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'Hydrogen highway' bad route, group says; Alternative fuel championed by governor flawed
Oakland Tribune ^ | 11/20/04 | Harrison Sheppard

Posted on 11/20/2004 10:02:46 AM PST by SierraWasp

'Hydrogen highway' bad route, group says
Alternative fuel championed by governor flawed, but proponents say give it more time

By Harrison SheppardSACRAMENTO BUREAU

Saturday, November 20, 2004 -

SACRAMENTO -- A report by a libertarian think tank seeks to debunk Gov. Arnold Schwarzenegger's plans for a "hydrogen highway" by claiming hydrogen-fueled vehicles will make little difference in reducing harmful emissions.

The report released this week by the Reason Foundation argues that even while hydrogen itself may be clean-burning, the processes used to manufacture and distribute hydrogen are dirty enough to nearly negate the benefits -- and the cost of conversion isn't worth the difference.

The study instead advocates more conservation, lowering freeway speed limits and making gasoline-powered cars smaller.

"Until we figure out ways to create hydrogen that are less energy-intensive or the performance of hydrogen improves, it's not a good air-quality measure," said Adrian Moore, the study's project director.

State environmental officials concede the study's argument has some merit -- if one only considers the current state of technology. But hydrogen is still an emerging science with rapid advances, and it is expected to be cheaper and more efficient in the future, said Michele St. Martin, spokeswoman for the California Department of Environmental Protection.

Ultimately, she said, the goal is to produce hydrogen through clean, renewable sources such as solar, wind and biomass, rather than natural gas.

"Every day these vehicles coming out are lighter and more fuel-efficient," St. Martin said. "At the end of the day, experts are saying hydrogen-powered vehicles will be at least twice as fuel-efficient as gasoline vehicles."

Earlier this year, Schwarzenegger proposed a "California Hydrogen Highway Network" that would result in a network of up to 200 hydrogen fueling stations on the state's freeways by 2010. The project is expected to cost $75 million to $200 million, with much of the costs picked up by the private sector.

The state has already opened three hydrogen fueling stations -- in Los Angeles, Davis and San Francisco -- and expects to have 18 more open soon, she said. City governments in those regions are using hydrogen cars in pilot programs.

Hydrogen car supporters say they are the clean-burning wave of the future, producing only water, not dirty carbon dioxide, in their exhaust.

The Reason study said it is not the emissions of individual hydrogen vehicles that is troubling, but the way in which hydrogen is produced and distributed. Hydrogen plants would most likely run on natural gas, which results in high emissions of carbon dioxide, the study argues.

The study also notes that converting some vehicles to hydrogen may actually make them greater polluters because hydrogen vehicles are heavier and therefore take more energy to generate the same horsepower.

According to the study, a Hummer H2 that is converted to hydrogen use will be about 1,000 pounds heavier. In order to get the same performance as a gasoline powered Hummer, a greater amount of carbon dioxide will be produced.

Schwarzenegger, who was criticized during the recall campaign for driving a Hummer, promised to convert one of his vehicles to hydrogen.

Last month, he appeared at a press conference at Los Angeles International Airport driving a hydrogen Hummer to open a fueling station there, although it turned out the vehicle was a prototype loaner from General Motors that is not available to the public.

V. John White, an adviser to the Sierra Club on clean-air issues, said he is skeptical of findings by the Reason Foundation because of the group's ideological bias. Hydrogen, he said, is only one part of a multipronged strategy to reduce emissions in California, and the hydrogen field continues to improve.

"The Reason Foundation doesn't accept we're living in a carbon-constrained world, and petroleum is rapidly reaching its peak and will soon begin a long decline," White said. "The alternatives to our addiction to petroleum are important to develop."


