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Congressmen urge Bush to drop guest-worker plan
The Washington Times ^ | November 17, 2004 | Jerry Seper

Posted on 11/17/2004 8:54:21 AM PST by Ron H.

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To: inquest
And I can think of one moronic pro-illegal race-baiting sycophant on FR (who's wisely staying away from this thread) who's been claiming much the same thing of late.

Absent as in very conspicuously absent!

101 posted on 11/17/2004 4:39:43 PM PST by Ron H. (Amnesty, quasi-amnesty or guest worker, its still all the same thing. Amnesty is bad for America!)
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To: inquest
"And I can think of one moronic pro-illegal race-baiting sycophant on FR (who's wisely staying away from this thread) who's been claiming much the same thing of late."

Let me guess..when the flames start to fly, you'll be the first one pushing the abuse button.

102 posted on 11/17/2004 4:44:03 PM PST by Luis Gonzalez (Some people see the world as they would want it to be, effective people see the world as it is.)
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To: Ron H.
"It is our hope that in future discussions with the Mexican government, you will encourage Mexico to do its part to address illegal immigration rather than encourage their citizens to illegally enter the U.S."

I don't get it.

How does a plan that would give Mexican workers the opportunity and the tools to enter the country legally to work, be perceived by this guy as something that would encourage mexicans to "illegally enter the U.S.?"

103 posted on 11/17/2004 4:52:11 PM PST by Luis Gonzalez (Some people see the world as they would want it to be, effective people see the world as it is.)
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To: BlkConserv
C'mon. Like I said, Americans NOWADAYS. Sorry, but the Americans of today are not the hardworking, toiling Americans of yesteryear. No matter how broke someone is, they're not going to work at McDonald's or pick soybeans for $5.75 an hour. That's just how some people are.

I think you're painting with a pretty broad brush there. I personally know of several teenagers (the children of friends and neighbors) who work at fast food restaurants and at other jobs that pay minimum wage. As far as picking produce goes, most of that work is seasonal which requires a person to change jobs every 3-5 months and usually entails traveling from one part of the state to another (or even to neighboring states) to follow the crop harvesting season. Most Americans tend to like putting down roots in one place and have a full-time job year round.

104 posted on 11/17/2004 5:38:17 PM PST by usadave
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To: inquest
And I can think of one moronic pro-illegal race-baiting sycophant on FR (who's wisely staying away from this thread) who's been claiming much the same thing of late.

By any chance, does this person's FReeper name start with a 'b' and end with a 'd'?

105 posted on 11/17/2004 5:45:02 PM PST by usadave
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To: Ron H.

This man (Rep. Elton Gallegly) is getting a well deserved pat on the back from me for standing up for my rights as a citizen.

Congressmen Ed Royce is getting one too. Maybe I'll torment that P.O.S. Sanchez again...she's actually my new district.

Just a reminder to those who skip thru these articles without doing anything.

Your representatives will continue to stand up for your rights and your children...but you've got to let them know you have their backs. If there are people standing behind their efforts, opposing the Invader demonstrations, we can't lose.

If the only email messages I opened were negative, I wouldn't open them as much. Let's pass on a few "atta-boys"

Enough preaching, you guys are smart....or you wouldn't be here.
Here's the link, it's in my favorites.
http://www.house.gov/writerep/


106 posted on 11/17/2004 7:08:30 PM PST by 1_Inch_Group
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To: doc30
They won't have to leave. They'll have 3 years to pump out some more faulty DNA and make replicants.

3 years...that's 4 babies.

Then, once the first one is 18, he can sponsor his entire family.

107 posted on 11/17/2004 7:10:47 PM PST by 1_Inch_Group
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To: newzjunkey

You guys are driving me to drink.

Just when I've thought I'd seen it all. You had to go and break out the van seat picture.

.
.
.


108 posted on 11/17/2004 7:12:17 PM PST by 1_Inch_Group
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To: BlkConserv
Untrue. In the debates, both Kerry and Bush acknowledged that for every one illegal caught at the border, 3-4 get through.
109 posted on 11/17/2004 7:36:33 PM PST by radicalamericannationalist (The Senate is our new goal: 60 in '06.)
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To: BlkConserv
"Even if they need a job badly they'll still scowl and say they're not doing THAT job."

1. They wil pass up those jobs at a Third World wage scale. If we flooded the market with Indian and Chinese attorneys, thereby driving wages down, there would be less people willing to do the job. But that is a maeket distortion because of the fact that there is simply an unimaginably huge labor pool in the Third World. We are dragging our wages down.

