Free Republic
Browse · Search
News/Activism
Topics · Post Article

Skip to comments.

Europeans See Change, But Is It True?
The Ashbrook Center for public affairs ^ | November 04 | Andrew E. Busch

Posted on 11/20/2004 7:12:40 AM PST by Valin

The reelection of George W. Bush sent a cloud of gloom over much of Europe. "How can 59,054,087 people be so DUMB?" was the headline of the post-election edition of the Daily Mirror, a British tabloid.

Once the European intelligentsia recovered its wits well enough to speak, a common theme emerged: America was not what they thought it was. Before November 2, it could be hoped that Bush was a fluke, a truly "accidental president" who did not really represent Americans. After November 2, Europe had to come to grips with the fact that a majority of American voters actually liked the 43rd president, or at any rate preferred him to the suave Europhile John Kerry. As one European diplomat said, "Now we know it’s not just the group of people who rules; it’s the way American society is evolving. It’s distinctly less European than it used to be." Guillaume Parmentier, director of the French Center on the United States, agreed that "There’s a feeling in Europe today that America has profoundly changed."

Such sentiments naturally lead to two questions. Has anything really changed? And, if so, is it America that changed—or Europe?

In one sense, it is clear that there is at least some exaggeration about the degree to which anything has changed. Did French-American relations become strained because of Iraq? Hardly. In World War II, some of the first combat Americans faced in the European war was against French troops fighting for the Vichy regime in North Africa. In 1956, the U.S. found itself on the opposite side from France (and Britain) during the Suez crisis. In 1966, France removed itself from the military arm of NATO, meaning that France has not been a military ally of the United States for nearly 40 years. In 1980, French President Valery Giscard d’Estang infuriated Jimmy Carter when he met secretly with Soviet dictator Leonid Brezhnev to discuss ways around Carter’s post-Afghanistan anti-Soviet toughness. In 1986, American pilots on their way to bomb Libya in retaliation for a terrorist attack were put at risk when France refused to allow them to fly over French territory. Throughout the 1990s, French leaders portrayed the European Union as a conscious counterweight to America. In 1999, France opposed Bill Clinton’s war in Kosovo.

More generally, Europe has long been awash in knee-jerk anti-Americanism among its elites, who have viewed Americans as rough, uncultured upstarts. It has also long been afflicted by higher levels of collectivism and statism, as well as an appeasement reflex that goes back at least as far as travails with the Barbary Coast pirates in the Mediterranean in the early 1800s. The Europeans preferred to buy the pirates off; Jefferson preferred to send the Marines to the shores of Tripoli. For their part, Americans have long liked to view their country as part of the New World, a place where one could escape the feudal hierarchy, the pointless jealousies, and the authoritarianism of Europe.

To the extent that something has changed, though, the Europeans have it backwards. It is Europe that has "evolved" and red-state America that has adhered to older norms, in at least three key areas.

First, while the values divide between Europe and America may be growing, it is not because America is growing more religious. Rather, it is because Europe has all but abandoned the religious heritage that has served as the moral foundation of Western Civilization for two millenia. Europeans are free, of course, to take their moral guidance from Marx, Nietzsche, Sartre, and Derrida rather than Moses and St. Paul, but they are not entitled to embrace nihilism and hedonism as their new religion and then accuse Americans of changing.

Second, while the United States has long valued international organizations and still gives them every bit of respect that they earn, most Americans are reluctant to surrender their national sovereignty to those organizations, especially when their freedom and safety is at stake. This, however, is not a new position; it is a position as old as the nation-state. It is Europeans who have embarked on the unprecedented experiment of voluntarily subsuming their national identities to the whims of international bureaucracies.

This point leads inexorably into the third. Americans continue to cling to old verities of natural law and natural rights, not least of which is the supreme demand for government based on the consent of the governed. It is precisely the connection between consent on one hand and accountability and legitimacy on the other that causes Americans to prefer fealty to their Constitution over international organizations. We can hold George Bush (or Tom Daschle) accountable, but how can we hold accountable Kofi Annan or Hans Blix? There is a growing recognition by observers that the European Union has been built at a great cost to democracy; Europeans themselves refer to a "democratic deficit." Many Europeans may be willing to throw overboard one of the most central principles of a free society, but they can hardly complain when Americans prove not so willing.

