Catholic Ping - please freepmail me if you want on/off this list
Posted on 11/16/2004 6:09:31 AM PST by NYer
MADRID, November 15, 2004 (LifeSiteNews.com) - The traditionally Catholic country of Spain is traveling a well-worn path towards liberal values, including same-sex "marriage," legalization of fetal embryonic research, and an easing of abortion laws -- legal measures implemented by the country's new Socialist government under Prime Minister Jose Luis Rodriguez Zapatero.
Northern city of Avila Bishop Jesus Garcia Burrillo described the recent government-imposed changes as "a violent cultural earthquake," in his recent pastoral letter, as reported by the Philadelphia Inquirer. "It is not easy to find in history, in such a short space of time, so many changes affecting morality [except] in time of coups d'etat," he said.
The Catholic Church has historically held a great degree of sway over public policy: one year of separation is mandatory before divorces are granted, for example, and abortion is still only legal if the mother's health is at risk, even though the definition of "health" is so widely interpreted as to be meaningless.
Zapatero, besides making access to abortion easier, legalizing embryonic stem cell research and same-sex "marriage," wants to eliminate mandatory religion classes in schools as well.
Cardinal Antonio Maria Rouco, archbishop of Madrid, said the new policies hearken back to a time when the country was subjugated by Muslim Moors. "Some people wish to place us in the year 711," he said in July. "It seems as if we are meant to wipe ourselves out of history."
While the Socialists eliminate religion classes teaching Catholic and Christian values in public schools, they plan to introduce Islamic religion classes in public schools in 2005. The National Catholic Confederation of Parents of Families and Students have condemned the measure, saying religious tolerance is exercised for Muslims, "but hindered in the case of Catholics." Islamic religion classes are proposed for several major cities including Barcelona and Madrid.
Catholic Ping - please freepmail me if you want on/off this list
Ping!
Bring back Ferdinand & Isabella!
You get what you vote for.
I sit and wonder how the staunch Catholic countries of Europe (especially the land of Ferdinand and Isabella) have utterly and completely abandoned their Faith. This is the land that fought the Holy Wars during the Crusades. Has the blood of those that fought the Moors in Spain and the Crusades in the Holy Land been forgotten completely?
I was in Spain last week and it is true that this great country is going to hell in a handbasket led by Zapatero's Socialists. However, the Spaniards are beginning to realize the big error that they made when they caved in to the terrorists after 3/11 when they got rid of Aznar. I am so proud of the American people that we kept Bush otherwise Kerry would have done to this country what Zapatero is doing to Spain. And by the way, the Madrid Cardinal is a possible papal succesor.
The Church prospers in persecution and suffering and atrophies during times of prosperity. I believe that the Lord keeps the Mohammedans around to serve an obvious purpose.
You get what you vote for. But keep in mind that the United States voted for clinton. Twice.
I'm hopeful that Spain will pull out of this. France is hopeless. Belgium is hopeless. Luxembourg is hopeless. Germany is nearly hopeless. But maybe Spain will recover before it's too late.
Stick a fork in 'em ...
Sounds good to me!
Clinton won because of who he ran against. George H.W. Bush didn't really want another four years and Bob Dole, well, what can you say about the "tax collector for the welfare state" ? Jessie Ventura won in Minnesota for the same reasons...
You missed the Perot Factor!!!!!!
Jesus said the gates of hell will not prevail against the church. Sometimes persecution is what it takes to wake people up. Lets hope and pray that Europe will wake up sooner rather than later and return to Christianity, not in name only, but with heartfelt conviction.
Bump
We can only hope, they have people with some backbone left in their country. So far, there's been no good news. Spanish "Cultural Revolution" is underway.
Secondly, the relationship of the Catholic church and Spain has a sorted and recent history. Sadly, the media in Spain relates the days of Franco the Dictator that died in the mid 1970's with the Catholic church. This relationship sets the leftists in Spain off on the Fascism = Church argument which fortunately is no longer true. However, in the past (1930 - 1970) this was true and many Spanish conservatives are still very angry at the church. Couple this with the 3/11 bombings, the youth vote coming out in force, and a media that makes our legacy MSM look like a part of the RNC and you end up with the Socialists in power. It's a difficult situation, but they are also a democracy and will have another election one day soon.
What are you smoking?
The changes are a coward's reward.
Do you just make that stuff up?