2. "Most of these positions have been filled by Hispanic workers for years, even ones who came here legally in the 60s and 70s but have now moved up the economic ladder."

Please clarify. Are you saying that Hispanics who legally crossed the border and became citizens are not Americans?
110 posted on 11/17/2004 7:42:00 PM PST by radicalamericannationalist (The Senate is our new goal: 60 in '06.)
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To: BlkConserv
You realize that Eisenhower focused on deportation, no amnesty, right?
111 posted on 11/17/2004 7:43:16 PM PST by radicalamericannationalist (The Senate is our new goal: 60 in '06.)
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To: BlkConserv

"If you owned a business your primary objective is to make a profit. Ergo, you're going to duck our massive tax laws and regulations and hire illegals under the table."

So breaking the law is okay, so long as your goal is to make a profit? Tell me, when someone decides that the cost of cars is too high because of regulations and just steals yours, will you be so sanguine?


112 posted on 11/17/2004 7:45:57 PM PST by radicalamericannationalist (The Senate is our new goal: 60 in '06.)
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To: BlkConserv
Yes, I know. Allowing folks who cut in line to keep their places rather than going home and filing like those poor schmucks who actually respected American law is not amnesty. Because its called a guest worker program. See, it's not called amnesty, so even though it meets the definition of amnesty, it can't be called amnesty. Sure.
113 posted on 11/17/2004 7:47:46 PM PST by radicalamericannationalist (The Senate is our new goal: 60 in '06.)
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To: Independentamerican
Well, that's why we need to stop treating free trade as if it were a revealed Biblical truth instead of an economic theory developed for the realities of the 18th century.
114 posted on 11/17/2004 7:50:01 PM PST by radicalamericannationalist (The Senate is our new goal: 60 in '06.)
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To: radicalamericannationalist
All Hispanics are Americans, since they reside on the continents of the Western Hemisphere.
115 posted on 11/17/2004 7:51:29 PM PST by Cultural Jihad
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To: Cultural Jihad

I think I finally figured it out: Jews, Hispanics and Walmart.


116 posted on 11/17/2004 7:52:29 PM PST by CWOJackson
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To: Luis Gonzalez
Perhaps because after Bush first floated this proposal, Border Patrol agents reported a fourfold jump in illegal crossings. Those facts are pesky things.
117 posted on 11/17/2004 8:02:04 PM PST by radicalamericannationalist (The Senate is our new goal: 60 in '06.)
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To: cartman90210

If I wasn't watching my property taxes go up by $50/month every year so as to pay for the increased demand on schools that illegals cause, I too would find this pro-illegal crapola quite comical.


118 posted on 11/17/2004 8:12:14 PM PST by brianl703 (Border crossing is a misdemeanor. So is drunk driving. Which do we have more checkpoints for?)
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To: radicalamericannationalist
Four fold?

Fast and loose with the "facts", aren't you?

Maybe, if I keep on looking, I'll actually find a reliable source.

Maybe you didn't know the difference between a 10-15% increase in attempted uses of false IDs to cross into the country at the San Ysidro point, and a "fourfold jump in illegal crossings"...is that it?

Or were you lying?

119 posted on 11/17/2004 8:15:58 PM PST by Luis Gonzalez (Some people see the world as they would want it to be, effective people see the world as it is.)
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To: Cultural Jihad

So what you're saying, in a roundabout way, is that we need an unambiguous term to refer to US citizens and "Americans" isn't it.


120 posted on 11/17/2004 8:17:54 PM PST by brianl703 (Border crossing is a misdemeanor. So is drunk driving. Which do we have more checkpoints for?)
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To: Luis Gonzalez; Marine Inspector

I've pinged the person who would definitively know the answer to this question.


121 posted on 11/17/2004 8:19:27 PM PST by brianl703 (Border crossing is a misdemeanor. So is drunk driving. Which do we have more checkpoints for?)
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To: Luis Gonzalez

Where the rubber meets the road is allowing illegal aliens in our country to apply for legal status. That will cause the flood to become a tsunami based on empirical evidence. Applicants must live in a place where they live legally to apply. That is my considered judgment, and as you might have noticed, I have considerably dissonance on this issue, have changed my opinion somewhat, and did not come to my present view lightly, and still believe that in the end, the Hispanic diaspora in the fullness of time will be to our advantage. But the system can take only so much shock at once, and yet stay alive to see the promised land.


