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The "gnutellafication" of the NYT, CBS and MSM < Experts and Gate-keepers Dethroned >
Emerging Church ^ | 11/12/03 | Editors

Posted on 11/16/2004 9:33:18 AM PST by Helms

Postmodernism and the "gnutellafication" of the mainstream media.

what is postmodernism?

well, there are many answers to the question, coming from the vantage points of architecture, philosophy, music, sociology, literature, and theology, so the definitions are multi -phasic and nuanced.

"postmodernity" refers to a cultural stasis or "state of being," while "postmodernism" references cultural currents or streams circulating within the stasis.

in any case, the notion of postmodernity arose out of the matrix of western civilization and its attendent cultural and philosophical foundations, which presuppose the prior "pre-modern" and "modern" dispensations.

the cultural shift from the modern to the postmodern began in the 1960's. (* ) the famed political economist francis fukuyama described the shift from the modern to postmodern era as the great disruption.

anyone born after 1960 is "native" to this era. other generations are naturalized citizens. so, whether native or naturalized, we all are part of the postmodern world.

in a large nutshell, some key characteristics of postmodernity include:

skepticism about or outright rejection of enlightenment assumptions

the rise of globalization & pluralism

the "gnutellafication" of authority and knowledge

the customization and subjectification of truth

in other words, "gone with the wind, meet "the wind done gone." in all fields of endeavor, previously closed canons are being opened up, and new gifts are being added to the mix.

in other words, in the postmodern culture,the roles and functions of all "experts" and "gate-keepers" are being reduced or re-directed.

the customization & subjectification of truth means that culturally supported meta-narratives and broad-cast notions of truth have been defacto de-constructed.

postmodern truths are concepts that are narrow-cast, self-discovered and authoritative only for the person seeking them.

the modern creedal orientation of "we believe, "has been subverted by the postmodern creedal orientation summed up by sheryl crow in her song which proclaims "if it makes you happy, it can't be half bad."

Cite: http://www.emergingchurch.org/postmodern.html


TOPICS: Announcements; Philosophy
KEYWORDS: derida; diversity; liberalmedia; multiculturalism; pc; postmodernism
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1 posted on 11/16/2004 9:33:19 AM PST by Helms
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To: Helms

Thanks. Interesting stuff.

Focus on the Family Institute (a college semester for university students from around the nation) has emphasized this for several years now.

The Church worldwide is like a huge ship. It doesn't turn on a dime, like a cigarette boat. But once it starts going, it's hard to stop.


2 posted on 11/16/2004 9:55:28 AM PST by ColoCdn (Truth never dies)
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To: Helms

Meme Warfare BUMP.

What does 'gnutellafication' mean?


3 posted on 11/16/2004 10:14:32 AM PST by WOSG
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To: WOSG
What does 'gnutellafication' mean?

Could this be it?


4 posted on 11/16/2004 10:17:49 AM PST by Godzilla ( I don't know what your problem is, but I'll bet it's hard to pronounce.)
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To: Helms
Never forget the relativism: a denying of truth, objectivity, etc. due to their ideological character.

The human knowledge is a social and ideological product, according to postmodernists. Textualism, constructivism and power to knowledge relation would, probably, serve as key principles of postmodernism.

I could way off the mark here - don't have enough knowledge but I'd say all they achieve is opposing ideology to ideology. The fact that they also assume that the current sum of knowledge as an absolute doesn't help either.

5 posted on 11/16/2004 10:32:47 AM PST by aliquis
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To: Godzilla
It could also have something to do with a Gnutella music site (peer-to-peer, no servers?)
6 posted on 11/16/2004 10:34:51 AM PST by aliquis
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To: aliquis
Err... sorry
I could way off the mark here - don't have enough knowledge but I'd say all they achieve is opposing ideology to ideology. The fact that they also assume that the current sum of knowledge as an absolute doesn't help either.

I could be way off the mark here - don't have enough knowledge but I'd say all they achieve is opposing ideology to ideology. The fact that they also assume that the current sum of knowledge as is an absolute doesn't help either.

7 posted on 11/16/2004 10:40:19 AM PST by aliquis
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To: Godzilla
Well, as for the first part:

GNU's not Unix
 GNU's not Unix
  GNU's not Unix
   GNU's not Unix
    GNU's not Unix

8 posted on 11/16/2004 11:51:45 AM PST by Lexinom (ANYBODY BUT ARLEN)
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To: WOSG

Gnutella

From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia.

Gnutella (pronounced with a silent "g") is a distributed software project to create a true peer-to-peer file sharing network, without a central server.

Contents

History

The first client was developed by Justin Frankel and Tom Pepper of Nullsoft, a division of AOL, in early 2000. On March 14, the program was made available for download on Nullsoft's servers. The event was prematurely announced on Slashdot, and thousands downloaded the program that day. The source code was to be released later, supposedly under the GNU General Public License (GPL).

The next day, AOL stopped the availability of the program over legal concerns and restrained Nullsoft from doing any further work on the project. This did not stop Gnutella; after a few days the protocol had been reverse engineered, and compatible open source clones started showing up. This parallel development of different clients by different groups remains the modus operandi of Gnutella development today.

