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Congressmen urge Bush to drop guest-worker plan
The Washington Times ^ | November 17, 2004 | Jerry Seper

Posted on 11/17/2004 8:54:21 AM PST by Ron H.

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To: Maceman
"I really don't get Bush's position on this at all."

Pandering to Hispanics?
If you accept that Bush is shamelessly pandering to that group, it 'splains a lot about his executive branch and judicial appointments.

51 posted on 11/17/2004 10:38:24 AM PST by Redbob
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To: radicalamericannationalist
What you mean is jobs that Americans won't do for Third World wages. By flooding our labor market with the world's economic refugees, we're simply bidding our standard of living down.

You know how most Americans are nowadays. Even if they need a job badly they'll still scowl and say they're not doing THAT job. Most of these positions have been filled by Hispanic workers for years, even ones who came here legally in the 60s and 70s but have now moved up the economic ladder. So they left these positions and now they've been vacant and are being filled by illegals, since Americans won't do 'em.

52 posted on 11/17/2004 10:40:25 AM PST by BlkConserv
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To: Ron H.; Budweiser

Bump.


53 posted on 11/17/2004 10:40:53 AM PST by Tolerance Sucks Rocks (Deport 'em all; let Fox sort 'em out!)
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To: BlkConserv
Hispanic workers also provide housekeeping in hotels, work in meat-packing facilities, clean offices after-hours, and do construction jobs.

Now you're starting to list those types of jobs that Americans WILL gladly do and have traditionally done over the decades.

54 posted on 11/17/2004 10:42:35 AM PST by usadave
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To: nonliberal
Tancredo/Hutchison 2008!

As in ASA Hutchison??? I think ol' Asa actally likes open borders. As an undersecretary in Homeland Security, he has said that we should just ignore immigration law...

55 posted on 11/17/2004 10:46:48 AM PST by Tolerance Sucks Rocks (Deport 'em all; let Fox sort 'em out!)
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To: newgeezer
The illegals work in the US and send millions of US dollars back to their families in Mexico. Seems like Mexico would have to be incredibly stupid to discourage that.

They won't unless the U.S. makes it untenable, unattractive economically and socially unacceptable. At the moment all of those are the opposite.




56 posted on 11/17/2004 10:48:14 AM PST by Ron H. (Amnesty, quasi-amnesty or guest worker, its still all the same thing. Amnesty is bad for America!)
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To: AuntB
You have to realize that Bush is the first President since perhaps Eisenhower to undertake immigration reform. Nobody said it was going to be easy, and I understand that Bush's plan has holes. But Bush is at least trying to correct a situation that he had no control over and that has been festering since the 1960s.

Remember, Bush's team was assembled late thanks to Gore trying to hijack the election so he really couldn't focus on anything except passing his tax cuts.

57 posted on 11/17/2004 10:49:19 AM PST by BlkConserv
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To: BlkConserv
So they left these positions and now they've been vacant and are being filled by illegals, since Americans won't do 'em...

...at the wages being offered by American employers. I guess us 'lazy' Americans just don't like living with 15 other people in a one bedroom apartment like many Mexican illegal aliens do so that they can survive on what's left of their meager salaries after sending a big chunk of it back home to their families in Mexico.

58 posted on 11/17/2004 10:49:44 AM PST by usadave
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To: BlkConserv
...doing jobs that Americans won't do like picking produce...

If these jobs were offered at higher wages, there would be Americans willing to do them. However, when you have all these illegals willing to work for lower pay, why offer the jobs at pay rates attractive to Americans?

59 posted on 11/17/2004 10:50:02 AM PST by Tolerance Sucks Rocks (Deport 'em all; let Fox sort 'em out!)
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To: Ron H.; Joe Hadenuf; All

I haven’t checked this out yet, but it may be worth it. I’ve caught this program on late night radio several times, The Mark Edwards Show - Wake up America on KDWN, Las Vegas. Jim Gilcrest with a website, www.minutemanproject.com is organizing people to go to the So. border in April. They plan on shining spot lights and having cameras to document the nightly crossings. They don’t sound like racist whacko’s and they insist on no violence,firearms, etc., but we need to check them out further.