Altogether, Europeans have effectively removed themselves from Christendom while surrendering their sovereignty and much of the basis of their liberty. It is Europeans who have stopped having children and who have instead opened the floodgates to a potentially decisive fifth column of anti-Western immigrants; Europeans who have adopted the historically novel view that diplomacy with tyrants can succeed in the absence of a credible threat of force. And now it is Europeans who argue that Americans are the ones who have changed. This might be a good time for self-reflection among Europe’s elites, if they can spare a moment from their mourning.

Andrew E. Busch is a Professor of Government at Claremont McKenna College and an Adjunct Fellow of the Ashbrook Center.


TOPICS: Editorial; Foreign Affairs
KEYWORDS: antiamericanism; eurotwitsforkerry

1 posted on 11/20/2004 7:12:41 AM PST by Valin
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | View Replies]

To: Valin

didja hear that joke about the old american that visited france?

he's asked for his passport by a french airport official who remarks, "you americans should know that when you come to france you have to show your passport".

the american replies, "the last time i was here was on omaha beach and there weren't any french men in sight".


2 posted on 11/20/2004 7:17:33 AM PST by ken21 (against the democrat plantation.)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: Valin
Absolutely accurate. When that fifth column couples with the appeasement gene, it's all over for Europe and we will be facing a nuclear armed adversary.
3 posted on 11/20/2004 7:19:03 AM PST by Carry_Okie (Three choices: Defeat Islam, submit, or die.)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: Valin
...while the values divide between Europe and America may be growing, it is not because America is growing more religious. Rather, it is because Europe has all but abandoned the religious heritage that has served as the moral foundation of Western Civilization for two millenia. Europeans are free, of course, to take their moral guidance from Marx, Nietzsche, Sartre, and Derrida rather than Moses and St. Paul, but they are not entitled to embrace nihilism and hedonism as their new religion and then accuse Americans of changing...

Americans continue to cling to old verities of natural law and natural rights, not least of which is the supreme demand for government based on the consent of the governed. It is precisely the connection between consent on one hand and accountability and legitimacy on the other that causes Americans to prefer fealty to their Constitution over international organizations. We can hold George Bush (or Tom Daschle) accountable, but how can we hold accountable Kofi Annan or Hans Blix?...

Altogether, Europeans have effectively removed themselves from Christendom while surrendering their sovereignty and much of the basis of their liberty. It is Europeans who have stopped having children and who have instead opened the floodgates to a potentially decisive fifth column of anti-Western immigrants; Europeans who have adopted the historically novel view that diplomacy with tyrants can succeed in the absence of a credible threat of force.

Very well stated.

4 posted on 11/20/2004 7:22:07 AM PST by Unam Sanctam
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: Valin

In summarizing the actions of our wondefrful ally France, he might have mentioned that 1970, four years after our Fed saved the Franc, DeGaulle prepared to redeem all the French dollar reserves for gold, thus emptying Ft. Knox and crashing the dollar on world markets.

To prevent this, President Nixon "closed the gold window" and set gold free to float in dollar values. That's why gold no longer costs 35$ an ounce, and why the dollar is still the reserve currency of the world.


5 posted on 11/20/2004 7:22:09 AM PST by hinckley buzzard
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: Valin

It appears that the Wahabi/al Qaeda Islamofascists have used their wealth to destroy any core of morality left in Eurotrash land. Now, the Eurotrash will reap their bad seed harvest of adopting PCism and hating Christianity and Judaic beliefs.

"Altogether, Europeans have effectively removed themselves from Christendom while surrendering their sovereignty and much of the basis of their liberty. It is Europeans who have stopped having children and who have instead opened the floodgates to a potentially decisive fifth column of anti-Western immigrants; Europeans who have adopted the historically novel view that diplomacy with tyrants can succeed in the absence of a credible threat of force. And now it is Europeans who argue that Americans are the ones who have changed. This might be a good time for self-reflection among Europe’s elites, if they can spare a moment from their mourning."


6 posted on 11/20/2004 7:24:31 AM PST by Grampa Dave (FNC/ABCNNBCBS & the MSM fishwraps are the Rathering Fraudcasters of America!)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: Valin
How can 59,054,087 people be so DUMB?

I thought only about 56 million voted for sKerry? ;-)

7 posted on 11/20/2004 7:31:28 AM PST by Still Thinking
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: Valin
This is one of the arguments that Jefferson was wrong and Hamilton was right. Jefferson argued for France as a big ally, and Hamilton Briton.
8 posted on 11/20/2004 7:31:29 AM PST by In veno, veritas
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: Grampa Dave

If we had demanded repayment for all the lend lease and all the money given to France, Germany, and Great Britian not to mention Russia. We wouldn't have a national debt that would be a 1/4 as large. We have bailed so many countries in the past only to have them spit in our faces afterwards.


