Skip to comments.Congressmen urge Bush to drop guest-worker plan
Posted on 11/17/2004 8:54:21 AM PST by Ron H.
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Absent as in very conspicuously absent!
Let me guess..when the flames start to fly, you'll be the first one pushing the abuse button.
I don't get it.
How does a plan that would give Mexican workers the opportunity and the tools to enter the country legally to work, be perceived by this guy as something that would encourage mexicans to "illegally enter the U.S.?"
I think you're painting with a pretty broad brush there. I personally know of several teenagers (the children of friends and neighbors) who work at fast food restaurants and at other jobs that pay minimum wage. As far as picking produce goes, most of that work is seasonal which requires a person to change jobs every 3-5 months and usually entails traveling from one part of the state to another (or even to neighboring states) to follow the crop harvesting season. Most Americans tend to like putting down roots in one place and have a full-time job year round.
By any chance, does this person's FReeper name start with a 'b' and end with a 'd'?
This man (Rep. Elton Gallegly) is getting a well deserved pat on the back from me for standing up for my rights as a citizen.
Congressmen Ed Royce is getting one too. Maybe I'll torment that P.O.S. Sanchez again...she's actually my new district.
Just a reminder to those who skip thru these articles without doing anything.
Your representatives will continue to stand up for your rights and your children...but you've got to let them know you have their backs. If there are people standing behind their efforts, opposing the Invader demonstrations, we can't lose.
If the only email messages I opened were negative, I wouldn't open them as much. Let's pass on a few "atta-boys"
Enough preaching, you guys are smart....or you wouldn't be here.
Here's the link, it's in my favorites.
3 years...that's 4 babies.
Then, once the first one is 18, he can sponsor his entire family.
You guys are driving me to drink.
Just when I've thought I'd seen it all. You had to go and break out the van seat picture.
"If you owned a business your primary objective is to make a profit. Ergo, you're going to duck our massive tax laws and regulations and hire illegals under the table."
So breaking the law is okay, so long as your goal is to make a profit? Tell me, when someone decides that the cost of cars is too high because of regulations and just steals yours, will you be so sanguine?
I think I finally figured it out: Jews, Hispanics and Walmart.
If I wasn't watching my property taxes go up by $50/month every year so as to pay for the increased demand on schools that illegals cause, I too would find this pro-illegal crapola quite comical.
Fast and loose with the "facts", aren't you?
Maybe, if I keep on looking, I'll actually find a reliable source.
Maybe you didn't know the difference between a 10-15% increase in attempted uses of false IDs to cross into the country at the San Ysidro point, and a "fourfold jump in illegal crossings"...is that it?
Or were you lying?
So what you're saying, in a roundabout way, is that we need an unambiguous term to refer to US citizens and "Americans" isn't it.
I've pinged the person who would definitively know the answer to this question.
Where the rubber meets the road is allowing illegal aliens in our country to apply for legal status. That will cause the flood to become a tsunami based on empirical evidence. Applicants must live in a place where they live legally to apply. That is my considered judgment, and as you might have noticed, I have considerably dissonance on this issue, have changed my opinion somewhat, and did not come to my present view lightly, and still believe that in the end, the Hispanic diaspora in the fullness of time will be to our advantage. But the system can take only so much shock at once, and yet stay alive to see the promised land.
How about this idea:
In order to receive welfare, current (American) citizens on welfare will be required to work these "jobs Americans dont want" in order to receive welfare.
Of course, the welfare pay-out would be less since the recipients will have a low income (5.15/hr).
That should take care of it.
Your argument is now blown out of the water.
Try again -
We are still not dealing with those already here.
We don't have the intestinal fortitude to round up possible Muslim extremists in the country, so in my honest opinion, we won't have the intestinal fortitude to round up millions of Mexican families and remove them from our soil.
So we will simply continue not to do anything about it because one option is not achievable, and we fear the consequences of another.
What we all seem to agree on is that doing nothing is not the right thing to do, yet, it seems that it's the only thing we manage to do effectively.
If you want to truly stop the flow, then we must help make there as palatable as here...then they'll just stay home.