The Gnutella network would be a fully distributed alternative to semi-centralized systems like FastTrack (KaZaA) or centralized systems like Napster. Initial popularity of the network was spurred on by Napster's threatened legal demise in early 2001. This growing surge in popularity revealed the limits of the initial protocol's scalabilty. In early 2001, variations of the protocol (implemented first in closed source clients) allowed scalabilty to improve somewhat. Instead of treating every user as client and server, some users were now treated as "ultrapeers", routing search requests and responses for users connected to them.

This allowed the network to grow in popularity. In late 2001, the Gnutella client LimeWire, which had driven much of the protocol's development, was released as open source. In February, 2002, Morpheus, a commercial file sharing group, abandoned its FastTrack-based peer-to-peer software and released a new client based on the open source Gnutella client Gnucleus.

Sometimes the word "Gnutella" refers not to a particular project or particular piece of software, but to the open protocol used by various clients. Since new clients are under development in various locations, and since a new protocol is apparently on the way too, it is hard to say what the word 'Gnutella' will mostly stand for in the future.

The name is a word play on GNU and Nutella. Supposedly, Frankel and Pepper ate a lot of nutella working on the original project, and they were going to use the GNU GPL license on the finished program. Gnutella is not associated with the GNU project; see GNUnet for the GNU project's equivalent.

How it works

To envision how Gnutella works, imagine a large circle of users (called nodes), who each have Gnutella client software. The client software on the initial use must bootstrap and find at least one of those other nodes. Different methods have been used for this, including a pre-existing list of possibly working node addresses shipped with the software, using Gwebcache sites on the web to find nodes, as well as using IRC to find nodes. Chances are at least one node (call it B) will work. Once it has connected, node B will send node A its own list of working nodes. Node A will try to connect to the nodes it was shipped with, as well as nodes it receives from other nodes, until it reaches a certain quota, usually user-specifiable. It will only connect to that many nodes, but it keeps the nodes it has not yet tried. (it discards ones that it tries but did not work.)

Now, when user A wants to do a search, it sends the request to each node it is actively connected to. It is possible that some of them will no longer work, in which case user A tries to connect to the nodes it has saved as backups. The number of actively connected nodes for user A is usually quite small (around 5), so each node then forwards the request to all the nodes it is connected to, and they in turn forward the request, and so on. In theory, the request will eventually find its way to every user on the Gnutella network.

If a search request turns up a result, the node that had the result contacts the searcher (whose IP address was included with the search request) directly. They negotiate the file transfer and the transfer proceeds. If more than one copy of the same file is found, the searcher can perform a "swarm" download - download pieces of the file from different nodes. This results in increased download rates.

Finally, when user A disconnects, the client software saves the list of nodes that it was actively connected to, and that it was keeping as a backup, for use next time it connects.

In practice, searching on the Gnutella network is often slow and unreliable. Each node is a regular computer user; as such, they are constantly connecting and disconnecting, so the network is never completely stable. Since individual users' connections are likely to be slow, it can take a very long time for a search request to traverse the entire network (which averages around 100,000 nodes at any time).

The real benefit of having Gnutella so decentralized is to make it very difficult to shut the network down. Unlike Napster, where the entire network relied on the central server, Gnutella cannot be shut down by shutting down any one node. As long as there are at least two users, Gnutella will continue to exist.

Protocol features and extensions

Gnutella operates on a query flooding protocol. The outdated Gnutella version 0.4 network protocol employs five different packet types, namely

  • ping: discover hosts on network
  • pong: reply to ping
  • query: search for a file
  • query hit: reply to query
  • push: download request (for firewalled servents)

These are mainly concerned with searching the Gnutella network. File transfers are handled using HTTP.

The development of the Gnutella protocol is currently led by the GDF (Gnutella Developer Forum). Many protocol extensions have been and are being developed by the software vendors and free Gnutella developers of the GDF. These extensions include intelligent query routing, SHA-1 checksums, query hit transmission via UDP, querying via UDP, dynamic queries via TCP, file transfers via UDP, XML meta data, source exchange a.k.a "the download mesh" and parallel downloading in slices (swarming).

There are efforts to finalize these protocol extensions in the Gnutella 0.6 specification at the Gnutella protocol development website. The Gnutella 0.4 standard, although being still the latest protocol specification since all extensions only exist as proposals so far, is outdated. In fact, it is hard to impossible to connect today with the 0.4 handshake.

The Gnutella protocol remains under development and in spite of attempts to make a clean break with the complexity inherited from the old Gnutella 0.4 and to design a clean new message architecture (see Gnutella2), it is still the most successful, openly developed file-sharing protocol to date.

Clients

Some popular Gnutella clients are

See also


9 posted on 11/16/2004 11:52:41 AM PST by Helms
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To: Godzilla
before

after

10 posted on 11/16/2004 11:58:28 AM PST by evets (God bless president George W. Bush)
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To: evets

Bit torrent technology is even better, imho, though I understand it is focused on the very large files.


11 posted on 11/16/2004 6:08:13 PM PST by Petronski (Okay, so today I *am* cranky.)
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To: Helms; ELS; Liz; NYer; Aquinasfan; narses; thor76; Land of the Irish; AAABEST; ninenot; ...