9 posted on 11/20/2004 7:34:24 AM PST by snowman1
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 6 | View Replies]

To: Grampa Dave

If we had demanded repayment for all the lend lease and all the money given to France, Germany, and Great Britian not to mention Russia. We wouldn't have a national debt that would be a 1/4 as large. We have bailed so many countries in the past only to have them spit in our faces afterwards.


10 posted on 11/20/2004 7:34:25 AM PST by snowman1
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 6 | View Replies]

To: Grampa Dave

If we had demanded repayment for all the lend lease and all the money given to France, Germany, and Great Britian not to mention Russia. We wouldn't have a national debt that would be a 1/4 as large. We have bailed so many countries in the past only to have them spit in our faces afterwards.


11 posted on 11/20/2004 7:34:25 AM PST by snowman1
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 6 | View Replies]

To: Valin

Good article.


12 posted on 11/20/2004 7:35:40 AM PST by ride the whirlwind
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: snowman1

That is another good reason why not to go to the aid of the Eurotrash nations when their home grown al Qaeda Islamofascists start taking out the Eurotrash wussies.


13 posted on 11/20/2004 7:38:40 AM PST by Grampa Dave (FNC/ABCNNBCBS & the MSM fishwraps are the Rathering Fraudcasters of America!)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 9 | View Replies]

To: Valin

I truely do believe we are witnessing the fall of europe. They not only do not have the will to defend themselves, they actually do not see that they have anything to defend against. I don't think there is anything that can be done to save people who have lost their survival instincts.


14 posted on 11/20/2004 7:40:48 AM PST by McGavin999 (George Soros just learned a very expensive lesson-America can't be bought.)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: Grampa Dave

It appears that the Wahabi/al Qaeda Islamofascists have used their wealth to destroy any core of morality left in Eurotrash land.

If true (and I believe it to be)they found fertile ground.


15 posted on 11/20/2004 7:42:22 AM PST by Valin (Out Of My Mind; Back In Five Minutes)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 6 | View Replies]

To: snowman1

I wonder what would of happened if we had demanded repayment for all the lend lease and all the money given to France, Germany, and Great Britian not to mention Russia.


:-)


16 posted on 11/20/2004 7:44:49 AM PST by Valin (Out Of My Mind; Back In Five Minutes)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 11 | View Replies]

To: Valin

They have found the fertile ground in Euro Trash Land, a lot of the UK, most of Canada and about 40% of Americans who hate America.


17 posted on 11/20/2004 7:47:56 AM PST by Grampa Dave (FNC/ABCNNBCBS & the MSM fishwraps are the Rathering Fraudcasters of America!)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 15 | View Replies]

To: Valin

Excellent article. Good read and makethinker.


18 posted on 11/20/2004 7:48:55 AM PST by crazyhorse691 (We won. We don't need to be forgiving. Let the heads roll!!!!!!!!!)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: Valin
...they are not entitled to embrace nihilism and hedonism as their new religion and then accuse Americans of changing.

Badda Bing. europe has discarded their Judeo-Christian values one at a time, and now are clueless without His guidance.

FMCDH(BITS)

19 posted on 11/20/2004 7:51:59 AM PST by nothingnew (Kerry is gone...perhaps to Lake Woebegone)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: nothingnew

europe has discarded their Judeo-Christian values one at a time


And who's fault is that? Me I blame us(people of faith) for too long we got out of the game.


20 posted on 11/20/2004 7:58:56 AM PST by Valin (Out Of My Mind; Back In Five Minutes)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 19 | View Replies]

To: Valin
Insightful, brief, to the point...Better than most journalists (no offense intended to the REAL journalist out there, however rare you may be).
Thanx (damn nice debate amo...)
21 posted on 11/20/2004 7:59:00 AM PST by Edgerunner (The left ain't right. Hand me that launch pickle...)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: snowman1

yo snowman,
Nice post
Nice post
Nice post

why 3 of the same thing?


22 posted on 11/20/2004 8:05:18 AM PST by Edgerunner (The left ain't right. Hand me that launch pickle...)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 11 | View Replies]

To: Valin
"Rather, it is because Europe has all but abandoned the religious heritage that has served as the moral foundation of Western Civilization for two millenia. Europeans are free, of course, to take their moral guidance from Marx, Nietzsche, Sartre, and Derrida rather than Moses and St. Paul, but they are not entitled to embrace nihilism and hedonism as their new religion and then accuse Americans of changing."