Another caller was talking about the Identity Theft Penalty Enhancement Act, recentlly passed. I'm going to look it up, but the caller said it has provisions to punish employers who knowingly hire illegals with illegal identification. Any lawyers out there have an opinion?


60 posted on 11/17/2004 10:50:49 AM PST by AuntB (Most provisional ballots are from voters not eligible to vote!!! Ask a poll worker!)
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Comment #61 Removed by Moderator

To: usadave
Now you're starting to list those types of jobs that Americans WILL gladly do and have traditionally done over the decades.

C'mon. Like I said, Americans NOWADAYS. Sorry, but the Americans of today are not the hardworking, toiling Americans of yesteryear. No matter how broke someone is, they're not going to work at McDonald's or pick soybeans for $5.75 an hour. That's just how some people are.

62 posted on 11/17/2004 10:51:45 AM PST by BlkConserv
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To: BlkConserv
Remember, Bush's team was assembled late thanks to Gore trying to hijack the election so he really couldn't focus on anything except passing his tax cuts.

That won't wash. He has had four years to assess the situation, realize the threat to national security, and start big-time deportations. 9/11 should have helped drive this imperative home for him.

Bush's sop to the cheap-labor crowd and the Hispanistas should be recognized for what it is, and strenuously opposed by every American.

63 posted on 11/17/2004 10:53:57 AM PST by Tolerance Sucks Rocks (Deport 'em all; let Fox sort 'em out!)
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To: BlkConserv
No matter how broke someone is, they're not going to work at McDonald's or pick soybeans for $5.75 an hour.

That's a good argument for gutting welfare programs, not rewarding illegal border-jumpers that might include terrorists.

64 posted on 11/17/2004 10:55:39 AM PST by Tolerance Sucks Rocks (Deport 'em all; let Fox sort 'em out!)
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To: usadave
...at the wages being offered by American employers. I guess us 'lazy' Americans just don't like living with 15 other people in a one bedroom apartment like many Mexican illegal aliens do so that they can survive on what's left of their meager salaries after sending a big chunk of it back home to their families in Mexico.

Start thinking like a capitalist instead of like Willie Green. If you owned a business your primary objective is to make a profit. Ergo, you're going to duck our massive tax laws and regulations and hire illegals under the table.

I'm not saying what the employers are doing is good, but blame the Congresscritters. They're the ones who created the business climate that forced businesses to go underground and hire illegal aliens instead of paying higher wages and health care benefits to American workers.

65 posted on 11/17/2004 10:57:30 AM PST by BlkConserv
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To: BlkConserv
Illegal immigration is a national security issue, not an economic one.

I don't care how hard illegal aliens work, I don't care about the fact that they'll do the jobs (and committ the crimes) that Americans won't do. THEY'RE HERE ILLEGALLLY! WHAT PART OF ILLEGAL DO YOU NOT UNDERSTAND, BRO?

66 posted on 11/17/2004 11:00:20 AM PST by No-Compromise Conservative
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To: Tolerance Sucks Rocks
Bush's sop to the cheap-labor crowd and the Hispanistas should be recognized for what it is, and strenuously opposed by every American.

Bush's plan is not an amnesty. Please read it before condemning it and urge Tancredo to work with the President. The bottom line is that they're already here.

67 posted on 11/17/2004 11:11:42 AM PST by BlkConserv
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To: No-Compromise Conservative

What part of "They've been here for years way before Bush ever set foot in the Oval Office" don't YOU understand?


68 posted on 11/17/2004 11:12:17 AM PST by BlkConserv
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To: Ron H.
Terrorists might be smuggled into US, says Rumsfeld

The United States is concerned that smuggling routes traditionally used to move illegal aliens into the country “could be used just as easily for terrorists,” US Defense Secretary Donald Rumsfeld says.