"(two national surveys since the election have shown that 84 percent of the Perot voters have some partisan leaning, as measured by a party image scale). In Texas, and in all of the recent national surveys, this Perotista partisanship leans decidedly Republican. This presents an interesting question: Are the present GOP tendencies of the Perot voters a) inherent and longstanding, b) held because of congruence with their political ideology, or c) simply identification with the outs against the ins? We believe the answer is all of the above, but that the last point, anti-establishment views, is the most important factor."
I am shocked and stunned.
He certainly wasn't my choice.
The Socialists are also allocating money for the building of mosques in Spain.
The only thing I can say in defense of Spanish voters is that none of these things were announced in the Socialist campaign platform. They were never even mentioned until ZP announced them (gay "marriage," attacks on Christianity, etc.) right after he was installed . He has been much more radical than even many Socialists expected.
Furthermore, his attitude toward the Basque and Catalan radical nationalist contingents has been so accomodating that it seems to me that Spain as we know it may be headed for dissolution. Historically, of course, times of internal dispute in Spain have been when the Muslims have made their move, so I guess we know what to expect next.
I, too, wonder about this. All those centuries of rich tradition and beautiful culture and strong faith seemingly dissolved in less than a century and not because of any war or overt takeover. Very tragic with implications for us all. Christians here and in Europe have been systematically demonized over the 'TV' era, most of the damage occurring after WWII, most of it after the invention of TV. It's not like the faith was weak in places like Spain.
Spain's Socialist-Led Descent into Darkness
It would seem, for most people, this title would be redundant. Socialists have a proven track record over the last 100 yrs of leading it's followers and unwitting citizens into darkness. Yet, time and time again, despite the very public failures and abuses of socialism, new groups rush into it, by choice!, while others await rescue from it (Eastern Europe and Cuba, as communism and socialism often morph into one another).
Great analysis, you know your wife's country very well.
Nice jump. We are all talking about 1992, not 1996.
Oh it gets much worse
Spain to pay protection money to mosques
MADRID, Aug. 2 - The Spanish government has begun formal discussions on a proposal to expand financing to religious institutions, and security officials say that one intention is to subsidize mosques to make them less dependent on money from militant groups abroad.
The Justice Ministry proposal, which legal scholars say is likely to test the limits of Spain's separation of church and state, reflects a widespread belief among counterterrorism officials here that Spanish mosques are vulnerable to the influences of militant groups because they feel the need to turn to the militants for money....
"It's about keeping them from having to look outside for financing because the state does not, in a way, support their activities," Antonio Camacho, the secretary of state security at the Interior Ministry, said in an interview.
Spanish investigators said the terrorists who blew up four trains in Madrid on March 11, killing 191 people, attended mosques here that had ties to Wahhabism, a militant form of Islam that is the predominant doctrine in Saudi Arabia.
Spain has six formally established mosques and 220 to 230 small, informal ones, according to the Islamic Commission of Spain, which is recognized by the government as the official voice of Spain's Muslims.
The proposal to finance mosques has stoked opposition from conservatives. An editorial in the center-right newspaper El Mundo said it was a mistake because Islam "does not defend tolerance."
Counterterrorism specialists, however, have backed the idea. Jesús Núñez Villaverde, director of the Institute for the Study of Conflicts and Humanitarian Action, a research organization, told Parliament recently that Spain must find a way to dilute the presence of "fundamentalist religious expression that is financed through its own channels, and for which we have not one single instrument of influence, contact or association."
"The Church prospers in persecution and suffering and atrophies during times of prosperity. I believe that the Lord keeps the Mohammedans around to serve an obvious purpose."
Very insightful comment! and the facts seem to confirm this!
If one looks back at the divisiveness in the Christian Church of the 6th and 7th centuries and again in the 14th and 15th centuries one can only see Jesus' Church racked with bitter doubt and divisiveness and ascendant Islam.
"Secondly, the relationship of the Catholic church and Spain has a sorted and recent history. Sadly, the media in Spain relates the days of Franco the Dictator that died in the mid 1970's with the Catholic church. This relationship sets the leftists in Spain off on the Fascism = Church argument which fortunately is no longer true. However, in the past (1930 - 1970) this was true and many Spanish conservatives are still very angry at the church. Couple this with the 3/11 bombings, the youth vote coming out in force, and a media that makes our legacy MSM look like a part of the RNC and you end up with the Socialists in power."