The term "postmodern" was hijacked by cabals of kooky Marxists when they noticed conservative and Christian thinkers using it to signify the collapse the ideologies of progress, the Enlightenment, the goofy secular humanism of modernity, and the shallow liberalism dominating the cultural elite. The End of the Modern World was the title of a book written by a conservative Catholic writer, Romano Guardini, in the 1940s.

What has come to be known as "postmodernism" is just a very bizarre, convaluted style of repackaging epistemological skepticism and moral relativism. The dissembling nihilism of this movement does very little to advance genuine knowledge. The flagrant omission of acknowledging the earlier conservative and Christian uses of the term "postmodern" suggest dishonesty or scholarly illiteracy.

Hence, the distortive use of the term "postmodernism" is worthy of one of our Twilight Zone awards for excessive left-wing kookiness.

12 posted on 11/17/2004 1:32:45 PM PST by HowlinglyMind-BendingAbsurdity
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To: HowlinglyMind-BendingAbsurdity

Moral Relativist Shock Troops----the usual suspects including: abortion-worshipping Feminazis, the fully fornicating Playboy-Cosmo faction, secular humanists
who despise Christians, the ACLU-Christian baiters, Planned Parenthood and the population control cabal, the anti-family idealogues, aided and abetted by (1) a compliant liberal media,(2) academia which inculcates the Nation's youth with the idealogy, and, last, but not least (3) Hollywarped---stealth Christian-haters---who proselytize audiences without their knowledge or consent.


13 posted on 11/17/2004 2:37:52 PM PST by Liz (The man who establishes the reputation of rising at dawn, can sleep til noon.)
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To: Helms

I think these guys wrote an article to show off the new word they came up with. :P


14 posted on 11/17/2004 2:39:38 PM PST by Constantine XIII
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To: Timesink; martin_fierro; reformed_democrat; Loyalist; =Intervention=; PianoMan; GOPJ; ...
Media Schadenfreude and Media Shenanigans PING
15 posted on 11/17/2004 9:25:25 PM PST by weegee (WE FOUGHT ZOGBYISM November 2, 2004 - 60 Million Voters versus 60 Minutes - BUSH WINS!!!)
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To: Helms; weegee; Jim Robinson; Ernest_at_the_Beach; Shermy; PhilDragoo; EdReform; SierraWasp; ...

-- the "gnutellafication" of authority and knowledge. On the Internet the music swapping system Gnutella not only cut out the music industry middlemen (a la Napster) but also cut out all "central servers." in other words, in the postmodern culture,the roles and functions of all "experts" and "gate-keepers" are being reduced or re-directed."

Post WWII, the gate keepers of knowledge and protocol of an organization controlled that organization and organizations across America and around the world.

When computers came on the scene, they grabbed control of the process and protocols. The same gate keepers expanded their span of control to over see data processing. So even with the new technology, they still controlled the information flows up and down and the protocols to using it.

In the late 1980's and early 1990's pcs became available to people outside this chain of command and protocol. Salesmen and front line managers in corporations bought their own PCs and went on the internet to communicate and exchange data and knowledge. Pastors, ministers and Priests did the same at the local level. This was replicated across America with the exception of the Not News industries posing as News Industries.

By the end of the 1990's the gate keepers of knowledge and protocol were losing control across our nation.

Jim Robinson and others entered into this derailment of central control of news and protocols of dispensing/controlling news. In the late 1990's and early 2000 years.

During the 2000 election the conservative internet sites led by Free Republic had begun the process of taking the control of news release and shaping of news from the MSM.

Free Republic was one of the front line warriors in preventing the attempted coup of the Floriduh election by the MSM and the Gorons.

Later we defeated the Enviral Whackos who wanted to rurally cleanse thousands of ranchers and farmers in the Klamath Basin to protect a bottom sucking/stinking fish. That was the first major defeat of the enviral nazis in America.

We have seen the ability and power of Free Republic re "gnutellafication" of the MSM reach new levels this year and in the election.

We were instrumental in helping the Swift Vets hitting the road and gaining financial clout to help defeat Kerry. The Swift Vets were the poster guys of "gnutellafication" Komrade Kerry's Kamp, the DNC and the left wing attacks on GW and on the Swift Vets.

Free Republic ripped the guts out of the lies that CBS was pushing after a Freeper identified how CBS committed document fraud. Conservative blog sites jumped on that "gnutellafication" of CBS and helped to make fools of them.

Free Republic helped to destroy the October Surprise from the NY Slimes and CBS.

"gnutellafication" of the MSM is good for America, republicans and for the side of truth. The good freepers are part of that "gnutellafication" process. The brown shirted trolls try to derail us 24/7, as they and their masters know the liberals to succeed must control the release and spin of news to suit their agendas. We are not allowing that to happen.


16 posted on 11/17/2004 10:24:33 PM PST by Grampa Dave (FNC/ABCNNBCBS & the MSM fishwraps are the Rathering Fraudcasters of America!)
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To: Grampa Dave
"Pravda" doesn't like the public to know that their "truth" is all lies. Goebbels would have been proud to have a non-nationalized media so singular in focus at pushing party rhetoric and disseminating fabricated smears on the opposition.
17 posted on 11/17/2004 10:32:19 PM PST by weegee (WE FOUGHT ZOGBYISM November 2, 2004 - 60 Million Voters versus 60 Minutes - BUSH WINS!!!)
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To: weegee

As we make fools of the MSM and reduce its effectiveness, this will mean even larger defeats for the rats in 2006 and into the future.