122 posted on 11/17/2004 9:00:24 PM PST by Torie
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To: BlkConserv

How about this idea:
In order to receive welfare, current (American) citizens on welfare will be required to work these "jobs Americans dont want" in order to receive welfare.
Of course, the welfare pay-out would be less since the recipients will have a low income (5.15/hr).
That should take care of it.

Your argument is now blown out of the water.

Try again -


123 posted on 11/17/2004 9:59:19 PM PST by SealSeven
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To: Torie

We are still not dealing with those already here.

We don't have the intestinal fortitude to round up possible Muslim extremists in the country, so in my honest opinion, we won't have the intestinal fortitude to round up millions of Mexican families and remove them from our soil.

So we will simply continue not to do anything about it because one option is not achievable, and we fear the consequences of another.

What we all seem to agree on is that doing nothing is not the right thing to do, yet, it seems that it's the only thing we manage to do effectively.

If you want to truly stop the flow, then we must help make there as palatable as here...then they'll just stay home.


124 posted on 11/17/2004 10:11:12 PM PST by Luis Gonzalez (Some people see the world as they would want it to be, effective people see the world as it is.)
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To: Torie
"But the system can take only so much shock at once, and yet stay alive to see the promised land."

But they are already here!

We all seem to have this notion that since they're not here legally, we can make believe that the system hasn't already absorbed the shock.

125 posted on 11/17/2004 10:14:23 PM PST by Luis Gonzalez (Some people see the world as they would want it to be, effective people see the world as it is.)
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To: Luis Gonzalez

Yes, of course, improving the standard of living in Mexico is job one. Job two, is to squeeze out the illegals by squeezing in the legals on tours of duty who play by the rules, with maybe something more permanent down the line. Job three is to crack down on employers. Job four is to get enough personal to deal with the chaos on the Arizona border. We need to get control of who is here. It is not about the browning of the median color of America's skin.


126 posted on 11/17/2004 10:15:05 PM PST by Torie
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To: brianl703
Or you could just check with Google.
127 posted on 11/17/2004 10:15:45 PM PST by Luis Gonzalez (Some people see the world as they would want it to be, effective people see the world as it is.)
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To: Luis Gonzalez

My delta function is what would entail if Bush rewarded the current illegals by giving them illegal status. The flood as I said would become a tsunami, and under the Bush administration, the flood has become close to unmanageable fiscally in many border states. The numbers were once manageable. They are no longer. That is my opinion.


128 posted on 11/17/2004 10:17:47 PM PST by Torie
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To: Torie
"Job two, is to squeeze out the illegals by squeezing in the legals on tours of duty who play by the rules, with maybe something more permanent down the line."

So, the solution as you see it is to remove ten million illegals living in the country, while simultaneously bringing in ten million trained replacement legal immigrants who are ready to take the jobs being vacated by the illegal immigrants.

And of course, no one will be crossing the borders illegally while we carry this restructuring of our workforce out, and the same majority of the US population who are now demanding a roll back in the number of immigrants being allowed into the country legally will have a change of heart, and get behind the increases in inbound legal immigrants.

129 posted on 11/17/2004 10:20:52 PM PST by Luis Gonzalez (Some people see the world as they would want it to be, effective people see the world as it is.)
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To: Torie

I'm willing to bet large amounts of cash that any illegal immigrant who's been in the country longer than three years, and who was young enough to do so, now has American citizen anchor kids.

Imagine the outcry.


130 posted on 11/17/2004 10:24:21 PM PST by Luis Gonzalez (Some people see the world as they would want it to be, effective people see the world as it is.)
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To: Luis Gonzalez

Economics is a powerful force. The jobs the illegals seek will be already filled, by those playing by the rules under a guest worker program, applying from Mexico et al (and not just Mexico, why should it just be Mexico?). The economic incentives will be diluted, and the illegals will get the message, and many will return home to start the process anew legally. Employers will have less incentive to cheat, and there will be a more robust stick for those that do. Identity swipe cards should be part of the equation. I am not sentimental about this. I want to the ship to tack - slowly - and I am patient.


131 posted on 11/17/2004 10:26:59 PM PST by Torie
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To: Luis Gonzalez

Anchor babies is an issue. No doubt. It is insane that that is in the Constitution, intending something else, but that is the way it is. But am not suggesting a roundup, just an economic squeeze. The parents will get the message.


