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The Swifties Real Victory
Opinion Editorials ^ | Nov. 20, 2004 | Jane Novak

Posted on 11/20/2004 2:11:56 PM PST by FairOpinion

The election is over but the bickering never stopped. Some voters are suffering from "post election stress disorder." Pundits and partisans are stepping up to next face-off: judicial appointments. Yet the country has united on one issue: Vietnam.

Ernest Lefever described the American attitude toward Vietnam: "The two diametrically opposed interpretations of Vietnam continue to vie for the American psyche. Until the issue is resolved, we will suffer from a kind of historical schizophrenia."

The parade of Vietnam Veterans across the stage at the Democrats National Convention received a standing ovation, the first of its kind from the protesting class. The Democrats saw John Kerry's Vietnam service as his most attractive quality. Some countered that Kerry's activities in the 1970's maligned two million American service members. The Swift Boat Veterans questioned if John Kerry's service was as honorable as that of his peers. But all agreed that Vietnam Veterans are national heroes, an admission long overdue by the Left.

John O'Neill shined a spotlight into the shadows and declared: We are not the war criminals John Kerry described. In his 1971 Senate testimony, Kerry had quoted hearsay from an anti-war conference, charging widespread atrocities and American war crimes. None of the testimony was ever verified. Several participants were proven to be impostors.

Forty years later, John Kerry "reporting for duty" exuded pride in his Vietnam service. He had no apology for the fellow soldiers he had described as "a generation of monsters," no explanation to the POWs for advocating a unilateral withdrawal of American forces.

America remembered how Vietnam Vets were treated. "My father had red paint poured on him when he came back from Viet Nam." Dave, now an Army Reservist, recounted. "You can't live a normal life when you're being spit on, when you have bags of feces thrown at you, or when some idiot is dumping red paint on you or calling you a baby killer."

Vietnam Veterans were personified as damaged victims and drug crazed social failures. Yet suicide rates, drug abuse rates and incarceration rates are no higher for Vietnam Vets than for non-vets, Mackubin Thomas Owens reports. In fact, 91% were "glad they had served their country." Broadcasting their proud faces, John O'Neill showed America that the crazed brother hidden in the attic is really the neighboring Grampa who shovels out the old ladies when it snows.

Like looking at a fun house mirror, America saw a reflection of itself distorted by time yet true today. The Iraq war is like Vietnam: O'Neill and his comrades, decorated veterans, pointed out the similarities.

The Media: The Swift Vets prompted a reexamination of the role of the media in undermining national will. The 1968 Tet Offensive, a US victory, was proclaimed a disaster by Walter Cronkite: "For it seems now more certain than ever that the bloody experience of Vietnam is to end in a stalemate."

Cronkite's pessimistic analysis is similar to the current media's declaration of quagmire two weeks into the Afghan War and at the first dust storm in Iraq. CBS's Harry Smith, like many of his colleagues, believes "we’re sinking deeper into the sand in Iraq." Now like then, some prominent journalists are champions of failure.

The Policy: In time, the once discredited domino theory gained new legitimacy when clusters of countries tipped to democracy, 120 in 40 years, while Indochina and the Middle East remained enclaves of brutal authoritarianism.

It became clear that the modern fascism of Wahabbism and Diobandism is spawned in repressive states, that terrorism has less to do with economic poverty than with political poverty. A free Iraq for a safer America is a statement that has credibility in the 21st century.

The Aftermath: In a 1971 debate with John O’Neill, Kerry discussed his proposed policy: “I realize that there would be certain political assassinations, and that might take place…. then I think to talk about four or five thousand people is lunacy in terms of the overall argument.” There were a hundred thousand immediate political assassinations.

A million died. A million fled. A million were imprisoned. These were the civilians American soldiers were working to protect, the Communism they were fighting to destroy.

The Hard Left, urging a quick exit from Iraq, appears to have as little regard for the Iraqis who stand with the US today. After reviewing the aftermath of withdrawal from Vietnam, others renewed their determination to prevail in Iraq.