18 posted on 11/17/2004 10:41:25 PM PST by Grampa Dave (FNC/ABCNNBCBS & the MSM fishwraps are the Rathering Fraudcasters of America!)
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To: Grampa Dave; Fedora; dk/coro; Cincinatus' Wife; Travis McGee; ExSoldier; ALOHA RONNIE; ...

Grampa Dave has some very interesting comments at the post above about the "gnutellafication" of authority and knowledge created by Internet applications such as Web and E-mail. He argues that just like the FAX machines and photocopiers behind the Iron Curtain, the Web and sites like FR have made it much harder for the apparatchiks and arabists to manipulate our media without constraint.

Just when we thought Democracy was doomed, our Republic was saved by an innovation created by the DARPA. Did y'all know that TCP/IP was invented to help defense sites communicate with each other during nuclear warfare? The Dems went nuclear and we managed to outwit them anyway. Once again, Defense Department R&D saved the day.


19 posted on 11/17/2004 10:46:16 PM PST by risk
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To: risk

I agree. Of course by the same token the Internet has also made it easier to distribute enemy propaganda, which we must be vigilant against just as we are against the traditional media.


20 posted on 11/17/2004 10:59:48 PM PST by Fedora
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To: Fedora

There's been some mighty tough propaganda to crack. We don't always do enough about it here. I think especially the gnarly stuff is ignored because it just seems to irrelevant to us. Then I meet somebody on the street who repeats it to me in a half-believing way and I'm stunned. We should counter anything we find.


21 posted on 11/17/2004 11:10:28 PM PST by risk
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To: risk; Grampa Dave
I think that we are usiing the post-modern tools but not subscribing to the philosphy.

As I understand it, post-modern thinking is that there is no truth, no belief system better than another (or none), no real morality. Authority is in the hands of the individual.

I believe that the ultimate authority is God, there is a definite truth, and that traditional Western civilization is better than any other. This most definitely is NOT post-modern thinking.

However, I am happy to use whatever tools are available to promote my point of view.

22 posted on 11/18/2004 1:44:22 AM PST by Miss Marple
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To: Helms
summed up by sheryl crow in her song which proclaims "if it makes you happy, it can't be half bad."

Hey, all right!

Then she isn't upset at the results of the recent elections, considering how many of us are so ecstatically happy at not just the results, but at being able to listen to liberals wail like babies who lost their lollipop?

Downright generous of you, Sheryl...

23 posted on 11/18/2004 2:02:10 AM PST by fire_eye (Socialism is the opiate of academia.)
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To: Miss Marple; Grampa Dave; Fedora; nopardons
I think that we are usiing the post-modern tools but not subscribing to the philosphy.

Except to postmodernists themselves, there's nothing inherently "post-modern" about the Internet. Forget the fact that hyperlinks distract us, and no one seems to have the final authority on the facts. The story of Babylon suggests that we are forever doomed to argue, often in different languages about everything. That doesn't mean absolute truth doesn't exist, or that one way isn't the best way of doing something.

In other words, just because it has billions of textual web pages (text is a favorite word to postmodernists), and features as many opinions or more, does not mean that it necessarily leads in a direction of relativism in and of itself.

And cultural relativism and postmodernist thinking are indeed linked. In classrooms across the western world, there are swamis profuring the notion that notions of right and wrong emerge strictly from our external culture.

I did a quick search and found a Postmodern FAQ. There is discussion of "narrative," "modernity," and sundry other central ideas. The alt.postmodern FAQ looks even better, but it's more wordy. Get used to "wordy" around post-structuralists and post-modernists. Yes, modernism was structural. In other words it was all about power. Following rules is tedious, right?

In any case, I want to encourage a counter-movement to postmodernism. Just because the truth is sometimes hard to know, does not mean that it doesn't exist. Just because multiple cultures do things differently does not mean that one isn't better than the other.

Words like freedom, love, life, and property must mean something concrete. Chains and slavery await those who dispute their meaning. Isn't it time to purge our state universities of Marxist and post-structuralist malarkey by attrition? We're just confusing our children. It's costing us more and more money just to bewilder them. (I'm not saying that post-structuralism should be banned -- I'm saying that it shouldn't be taught like a de facto religion.)

24 posted on 11/18/2004 3:12:23 AM PST by risk
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To: risk
I agree. I have been exposed to post-modernism through my daughter's education at an art college. She is a very sincere Christian, and she had many bad days when confronted with some of the thinking there. She thankfully got her degree with her faith still intact.

Post-modernism in art is one of my pet peeves. It is simply NOT art, but rather any old piece of junk with a "story" to explain it. It is bunkum.

I agree there needs to be a counter to post-modernism. I don't quite know how it should be done, but I certainly support you in this endeavor.

25 posted on 11/18/2004 3:30:14 AM PST by Miss Marple
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To: risk

The impact of the internet combined with the ability for the average American to own a pc and participate on sites like Free Republic is in its toddler stage.

