koranimal" to describe those who use the word and teachings of the koran to act like (you guessed it) animals. Normally, when I live overseas, I learn about others cultures, way of life and beliefs, and end up having a certain respect for it after being given some insight. I think Islam is the only thing I've ever come across where the more I've learned about it, the more outraged I've become.
It's nothing more than an intolerant death cult that promotes gender and religious apartheid. Muslims like Ibn Warraq, Ali Sina and Ayaan Hirsi Ali have woken up to this fact. I hope more will.
They will not wake up.
The policy of appeasement only encourages terrorism.
I expect we will see some attacks in the EU very soon.
I think Islam is the only thing I've ever come across where the more I've learned about it, the more outraged I've become.
Although my experience is not as widespread as yours I have lived in Muslim countries and observed these cultures up close, not just from the comfort of my barca lounge and computer screen. The closer one looks, the more one becomes appalled by what is observable at all levels.
Islam is a medieval, monstrous system of religion embracing government, culture and law and without redeeming value. It is a crushing, totalitarian web of lies, deceits and oppressions disguising itself as something "holy". It is antithetical to the beliefs and values we Westerners are fortunate enough to hold dear.
It looks like you found a place to start.
Hey, my printer is running out of ink!
Heheh... I know the feeling. I've spent loads more on printer ink than what my printer cost. That's why I keep all this stuff filed on my PC hard drive and keep CD/DVD backups to throw up from my laptop.
Well...if you wrote that book I was talking about I could have this wealth of knowledge all in one nice hardback! ;0)
Raving nutters -- dumping all the bile they picked up in some radical mosque.
History indicates that "something" will be done--- eventually. Until than we must labor in the shadows of political correctness else we have the 'Thought Police' come visit us.
Don't believe we have such an agency? Think again. The time may come when Orwell will be a revered as Plato.
Have all the information in one place. It would save you a lot of time.
Thanks for the marvelous response which exposes Islam for what it truly is... a fiendish, satanic death cult built upon mindless brutality, self-serving lies and despicable deception !!!
However, I smilingly disagree with your obvious descriptive term "koranimals"... in as much as it actually is an insult to animals. An animal does NOT behave like an Islamofascist Muzzle-em murderer!!!
An animal kills only for food or in self-defense... but it never hides its face, then beheads other animals JUST FOR THE FUN OF IT, while simultaneously yowling "Ahoooooooo... Ahoooooooo" (Allah akbar!... Allah akbar!)
Animals have more sense and common decency... hence it is an insult to animals to infer that Islamofascist Muzzle-em murderers act like animals !!! ;-))
That's the problem. It's pure hatred for Jews and Christians in that book --- yet we're allowing it while banning other hate speech. This killer and all the rest are just following the commands given to them in that book. Commands issued down from Mohammad who practiced what he preached and murdered many Jews and Christians himself.
I have read the Qu'ran, as well as large chunks of the Hadith. The way it is laid out, the early passages (written when the Muslims were few and weak) are the "peace" passages. The later passages (from when they were strong conquerers) are the "death to infidels" passages. The Imams teach that later passages supercede earlier passages
From my copy of the Koran:
Fight against such of those who have been given the Scripture as believe not in Allah nor the Last Day ... until they pay the tribute readily, being brought lowSunnah Volume 4, Book 52, Number 53:
O ye who believe! Choose not for friends such of those who received the Scriptures before you
Then, when the sacred months have passed, slay the idolaters wherever ye find them, and take them captive, and besiege them, and prepare for them each ambush...
And slay them wherever ye find them ... Such is the reward of disbelievers.
Narrated Anas bin Malik:Sunnah Volume 4, Book 52, Number 63:
The Prophet said, "Nobody who dies and finds good from Allah (in the Hereafter) would wish to come back to this world even if he were given the whole world and whatever is in it, except the martyr who, on seeing the superiority of martyrdom, would like to come back to the world and get killed again (in Allah's Cause)."
Narrated Al-Bara:The Hadith Volume 4, Book 52, Number 176:
A man whose face was covered with an iron mask (i.e. clad in armor) came to the Prophet and said, "O Allah's Apostle! Shall I fight or embrace Islam first? "The Prophet said, "Embrace Islam first and then fight." So he embraced Islam, and was martyred. Allah's Apostle said, A Little work, but a great reward. "(He did very little (after embracing Islam), but he will be rewarded in abundance)."