Recently, pundits asked: "Why are we refighting the Vietnam War when there's a real war on?" America is coming to see one war, from World War One to Iraq War, an ongoing battle for the continued existence of America, in defense of the democratic political system. A wiser America has incorporated the lessons of Vietnam and is not swayed by the media bias, understanding both the Iraq policy and the consequences of its abandonment. The Vietnam Veterans deserve the same place of honor and gratitude as the doughboys and the flyboys. This is the new national consensus. We have the Swift Boat Veterans For Truth to thank for this new national unity, long over due.

Jane Novak is a New Jersey based political analyst and commentator in the US and Middle East. She maintains the blog armiesofliberation.com

Works Cited:

Vietnams Ghosts by Ernest Lefever http://www.eppc.org/publications/pubID.95/pub_detail.asp

Patriotism and the lack thereof: Ragin Dave http://www.4rwws.blogspot.com/2004_09_05_4rwws_archive.html#109449619572899214

Walter Cronkite broadcast: http://www.richmond.edu/~ebolt/history398/Cronkite_1968.html

Media Research Center: http://www.mediaresearch.org/cyberalerts/2004/cyb20041110.asp#2

Harry Smith quote: http://www.mrc.org/notablequotables/2004/nq20041011.asp

Mackubin Thomas Owens "But Was It True" National Review Feb 23, 2004 pg 34-39

Kerry Quote: http://www2.swiftvets.com/index.php?topic=KerryONeill


TOPICS: Editorial; Politics/Elections
KEYWORDS: americanheros; dishonorabledischarg; fauxmedals; godblessourveterans; ichabodcrane; kerrydefeat; lurchaintnohero; swiftboatveterans; swiftees; swifties; swiftvets; veterans; vietnam; vietnamveterans
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Thank you Swifties.

You, and all who fought in Vietnam have been vindicated.

1 posted on 11/20/2004 2:11:57 PM PST by FairOpinion
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To: FairOpinion

BTTT Dittos!


2 posted on 11/20/2004 2:15:34 PM PST by Matchett-PI (All DemocRATS are either religious moral relativists, libertines or anarchists.)
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To: FairOpinion

It made me ill when Kerry did that ludicrious hand salute and said, Reporting for Duty. The real heros are the ones who didn't backstab their country and fellow Vietnam vets. John O'Neill is sterling and Kerry pales in comparison. The Dems should give him up, he's used goods.


3 posted on 11/20/2004 2:16:54 PM PST by outofhere2
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To: FairOpinion

I’m convinced that band of 250 saved the presidency from the movement that fought them in Vietnam. You know who you are. Thank you!


4 posted on 11/20/2004 2:17:27 PM PST by elfman2
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To: outofhere2; FairOpinion

The Swifties once again answered their country's call to duty.


5 posted on 11/20/2004 2:18:12 PM PST by ClintonBeGone (Sometimes it's OK for even a Wolverine to root for a Buckeye win.)
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To: elfman2

I agree.

I think if it weren't for the Swifties, we would indeed have President Kerry -- shudder!


6 posted on 11/20/2004 2:19:02 PM PST by FairOpinion (Thank you Swifties, POWs & Vets. We couldn't have done it without you.)
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To: FairOpinion; ALOHA RONNIE; Ragtime Cowgirl; mhking; Vets_Husband_and_Wife; ...

"The Vietnam Veterans deserve the same place of honor and gratitude as the doughboys and the flyboys. This is the new national consensus. We have the Swift Boat Veterans For Truth to thank for this new national unity, long over due."


7 posted on 11/20/2004 2:22:08 PM PST by JLO
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To: FairOpinion

Brilliant column.

Many thanks for posting.


8 posted on 11/20/2004 2:22:15 PM PST by karenbarinka (Trust no one who slandered Mel or Passion)
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To: FairOpinion; 68-69TonkinGulfYachtClub

Amen! I am so grateful to John O'neill and all the vets who worked so hard to get the TRUTH out and expose the true Kerry (and old media)...Still undermining our troops and our mission after all these years.