TOPICS: Business/Economy; Extended News; News/Current Events
KEYWORDS: energy; energylist; flatulence; hersheyhighway; highway; hydrogen; hydrogenhighway; idiocy
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Another Schwarzenegger Farce!!!
1 posted on 11/20/2004 10:02:48 AM PST by SierraWasp
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To: SierraWasp

More subterfuge. They have completely ignored that fact that hydrogen is ALSO AN ALTERNATIVE TO GASOLINE which would help provide for the added competition and needed supply to meet the demands of a healthy economy.

It is true that cars, that are "smogged" up in California are burning gasoline very cleanly now. But the enviro-whackos cannot say that, since they would be out of a job when it comes to inventing more dirty air....


2 posted on 11/20/2004 10:06:24 AM PST by EagleUSA
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To: snopercod; Dog Gone; Grampa Dave; NormsRevenge; BOBTHENAILER
The Great "Hydrogen Highway" Hold-up!!!

You can't do this economically without nuke power and the EnvironMental Communutty has driven the costs of that out of this world, except in France!!!

Funny how the size of CA's economy is compared to France... kinda makes one wonder...

3 posted on 11/20/2004 10:07:48 AM PST by SierraWasp ("Moderation in the pursuit of justice is no virtue!" - Barry Goldwater when he was in his right mind)
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To: SierraWasp

As with many of the alternative fuels, too many "other" issues are not factored in. Things like in the electric cars, the power generation and the battery disposal issues are ignored.


4 posted on 11/20/2004 10:08:59 AM PST by SouthTexas
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To: SierraWasp

--yeah--this one could make the stem cell farce look like small change--


5 posted on 11/20/2004 10:10:56 AM PST by rellimpank
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To: SierraWasp

But hydrogen is still an emerging science with rapid advances, and it is expected to be cheaper and more efficient in the future, said Michele St. Martin, spokeswoman for the California Department of Environmental Protection.
---

umm... Aren't gasoline engines becoming more and more fuel efficent too. Remember what pollution actually is - wasted energy.


6 posted on 11/20/2004 10:11:45 AM PST by traviskicks (http://www.neoperspectives.com/summary.htm)
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To: SierraWasp

V. John White, an adviser to the Sierra Club on clean-air issues, said he is skeptical of findings by the Reason Foundation because of the group's ideological bias.
---

Attacking character instead of their arguments AGAIN!


7 posted on 11/20/2004 10:13:40 AM PST by traviskicks (http://www.neoperspectives.com/summary.htm)
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To: SouthTexas

Oxides of nitrogen will be created by internal combustion, a major component of acid rain, hence, the envirals will always have something to whine about, no matter how clean the fuel burns, nor its availibility.


8 posted on 11/20/2004 10:15:50 AM PST by glock rocks (taxes lower, door locked, gun loaded.)
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To: SierraWasp
Hydrogen will do what nuclear power has already done -- displace oil as an energy source; saving it for petrochemical feedstock. Replacing gasoline will happen when the consumers are faced with high enough prices for gasoline that make other fuels viable options. Someone has to break ground to make hydrogen a viable alternative. If it is too expensive, don't buy it.
9 posted on 11/20/2004 10:34:38 AM PST by sefarkas (why vote Democrate-lite???)
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To: SierraWasp

I wonder what this will do to General Motors' plan to have a competitively priced fuel cell car on the highways by 2010?


10 posted on 11/20/2004 10:36:41 AM PST by matchwood
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To: SierraWasp
In discussions with my environmentalist friends and relatives, many of them react to the news that hydrogen isn't really a fuel--simply an energy storage medium, like a battery--with shocked disbelief. This reflects the poor quality of science education in government schools and the unblinking credulity of people determined to believe that "big oil" is the only reason we consume fossil fuels. Unless environmentalists are willing to start burning uranium, hydrogen is going to be produced by natural gas on a small scale, and later, by coal.
11 posted on 11/20/2004 10:54:16 AM PST by FredZarguna (Free markets. Free Speech. Free Minds. But no Free Lunch.)
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To: SierraWasp

Kaleefornyuns sure do have lots of money to burn.