"Americans are reluctant to surrender their national sovereignty to those organizations, especially when their freedom and safety is at stake."

Here the author is WRONG:

"Americans continue to cling to old verities of natural law and natural rights, not least of which is the supreme demand for government based on the consent of the governed. "

We have NEVER been under "natural law". We are still under Judeo Christian principles that are the underpinnings of our LAWS.
23 posted on 11/20/2004 8:09:37 AM PST by nmh (Intelligent people recognize Intelligent Design (God).)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: Grampa Dave

>Europeans who have adopted the historically novel view that diplomacy with tyrants can succeed in the absence of a credible threat of force

Ha. Seems that I remember a British gentleman who thought the same way after giving Hitler what he wanted
Some things haven't changed.

Now, we pulled their nuts out of the fire then, but they have to actually embrace those value systems that they had then, to be able to defend themselves now, and I just don't see it happening without...Oh, hell, I just don't see it happening.

I do not understand the thought process that embraces such lunacy


24 posted on 11/20/2004 8:16:34 AM PST by bill1952 ("All that we do is done with an eye towards something else.")
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 6 | View Replies]

To: snowman1

"If we had demanded repayment for all the lend lease and all the money given to France, Germany, and Great Britian not to mention Russia. We wouldn't have a national debt that would be a 1/4 as large."

You could be right there. But the net effect could have been something like that of a bank that didn't lend money. And would you really have wanted either Stalin or Hitler to have occupied all of Europe, plus the Middle East? - because that would have been one of the risks of not giving lend-lease.

Isn't it a question of how isolationist you want America to be?


25 posted on 11/20/2004 8:23:17 AM PST by Sarvet
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 9 | View Replies]

To: Carry_Okie
When that fifth column couples with the appeasement gene, it's all over for Europe and we will be facing a nuclear armed adversary.

Yup. Most of the western Europeans with brains must've been killed off in the World Wars, and the region is now populated by the progeny of the lame-brains. How else can one explain that they have done everything possible to ensure that Europe will YET AGAIN be the world's battlefield?

26 posted on 11/20/2004 8:24:06 AM PST by Cloud William (Liberals are the crab grass in the lawn of life.)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 3 | View Replies]

To: bill1952

"I do not understand the thought process that embraces such lunacy!"

Lunatics as a group have no logical thought processes.


27 posted on 11/20/2004 8:50:02 AM PST by Grampa Dave (FNC/ABCNNBCBS & the MSM fishwraps are the Rathering Fraudcasters of America!)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 24 | View Replies]

To: Tolik

Consideration for a moral clarity and a nailed it! ping


28 posted on 11/20/2004 8:50:53 AM PST by NonValueAdded ("We are in the process of allowing them to self-actualise" LtC. Rainey, Fallujah, 11/04)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: bill1952

Suggest you read up on Thomas Jefferson for this approach to "natural law"


29 posted on 11/20/2004 8:54:08 AM PST by AntiBurr
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 24 | View Replies]

To: Valin; Alamo-Girl; amom

Great read!


30 posted on 11/20/2004 9:33:28 AM PST by TEXOKIE (Father in Heaven, take command of America and her Mission, her leaders, her people, and her troops!)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: Valin
"And, if so, is it America that changed?"

You Euroweenies have begun to get it. We have changed from a long, dark period of forty years of RAT-induced socialistic sleep brought on by RATs in charge all that time. Now they are no longer in charge and reality time is here. The bad guys are in deep doodoo and they know it. The euros may soon understand that Bush has the majority of the people behind him and he will do what he said he would do to terrorists and solve the RAT's social issues, Social Security as well as fixing the tax code once and for all. Whatta a relief!

31 posted on 11/20/2004 9:39:12 AM PST by Paulus Invictus
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: AntiBurr

I am aware of his writings on natural law, majority rule and minority rights, but I do not see your point.


32 posted on 11/20/2004 11:06:41 AM PST by bill1952 ("All that we do is done with an eye towards something else.")
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 29 | View Replies]

To: TEXOKIE

Thanks for the ping!


33 posted on 11/20/2004 11:17:25 AM PST by Alamo-Girl
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 30 | View Replies]

To: nothingnew
Kerry is gone...perhaps to Lake Woebegone?

No, it couldn't be there; all their children are ABOVE average.

34 posted on 11/20/2004 12:19:55 PM PST by Still Thinking
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 19 | View Replies]

To: snowman1
If we had demanded repayment for all the lend lease and all the money given to France, Germany, and Great Britian..