132 posted on 11/17/2004 10:29:09 PM PST by Torie
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To: Luis Gonzalez

America is generous. If immigrants come in legally, on temporary work visas, and after a few tours of duty, with a clean record, are granted citizenship, they will be accepted, by all except the nativists, with open arms. After all, this is America. America needs to be renewed and energized by the aspiring and energetic from across the globe. Ameerica is an idea, not a race, or a tribe. That is what makes us special.


133 posted on 11/17/2004 10:32:45 PM PST by Torie
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To: Torie
"The jobs the illegals seek "

You continue to discuss means to stop aliens coming in illegally at some undefined point in the future, and are not discussing those aliens who are already here and working.

The ten million who are already here illegally are not seeking work, they already have work.

So in effect, the first order of business would be to dislodge illegal aliens already HERE and working, and replacing them with legal immigrants.

That's the part no one addresses.

134 posted on 11/17/2004 10:32:46 PM PST by Luis Gonzalez (Some people see the world as they would want it to be, effective people see the world as it is.)
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To: Luis Gonzalez

You are correct. The illegals would tend to lose their jobs, at least temporarily.


135 posted on 11/17/2004 10:33:57 PM PST by Torie
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To: Torie

Let's take the tomato canneries in Stanislaus County as an example.

They were nearly completely manned by Mexicans when I was there last year, and according to my hosts (the owners), they'd been working there for years...in many instances there were three generations of the same family who had been coming and working the harvest for decades.

They all had papers, whether those papers were legal or not no one knew.

These people will never be squeezed out, they would literally have to be removed by the INS, and replaced with legal immigrants.

I'll tell you one thing however...legal immigrants will not spend three generations working at the same tomato cannery.

So after removing all illegal immigrants, and replacing them with legal immigrants who would, and now I'm using empirical evidence, rise above working as field hands in a generation or so...who picks the tomatoes?


136 posted on 11/17/2004 10:40:30 PM PST by Luis Gonzalez (Some people see the world as they would want it to be, effective people see the world as it is.)
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To: Torie
"You are correct. The illegals would tend to lose their jobs, at least temporarily."

First you have to somehow identify the illegal aliens, and differentiate them from legal immigrants, in many instances working the same fields/restaurants/hotels.

137 posted on 11/17/2004 10:42:53 PM PST by Luis Gonzalez (Some people see the world as they would want it to be, effective people see the world as it is.)
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To: Luis Gonzalez

As legal temporary workers learn the language, and get good reviews, they will be in demand for other temporary jobs off the fields, and slowly just move on up to citizenship. And who says that temporary workers will be just field hands? Heck, they might even work at Tyson's chicken plants in beautiful Arkansas, or make funiture in beautiful downtown Gardena in California. Maybe we can import some lawyers too, just to keep me agile, or some salesmen, to put some pressure on the nice little deal the Cubans have in Florida. Bring it on.


138 posted on 11/17/2004 10:47:34 PM PST by Torie
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To: Luis Gonzalez

Swipe cards, and employer sanctions. Of course you and I know none of this will happen. We are just tripping out. The status quo ante will prevail, with slowly tightening borders, and maybe some large cheating employer roundups. So if you love the status quo, the future is yours. As I say, I am cautiously confident, that despite temporary insolvencies in border states, it will work out in the end. America is a very resilient and seductive place.


139 posted on 11/17/2004 10:50:43 PM PST by Torie
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To: Luis Gonzalez; Torie

I don't want to intrude on your conversation, I just wanted to say that I was enjoying seeing a calm and reasoned discourse on this difficult issue. I wish this were the model for most.


140 posted on 11/17/2004 10:52:44 PM PST by CWOJackson
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To: CWOJackson

Luis and I are good friends. That helps. Regards.


141 posted on 11/17/2004 10:53:44 PM PST by Torie
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To: Torie

I wish there were a way to start threads like this where it could be discussed the way you two are handling it. There is probably no one on FR who thinks illegal immigration is a good thing but clear and realistic ideas on how to handle it are not common.


142 posted on 11/17/2004 10:59:03 PM PST by CWOJackson
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To: Torie

Here's what I think is the problem here.

There are TWO problems that everyone seems to lump as one.

Problem one are the ten plus million illegal aliens already in the country.

Problem two is the remaining millions that will come in if we let them.

Let's address problem one as it relates to Tancredo's proposal.

Imagine that your name is Pedro, and that you and your wife Elvira arrived in the US from El Salvador back in 1986, and decided to overstay your visa and set roots in beautiful Hialeah (blue collar immigrant city in NW Miami-Dade County).