Narrated 'Abdullah bin 'Umar:The Hadith Volume 4, Book 52, Number 177:
Allah's Apostle said, "You (i.e. Muslims) will fight with the Jews till some of them will hide behind stones. The stones will (betray them) saying, 'O 'Abdullah (i.e. slave of Allah)! There is a Jew hiding behind me; so kill him.' "Narrated Abu Huraira:Volume 4, Book 52, Number 196:
Allah's Apostle said, "The (Final) Hour will not be established until you fight with the Jews, and the stone behind which a Jew will be hiding will say. "O Muslim! There is a Jew hiding behind me, so kill him."Narrated Abu Huraira:Volume 4, Book 52, Number 256:
Allah 's Apostle said, " I have been ordered to fight with the people till they say, 'None has the right to be worshipped but Allah,' and whoever says, 'None has the right to be worshipped but Allah,' his life and property will be saved by me except for Islamic law, and his accounts will be with Allah, (either to punish him or to forgive him.)"Narrated As-Sab bin Jaththama:Volume 4, Book 52, Number 265:
The Prophet passed by me at a place called Al-Abwa or Waddan, and was asked whether it was permissible to attack the pagan warriors at night with the probability of exposing their women and children to danger. The Prophet replied, "They (i.e. women and children) are from them (i.e. pagans)." I also heard the Prophet saying, "The institution of Hima [sanctuary; inviolate zone] is invalid except for Allah and His Apostle."
[ translation: the women and children of infidels are acceptable "collateral damage". A Muslim has no need to avoid killing them while attacking infidels (as the Palestinian suicide bombers demonstrate repeatedly) ]Narrated Al-Bara bin Azib:Volume 4, Book 52, Number 268:
Allah's Apostle sent a group of the Ansar to Abu Rafi. Abdullah bin Atik entered his house at night and killed him while he was sleeping.Narrated Abu Huraira:Volume 4, Book 52, Number 271:
Allah's Apostle called,: "War is deceit".Narrated Jabir:Volume 4, Book 52, Number 280:
The Prophet said, "Who is ready to kill Ka'b bin Ashraf (i.e. a Jew)." Muhammad bin Maslama replied, "Do you like me to kill him?" The Prophet replied in the affirmative. Muhammad bin Maslama said, "Then allow me to say what I like." The Prophet replied, "I do (i.e. allow you)."Narrated Abu Sa'id Al-Khudri:Volume 4, Book 52, Number 283:
When the tribe of Bani Quraiza was ready to accept Sad's judgment, Allah's Apostle sent for Sad who was near to him. Sad came, riding a donkey and when he came near, Allah's Apostle said (to the Ansar), "Stand up for your leader." Then Sad came and sat beside Allah's Apostle who said to him. "These people are ready to accept your judgment." Sad said, "I give the judgment that their warriors should be killed and their children and women should be taken as prisoners." The Prophet then remarked, "O Sad! You have judged amongst them with (or similar to) the judgment of the King Allah."Narrated Abu Juhaifa:Volume 8, Book 82, Number 829:
I asked Ali, "Do you have the knowledge of any Divine Inspiration besides what is in Allah's Book?" 'Ali replied, "No, by Him Who splits the grain of corn and creates the soul. I don't think we have such knowledge, but we have the ability of understanding which Allah may endow a person with, so that he may understand the Qur'an, and we have what is written in this paper as well." I asked, "What is written in this paper?" He replied, "(The regulations of) blood-money, the freeing of captives, and the judgment that no Muslim should be killed for killing an infidel."Narrated Al-Mughira:Volume 9, Book 84, Number 57:
Sa'd bin Ubada said, "If I found a man with my wife, I would kill him with the sharp side of my sword." When the Prophet heard that he said, "Do you wonder at Sa'd's sense of ghira (self-respect)? Verily, I have more sense of ghira than Sa'd, and Allah has more sense of ghira than I."Narrated 'Ikrima:Volume 9, Book 84, Number 58:
Some Zanadiqa (atheists) were brought to 'Ali and he burnt them. The news of this event, reached Ibn 'Abbas who said, "If I had been in his place, I would not have burnt them, as Allah's Apostle forbade it, saying, 'Do not punish anybody with Allah's punishment (fire).' I would have killed them according to the statement of Allah's Apostle, 'Whoever changed his Islamic religion, then kill him.'"Narrated Abu Burda:
Abu Musa said, "I came to the Prophet along with two men (from the tribe) of Ash'ariyin, one on my right and the other on my left, while Allah's Apostle was brushing his teeth (with a Siwak), and both men asked him for some employment. The Prophet said, 'O Abu Musa (O 'Abdullah bin Qais!).' I said, 'By Him Who sent you with the Truth, these two men did not tell me what was in their hearts and I did not feel (realize) that they were seeking employment.' As if I were looking now at his Siwak being drawn to a corner under his lips, and he said, 'We never (or, we do not) appoint for our affairs anyone who seeks to be employed. But O Abu Musa! (or 'Abdullah bin Qais!) Go to Yemen.'" The Prophet then sent Mu'adh bin Jabal after him and when Mu'adh reached him, he spread out a cushion for him and requested him to get down (and sit on the cushion). Behold: There was a fettered man beside Abu Muisa. Mu'adh asked, "Who is this (man)?" Abu Muisa said, "He was a Jew and became a Muslim and then reverted back to Judaism." Then Abu Muisa requested Mu'adh to sit down but Mu'adh said, "I will not sit down till he has been killed. This is the judgment of Allah and His Apostle (for such cases) and repeated it thrice. Then Abu Musa ordered that the man be killed, and he was killed. Abu Musa added, "Then we discussed the night prayers and one of us said, 'I pray and sleep, and I hope that Allah will reward me for my sleep as well as for my prayers.'"
Islam is to be imposed by force.* Mohammed said, "I have been ordered to fight with the people till they say, "None has the right to be worshipped but Allah, and whoever says, " None has the right to be worshipped but Allah , his life and property will be saved by me." (otherwise it will not). Vol. 4:196
Apostasy is punishable by death.* Mohammed said, "Whoever changes his Islamic religion, kill him." Vol. 9:57
Ethnic cleansing is practiced.* Mohammed said to the Jews, "You should know that the earth belongs to Allah and His Apostle (Mohammed) and I want to expel you from this land (The Arabian Peninsula), so, if anyone owns property, he is permitted to sell it." Vol. 4:392
* Mohammed's last words at his deathbed were: "Turn the pagans (non-Muslims) out of the Arabian Peninsula." Vol. 5:716
He who disbelieves in Allah after his belief in Him, (is the liar) except he who is compelled while his heart remains steadfast with the faith (has nothing worry). But who opens his breast for infidelity; on these is wrath of Allah, and for them is a great torment.
--Quran, Surah 16 (an‑Nahl), verse 100
This verse of the Quran refers to the incident when 'Ammar bin Yasir (May Allah be pleased with both) had to utter some words against Islam to save himself from the Quraishite infidels.
The Qur'an clearly allows hiding one 's true faith when one is in danger of one's life. This rule is called taqiyah.
Question 1: What is the meaning of "Taqiyah"?
Answer: Its literal meaning is to safeguard; to defend; to fear; piety (because it saves one from the displeasure of Allah).
Question 2: What is its significance in Islamic terminology?
Answer: In Islamic terminology it means "to save life, honour. or property (either one's own or of other believers) by hiding one's belief or religion".
I imagine the rule would apply in a lesser way to a Muslim who hides his jihad sympathies.
APPENDIX I TAQIYAH Or DISSIMULATION`Allamah Tabataba'iOne of the most misunderstood aspects of Shi'ism is the practice of dissimulation or taqiyah. With the. wider meaning of taqiyah. "to avoid or shun any kind of danger," we are not concerned here. Rather, our aim is to discuss that kind of taqiyah in which a man hides his religion or certain of his religious practices in situations that would cause definite or probable danger as a result of the actions of those who are opposed to his religion or particular religious practices.
Among followers of the different schools of Islam, Shi'ites are well known for their practice of taqiyah. In case of danger they dissimulate their religion and hide their particular religious and ritual practices from their opponents.
The sources upon which the Shi'ites base themselves in this question include the following verse of the Holy Quran: "Let not the believers take disbelievers for their friends in preference to believers. Whoso doeth that hath no connection with Allah unless (it be) that ye but guard yourselves against them [tattaqu minhum. from the same root as taqiyah], taking (as it were) security [tuqatan. again from the same root as taqiyah]. Allah biddeth you beware (only) of Himself. Unto Allah is the journeying" (III, 28). As is clear from this sacred verse, God, the,Most Exalted, forbids with the utmost emphasis wilayah (meaning in this case friend- ship and amity to the extent that it affects one's life) with un- believers and orders man to be wary and have fear in such a situation.