Sorry to say this, but I suspect your wife's education must have been woefully inadequate, that is to say, leftist. Spanish conservatives have never been "angry" at the Church for opposing the radical leftists who populated the Spanish "Republican" ranks during the 1930's Spanish Revolution. The Stalinists, Anarchists, and Socialists that Franco thankfully defeated had a utopian agenda that neatly squares with the type of statist policies that today's Socialists under Zapatero are trying to implement. Except that during the 1930's their agenda included killing and murdering Catholics outright in large numbers, rather than through stealth tactics, like today.
Franco was ALWAYS a hero to Spanish conservatives for putting this communist-led takeover down. He was thus vilified to the end by the communists and leftists of all stripes for having the audacity to prevail against them. The fact that he entered into a temporary alliance with Hitler (before WWII, and when no other country, even the US was willing to assist his efforts) to accomplish this makes his victory even more hateful to leftists. Sort of like the bulls**t propaganda we've just witnessed leveled against President Bush for his virtues, not his faults.
Ask your wife this question; Which European country was the first to codify the acceptance of unrestricted abortion in the modern era? If she doesn't know the answer, tell her that it was the "Spanish Republic" in the early 1930's. These are the kinds of atrocities that Franco, and his conservative Spanish supporters, fought against.
Wow. Even though I have a close relationship with a Spaniard, you definitely have your facts about Spanish history down. Thanks for the reply.
While the Socialists eliminate religion classes teaching Catholic and Christian values in public schools, they plan to introduce Islamic religion classes in public schools in 2005
There seems to be a connection between Islam and socialist governments, but I have not figured it out yet.
Quote of the day! Short, sweet, to the point!
Thank God for giving George W. and the American people an additional 4 years to slow the encroachment of marxism to this beautiful land.
Yes, in '96, Perot's effect on the re-election was minimal, but in '92 it was devastating. His mere presence on the stage in the debates gave legitamacy to his meaning-less campaign and promoted Clinton as a "reasonable" alternative to "things as they are"! Perot raised a lot of unfair questions, voiced a lot of homey angst but gave no solutions. In short, he gummed up the political works and caused 8 years of inattention to national security and probably 9/11 as well!
We almost faced the same thing in the US, if Kerry and his socialist goons had stolen the election.
Spain has six formally established mosques and 220 to 230 small, informal ones, according to the Islamic Commission of Spain, which is recognized by the government as the official voice of Spain's Muslims.
The proposal to finance mosques has stoked opposition from conservatives. An editorial in the center-right newspaper El Mundo said it was a mistake because Islam "does not defend tolerance." Counterterrorism specialists, however, have backed the idea. Jesús Núñez Villaverde, director of the Institute for the Study of Conflicts and Humanitarian Action, a research organization, told Parliament recently that Spain must find a way to dilute the presence of "fundamentalist religious expression that is financed through its own channels, and for which we have not one single instrument of influence, contact or association."
Call me mad if you must, but it might actually work. Recall, if you will, just WHY religeous-based schools and charities decline government money. Because such swag always comes with compromising strings attached. Depending on how it's played this might amount to a takeover/buyout of spanish islam. If the govt demands approval of this, that and whatever along with their subsidy you might find islam going the way of the C of E and the Swedish Lutheran Church. At least that is what they are apparently hoping.
Interesting point, but this is different. Mosques - Islamic ideology centers - will take the money but not the strings attached.
Amidst the secularism of Old Europe islam has been thriving...your argument does not hold up.
As for not having any influence or contact with the islamics, how about expulsion once again. Spaniards were brave and clever enough to do it in 1492, they should be brave enough to do it today!
You couldn't have said it better. Spain voted for the Dhummi plan, now they get the Dhummi plan. Just get used to looking down and bending over often.
Don't worry, the Orthodox East will bring back Christianity, killing the sons and daughters of past Christians who are to become Islamic fanatics. But atleast the grand kids will be back in Church.
Can you imagine what it will be like to be a kid reading the history of all this sh't thirty years from now? Hopefully we (conservatives) will have righted the boat by then and the few liberals that are left will be going "what were we thinking???".
Don't worry, between the Eastern Orthodox eastern Europe and Catholic Poland, Slovania and Croatia and Hungary, Islam is far from winning Europe. A new Crusade of monumental proportions will be required, rivers of blood are to be spilled, but Islam will be driven out and with hope this time all the way back to a last desperate stand around their devil black box.
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