Speaking ahead of a meeting of defense ministers from North and Latin America, Rumsfeld cautioned that nations in the region must work even harder to improve security ties, including control over jungle and mountain borders and ungoverned areas.

“There is no question that there are terrorist organizations that are functioning in the United States, in North America and in South America and in Central America,”he said, emphasizing violent narcotics cartels, smuggling of people, criminal gangs and hostage-taking for money.

“And from our standpoint, obviously, the risk that some of these human smuggling routes into our country from this hemisphere could be used just as easily for terrorists.”

Rumsfeld did not mention specific routes used to smuggle people into the United States illegally, although some are known to move across the Mexican border and others in small boats and cargo ships.

http://www.dailytimes.com.pk/default.asp?page=story_17-11-2004_pg4_2

Secretary of Defense Rumsfeld is not in the habit a making idle statements.

Yet, ..... Did not the moronic malfeasant Chief of the U.S. Border Patrol - David Aguilar - just recently tell us that the U.S./Mexico Border was safe and secure?

And did not Tucson Border Patrol Chief Smirkingly Deny Report or Terrorists crossing the border from Mexico into the U.S. in the Tucson Sector?

And did not Tom Ridge state that all was in order: see article below "No Security Necessary on Border of Homeland"

(article)

Secretary of Defense Rumsfeld is not in the habit a making idle statements.

69 posted on 11/17/2004 11:12:37 AM PST by yoe
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To: radicalamericannationalist

"What you mean is jobs that Americans won't do for Third World wages. By flooding our labor market with the world's economic refugees, we're simply bidding our standard of living down"

Globalization is the other side to your statement. We now also have companies leaving the US for cheaper labor and better tax relief. GM is building a few engines in China now. Tommy Hilfiger (American Flag and all- Headquartered in Hong Kong?


70 posted on 11/17/2004 11:30:29 AM PST by Independentamerican (Independent Junior at the University of MD)
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To: Ron H.
There needs to be a plan!
71 posted on 11/17/2004 11:34:17 AM PST by unspun (unspun.info | Did U work your precinct, churchmembers, etc. for good votes?)
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To: newgeezer

What, you'd have to pay $12/hour to find someone to shovel your pig sh*t in 110 degree heat, and you think that's too much? Then, by all means, do it yourself.


Globalization has changed all of that. Look at Walmart, if you have an item that you would like them to sell there is no negotiation. They tell you what you have to sell if for which then makes you go back to your manufacturer and pray that the item can be made at a reduced amount. Either way we are screwed. Look at all the mom and pop stores going out of business. They cannot compete with the cheap labor that Walmart uses and that gives Walmart unbelievable pricing power.


72 posted on 11/17/2004 11:35:16 AM PST by Independentamerican (Independent Junior at the University of MD)
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To: BlkConserv

>>after these jobs have been posted for 60 days FOR Americans but haven't been filled<<

Yeah, at $5.25 and hour. If you pay them, Americans will do manual labor. In the 1960s, a meatpacker could earn over $20 and hour. Not in 1990s, inflation-adjusted dollars, but in 1960s money! Today, they get about $6 and hour. Why? Immigrant laborers.

Five years ago, my brother was making $25-$75 an hour in construction in the northeast. He moved to the southwest and found out that he can get about $6 to $7. And plenty of illegals work for far, far less than minimum.

The choice is simple: Paying 99 cents for a fast-food burger, instead of 79 cents, or face a bankrupted society run by socialists with no defense against terrorism, and no sense of nationhood.


73 posted on 11/17/2004 11:38:32 AM PST by dangus
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To: Tolerance Sucks Rocks

Asa HITCHINSON.
I believe he was referring to Sen. HUTCHISON of Texas, maybe? But I doubt any Texan statewide office-holder is very good on immigration, either.


74 posted on 11/17/2004 11:41:58 AM PST by dangus
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To: Tolerance Sucks Rocks

Asa HUTCHINSON.
I believe he was referring to Sen. HUTCHISON of Texas, maybe? But I doubt any Texan statewide office-holder is very good on immigration, either.