In another place He says, "Whoso disbelieveth in Allah after his belief-save him who is forced thereto and whose heart is still content with Faith-but whoso findeth ease in disbelief: On them is wrath from Allah. Theirs will be an awful doom" (Quran, XVI, 106). As mentioned in both Sunni and Shi'ite sources this verse was revealed concerning `Ammar ibn Yasir. After the migration (hijrah) of the Prophet the infidels of Mecca imprisoned some of the Muslims of that city and tortured them, forcing them to leave Islam and to return to their former religion of idolatry. Included in this group who were tortured were Ammar and his father and mother. Ammar's parents refused to turn away from Islam and died under torture. But Ammar. in order to escape torture and death, outwardly left Islam and accepted idol worship, thereby escaping from danger. Having become free, he left Mecca secretly for Medina. In Medina he went before the Holy Prophet-upon whom be blessings and peace--and in a state of penitence and distress concerning what he had done asked the Prophet if by acting as he did he had fallen outside the sacred precinct of religion. The Prophet said that his duty was what he had accomplished. The above verse was then revealed.
The two verses cited above were revealed concerning particular cases but their meaning is such that they embrace all situations in which the outward expression of doctrinal belief and religious practice might bring about a dangerous situation. Besides these verses, there exist many traditions from the members of the Household of the Prophet ordering taqiyah when there is fear of danger.
Some have criticized Shi'ism by saying that to employ the practice of taqiyah in religion is opposed to the virtues of courage and bravery. The least amount of thought about this accusation will bring to light its invalidity, for taqiyah must be practiced in a situation where man faces a danger which he cannot resist and against which he cannot fight. Resistance to such a danger and failure to practice taqiyah in such circumstances shows rashness and foolhardiness. not courage and bravery. The qualities of courage and bravery can be applied only when there is at least the possibility of success in man's efforts. But before a definite or probable danger against which there is no possibility of victory throwing oneself before a cannon that is being fired or lying down on the tracks before an onrushing train-any action of this kind is nothing but a form of madness contrary to logic and common sense. Therefore, we can summarize by saying that taqiyah must be practiced only when there is a definite danger which cannot be avoided and against which there is no hope of a successful strug gle and victory.
The exact extent of danger which would make permissible the practice of taqiyah has been debated among different mujtahids of Shi'ism. In our view, the practice of taqiyah is permitted if there is definite danger facing one's own life or the life of one's family, or the possibility of the loss of the honor and virtue of one's wife or of other female members of the family,or the danger of the loss of one's material belongings to such an extent as to cause complete destitution and prevent a man from being able to continue to support himself and his family. In any case, prudence and the avoidance of definite or probable danger which cannot be averted is a general law of logic accepted by all people and applied by men in all the different phases of their lives. From out of the Sunnah: Volume 8, Book 82, Number 829: Narrated Al-Mughira: Sa'd bin Ubada said, "If I found a man with my wife, I would kill him with the sharp side of my sword." When the Prophet heard that he said, "Do you wonder at Sa'd's sense of ghira (self-respect)? Verily, I have more sense of ghira than Sa'd, and Allah has more sense of ghira than I."
That wouldn't explain them slaughtering over two million Sudanese --- or the slaughter going on in Indonesia --- or why they constantly are on the warpath with Hindus in India.
Why does it matter if we do? We also have a close association with Canada, England, and some others. Why do Arabs who believe in creating a giant Islamic state have such a problems with the Jews having a state? Why the enormous hatred? There is something very unnatural in their hate --- something that comes directly from the Koran.
It's a lot like the Nazis. At one time they dreamed of controlling the world --- they were marching all over Europe and were actually gaining supporters in countries like Italy who were quick to recognize the authority of the master race. Once Nazism was defeated --- look how many former Nazis tried to deny what they were. They fled like rats and went into hiding --- pretending to their new neighbors they never did what they did. Even today --- try to find people who will admit their parents and grandparents were Nazis. Many muslims are the same way --- they will follow along with anything --- they close their eyes to what their ideology is about --- they want to be on the side that wins though -- and right now they fear the consequences they would have by speaking out or changing religions.