Besides political "gnutellafication", we are seeing "gnutellafication" in our organized religions, the financial world, and expanding our buying power. There are other areas where the "gnutellafication" impact is or will be as big as the "gnutellafication" of the MSM.


26 posted on 11/18/2004 6:02:08 AM PST by Grampa Dave (FNC/ABCNNBCBS & the MSM fishwraps are the Rathering Fraudcasters of America!)
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To: Miss Marple

"I think that we are usiing the post-modern tools but not subscribing to the philosphy."

Exactly! As usual the writer looked for a nice shoebox to label and put us into. So he chose post-modern.

You final part of your reply is a better summation of what is going on:

"I believe that the ultimate authority is God, there is a definite truth, and that traditional Western civilization is better than any other. This most definitely is NOT post-modern thinking.

"However, I am happy to use whatever tools are available to promote my point of view."


27 posted on 11/18/2004 6:08:23 AM PST by Grampa Dave (FNC/ABCNNBCBS & the MSM fishwraps are the Rathering Fraudcasters of America!)
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To: Fedora

but... one of the nice features of a messageboard format -especially one in which one cannot edit or delete comments- is that the record is clear and easily accessed by any user, and the pool of users includes practical experts in just about any field you can name.
FR is very good at self-policing for agitprop - from the Left AND the Right.
One of the big differences between this site and Kos or DU: FReepers work for a living across diverse fields; DUmmies seem to be professional students or folks working in fields in which perception is more important than practical function.


28 posted on 11/18/2004 9:27:22 AM PST by King Prout (tagline under reconstruction)
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To: Grampa Dave; Miss Marple; risk
Grampa-

I could not agree more. Postmodernism is a bit different from the actual condition or environment of Postmodernity which involves the advanced use of technology, ie the Internet. Interesting that the MS part of MSNBC failed to monopolize.

Miss Marple was correct in saying that Postmodern philosophies have been undone or confronted by Postmodern tools, ie., the Internet

29 posted on 11/18/2004 9:53:10 AM PST by Helms
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To: HowlinglyMind-BendingAbsurdity
Well done.

In actual usage, "postmodern" is what pretentious gays at lunch in Manhatten say when they mean "fad".

30 posted on 11/18/2004 9:55:55 AM PST by Taliesan (The power of the State to do good is the power of the State to do evil.)
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To: risk
"Except to postmodernists themselves, there's nothing inherently "post-modern" about the Internet"

Postmodernism is by definition altered by time and space. The Internet alters significantly time and space. Globalization such as India's prominence in software is a result of miles of fiber layed in the 90's and running under the Ocean.

Time and space are the main perspectives by which Postmodernism is defined.

31 posted on 11/18/2004 9:58:35 AM PST by Helms
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To: fire_eye
summed up by sheryl crow in her song which proclaims "if it makes you happy, it can't be half bad."

HA! and James Taylor and Carly Simon at Kerry's Depression Election.

32 posted on 11/18/2004 10:03:16 AM PST by Helms
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To: Taliesan; Helms

The End of the Modern World
Written by Romano Guardini
Foreword by Richard John Neuhaus
Introduction by Frederick D. Wilhelmsen

"An extended inquiry into the nature of the modern age, as well as an historical, philosophical, and theological analysis of modernity's prospects in the next millennium. This expanded edition includes the original text of The End of the Modern World, as well as the entirety of its explicit sequel, Power and Responsibility. Guardini analyzes modern man's conception of himself in the world, and examines the nature and use of power. It is the principle of individual responsibility that weaves both works into a seamless, comprehensive, and compelling moral statement. Guardini tirelessly argues that human beings are responsible moral agents, possessed of free will and answerable to God and their fellow man."

http://www.isi.org/books/bookdetail.aspx?id=27895ed1-7061-4fd3-ae71-87012087a92c

What They're Saying...

"Guardini's analysis...still has resonance, because many of the problems he diagnoses about modernity have not been overcome. Fears of nuclear destruction and totalitarianism may have abated, but fears about the destruction of the planet's ecology by the forces which the modern age unleashed, and anxiety about the direction of mass society, have grown."

Times Literary Supplement

"Guardini's book is more than a harsh look at our diseased condition, and quite the opposite of a lament for times past. It is an urgent call to holiness, an inspiring challenge, and an exceptionally important book for a new millennium."

First Things

"Guardini's book...stands as a fascinating portrait of the modern contradiction..."

The Chesterton Review

"Much of Guardini's analysis, by now forty years old, is prophetic."

New Oxford Review

33 posted on 11/18/2004 10:21:36 AM PST by HowlinglyMind-BendingAbsurdity
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To: HowlinglyMind-BendingAbsurdity
Thanks- some say that the pinnacle of "modernism" was the Beatles first Madison Square Garden circa 1963. By 1968 I believe we were entering into the Postmodern period. So between 1963-1968 somethings happened to transition us.
34 posted on 11/18/2004 11:53:41 AM PST by Helms
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To: HowlinglyMind-BendingAbsurdity
I like Wilhelmsen. Ever read his Metaphysics of Love?
35 posted on 11/18/2004 12:56:25 PM PST by cornelis
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To: Helms
outright rejection of enlightenment assumptions

In this the postmodern is on track. Modernism was found to be a sham, because it rated reason to high. What, after all was so enlightening about the Enlightenment? That they held to keys to the golden grail of objectivity. It's too bad that those rejecting that assumption made the pendulum swing to rate reason too low.