Now I make a type. *sigh*


75 posted on 11/17/2004 11:42:22 AM PST by dangus
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To: No-Compromise Conservative

Illegal immigration is a national security issue, not an economic one.

WHAT !!! If that were the case with our presidents war on terror why do we still have a such a huge problem ....HINT HINT it benefits businesses who lobby the government. Illegal immigration is a national security issue but it is a bigger economic issue. If I ran a company the bottom line would be avoiding taxes and turn profits. Capitalism baby...


76 posted on 11/17/2004 11:55:31 AM PST by Independentamerican (Independent Junior at the University of MD)
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To: dangus

"Five years ago, my brother was making $25-$75 an hour in construction in the northeast. He moved to the southwest and found out that he can get about $6 to $7. And plenty of illegals work for far, far less than minimum."

On top of what you just mentioned taxes back in those days were far less than what they are today. Can you imagine the tax increase we are going to face once baby boomers start retiring. With a huge reduction in America as far as the tax base will become either our taxes will have to increase dramatically or we need a heck of alot more people to replace them.


77 posted on 11/17/2004 11:59:24 AM PST by Independentamerican (Independent Junior at the University of MD)
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To: Ron H.

Some GOOD illegal alien news ! Thanks !


78 posted on 11/17/2004 12:08:47 PM PST by jimt
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To: BlkConserv

That is screwed up.

Did you ever stop to think that maybe one of the things that makes this country so great is that we don't have a large number people who will break any law just to make a quick buck?

But no, your idea of capitalism appears to be what the executives of Enron, Global Crossing and others think that it is. A quick buck, damn the future consequences.

That is no way to run a business, at least not a business you expect to keep.


79 posted on 11/17/2004 12:23:35 PM PST by brianl703 (Border crossing is a misdemeanor. So is drunk driving. Which do we have more checkpoints for?)
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To: BlkConserv

And since when has law enforement started to detain and deport illegals? It isn't happening now so why expect it to happen in the future?


80 posted on 11/17/2004 12:38:30 PM PST by doc30 (Democrats are to morals what and Etch-A-Sketch is to Art.)
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To: BlkConserv
You have to realize that Bush is the first President since perhaps Eisenhower to undertake immigration reform.

Reagan is felt by many to be the father of the current mess because of his attempt at "reform" in the 1980's. It was the only decision he publicly lamented after leaving office?

Suggest you better understand the subject at hand before you launch into discussions with the adults on this forum.

81 posted on 11/17/2004 12:43:10 PM PST by Amerigomag
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To: jimt
Some GOOD illegal alien news !

Yes it is and it is about time. Progress is being made but I'm sure you know as well as I do that we can't afford to let our guard down any considering who the opposition is comprised of and what their goal is.

Here are some interesting regarding this issue in case you haven't yet seen them:

Blair Calls for World to Unite

Bush Win May Pave Way for Americas Free Trade Talks

Aztlan and Amalgamation

Once one starts pulling together the various pieces of information on this subject the picture starts to clear up as to what Bush and his comrades in arms are up to. And it is not really in Americas best interest.




82 posted on 11/17/2004 12:50:53 PM PST by Ron H. (Amnesty, quasi-amnesty or guest worker, its still all the same thing. Amnesty is bad for America!)
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To: BlkConserv

"C'mon. Like I said, Americans NOWADAYS. Sorry, but the Americans of today are not the hardworking, toiling Americans of yesteryear. No matter how broke someone is, they're not going to work at McDonald's or pick soybeans for $5.75 an hour. That's just how some people are."


You know, those words are very insulting to those of us who are Americans and who work in the trades and at blue-collar jobs in this country. As they say in the South, you don't know your butt from a hole in the ground. You really need to climb down out of your ivory tower and get out more. There are PLENTY of hard-working American citizens in this country. People have been spouting the old "it's impossible to find good help these days" line for decades in this country - incidentally most of the time using it to justify paying crap wages.