You obviously know a lot more about the subject than I, and in general I agree with what you are saying anyways (though I don't see much value in classifying groups of people as animals). Like I said earlier, I actually disagree fairl violently with many aspects of Islamic theology. I'm just arguing here for a more moderate view on how we should REACT to it than "Kill em all and let Allah sort em out." I think there are a lot of ways that we can interact with Islamic cultures that can encourage a "liberalization" of their societies at large. The core of "true believers" may be beyond reasoning with, but I suspect if you cut off their base of support, they will whither and die (well, I suppose it's more likely that "explode and die" is better terminology here).
As to my comments on Isreal:
No, Isreal is NOT the root of all problems between Muslims and the rest of the world. Fundementalist Islam is the root of the problem, as well as the general state of poverty of most of the regions in which it is practiced (whether that poverty creates fundementalism or is created by it, I don't know).
Irsreal, is, however, the biggest stumbling block to improved relations with the Middle East, the heart of the Muslim world. Now, I support Isreal, and their right to defend themselves, they have to deal with sh*t that America can't even imagine. And many Arabs certainly do have a problem with Jews having a state. The fact remains, though, that the Palestinians do have some legitimate grievances-though they certainly lost the support of the world (and of me) when they started strapping bombs to themselves. But in their eyes, basically what they are dealing with is not just a Jewish state, but a Jewish state that came into creation within living memory by systematically removing the native inhabitants of their territory, and has since then maintained an unequal society in which the Palestinians have few political rights or economic opportunities. If we can build a stable peace between Palestine and Isreal, we ameliorate not only one of the sore points for greater Muslim-American relations, but also, hopefully, eliminate the most significant hot spot of terrorism in the world, by offering political and economic opportunities in a stable society. It's much harder to convince a kid to blow himself up if he sees his future as promising.
A note for those who know more about Islamic scripture than I: I have heard that standard interpretations of Islamic theology see suicide as a deadly sin, which I think goes to show that you can't say that all of the hate comes from the Koran in an objective sense: the extremists USE the Koran to advance their adgenda. What do you think?
Who's Plato ;o)
Please outline those legitimate grievances. It's a straight question. Please provide a straight answer.
I'm just arguing here for a more moderate view on how we should REACT to it than "Kill em all and let Allah sort em out." I think there are a lot of ways that we can interact with Islamic cultures that can encourage a "liberalization" of their societies at large.
I've thrown up ideas myself.... is there anything significantly different to what we're doing (as in official US policy) now that you think will help in the "war on terror?"
smcmike #134: But in their eyes, basically what they are dealing with is not just a Jewish state,
Smcmike, you're onto something when you bring up how Muslims see things from their warped perspective.
Here's some insight from a "moderate" mainstream Islamic site, Islam Q+A. Note, I deliberately chose a "moderate" site... theres worse on other sites.
You see, they're quoting the "kill the Jews" mantra because they believe that the Islamic "end of days" will not come about until trees come alive and command "true believers" to kill Jews in a weird Islamic enchanted forest type scenario.
According to a report narrated by Muslim from Abu Hurayrah, the Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) said: The Hour [the Day of Judgement] will not begin until the Muslims fight the Jews and kill them. A Jew will hide behind a rock or a tree, and the rock or tree will say, O Muslim, O slave of Allaah! There is a Jew behind me, come and kill him! except for the gharqad (box thorn), for it is one of the trees of the Jews. (Reported by Muslim, 2922).
Theres not much you can do to reason with that. "It's written..." followed by an antisemitic diatribe appears to be the standard response they seem to offer me when I push it.
You need to understand what they really mean when they say "peace" or ask for a "truce" (hudna), and that to solve this conflict, to have to understand it's not just a war - its a RELIGIOUS WAR - and have to take the religious aspect (no matter how un-PC that is) into consideration.
As for suicide... yes, that is harram (a sin) , but shahadah (martyrdom) for Islam is the greatest sacrifice, so a shaheed (martyr) is granted an automatic pass to paradise for themselves, and for members of their family, where they are either granted 72 hoorin (virgins, or raisins, depending on who you choose to believe) and served by "beautiful young boys."
I have even argued the point that the many of the Quranic verses that describe martyrdom describe "kutila" (those killed) and not "katala" (who kill) for Allahs cause, but have been defeated on this issue many times over on the RoP forums and have long since given up, so 72 virgins, young boys, wine and a packet of raisins for shaheeds it is.
smcmike: The fact remains, though, that the Palestinians do have some legitimate grievances...I'm kind of curious myself, but anyway, like smcmike admits, they lost all support when they started strapping bombs to themselves.