"Lend-Lease also involved Britain's surrender of her rights and royalties in a series of British technological achievements. Although the British performance in industrial techniques in the inter-war years had been marked by a period of more general decline, the achievements of our scientists and technologists had equalled the most remarkable eras of British inventive greatness. Radar, antibiotics, jet aircraft and British advances in nuclear research had created an industrial revolution all over the developed world. Under Lend-Lease, these inventions were surrendered as part of the inter-Allied war effort, free of any royalty or other payments from the United States. Had Churchill been able to insist on adequate royalties for these inventions, both our wartime and our post-war balance of payments would have been very different."

Harold Wilson, Memoirs: 1916-1964 (1986)

Just another opinion, yes?

35 posted on 11/20/2004 1:17:09 PM PST by Da_Shrimp
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 10 | View Replies]

To: Da_Shrimp
"Had Churchill been able to insist on adequate royalties for these inventions, both our wartime and our post-war balance of payments would have been very different."

Very different indeed. We would not have cooperated and Britain would be a German-speaking northern territory of Grossdeutschland.

36 posted on 11/20/2004 1:30:23 PM PST by FreedomCalls (It's the "Statue of Liberty," not the "Statue of Security.")
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 35 | View Replies]

To: FreedomCalls
Britain would be a German-speaking northern territory of Grossdeutschland.

Oh dear, same old rubbish.

The turning point vis-a-vis Britain becoming part of the German-speaking northern territory of Grossdeutschland was the Battle of Britain in 1940.

What we really needed then were arses on seats, the seats in question being in the cockpits of Hurricanes, Spitfires, Defiants and Beaufighters. We were out-producing Germany in terms of fighter and bomber production in 1940, thanks to our own efforts, but we were short of pilots due to the attrition rate of constant warfare. Our saviours were.. the Poles.

For which 'Dziêkuj¹' to the Polish nation.

37 posted on 11/20/2004 2:50:12 PM PST by Da_Shrimp
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 36 | View Replies]

To: Da_Shrimp

I learn something new every day.


38 posted on 11/20/2004 5:34:06 PM PST by Valin (Out Of My Mind; Back In Five Minutes)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 35 | View Replies]

To: Sarvet

not really as Churchill said after the war "I come not for Silver I come for aluminum I come not for gold I come for steel." And Truman gave the Brits 50 BIL worth.


39 posted on 11/20/2004 6:01:26 PM PST by snowman1
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 25 | View Replies]

To: snowman1

"not really as Churchill said after the war "I come not for Silver I come for aluminum I come not for gold I come for steel." And Truman gave the Brits 50 BIL worth"

Are you sure about that?

The entire lend-lease was "only" $50 billion, and Russia/USSR got the largest single part of that.


40 posted on 11/20/2004 6:22:05 PM PST by Sarvet
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 39 | View Replies]

To: snowman1
Well in the case of Britain your concerns are without foundation. The USA actually received former British colonies, land around the world (for US bases), nuclear secrets and technological knowledge worth more than the Lend Lease plan provided to Britain.

Britain had to pay through the nose for its military equipment and other supplies from America prior to the US joining the war and the Lend-lease agreement carried some nasty "small print":

IN ONE OF HIS FAMOUS SPEECHES Churchill asked America 'Give us the tools and we will finish the job'. But America wouldn't 'give' anything without payment. After two years of war, Roosevelt had drained Britain dry, stripping her of all her assets in the USA, including real estate and property. The British owned Viscose Company, worth £125 million was liquidated, Britain receiving only £87 million. Britain's £1,924 million investments in Canada were sold off to pay for raw materials bought in the United States. To make sure that Roosevelt got his money, he dispatched the American cruiser, 'Louisville ' to the South African naval base of Simonstown to pick up forty two million Pounds worth of British gold, Britain's last negotiable asset, to help pay for American guns and ammunition!. Not content with stripping Britain of her gold and assets, in return for 50 old destroyers, he demanded that Britain transfer all her scientific and technological secrets to the USA. Also, he demanded leases on the islands of Newfoundland, Jamaica, Trinidad and Bermuda for the setting up of American military and naval bases in case Britain should fall. (Of the 50 lend lease destroyers supplied to Britain, 9 were lost during the war)

QUOTE. Lord Beaverbrook was later to exclaim 'The Japanese are our relentless enemies, and the Americans our un-relenting creditors'.