83 posted on 11/17/2004 12:52:03 PM PST by EagleMamaMT
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To: BlkConserv
Hispanic workers also provide housekeeping in hotels, work in meat-packing facilities, clean offices after-hours, and do construction jobs.

Uh, I've been in America a LONG time, and unless my memory has faded away, ALL these jobs existed, and were performed just fine by American citizens before the illegals snuck in, undercut American wages, and began sucking our social service and medical system dry.

84 posted on 11/17/2004 1:40:50 PM PST by janetgreen
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To: BlkConserv
Bush's plan is not an amnesty. Please read it before condemning it and urge Tancredo to work with the President. The bottom line is that they're already here.

Oh, puh-lease. It pardons their lawbreaking if they're working in this country. That IS basically an amnesty, albeit a temporary one, and not only is it a potential threat to our national security (do these people even get background checks?), but it's also a damning insult to those people (including Hispanics) who went through the background check and other hoops to get here legally.

I hope this plan is dead on arrival in Congress.

85 posted on 11/17/2004 1:57:00 PM PST by Tolerance Sucks Rocks (Deport 'em all; let Fox sort 'em out!)
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To: dangus
Asa HUTCHINSON.

Oops. My bad. What's in a name...

86 posted on 11/17/2004 2:01:11 PM PST by Tolerance Sucks Rocks (Deport 'em all; let Fox sort 'em out!)
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To: yoe
Yet, ..... Did not the moronic malfeasant Chief of the U.S. Border Patrol - David Aguilar - just recently tell us that the U.S./Mexico Border was safe and secure?

And did not Tucson Border Patrol Chief Smirkingly Deny Report or Terrorists crossing the border from Mexico into the U.S. in the Tucson Sector?

And did not Tom Ridge state that all was in order: see article below "No Security Necessary on Border of Homeland"

And I can think of one moronic pro-illegal race-baiting sycophant on FR (who's wisely staying away from this thread) who's been claiming much the same thing of late.

87 posted on 11/17/2004 2:44:48 PM PST by inquest (Now is the time to remove the leftist influence from the GOP. "Unity" can wait.)
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To: Ron H.
This plan needs to be more than simply defeated. Bush causes damage simply by proposing it, because it encourages border jumpers even further in hopes that they'll get in before any amnesty goes into effect.

What Congress needs to do, more than simply voting this down, is pass a strongly worded resolution declaring that amnesty is not an option and insisting that Bush stop making such proposals. Let it be published in Spanish as well as English.

88 posted on 11/17/2004 2:50:14 PM PST by inquest (Now is the time to remove the leftist influence from the GOP. "Unity" can wait.)
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To: usadave

Yesterday, was on the way home from work. Saw a pick up truck pull over to the side of the street. out of it came 4 guys, all very non assimilated in appearance. Place they were dropped off is the same as where they would have been picked up early in the morning. In all border states, this is common.


89 posted on 11/17/2004 3:06:16 PM PST by GOP_1900AD (Stomping on "PC," destroying the Left, and smoking out faux "conservatives" - Take Back The GOP!)
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To: Independentamerican

Ironically, if you want to buy a car or truck assembled in the US, with most of the parts made in the US, a few made in Canada or Mexico, and no Red Commie Scum PRC content, the best bet is to buy a Japanese brand. Up is down, down is up. Strange times ....


90 posted on 11/17/2004 3:14:40 PM PST by GOP_1900AD (Stomping on "PC," destroying the Left, and smoking out faux "conservatives" - Take Back The GOP!)
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To: BlkConserv
C'mon. Like I said, Americans NOWADAYS. Sorry, but the Americans of today are not the hardworking, toiling Americans of yesteryear. No matter how broke someone is, they're not going to work at McDonald's or pick soybeans for $5.75 an hour. That's just how some people are.

Interesting. So by this line of reasoning, how do Americans of Mexican/Hispanic descent factor in? Are they naturally lazy because they're American, or are they hardworking because "it's in their genes"?