Meanwhile, innocent unborn face murder for medical research...


12 posted on 11/20/2004 10:56:44 AM PST by karenbarinka (Trust no one who slandered Mel or Passion)
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To: traviskicks

I am sceptical of the Sierra Club and don't trust their
opinions.


13 posted on 11/20/2004 10:57:46 AM PST by upcountryhorseman (An old fashioned conservative)
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To: traviskicks

I am sceptical of the Sierra Club and don't trust their
opinions.


14 posted on 11/20/2004 10:57:58 AM PST by upcountryhorseman (An old fashioned conservative)
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To: EagleUSA; NormsRevenge; farmfriend; calcowgirl; Amerigomag; tubebender; hedgetrimmer; forester; ...
My reason for posting this is... A supposedly "Republican" Governor slipped into office through an unprecedented and historic Recall election, only to foist on us the very dubious crappola the extreme leftist Whackos have tried to corner everyone with for decades!!!

At the very time he's at the Republican National Convention wowing FReepers with his "what a Republican is..." speech, he's signed a bill to work toward locking up all the private land in 1/5th of CA and blowing smoke up everyone's differential about the "Hydrogen Highway!"

Can't anyone here see how totally absurd Arnold truly is in his bad-acting roll as a "Republican?" Would any of you do business with such a huge "bait and switch" artist? Or would you call the DA and have him charged with GRAND LARCENY???

I want some credible answers from consistent conservative FReepers, right here and right now!!!

15 posted on 11/20/2004 11:00:31 AM PST by SierraWasp ("Moderation in the pursuit of justice is no virtue!" - Barry Goldwater when he was in his right mind)
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To: SierraWasp

Oh and I thought the hydrogen thing was to get off the oil teat. Screw the environment, if I can't drive around in a Hindenburg then I want a friggin nuclear reactor under the hood.


16 posted on 11/20/2004 11:01:23 AM PST by Rightwing Conspiratr1 (Lock-n-load!)
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To: Rightwing Conspiratr1
...if I can't drive around in a Hindenburg then I want a friggin nuclear reactor under the hood.

In that case, check this dealer out, I think he's based in Macon, GA:
(No Money Down--Chuck Berry, as modified by Duane Allman)

As I was motivatin'
Back towards town
I saw a Cadillac sign
Sayin' "No Money Down"
So I eased on my brakes
And I pulled in the drive
Gunned my motor twice
Then I walked inside
Dealer came to me
Said "Trade in you Ford
And I'll put you in a car
That'll eat up the road
Just tell me what you want
And then sign on that line
And I'll have it brought down to you
In a hour's time"

I'm gonna get me a car
And I'll be headed on down the road
Then I won't have to worry
About that broken - down, raggedy ol' Ford

"Well Mister I want a yellow convertible
Four - door de Ville
With a Continental spare
And a wide chrome wheel
I want power steering
And power brakes
I want a powerful motor
With a jet off - take
I want air condition
I want automatic heat
And I want a full Murphy bed
In my back seat
I want short - wave radio
I want a color TV and a phone
So I can call up my baby
When I'm ridin' alone"

Yes I'm gonna get that car
And I'm gonna head on down the road
Yeah, then I won't have to worry
About that broken - down, raggedy ol' Ford

"I want four carburetors
And two straight exhausts
I want a nuclear reactor
An' I don't care it costs

I want a railroad air horn
And a military spot
And I want a five - year guarantee
On everything I got
I want ten - dollar deductible
I want a twenty dollar note
I want thirty thousand liability"
That's all she wrote

I got me a car
And I'm headed on down the road
No money down
I don't have to worry
About that broken - down, raggedy ol' Ford

17 posted on 11/20/2004 11:11:38 AM PST by FredZarguna (Free markets. Free Speech. Free Minds. But no Free Lunch.)
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To: SierraWasp
V. John White, an adviser to the Sierra Club on clean-air issues, said he is skeptical of findings by the Reason Foundation because of the group's ideological bias.