But they are already here!
We all seem to have this notion that since they're not here legally, we can make believe that the system hasn't already absorbed the shock.
Yes, of course, improving the standard of living in Mexico is job one. Job two, is to squeeze out the illegals by squeezing in the legals on tours of duty who play by the rules, with maybe something more permanent down the line. Job three is to crack down on employers. Job four is to get enough personal to deal with the chaos on the Arizona border. We need to get control of who is here. It is not about the browning of the median color of America's skin.
My delta function is what would entail if Bush rewarded the current illegals by giving them illegal status. The flood as I said would become a tsunami, and under the Bush administration, the flood has become close to unmanageable fiscally in many border states. The numbers were once manageable. They are no longer. That is my opinion.
So, the solution as you see it is to remove ten million illegals living in the country, while simultaneously bringing in ten million trained replacement legal immigrants who are ready to take the jobs being vacated by the illegal immigrants.
And of course, no one will be crossing the borders illegally while we carry this restructuring of our workforce out, and the same majority of the US population who are now demanding a roll back in the number of immigrants being allowed into the country legally will have a change of heart, and get behind the increases in inbound legal immigrants.
I'm willing to bet large amounts of cash that any illegal immigrant who's been in the country longer than three years, and who was young enough to do so, now has American citizen anchor kids.
Imagine the outcry.
Economics is a powerful force. The jobs the illegals seek will be already filled, by those playing by the rules under a guest worker program, applying from Mexico et al (and not just Mexico, why should it just be Mexico?). The economic incentives will be diluted, and the illegals will get the message, and many will return home to start the process anew legally. Employers will have less incentive to cheat, and there will be a more robust stick for those that do. Identity swipe cards should be part of the equation. I am not sentimental about this. I want to the ship to tack - slowly - and I am patient.
Anchor babies is an issue. No doubt. It is insane that that is in the Constitution, intending something else, but that is the way it is. But am not suggesting a roundup, just an economic squeeze. The parents will get the message.
America is generous. If immigrants come in legally, on temporary work visas, and after a few tours of duty, with a clean record, are granted citizenship, they will be accepted, by all except the nativists, with open arms. After all, this is America. America needs to be renewed and energized by the aspiring and energetic from across the globe. Ameerica is an idea, not a race, or a tribe. That is what makes us special.
You continue to discuss means to stop aliens coming in illegally at some undefined point in the future, and are not discussing those aliens who are already here and working.
The ten million who are already here illegally are not seeking work, they already have work.
So in effect, the first order of business would be to dislodge illegal aliens already HERE and working, and replacing them with legal immigrants.
That's the part no one addresses.
You are correct. The illegals would tend to lose their jobs, at least temporarily.
Let's take the tomato canneries in Stanislaus County as an example.
They were nearly completely manned by Mexicans when I was there last year, and according to my hosts (the owners), they'd been working there for years...in many instances there were three generations of the same family who had been coming and working the harvest for decades.
They all had papers, whether those papers were legal or not no one knew.
These people will never be squeezed out, they would literally have to be removed by the INS, and replaced with legal immigrants.
I'll tell you one thing however...legal immigrants will not spend three generations working at the same tomato cannery.
So after removing all illegal immigrants, and replacing them with legal immigrants who would, and now I'm using empirical evidence, rise above working as field hands in a generation or so...who picks the tomatoes?
First you have to somehow identify the illegal aliens, and differentiate them from legal immigrants, in many instances working the same fields/restaurants/hotels.
As legal temporary workers learn the language, and get good reviews, they will be in demand for other temporary jobs off the fields, and slowly just move on up to citizenship. And who says that temporary workers will be just field hands? Heck, they might even work at Tyson's chicken plants in beautiful Arkansas, or make funiture in beautiful downtown Gardena in California. Maybe we can import some lawyers too, just to keep me agile, or some salesmen, to put some pressure on the nice little deal the Cubans have in Florida. Bring it on.