9 posted on 11/20/2004 2:22:36 PM PST by MEG33 ( Congratulations President Bush!..Thank you God. Four More Years!)
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To: FairOpinion
My state has a veterans auto plate that can be customized to branch of service and campaign. I'm seriously considering getting one next time my registration is due.

Celebrate November 2, 2004 -- May it always be known as Vietnam Veterans Victory Day!

10 posted on 11/20/2004 2:23:09 PM PST by CedarDave (Served with pride alongside the Swifties, USCG patrol boat, Coastal Division 13, Viet Nam, 1967-68.)
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To: FairOpinion
Each and every Swifty deserves our utmost thanks!

The amount of damage and grave harm they helped save this country from is beyond calculation. It might have taken us 20 years to recover from 4 years of Flipper and Friends.
11 posted on 11/20/2004 2:23:21 PM PST by AmericaUnited
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To: FairOpinion

In only post election distress syndrome were fatal!!


12 posted on 11/20/2004 2:24:46 PM PST by RWCon
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To: FairOpinion

John O'Neill and his Band of Brothers:

We salute you.


13 posted on 11/20/2004 2:24:56 PM PST by Senator Goldwater
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To: FairOpinion

Thank You SwiftVets. Nov 2 should be your holiday.


14 posted on 11/20/2004 2:28:45 PM PST by mowowie
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To: FairOpinion
John Kerry...a man who claims to be a hero in a war that he claims to be a mistake.

Thank you swifties.
15 posted on 11/20/2004 2:30:04 PM PST by stylin19a (Marines - filling up the Iraq Tomb of the Unknown Soldier)
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To: FairOpinion

God bless the Swifties.


16 posted on 11/20/2004 2:30:56 PM PST by Angry Republican (yvan eht nioj!)
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To: FairOpinion

17 posted on 11/20/2004 2:32:39 PM PST by agitator (...And that no man might buy or sell, save he that had the mark)
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To: FairOpinion
A terrible wrong has been righted as much as is possible. Who knew John sKerry would have a big ugly hand in that. I'd thank him if it didn't stick in my throat.
18 posted on 11/20/2004 2:35:16 PM PST by Oreo Kookey (How, indeed, do we click our tongues at beheadings and look the other way from abortion? I weep.)
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To: FairOpinion

I shudder to think of what would have happened if not for the SwiftVets. We truly dodged a bullet 11-2 and we owe them our deepest gratitude.


19 posted on 11/20/2004 2:39:23 PM PST by REDWOOD99
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To: FairOpinion; 68-69TonkinGulfYachtClub

Good article here. Thanks FairOpinion.


20 posted on 11/20/2004 2:40:29 PM PST by BIGLOOK (I once opposed keelhauling but have recently come to my senses.)
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To: FairOpinion; BKO; campfollower; Calpernia; VOA; risk; Ragtime Cowgirl; Mia T; kristinn; ...

.


Whereas...


...WALTER CRONKITE has called for our Southern States to secede from our United States Union and to form a country all their very own...


and whereas...


...JOHN KERRY came back from Vietnam to call us American Soldiers fighting for Freedom there...

...rapists and terrorists who cut off heads and ears
http://www.TheAlamoFILM.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=1320


and whereas...


MEL GIBSON came back from filming our real Vietnam War story titled .."WE WERE SOLDIERS".. very deeply inspired to finally make his long planned ultimate story of LOVE and Sacrifice titled...

..."The PASSION of the Christ"..


...don't you have to wonder...

...just who's been on our side...

...and who hasn't been...

...all along..????



Signed:.."ALOHA RONNIE" Guyer
Veteran-"WE WERE SOLDIERS" Battle of IA DRANG-1965, Landing Zone Falcon

(Movie Websites)
http://www.WeWereSoldiers.com
http://www.thepassionofthechrist.com

(Battle of IA DRANG-1965 Photos)
http://www.lzxray.com/guyer_collecti


21 posted on 11/20/2004 2:43:26 PM PST by ALOHA RONNIE ("ALOHA RONNIE" Guyer/Veteran-"WE WERE SOLDIERS" Battle of IA DRANG-1965 http://www.lzxray.com)
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To: AmericaUnited

I think all of us should write to the President and try to get him to recognize and thank the swifties for thier efforts and sacrifices.