???

HAW, HAW, HAW, HAW, HAW, HAW, HAW!!!

18 posted on 11/20/2004 11:30:10 AM PST by Carry_Okie (The environment is too complex and too important to be managed by central planning.)
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To: SierraWasp
Can't anyone here see how totally absurd Arnold truly is in his bad-acting roll as a "Republican?"

Yes.

Would any of you do business with such a huge "bait and switch" artist?

No.

I want some credible answers from consistent conservative FReepers, right here and right now!!!

Some credible Freepers have been posting supporting arguments for over a year now to expose the folly. But the drum beats on. I'm glad to see the Reason Foundation aid in exposing the Hydrogen boondoggle... now they need to Follow-The-Money!

19 posted on 11/20/2004 11:47:24 AM PST by calcowgirl
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To: SierraWasp
The fundamental problem is that hydrogen isn't an "alternative fuel." It's an energy distribution an storage system. Hydrogen will always cost more energy to produce than you recover by "burning" it in either an internal combustion engine or in a fuel cell (The Second Law of Thermodynamics always wins). At present, and for the foreseeable future, the total cost of infrastructure and production for a "hydrogen highway" will be more than all but the most dedicated enviros will be willing or able to afford.
20 posted on 11/20/2004 11:52:27 AM PST by nuke_road_warrior (Making the world safe for nuclear power for over 20 years)
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To: SierraWasp

Here is their report. I browsed through it. Interesting.
http://www.rppi.org/ps322.pdf


21 posted on 11/20/2004 11:56:07 AM PST by traviskicks (http://www.neoperspectives.com/summary.htm)
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To: SierraWasp

I read that there are trillions of tiny wormholes amongst us. If someone can find a way the exploit the energy, a small amount is enough to boil the ocean's water. Someone should develop quantum energy. It would end pollution problems and would be very potent.


22 posted on 11/20/2004 12:24:21 PM PST by Ptarmigan (Proud rabbit hater and killer)
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To: SierraWasp


Where is this Reason report? Is it online? I didn't see it on their site. Link, anyone? Thanks.


23 posted on 11/20/2004 12:48:31 PM PST by Timm
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To: traviskicks


Thanks. Ignore my last post!


24 posted on 11/20/2004 12:49:13 PM PST by Timm
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To: Ptarmigan
Art Bell!!! Is that you???

Sorry... (but beam me up, Ptarmigan!) (and at warp speed, mind you!!) (where's that danged stargate?) (Is it the year 3100 yet?) (help! git me outa this backwards 21st century!!!) (I musta missed the bridge! Did you say it was in Hope, Arkansas?) (wur's that danged pissant that burnt that dang bridge?)

Hay! I'ma still waitin fer that Guberner of CA ta rip open his shirt an show us the "S" on his chest!!! (snort!)

I'm REALLY waitin for thought transportation... just think about Orion's Belt and SHAZZAM!!! You're THERE before you can quit thinkin about it!!! (far out, huh?) (Oh well...)

25 posted on 11/20/2004 12:50:53 PM PST by SierraWasp ("Moderation in the pursuit of justice is no virtue!" - Barry Goldwater when he was in his right mind)
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To: SierraWasp
Ballard and the great Fuel $ell $aga
The basic concept for fuel cells was discovered in 1839.

But 164 years later, the alluring prospect of replacing the internal combustion engine with devices that generate electricity from an environmentally benign chemical reaction still lies far in the future.

In the meantime, though, Firoz Rasul found a way to make lots of money from fuel-cell technology. The former head of fuel-cell pioneer Ballard Power Systems Inc. of Burnaby, B.C., who stepped down as CEO last month but remains as chairman, sold or transferred some $30 million worth of Ballard shares to family trusts and charities over the past three years.