You know there is one area where enlightenment assumptions still have a popular foothold: in science. On the other hand, the implications for law is profound.

36 posted on 11/18/2004 1:03:23 PM PST by cornelis
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To: Constantine XIII
I think these guys wrote an article to show off the new word they came up with.

They should have passed a grammar class first.

37 posted on 11/18/2004 1:03:36 PM PST by lewislynn (The meaning of life can be described in one word...Grandchildren)
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To: cornelis
I do believe that the Will is over Reason and that explains the whacked world we live in. There are those whose will to believe is overruled by his/her reason.
38 posted on 11/18/2004 2:28:05 PM PST by Helms
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To: cornelis
What, after all was so enlightening about the Enlightenment? That they held to keys to the golden grail of objectivity. "

Then infection by the German virus:

Kant, then Schopenhauer and the neo-Kantians, especially Fitche turned to a subjectivity that bordered on solipsism. Then Nietzsche-Heidegger and that was all she wrote.

39 posted on 11/18/2004 2:37:10 PM PST by Helms
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To: Godzilla

Good stuff -- LOTS of calories though.


40 posted on 11/18/2004 4:31:09 PM PST by BenLurkin (Big government is still a big problem.)
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To: HowlinglyMind-BendingAbsurdity

You're Twilight Zone post is well said.

I have a bit of a problem with the author's nomenclature. Modernism as chronicled in Paul Johnson's Modern Times is the history of modernism, that is to say, relativism, in all fields of human endeavor, politics, law, psychology, painting, music, literature, architecture, etc., etc.

Postmodernism was a rejection of modernism and a return to classical forms, at least in architecture. There were some beautiful neoclassical buildings built in the80's under the guise of postmodernism. Now, this guy uses the term postmodernism to describe the nihilistic deconstructionism of late modernism.

It's all so confusing. In any case, they're a-holes, no matter the label. Stanley Fish, Mark Tushnet. Uggh.

Also, the term "gnutellafication" is a rather inelegant neologism, but I get and endorse the point. But we are in serious need of a better word than that.


41 posted on 11/18/2004 6:39:26 PM PST by Buckhead
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To: Grampa Dave
The net is a neutral communications medium that is used for good and ill. You have to get down to cases to figure out which is which. When it comes to the MSM, the internet has enabled the informed yeoman citizen to do something more than just yell at the tv set when the MSM starts talking that jive bs. The yeoman citizen can now do what the framers contemplated they should do. Consider how apt is this quote from John Adams' Dissertation on The Canon and Feudal Law, from 1765:

Care has been taken that the art of printing should be encouraged, and that it should be easy and cheap and safe for any person to communicate his thoughts to the public. And you, Messieurs printers, whatever the tyrants of the earth may say of your paper, have done important service to your country by your readiness and freedom in publishing the speculations of the curious. The stale, impudent insinuations of slander and sedition, with which the gormandizers of power have endeavored to discredit your paper, are so much the more to your honor; for the jaws of power are always opened to devour, and her arm is always stretched out, if possible, to destroy the freedom of thinking, speaking, and writing. And if the public interest, liberty, and happiness have been in danger from the ambition or avarice of any great man, whatever may be his politeness, address, learning, ingenuity, and, in other respects, integrity and humanity, you have done yourselves honor and your country service by publishing and pointing out that avarice and ambition.

Kind of makes the hair on the back of your neck stand up, doesn't it?

Knowledge is power, and the MSM formerly had oligarchical control over its acquisition, dissemination and interpretation. Well, thanks to the web, we have equal if not greater access to knowledge than they do. We have our collective knowledge and expertise, massively parallel investigating and fact checking, and a real time information marketplace that weeds out fact from fiction. So, instead of yelling at the tv set, we post it. And, there are enough of us that it really has an effect. We're not as dumb as they think, they are not as smart as they think, and we are not just going to get on all fours and say "Please Sir, may I have another?" while they feed us crap and expect us to like it.

42 posted on 11/18/2004 7:23:54 PM PST by Buckhead
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To: Helms; Miss Marple; Fedora; Grampa Dave
Postmodernism is by definition altered by time and space. The Internet alters significantly time and space.

These are popular translations of the concept of post-modernism and post-structuralist analysis, but they really have no bearing on the process of studying text and culture in terms of those methodologies.

The Internet is post-modern in the minds of some of its fans. It is post-modern in the eyes of popular pundits, but that's about it. The Internet does not alter space and time at all, not on its own. It doesn't change the laws of physics.

We can't equate the impact of media such as fiber optic data transmission lines, with the choice of cultural analysis techniques used by our top educational institutions. Likewise, encountering the "global village" (created by radio telegraph, ocean cable telegraph, satellite TV and the Internet) has preceded this culturally relativistic scholarship. But that doesn't mean that we had to react the way we did on an intellectual level. And many didn't. Scholars like Foucault and Derrida simply made a big splash because they came up with such interesting perspectives. In many ways, their ideas are useful.