22 posted on 11/20/2004 2:43:47 PM PST by bdfromlv (leavenworth hard time)
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To: CedarDave
My state has a veterans auto plate that can be customized to branch of service and campaign. I'm seriously considering getting one next time my registration is due.

In a lot of states you can do it right on-line... right now. In NY and NC (where we currently live) the fee is $20. I have a "Cobra 64" plate on my 1964 289 FIA Shelby Cobra.

23 posted on 11/20/2004 2:47:15 PM PST by Cobra64 (Babes should wear Bullet Bras - www.BulletBras.net)
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To: AmericaUnited
Each and every Swifty deserves our utmost thanks!

That's an understatement in our house. They saved the Republic from someone who should have been tried, convicted, and shot for treason. And... I would have had no problem in being selected for the squad. Now where's my .308? ....

24 posted on 11/20/2004 2:51:53 PM PST by Cobra64 (Babes should wear Bullet Bras - www.BulletBras.net)
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To: CedarDave

"Celebrate November 2, 2004 -- May it always be known as Vietnam Veterans Victory Day!"

Well put!


25 posted on 11/20/2004 2:52:00 PM PST by jocon307 (Jihad is world wide. Jihad is serious business. We ignore global jihad at our peril.)
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To: bdfromlv

.

MEL's -PASSION- sparked by -WE WERE SOLDIERS-
http://www.TheAlamoFILM.com/forum/viewtopic.php?p=39081

.


26 posted on 11/20/2004 2:53:59 PM PST by ALOHA RONNIE ("ALOHA RONNIE" Guyer/Veteran-"WE WERE SOLDIERS" Battle of IA DRANG-1965 http://www.lzxray.com)
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To: CedarDave

I have a Ohio Vietnam plate. You will like yours if you get it.

Vindication is good, but we must continue to oppose the forces of surrender, the weaklings who want to sell us out to the forces of evil.

Lets keep fighting.


27 posted on 11/20/2004 2:55:39 PM PST by shubi (Those who expect to reap the blessings of freedom,must undergo the fatigues of supporting it.)
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To: RWCon
In only post election distress syndrome were fatal!!

I agree. But I think all of this rhetoric is a bunch of cr@p. Four years ago, there were a dozen or so lefty Hollywood celebs. swearing they'd exit the USA. Well, they are still breathing American oxygen... Right? Who has left the USA due to W's election in 2002? I'm waithing for the 100k jerks to emigrate to Canada. And good riddance to the disloyal bastards who hate this Republic.

28 posted on 11/20/2004 2:56:20 PM PST by Cobra64 (Babes should wear Bullet Bras - www.BulletBras.net)
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To: bdfromlv

"I think all of us should write to the President and try to get him to recognize and thank the swifties for thier efforts and sacrifices."
===
NO! I can't stress that enough. That would imply his consent, and President Bush had absolutely nothing to do with them and what they did. Many of the Swift Boat Veterans were not Republican. That is NOT why they went after Kerry!


29 posted on 11/20/2004 2:58:47 PM PST by JLO
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To: BIGLOOK
Good article here. Thanks FairOpinion.

I'll third that sentiment. It'd be neat if the Swifties knew about FR; and understand our apprefciation for them. I've sent many e-mails thanking them for saving the Republic from Traitor Kerry.

30 posted on 11/20/2004 2:59:11 PM PST by Cobra64 (Babes should wear Bullet Bras - www.BulletBras.net)
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To: bdfromlv; All

"I think all of us should write to the President and try to get him to recognize and thank the swifties for thier efforts and sacrifices."
===
NO! I can't stress that enough. That would imply his consent, and President Bush had absolutely nothing to do with them and what they did. Many of the Swift Boat Veterans were not Republican. That is NOT why they went after Kerry!