During his 15-year tenure as CEO, Rasul was also handsomely compensated in salary and bonuses, managing at least once to appear atop the list of Canada's best-paid CEOs. In 2001, he collected $9.9 million in pay. Rasul's haul in 2002 was $5.9 million. Included in that sum, Ballard said last week, was a tripling in Rasul's bonus because of his success in meeting goals he had set for himself, such as the development of a five-year business plan.

Ballard is the sort of company where the CEO not only gets extra marks for planning ahead, but is compensated in line with Big Five bank chairmen in a year in which his company's stock plummeted 48 per cent and the annual loss deepened to $148 million, bringing to $403 million Ballard's total losses over the past four years.

(snip)

Toronto Star, Apr. 27, 2002

Enriching themselves
CEOs often pocket outrageous sums regardless of how company performs

(snip)

Firoz Rasul heads Ballard Power Systems Inc. of Burnaby, B.C., a developer of fuel cells that has never turned an annual profit. The publicly traded firm has racked up total losses of $196.6 million (Canadian) in the past three years, culminating in a loss of $96.2 million last year alone. Just the same, Rasul last year earned a bonus of $191,314 on top of his salary of $551,248, even as the company was laying off 200 employees in a productivity drive.

Canadian Corporate News, Oct 2, 2001
Ballard Acquires XCELLSIS Fuel Cell Engines and Ecostar Electric Drive Systems
from DaimlerChrysler and Ford, DaimlerChrysler and Ford increase commitment and investment in Ballard

(snip)

* Ballard's leading position in fuel cell intellectual property will be extended from 550 patents issued or pending to over 1,200 patents issued or pending, covering almost 500 distinct inventions.

Canada.com, March 7, 2004

Hydrogen fuel-cell goals moving closer, industry insiders believe

(snip) Coincidentally, Firoz Rasul, chairman of Ballard Power Systems Ltd., the Vancouver fuel-cell pioneer, this year took over the rotating chairmanship of the California Fuel Cell Partnership, the small but influential business-government coalition that helps set the development agenda globally.

Rasul says he expects to meet with Gov. Arnold Schwarzenegger next month about beginning the $200-million project, a key piece of infrastructure needed to make fuel cell-powered vehicles practical.

BLD.TO   BALLARD POWER SYSTEMS INC   Toronto 
BLDP     Ballard Power Systems Inc   NasdaqNM 






26 posted on 11/20/2004 12:54:08 PM PST by calcowgirl
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To: SierraWasp
"The study instead advocates more conservation, lowering freeway speed limits and making gasoline-powered cars smaller."

Hey Waspman! This is ignorant, too!! We don't need them Jimmy Carter speed limits back... If we conserve, they'll just slap us with a "per mile" tax... And switchin to Yugo's will just get our loved ones KILLED!!!

Who do they think they're kiddin??? Looks like themselves, to me!!!

27 posted on 11/20/2004 12:55:59 PM PST by SierraWasp ("Moderation in the pursuit of justice is no virtue!" - Barry Goldwater when he was in his right mind)
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To: SierraWasp
CO2 emissions are a silly reason to build a massive and expensive hydrogen infrastructure.

In the longer term, something other than gasoline will have to provide transportation energy. Natural gas can substitute for gasoline better than exotic fuels like hydrogen, but natural gas supplies won't last a lot longer than oil supplies, either.

Eventually, better chemical battery technology will have to appear for electric cars, or, perhaps, hydrogen fuel might be used to power cars. Or, it could be that people of the future will have to make do with less good vehicles than the ones we've got.

28 posted on 11/20/2004 1:00:35 PM PST by Timm
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To: SierraWasp

Did you say tax by mile?

State will test tax on mileage (Oregon)
http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/1284813/posts


29 posted on 11/20/2004 1:10:28 PM PST by calcowgirl
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To: SierraWasp
I've ridden (hours) in hydrogen-powered vehicles including those from Daimler-Chrysler, Toyota, Nissan, Volkswagon, Honda, GM and Hyundai. I've spoken with some of the engineers.