The problem is that unchecked, post-modernism and post-structuralism have been applied where they did not belong. The product is the natural undisciplined response: cultural relativism. It could have produced the opposite! For example, by definition a culture that has lost its power and influence in the 20th century or before should be abandoned. Why would we be interested in any third world culture other than for historic purposes? Yet the irrational fans of post-structuralism praise the east and its "oppressed glories." Edward Said uses post-structuralism to shred exclusionary western "narrative" and "marginalism."

But why shouldn't we exclude savagery, cannibalism, idol worship, tribalism, and oligarchy? The west is the best. From Japan to Buenos Ares, western civilization is king. Why? Because of truth. Truth, law, and a reliance on the sovereignty of the individual are the power behind our success. One can argue that these precepts emerged from Christianity, but they are also inherent in the human being. Doctrine may reflect these facets of our nature and visa versa.

Whatever the case, applied post-structuralism is like a cancer eating our body politic. There is nothing wrong with filtering culture with post-structural analysis as long as it is just seen as one lens for examining truth. But undisciplined or nihilistic thinkers have come to believe that it is a tool for destroying the west. Freedom can't exist where the concept of liberty is obscured by psychobabble. Psychobabble is going to destroy us. The truth shall set us free!

43 posted on 11/18/2004 8:35:52 PM PST by risk
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To: Buckhead

"Care has been taken that the art of printing should be encouraged, and that it should be easy and cheap and safe for any person to communicate his thoughts to the public. And you, Messieurs printers, whatever the tyrants of the earth may say of your paper, have done important service to your country by your readiness and freedom in publishing the speculations of the curious. The stale, impudent insinuations of slander and sedition, with which the gormandizers of power have endeavored to discredit your paper, are so much the more to your honor; for the jaws of power are always opened to devour, and her arm is always stretched out, if possible, to destroy the freedom of thinking, speaking, and writing. And if the public interest, liberty, and happiness have been in danger from the ambition or avarice of any great man, whatever may be his politeness, address, learning, ingenuity, and, in other respects, integrity and humanity, you have done yourselves honor and your country service by publishing and pointing out that avarice and ambition. "

"Kind of makes the hair on the back of your neck stand up, doesn't it?"

Yes, it does.

Knowledge is power, and the MSM formerly had oligarchical control over its acquisition, dissemination and interpretation. Well, thanks to the web, we have equal if not greater access to knowledge than they do. We have our collective knowledge and expertise, massively parallel investigating and fact checking, and a real time information marketplace that weeds out fact from fiction. So, instead of yelling at the tv set, we post it. And, there are enough of us that it really has an effect. We're not as dumb as they think, they are not as smart as they think, and we are not just going to get on all fours and say "Please Sir, may I have another?" while they feed us crap and expect us to like it."

This paragraph makes my hair stand up on the back of my neck causes a big smile. We no longer have to take their bs, and as you proved, we can stop the dispensing of that bs.

Thanks for your comments.


44 posted on 11/18/2004 10:36:59 PM PST by Grampa Dave (FNC/ABCNNBCBS & the MSM fishwraps are the Rathering Fraudcasters of America!)
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To: HowlinglyMind-BendingAbsurdity
Good one:

What has come to be known as "postmodernism" is just a very bizarre, convaluted style of repackaging epistemological skepticism and moral relativism. The dissembling nihilism of this movement does very little to advance genuine knowledge. The flagrant omission of acknowledging the earlier conservative and Christian uses of the term "postmodern" suggest dishonesty or scholarly illiteracy.

Hence, the distortive use of the term "postmodernism" is worthy of one of our Twilight Zone awards for excessive left-wing kookiness.

45 posted on 11/19/2004 12:26:09 AM PST by GOPJ (M.Dowd...hits..like a bucket of vomit with Body Shop potpourri sprinked across the surface--Goldberg)
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To: Buckhead
Postmodernism was a rejection of modernism and a return to classical forms, at least in architecture. There were some beautiful neoclassical buildings built in the80's under the guise of postmodernism. Now, this guy uses the term postmodernism to describe the nihilistic deconstructionism of late modernism.

Absolutely correct. The architectural use is actually closer to what conservative and Christian thinkers meant by the passing of "modernity." Tom Wolfe's From Bauhaus to Our House was a humorous and satirical treatment of the excesses of architectural modernism and minimalism. When the fads no longer worked to hold aesthetic attention, it was necessary to return to elements from older forms - classical, Georgian, Federalist, Tudor, Gothic, etc. We're still in the "revivals" and "postmodern" synthetic experiments now. Although...outrageous examples of "modernist" architecture are still unloaded on the public -like LA's monstrous new cathedral.

I seem to recall that Arnold Toynbee uses the term "Post-Modern" in A Study of History. The political theorist and philosopher of history Eric Voegelin talks about "modernity" in his 1951-1952 book The New Science of Politics . Guardini had been writing similarly in the 1940s (The End of the Modern World). What "postmodern" tended to mean around that time was the collapse of the secular hubris of the modern age and many of its idols, particularly a belief in unending social progress centered on modern liberalism, the modern nation state, and the various classes who had placed their hopes on science and technology while abandoning Christianity. The "postmodern" was then the period of reconfiguration and the social and cultural processes at work at sorting out these issues.