31 posted on 11/20/2004 2:59:24 PM PST by JLO
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To: FairOpinion
Hate to rain on the parade. But I have a different take. It's not over. The battle may be won but it is not the time to rest. Kerry is defeated but he got more votes than any Democrat in history. How was this so? How did this person who so betrayed his fellow soldiers ever make it to the national arena in the first place? Kerry is but a symptom of a larger disease.

The national press did everything to elect Kerry. They are still the filter for most of America. Thanks to Buckhead, and the forum Jim Robinson provides, CBS's attempt to blatantly and fraudulently tilt the election was exposed. But no national media asked Kerry any questions at all. No one asked for the record about the form 180. There is no follow up on his discharge. There is no follow up on his dealings with the Chinese. There is no follow up about his post war involvement with Vietnam contracts (The Haiphong harbor rebuilding) There is no questions about his chairing the committee or co-chairing the committee on POW/MIA. These need to be answered to expose the disease which is the liberal domination of mass media. Otherwise the fraud goes unchallenged and attributed to a vast right wing smear machine.
What happened to the CBS investigation? What happened to questioning the timing and coordination between the 527 groups, the networks, and the Kerry campaign. What happened to Sandy Berger? What happened to the CIA leaks? Why did all this suddenly seem irrelevant now that the election is over?
Nothing is further from the truth. Now is the time to relentlessly pursue these liberals. They caused the deaths of thousands. Either passively or actively. The latest forbidden saying is to question a liberal's patriotism. I do. When you champion everyone else before your own country. You are not a patriot. When you lie, cheat, and try to steal the election, you are not a patriot. When you leak information harmful to the country in an effort to sway an election, you are not a patriot. When you filter the news so only the negative shows. You are definitely working against the best interests of your country.
The Swifties did much. But they still have the bully pulpit and this dragon isn't dead yet.
Sorry for the rant. All I see is the danger ahead.
32 posted on 11/20/2004 3:01:00 PM PST by IrishCatholic (No local communist or socialist party chapter? Join the Democrats, it's the same thing.)
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To: FairOpinion

PING


33 posted on 11/20/2004 3:13:03 PM PST by Scales (Earth First, we will mine the other planets later)
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To: JLO

No I think he should recognize them as being truthful patriots. Not for thier support.


34 posted on 11/20/2004 3:18:57 PM PST by bdfromlv (leavenworth hard time)
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To: FairOpinion
Congratulations, Swiftys, on your hard work and courage. May you have many blessing for helping save our great nation.
35 posted on 11/20/2004 3:22:20 PM PST by marmar (Faith is a beautiful thing.....)
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To: bdfromlv
No I think he should recognize them as being truthful patriots. Not for thier support.

He can't. They're a 527 organization. He can't recognize them in any way.

36 posted on 11/20/2004 3:23:12 PM PST by BlessedBeGod (George W. Bush -- The Terror of the Terrorists)
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To: IrishCatholic

Agree. The Swifties did a fantastic job.

But, there are still shills on the MSM saying that the "lies and distortions" of the Swifties have been shown. That's a lie as far as I know. NOTHING has been disproved.

Kerry needs to be shown for the traitorous scum that he is - and has continued to be since his days in uniform. I want all the information out there and let him suffer the consequences of the despicable actions he caused.


37 posted on 11/20/2004 3:46:18 PM PST by baseballmom (You Know Where I Stand - GW Bush - 9/2/04 We're standing with you, Mr. President)
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To: FairOpinion
"You can't live a normal life when you're being spit on, when you have bags of feces thrown at you, or when some idiot is dumping red paint on you or calling you a baby killer."

Yes you can, and do it well. That one nasty liberal attitude is what made many of us conservatives. I wouldn't trade my experience in Viet Nam or when I came 'home' for anything. It is what made me the man, husband and father I am today.

Thanks Libs, you created a conservative monster.