These vehicles are not all the same technology. They're not all on the same level of maturity either. GM, actually, was one of the best, with great power. Toyota, imho, had the edge with its retrofitted 4Runner. Hyundai retrofitted a Santa Fe. These aren't crap-boxes like GM's electric failure the EV-1. These are production SUVs but with a different powerplant.

With tens of millions of motor vehicles clogging the roads, California *MUST* think differently and I believe Arnold, who supports hydrogen as does President Bush, is doing the right thing. It's the *hot* technology among car companies' R&D and "big oil" companies as well. The West Sacramento hydrogen station is owned by BP, ChevronTexaco, Exxonmobil, Shell Hydrogen, Air Products and Praxair.

I thought we were FOR that kind of pro-business, pro-market, pro-innovation solution? The hydrogen can be sourced from fossil fuels like petroleum and natural gas but there are other possibilities including solar, wind or water power. There's also coal and biomass. This is a great potential: distribution of the source of hydrogen across a wide variety of source technologies. And we can do this *at home* and not have to be beholden to OPEC and other Mid-East interests for an eternity. This technology potentially underscores our sovereignty.

The Cities of Los Angeles & San Francisco actually have hydrogen powered vehicles (Hondas) in their fleet TODAY. Toyota & Honda have hydrogen R&D facilities located in Torrance and partnerships with UC Davis and UC Irvine.

There's no secret that there are really two sticking points: the battery technology (also an issue for electric and gas/electric hybrids) still can use work and manufacturing hydrogen for use as fuel can continue pollution problems. BUT there are many ways to extract the hydrogen. Check Shell Hydrogen's website here. Look at ChevronTexaco's here

Read about the California Fuel Cell Partnership. This is Arnold (and Bush), along with "Big Oil" and "Big Auto" thinking AHEAD for California, for Californians and for America in general along with Japan, German, Canada and other nations, rather than being stuck in the oil-warfare laden past. We should push AHEAD and support the "Hydrogen Economy" efforts by private business, academics and incentives from government.

30 posted on 11/20/2004 1:12:02 PM PST by newzjunkey ("The rule of law has become confused with - indeed subverted by - the rule of judges." - Robert Bork)
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To: SierraWasp

Is that Tommy McClintock I spy under the desk?


31 posted on 11/20/2004 1:13:01 PM PST by newzjunkey ("The rule of law has become confused with - indeed subverted by - the rule of judges." - Robert Bork)
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To: calcowgirl
Ballard is just *one* fuel cell provider but I expect you know that already.

Most of the auto manufacturers have developed their own technology, licensed from another auto-maker or obtained other partners.

32 posted on 11/20/2004 1:17:24 PM PST by newzjunkey ("The rule of law has become confused with - indeed subverted by - the rule of judges." - Robert Bork)
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To: SierraWasp
What happens when one of these hydrogen cars wraps around a telephone pole, or two or three at once are involved in a smashup. What happens to all that hydrogen.Does it explode? Does it escape upward to"create" nebulous Ozone holes???
33 posted on 11/20/2004 1:17:52 PM PST by timestax
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To: sefarkas
....displace oil as an energy source;...

Where are you gonna get the energy to make, store and distribute the hydrogen? Have you done and energy balance to compare hydrogen to fossil fuel? How does it compare?

34 posted on 11/20/2004 1:21:09 PM PST by stboz
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To: SierraWasp

" Michele St. Martin, spokeswoman for the California Department of Environmental Protection.


Ultimately, she said, the goal is to produce hydrogen through clean, renewable sources such as solar, wind and biomass, rather than natural gas. "

I wonder why she didn't mention nuclear?


35 posted on 11/20/2004 1:23:52 PM PST by WildTurkey
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To: Timm
Natural gas can substitute for gasoline better than exotic fuels like hydrogen, but natural gas supplies won't last a lot longer than oil supplies, either.