You went out in the immigrant underground (yes, there is quite an extensive one here) and bought a couple of great sets of papers for yourself and Elvira, then you got a job at La Suave Shoe factory doing plant maintenance, and Elvira cleaning rooms at the Ramada Inn by the highway.

Eighteen years later, you have made it to maintenance supervisor at La Suave, and 'Vira now has a house cleaning business that employs half a dozen newly arrived immigrant women. Your kids, Luisito ;-), Silvia, and Anna are attending school, and Luisito wants to study architecture.

Along comes Tom Tancredo who tells you that you now need to give up your house, your job, your things, and your kid's future...everything you've built in the last eighteen years, and go back to El Salvador to apply for a possible limited legal re-entry and take a job ten steps back down the ladder IF you get back in, and IF someone will hire you...La Suave can't wait to see if you will come back.

If you don't go back voluntarily, you run the risk of getting caught and being deported, losing your house, your job, your things, and any possibility of a good future for your kids.

Would you volunteer to leave, or would you wait until they caught you?

IF you got caught.

Mark my words...we are either going to have to legalize a ton of the illegal aliens already here, or round them up and remove them by force...no half measures here.

Now, the border is a different issue altogether, and subject for another night.


143 posted on 11/17/2004 11:13:30 PM PST by Luis Gonzalez (Some people see the world as they would want it to be, effective people see the world as it is.)
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To: CWOJackson

Buzz off troll!

:0)


144 posted on 11/17/2004 11:14:03 PM PST by Luis Gonzalez (Some people see the world as they would want it to be, effective people see the world as it is.)
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To: Luis Gonzalez

Sob...gasp...WWWHHHHHHHHAAAAAA


145 posted on 11/17/2004 11:15:29 PM PST by CWOJackson
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To: Torie

By the way...that legendary $10 tomato is nearly upon us, and the price wasn't driven up due to a spike in the wages of the pickers, but thanks to four hurricanes in one month treking over the nation's tomato supply in Florida.


146 posted on 11/17/2004 11:20:24 PM PST by Luis Gonzalez (Some people see the world as they would want it to be, effective people see the world as it is.)
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To: Luis Gonzalez

You should have been a lawyer. Hard cases make bad policy. This family might qualify to enter legally under some visa as a rich enterpriser who "will" create jobs. Plus, I think this family would have qualified under previous amnesty programs. Were they asleep at the switch? I am open to certain exceptions, particulary if your hypo is of a tax paying Cuban American family, who may have voted for Bush illegally. :) But my real fear is to create a tsunami. When it comes to that, just mark me down as a no-nothing Tancredoite. Oh the horror!


147 posted on 11/17/2004 11:22:52 PM PST by Torie
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To: Luis Gonzalez
I can afford tomatoes whatever they cost. I am a rich Republican. I don't care about their price, and will buy them because I am persuaded they might extend my life, so I can annoy all and sundry on this very forum a bit longer, with my continually noxious seditious RINO thoughts.
148 posted on 11/17/2004 11:26:14 PM PST by Torie
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To: Ron H.

When I was a teenager, my classmates were the berry pickers. Between the young people looking to earn gas and
date money and the legal immigrants, the fields and orchards should be pretty well taken care of. Instead of putting immigrants on SSI and foodstamps the minute they get into the country, let them work for their money. Also
prisoners can be a source of labor for road repair and farm
work.


149 posted on 11/17/2004 11:34:59 PM PST by Paperdoll (on the cutting edge: OUR FIGHT HAS JUST BEGUN)
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To: Luis Gonzalez

Your post is very good. It helps to clarify the situation. I think a fence and border guards are not the right answer. We have to eliminate the draw of easy jobs and welfare. The first step is to use biometric indentification and no longer use documents of any kind. Then make it both mandatory and very easy for employers to determine if an applicant is legal (using biometrics). Finally when you find a business employing illegals, shut them down and confiscate the business or take away the contractors license. Eventually the jobs for illegals will simply dry up. Once the volume of illegals drops, it will be more practical to carefully scrutinize every person crossing the border for terrorist ties. Illegals who are here and have been here for 5 or 10 years will lose their jobs and go home. Finally we need to change our constitution to agree with 95% of other countries and no longer give citizenship to children born to citizens of another country on our soil.



150 posted on 11/17/2004 11:40:01 PM PST by LloydofDSS (Libertarian supporter of Bush and Arnold.)
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