Please outline those legitimate grievances. It's a straight question. Please provide a straight answer.
Rewarding terrorism will only encourage it's future use, and must be avoided at all costs.
WHERE THERE ARE MUSLIMS ,THERE IS TROUBLE
You may have noticed by now what I'm trying to do is get mike to recognize his "opinion" is nothing but a collection of platitudes and cliches. Not with much success, I might add.
I've been hoping to demonstrate to him, by asking questions designed to require verifiable infomation as answers, that what he "knows" is actually nothing but a series of policy statements, and those from sources trying to spin this as a bilateral problem.
Unfortunately, our culture is so corrupted with the doctrine of "compromise" that I've literally witnessed victimized spouses desperately trying to construct rationalizations of how they "drove them to it." The idea of a unilateral aggressor is a totally alien concept.
Frankly, I've about given up. He's freely admitted he knows less about the subject than many of the posters on this thread, all of whom disagree with him, yet maintains his opinions have merit. This is "invincible ignorance" by its classical definition.
Mike, I'm hoping you're a relatively young person, because most of what I've heard from you is a somewhat more sophisticated version of the teenagers' plaintive "you just don't understand what I'm saying." For me, it would be a real "jackalope sighting" if you're a conservative holding such doctrinaire views unmodified by life experience.
Perhaps you are right, and I should stop trying to argue on this forum (you know what they say about arguing on the internet). I clearly don't have the ammo to change anyone's minds here.
But I also don't buy the argument that my lack of knowledge invalidates my position: There are a lot of people who ARE relative experts in the field who would agree with me (for instance, I would argue, the president of the united states), and I haven't seen any convincing arguments that refute my central points... which were, I believe, that we shouldn't just kill Muslims indiscriminately, and that it is possible to work with some segments of the muslim population. (not exactly an extreme statement, I would say) I also am good friends with a couple of PhD students who work on ME diplomatic history, so while I don't have the expertise myself, I do know that many who do wouldn't agree with you.
As far as the Palestinians having legitimate grievances, I won't go into detail, since, like I said, I don't have the ammo. But it does seem to me that as the previous occupiers of Isreal, who were driven off their land through military action, to claim that they have no legitimate grievances and are only acting out because they are insane animals is dishonest.
No, it's not. And while you're right, they left their homes because of military action, just whose military action caused them to leave?
Hint: It wasn't the Israelis!
Hey, I'm not trying to assign blame! I'm just saying that even if we disagree with the demands of the Palestinians, we can understand them somewhat. The 48 war resulted in 100s of thousands of refugees, who left jewish territory. While the Arab states certainly weren't the "victims" in the war, the refugees were expelled from Jewish held territory.
Refusal to accept that there were nasty things done by both sides is simply denial.
"And The Lord said to me: "The prophets are prophesying lies in My Name; I did not send them, nor did I command them or speak to them. They are prophesying to you a lying vision, worthless divination, and the deceit of their own minds." (Jeremiah 14:14 RSV)
Islam is a cult started by a "false prophet" and Satan is Allah---
I'm not denying both sides did nasty things for a moment, but your claim that the arab residents were "expelled" from "jewish" territory needs some substantiation.
Many arabs left (temporarily, so they thought) on the advice of the attacking states (Nasser himself I believe). My understanding is others were told to leave; which they did, not lifting a finger to defend their territorial integrity from the invading armies of five different sovereign states. (i.e. they picked to side with the invaders, and the invaders lost)
Now if you can find an arab resident that had his properties forcefully expropriated, while at the same time worked in any capacity to maintain the aforementioned territorial integrity, I'll concede that person has a grievance. But all those arabs holding Israeli citizenship had to come from somewhere.
As for the rest of them, you may as well claim all those distraught democrats out there have a "legitimate grievance" too.
Note to the Netherlands...kill all your Muslims now!
Uncle Ali wants to tell you a bedtime story:
"I surely know that you, O America, will be destroyed "
"I surely know that you O Europe, will be destroyed"
"I surely know that you O Holland will be destroyed"
"I surely know that you, O Hirshi Ali will be destroyed"
"I surely know that you, O unbelieving fundamentalists, will be destroyed "
Hasboena Allah wa ni3ma alwakeel.
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