Considering the cost of living, especially in expensive cities such as Los Angeles, San Francisco or New York, why should anyone be expected to consider $5.75 a decent hourly wage? I suppose if you have 12 or 15 people crammed together in an apartment with sleeping bags where the furniture is supposed to be, you could make ends meet, but other than that, how far do you think that kind of money is supposed to go?

As for the "Americans of yesteryear," plenty of them are still alive, albeit a bit older. What data do you have that shows how many of these older citizens are picking lettuce or cleaning motel rooms or whatever you say Americans won't do?

If I wasn't watching my home state crumble before my eyes, I'd find all of this pro-illegal rhetoric really comical.

91 posted on 11/17/2004 3:14:50 PM PST by cartman90210 ("Sorry kids, those people from the future will do the same job for 25 cents!")
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To: EagleMamaMT

We have been in a deflationary labor market for a long time. Cost and price reduction expectations have gotten, quite frankly, out of hand. People who could not afford to hire other people to do their grunt work 30 years ago now EXPECT to be able to. Overall, in real terms, goods and services have been in a slight inflationary trend for years and only by being in a race to the bottom in terms of labor rates have we been able to avoid greater overall increases. And finally, and I know many here are asking this, the reason why the cost of things such as construction has gone up, in spite of Joe McCoy being replaced by Pedro Martinez, is that either Joe McCoy became the boss, and is living better than most of us, or, some new brash dude stepped into the role. The reduction in labor cost goes into the contractors' pockets.


92 posted on 11/17/2004 3:26:11 PM PST by GOP_1900AD (Stomping on "PC," destroying the Left, and smoking out faux "conservatives" - Take Back The GOP!)
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To: Maceman

I really don't get Bush's position on this at all.



Bush, like most other politicians, in the federal government (along with their comrades in the media) have conspired for years to meld the Americas into one economic/trade/cultural block, one little step at a time. Europe and Africa are the second block, Australia and Asia the third block. Eventually, once they have completely erased our borders, they will go one step further and force us all to live under the UN global unbrella. Welcome to hell! We've all been dupped. There is no going back now - this country is too far gone into the hands of the socialist new world order crowd.


93 posted on 11/17/2004 3:33:00 PM PST by RepublicanHippy
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To: Ron H.

Go Elton.


94 posted on 11/17/2004 3:41:01 PM PST by 4.1O dana super trac pak (Stop the open borders death cult)
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To: Maceman

Simple. GWB supports cheap illegal labor.


95 posted on 11/17/2004 4:27:28 PM PST by Huck (The day will come when liberals will complain that chess is too violent .)
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To: GOP_1900AD

"The reduction in labor cost goes into the contractors' pockets."


Exactly! It certainly isn't passed along to the home buyers.


96 posted on 11/17/2004 4:30:08 PM PST by EagleMamaMT
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To: Ron H.

Got to give credit to John Duncan of TN. He is usually on the right side of this and many other issues.


97 posted on 11/17/2004 4:31:00 PM PST by PersonalLiberties (An honest politician is one who, when he's bought, stays bought. -Simon Cameron, political boss)
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To: doc30

In 6 yrs they will have saved enough money to return to mexico and retire and live good for the rest of their lives.


98 posted on 11/17/2004 4:33:01 PM PST by cajun-jack
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To: Tolerance Sucks Rocks

Exactly if we really had a shortage of unskilled, uneducated labor in this country, then jobs that were unskilled and did not require an education would be offering higher and higher wages to attact workers. Which obviously is not the case.


99 posted on 11/17/2004 4:35:52 PM PST by PersonalLiberties (An honest politician is one who, when he's bought, stays bought. -Simon Cameron, political boss)
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To: Ron H.
"It is our hope that in future discussions with the Mexican government, you will encourage Mexico to do its part to address illegal immigration rather than encourage their citizens to illegally enter the U.S."

He fails to address those already here, what do we do with them?

100 posted on 11/17/2004 4:38:49 PM PST by Luis Gonzalez (Some people see the world as they would want it to be, effective people see the world as it is.)
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