Natural gas is SH!T for fuel economy whether in buses or half-ton trucks. It's also not really as "clean" as has been sold to the public consciousness.

Natural gas, however, *can* be a source for hydrogen. So could coal, wind power, water power, solar power, biofuels, and so forth. Because it's elemental, abundant it is a good common denominator "fuel" because the potential sources are so varied and the more sources possible, the larger the fuel capacity we will have to use long-term. No more being held hostage by OPEN.

36 posted on 11/20/2004 1:23:57 PM PST by newzjunkey ("The rule of law has become confused with - indeed subverted by - the rule of judges." - Robert Bork)
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To: newzjunkey
Ballard is just *one* fuel cell provider but I expect you know that already.

I am aware of that. Ballard is however, holder of an extraordinary amount of patents and they are also the ones that have common leadership with the California Fuel Cell Partnership (to which you even included a link in your post). Firoz and his buddies have been living a rich life, thanks to generous government 'leaders' who 'invest' in the technology. The company shareholders have all lost.

37 posted on 11/20/2004 1:24:23 PM PST by calcowgirl
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To: timestax
What happens when one of these hydrogen cars wraps around a telephone pole, or two or three at once are involved in a smashup. What happens to all that hydrogen.Does it explode? Does it escape upward to"create" nebulous Ozone holes???
38 posted on 11/20/2004 1:32:34 PM PST by timestax
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To: pocat

ping


39 posted on 11/20/2004 1:38:11 PM PST by timestax
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To: newzjunkey
Natural gas, however, *can* be a source for hydrogen. So could coal, wind power, water power, solar power, biofuels, and so forth. Because it's elemental, abundant it is a good common denominator "fuel" because the potential sources are so varied and the more sources possible, the larger the fuel capacity we will have to use long-term. No more being held hostage by OPEN.

I take it you mean OPEC. Anyway, yeah, if we can generate electricity cheaply enough then we can make use of hydrogen from a lot of sources economically.

However, it's much cheaper to use natural gas as a fuel in ICE engines than to use it as a source for hydrogen, which is then used in vehicles. Natural gas is less energy dense than gasoline, that's true-- but so is hydrogen! And not by a small amount, either.

40 posted on 11/20/2004 1:43:11 PM PST by Timm
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To: FredZarguna
Unless environmentalists are willing to start burning uranium

Regardless of what the envirnonmentalists say today, we will burn uranium evenutally.

41 posted on 11/20/2004 1:43:57 PM PST by TigerTale ("An America that is a force for democratic change is a very dangerous foe indeed."--Victor D. Hansen)
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To: TigerTale

bttt


42 posted on 11/20/2004 1:56:48 PM PST by timestax
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To: SierraWasp
If we could just return to living in harmony with nature like in the utopian past...

...you know, back to the time not so long ago when humans didn't wear underwear and lived short, miserable lives of unspeakable, backbreaking labor, disease, and squalor...

Yeah, that's the ticket!

43 posted on 11/20/2004 2:28:28 PM PST by snopercod (Inflation, it's how wars are paid for.)
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To: newzjunkey
With tens of millions of motor vehicles clogging the roads, California *MUST* think differently

How will hydrogen help unclog roads? Hybrids are a successful transition technology and don't require multi-billion dollar government "investment" in infrastructure. The next logical step is to embed induction coils in select highways so hybrids can burn less and less gasoline. This could also act as a track so cars could join into virtual trains. Now that would do something about clogged roads.

44 posted on 11/20/2004 2:32:11 PM PST by Reeses
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To: SierraWasp

"I want some credible answers from consistent conservative..."
=====
Well, Arnold has not been at it long enough to be judged...certainly some of the things he will do, and how he will do them, may or may not be to our liking (as a resident of California) but he has a mandate. He will be judged on whether or not he fixes the state's problems.

If he fails to do that, he will be working hard on Terminator 4. Time will tell -- I am cutting him some slack since he was handed a very large bucket of horse excrement to deal with.