How the term was hijacked to signify the bizarre ideologies of skepticism and relativism in literary criticism and cultural theory is a strange episode in the history of ideas. It leads to a great deal of incoherence and equivocation in academic discourse. For the most part it is a circular discourse which has meaning only for French literary Marxists and their internal dilemmas. How it became a dominant discourse and ideology in American academia is quite bizarre in the extreme, although it answers to certain liberal fantasies.

I should add that there is an internal contradiction involved in claiming that essential or foundationalist knowledge is impossible. The claim itself involves just such a metaphysical assertion - "I have certain knowledge that certain knowledge is impossible." I think Derrida even admitted the contradiction but seemed to think this was an even deeper and esoteric mystical insight. Bizarre.

None of the left-wing books I have seen from the movement even come close to the proper form for framing a scholarly discussion on the pros and cons of moral relativism and epistemological skepticism. They are exercises on rhetoric, propaganda, and literary allusions.

In terms of left-wing "postmodernism" as an ironist skepticism, John Kerry's "I actually voted for the war before I voted against it," is a good example. Derrida, Foucault, Lacan, Baudrillard, Habermas, Lyotard, Jameson, and Eagleton could each have written 700-page volumes explaining the hermeneutics and deep significance of that proclamation. Although perhaps Umberto Eco could do it more poetic and symbolic justice.


46 posted on 11/19/2004 3:02:14 AM PST by HowlinglyMind-BendingAbsurdity
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To: HowlinglyMind-BendingAbsurdity; risk; Helms; Grampa Dave

"I have certain knowledge that certain knowledge is impossible."

This is as old as the hills and is what separated the ancients from the moderns. So, three positions: ancient, modern, post-modern. My guess is that most people's laconic dismissal of French chic is not sufficient enough to qualify as modern or ancient.


47 posted on 11/19/2004 6:27:36 AM PST by cornelis
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To: risk; Miss Marple; Fedora; Grampa Dave; cornelis; Buckhead; GOPJ; HowlinglyMind-BendingAbsurdity
DAVID HARVEY, THE CONDITION OF POSTMODERNITY -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- David Harvey. THE CONDITION OF POSTMODERNITY: AN ENQUIRY INTO THE ORIGINS OF CULTURAL CHANGE. Cambridge, MA: Blackwell, 1990.

http://webpages.ursinus.edu/rrichter/harvey.html

ECONOMIC/FINANCIAL BASIS OF THE POSTMODERN: In the most general terms, Harvey may be said to argue that the many manifestations of postmodernity flow from the basic operation of capital. He sees the operation of capital as a constant in the history of the past two centuries; its essential influence in postmodernity thus makes postmodernity less than unique but rather a special case of culture in a line of development that he traces back to the mid-nineteenth century in Europe and America.

SPACE-TIME COMPRESSION: For Harvey the most important cultural change in the transformation from Fordism to flexible accumulation--and from modernity to postmodernity--was the change in the human experience of space and time (Part III). His Plate 3.1 (p.241) gives a graphic rendering of his main point. It shows four maps of the world in descending order of size:

1500-1840 ("best average speed of horse drawn coaches and sailing ships was 10 m.p.h.")

1850-1930 ("steam locomotives averaged 65 m.p.h. and steam ships averaged 36 m.p.h.")

1950s ("propeller aircraft 300-400 m.p.h.")

1960s ("jet passenger aircraft 500-700 m.p.h.").

These increasing speeds of travel illustrate that in each phase the sense of global space changed; and with a change in the sense of space came a correlative change in the sense of time. Harvey carries this obvious point into a penetrating presentation of the change in sensibility, a change in the sense of reality itself, accompanying the changes in travel speeds.

______________________________________________________________________________________________________________

Postmodernity changes our experience of space and time (e.g. in time – space compression, image-based society, globalization, ‘futures’ markets, etc.).

Time – space compression or the incredible shrinking world

Classical world - cosmic harmony, enduring values, present as the fulfillment of the past, history has already happened, the ancient world is complete, no significant elsewhere.

Medieval world - fixed cosmos and Christian orthodoxy – present misery ameliorated by promise of future heavenly paradise, no historical development, vague sense of elsewhere (Indies and China were otherwordly)

Renaissance world – exploration, expansion, secular world, new sciences, realism, men in search of earthly destiny.

Modern world – capitalism, futurism, mass production, time is money, urbanization, speed, the world grasped and mapped.

Postmodern world – globalization, post-industrial society, virtual forms of over-accumulation, time a commodity to be traded, distance ‘no object’, ‘instantaneous’ communication.

48 posted on 11/19/2004 7:40:10 AM PST by Helms
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To: Helms
Classical world . . . no significant elsewhere

Not for Socrates, it's still an aporia for Aristotle.

49 posted on 11/19/2004 7:58:22 AM PST by cornelis
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To: Helms
no historical development

In the West, Augustine and Bede had a strong historical consciousness, something unexpected from Augustine since he is considered platonist. vague sense of elsewhere

This is incorrect. The medieval world had a very strong sense of elsewhere as they followed the framework of Augustine's City of God.

50 posted on 11/19/2004 8:02:45 AM PST by cornelis
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