Swipe cards, and employer sanctions. Of course you and I know none of this will happen. We are just tripping out. The status quo ante will prevail, with slowly tightening borders, and maybe some large cheating employer roundups. So if you love the status quo, the future is yours. As I say, I am cautiously confident, that despite temporary insolvencies in border states, it will work out in the end. America is a very resilient and seductive place.
I don't want to intrude on your conversation, I just wanted to say that I was enjoying seeing a calm and reasoned discourse on this difficult issue. I wish this were the model for most.
Luis and I are good friends. That helps. Regards.
I wish there were a way to start threads like this where it could be discussed the way you two are handling it. There is probably no one on FR who thinks illegal immigration is a good thing but clear and realistic ideas on how to handle it are not common.
Here's what I think is the problem here.
There are TWO problems that everyone seems to lump as one.
Problem one are the ten plus million illegal aliens already in the country.
Problem two is the remaining millions that will come in if we let them.
Let's address problem one as it relates to Tancredo's proposal.
Imagine that your name is Pedro, and that you and your wife Elvira arrived in the US from El Salvador back in 1986, and decided to overstay your visa and set roots in beautiful Hialeah (blue collar immigrant city in NW Miami-Dade County).
You went out in the immigrant underground (yes, there is quite an extensive one here) and bought a couple of great sets of papers for yourself and Elvira, then you got a job at La Suave Shoe factory doing plant maintenance, and Elvira cleaning rooms at the Ramada Inn by the highway.
Eighteen years later, you have made it to maintenance supervisor at La Suave, and 'Vira now has a house cleaning business that employs half a dozen newly arrived immigrant women. Your kids, Luisito ;-), Silvia, and Anna are attending school, and Luisito wants to study architecture.
Along comes Tom Tancredo who tells you that you now need to give up your house, your job, your things, and your kid's future...everything you've built in the last eighteen years, and go back to El Salvador to apply for a possible limited legal re-entry and take a job ten steps back down the ladder IF you get back in, and IF someone will hire you...La Suave can't wait to see if you will come back.
If you don't go back voluntarily, you run the risk of getting caught and being deported, losing your house, your job, your things, and any possibility of a good future for your kids.
Would you volunteer to leave, or would you wait until they caught you?
IF you got caught.
Mark my words...we are either going to have to legalize a ton of the illegal aliens already here, or round them up and remove them by force...no half measures here.
Now, the border is a different issue altogether, and subject for another night.
Buzz off troll!
By the way...that legendary $10 tomato is nearly upon us, and the price wasn't driven up due to a spike in the wages of the pickers, but thanks to four hurricanes in one month treking over the nation's tomato supply in Florida.
You should have been a lawyer. Hard cases make bad policy. This family might qualify to enter legally under some visa as a rich enterpriser who "will" create jobs. Plus, I think this family would have qualified under previous amnesty programs. Were they asleep at the switch? I am open to certain exceptions, particulary if your hypo is of a tax paying Cuban American family, who may have voted for Bush illegally. :) But my real fear is to create a tsunami. When it comes to that, just mark me down as a no-nothing Tancredoite. Oh the horror!
When I was a teenager, my classmates were the berry pickers. Between the young people looking to earn gas and
date money and the legal immigrants, the fields and orchards should be pretty well taken care of. Instead of putting immigrants on SSI and foodstamps the minute they get into the country, let them work for their money. Also
prisoners can be a source of labor for road repair and farm
Your post is very good. It helps to clarify the situation. I think a fence and border guards are not the right answer. We have to eliminate the draw of easy jobs and welfare. The first step is to use biometric indentification and no longer use documents of any kind. Then make it both mandatory and very easy for employers to determine if an applicant is legal (using biometrics). Finally when you find a business employing illegals, shut them down and confiscate the business or take away the contractors license. Eventually the jobs for illegals will simply dry up. Once the volume of illegals drops, it will be more practical to carefully scrutinize every person crossing the border for terrorist ties. Illegals who are here and have been here for 5 or 10 years will lose their jobs and go home. Finally we need to change our constitution to agree with 95% of other countries and no longer give citizenship to children born to citizens of another country on our soil.
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