45 posted on 11/20/2004 2:51:18 PM PST by EagleUSA
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To: TigerTale
Regardless of what the envirnonmentalists say today, we will burn uranium evenutally.

I hope that's true. Given the degree of misinformation, disinformation, and outright lies about nuclear power I'm not hopeful that we'll get there before oil hits, say $200 per barrel. Like to be wrong, but when you say "nuclear power" to most Americans in the 21st century you as well be talking about giving the "evil eye" to medieval peasants.

46 posted on 11/20/2004 3:06:26 PM PST by FredZarguna (Free markets. Free Speech. Free Minds. But no Free Lunch.)
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To: SierraWasp; EagleUSA; traviskicks; sefarkas; FredZarguna; Rightwing Conspiratr1; ...
I am reposting the following information that I had previously posted on from another thread (Winning the Maglev race) It is somewhat related to this thread since it concerns the production and transportation of hydrogen as well as reducing congestion of traffic:

(As I try to post this, I am unable to reach the website referenced below. If you are unable to connect, try again later when hopefully the DNS problem will have been resolved)

Something I have come across on the internet is the Interstate Traveler Project. It combines Maglev rail travel with utility transportation (i.e. water, natural gas, electricity, fiber optics, high temperature superconducting cable, hydrogen, etc.). The entire length of the rail system is covered with solar power panels (each mile of rail producing about 844,800 watts of electricity per hour at peak time). Meaning that a 100 mile long installation supporting 8.4 million square feet of solar cells would generates about 84 megawatts per hour peak time.  Additionally, the rail system can be used for producing hydrogen (using utility substations) and clean water.  A rail the length of 100 miles would produce over 33,000 kg of hydrogen per hour at peak time, the energy equivalent of about 33,000 gallons of gasoline.

All controls for the Conduit Cluster system would be managed using a control system similar to the TCP/IP technology used for the internet giving real-time control and monitoring of every car on the system, every watt of electricity, every cubic meter of hydrogen, and every gallon of clean water produced by the hydrogen fuel cells, and everything else in the conduit cluster. 

The rail system  is designed to work within the right of way of the existing U.S. highway systems and other permissible right of ways (including unused train right of ways). It is also built into the design to transport passengers in their own automobiles for greater mobility options.  Both the Michigan and Oklahoma Houses of Representatives and the Michigan Senate have begun to support the Interstate Traveler Project within their respective states.

The founder of the company has hired former House representative Republican Richard Chrysler (104th congress Michigan's 8th district) as CEO. A newspaper article about the company and it's plans can be read here.



47 posted on 11/20/2004 3:25:17 PM PST by CellPhoneSurfer
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To: SierraWasp

The gubinator needs to suffer from a "Total Recall". JMO. Blackbird.


48 posted on 11/20/2004 3:32:23 PM PST by BlackbirdSST
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To: EagleUSA

But is it a BETTER alternative? If so, why aren't companies producing them and people buying them without government interference?

Oh, wait, because you have to have government interference in the market to remain competitive, right? Like the Prius, which would only sell with government subsidy--NOT!

Going to hydrogen would a big waste of money that wouldn't do squat to solve energy problems. It'd just create more. It doesn't do squat to solve pollution problems--the pollution just moves to the new power plants we'd need to build to make hydrogen, and burning hydrogen creates pollution of a different sort anyway. It doesn't do squat to solve our infrastructure issues--it would require paying for a whole new infrastructure just for hydrogen!

Let the market solve the problem. If consumers think there is one, they'll invest in what they consider the best solution to the problem.


49 posted on 11/20/2004 3:46:36 PM PST by LibertarianInExile (NO BLOOD FOR CHOCOLATE! Get the UN-ignoring, unilateralist Frogs out of Ivory Coast!)
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To: Timm

Less good is bad.


50 posted on 11/20/2004 4:18:41 PM PST by Old Professer
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