A quote from Harold Wilson's Memoirs: 1916-1964 (1986):

Lend-Lease also involved Britain's surrender of her rights and royalties in a series of British technological achievements. Although the British performance in industrial techniques in the inter-war years had been marked by a period of more general decline, the achievements of our scientists and technologists had equalled the most remarkable eras of British inventive greatness. Radar, antibiotics, jet aircraft and British advances in nuclear research had created an industrial revolution all over the developed world. Under Lend-Lease, these inventions were surrendered as part of the inter-Allied war effort, free of any royalty or other payments from the United States. Had Churchill been able to insist on adequate royalties for these inventions, both our wartime and our post-war balance of payments would have been very different.

The Attlee Government had to face the consequences of this surrender of our technological patrimony, but there was worse to come. Congress had voted Lend-Lease until the end of the war with Germany and Japan and no longer. When the European war ended, most people expected the conflict with Japan to last for another year or so. The atomic bombs on Nagasaki and Hiroshima ended that assumption. Almost within the hour, President Truman, unwillingly no doubt, but without any choice in the matter, notified Attlee that Lend-Lease was being cut off. At that time it was worth £2,000 million a year. There was no possible means of increasing our exports to the United States to earn that sort of sum. Britain was in pawn, at the very time that Attlee was fighting to exert some influence on the postwar European settlement. The only solution was to negotiate a huge American loan, the repayment and servicing of which placed a burden on Britain's balance of payments right into the twenty-first century. (This was the Marshall Plan).

A quote from Anthony Eden's Memoirs: The Reckoning (1965):

Mr. Churchill was continually pressing them to further efforts. He asked, among other things, for the loan of fifty or sixty destroyers, and this scheme was discussed between London and Washington.

The negotiations did not go smoothly, nor did I altogether approve of the details of the final settlement. At one time the suggestion was put forward in Washington that the entire British West Indies should be handed over for the cancellation of our war debts. I thought this less than friendly bargaining. At another, the destroyers were to be exchanged for a public assurance that the British fleet would sail to North American waters if Hitler gained control of the United Kingdom. The Prime Minister rightly protested that such an announcement would have a 'disastrous effect' on British morale. The West Indian bases alone were certainly worth more than fifty or sixty old destroyers.

The sweeping nature of the first American demands caused some delay in the negotiations. Local patriotism in the West Indies was justifiably affronted. By August 14th, however, the agreement was settled, to be ratified at the beginning of the following month. Our desperate straits alone could justify its terms. The age and condition of the fifty destroyers made unexpectedly large demands upon our dockyards. Only nine ships were available before the end of 1940, by which time our own naval construction was catching up on our losses.

By the way, the Marshall plan, (which Britian has paid back), was only extended to Britain after the British government agreed to give all the British Empire's Uranium ore supplies to the USA, which substantially slowed down the production of the first British Atomic bomb. That bomb wasn't tested until October the 3rd, 1952 at Monte Bello Islands, Australia. If Britain hadn't provided the USA with its Uranium ore stocks after WWII then its first A-bomb would have been ready by the time the Soviets got theirs in 1949.

As for spitting in your face, Britain has stood alongside the USA in Iraq and throughout the Cold War.

41 posted on 11/21/2004 10:39:35 AM PST by David Hunter
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 11 | View Replies]

To: Grampa Dave
That is another good reason why not to go to the aid of the Eurotrash nations when their home grown al Qaeda Islamofascists start taking out the Eurotrash wussies

Do you remember posting this? - You were right. 8^)

42 posted on 02/14/2006 2:16:01 PM PST by bill1952 ("All that we do is done with an eye towards something else.")
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 13 | View Replies]

To: bill1952

Thanks for the reminder.

The changing demographics and the politically correctness of the Eurotrash nations are like vice grips closing in on these fools.

Mark Steyn and others have addressed their dismal and near future in recent weeks. Just look at what has happened to Denmark because a few political cartoonists dared to portray the Islamofascists in their true light.


43 posted on 02/14/2006 5:43:03 PM PST by Grampa Dave (The NY Slimes has been committing treason and sedition for decades.)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 42 | View Replies]

Disclaimer: Opinions posted on Free Republic are those of the individual posters and do not necessarily represent the opinion of Free Republic or its management. All materials posted herein are protected by copyright law and the exemption for fair use of copyrighted works.

Free Republic
Browse · Search
News/Activism
Topics · Post Article

FreeRepublic, LLC, PO BOX 9771, FRESNO, CA 93794
FreeRepublic.com is powered by software copyright 2000-2008 John Robinson