38 posted on 11/20/2004 3:55:54 PM PST by chesty_puller (USMC 70-73 3MAF VN 70-71)
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To: agitator

#17..Love it!..


39 posted on 11/20/2004 3:57:15 PM PST by MEG33 ( Congratulations President Bush!..Thank you God. Four More Years!)
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To: FairOpinion

"Post Election Stress Trauma"

Has everyone had a chance to notice the acronym at work here?


40 posted on 11/20/2004 4:06:43 PM PST by trubluolyguy (Pajamajadeen?!!? Hell with that, Freep nude!)
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To: baseballmom

I received a post card today from the Swifties

Dear Patriot:
Thank you very much for your recent contribution to the Swift Boat Veterans for Truth. The only way we can get the truth out about John Kerry is with the help of Americans such as you.

We are proud to have you with us.

Very truly yours,
Weymouth D. Symmes
Treasurer

I am very proud to be able to support such a group with their fortitude, prudence and justice to protect the American way. Thank you sirs for your efforts and may God bless you each and every one. PROSOUTH


41 posted on 11/20/2004 4:08:10 PM PST by PROSOUTH (Deo Vindice "God Will Vindicate")
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To: FairOpinion
MIDI - JUST WHEN I NEEDED YOU MOST

(Note: you really should be listening to the MIDI when singing this...it is written to track with the particular MIDI chosen)

You came to the war zone and...joined us in battle and
A swift boat's in your command
We didn't know then you were out for yourself
And all the things you had planned

You won a few medals and for that you'd settle and
There was a record...now you could boast
Then you...had turned on us...just when it would hurt us the most
You turned on us when it would hurt us the most

Then in Senate hearings with the whole world watching you
Your brothers you had defamed
We're killers of babies and criminal scum
Of us our nation's ashamed

You won a few medals and for that you'd settle and
There was a record...now you could boast
Then you...had turned on us...just when it would hurt us the most
You turned on us when it would hurt us the most

When we came back home we thought we did our duty but
People would spit in our face
We felt that those jungles in which we had fought
Had been a friendlier place

You won a few medals and for that you'd settle and
There was a record...now you could boast
Then you...had turned on us...just when it would hurt us the most
You turned on us when it would hurt us the most

Our kids are serving now...they do it proudly and
You tell us you want to lead
We'd all walk through hell to be stopping you, John
Those words you had better heed

You won a few medals and for that you'd settle and
There was a record...now you could boast
Then you...had turned on us...just when it would hurt us the most

42 posted on 11/20/2004 4:13:49 PM PST by doug from upland (Vietnam Vets: FINALLY -- welcome home, heroes)
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To: FairOpinion
MIDI - ONE TIN SOLDIER

Listen, people, to the story of the man who won the day
We had really dodged a bullet...with his men he would lead the way
When he learned that John Forbes Kerry had been working on a plan
He could never let that happen...that man's unfit for command

DemocRATS would launch their salvos...he stood up to every blow
They used every dirty tactic...but they could not make him go
He risked his life once for his country...and stepped up again
John O'Neill and the SwiftVets...you will never know finer men

All the lefties got together and they said these men had lied
They would not debate the substance...John Forbes Kerry simply denied
We watched the charade keep going...records he would not reveal
Brokaw, Jennings, and Dan Rather thought that it was no big deal

DemocRATS would launch their salvos...he stood up to every blow
They used every dirty tactic...but they could not make him go
He risked his life once for his country...and stepped up again
John O'Neill and the SwiftVets...you will never know finer men

Voters finally paid attention...Kerry's wounded, and it showed
This man was a fake and phony...from his mouth the anger had flowed
On a fateful day it happened...on a Tuesday in '04
That is when he was rejected...Kerry had been shown the door

DemocRATS would launch their salvos...he stood up to every blow
They used every dirty tactic...but they could not make him go
He risked his life once for his country...and stepped up again
John O'Neill and the SwiftVets...you will never know finer men

43 posted on 11/20/2004 4:18:58 PM PST by doug from upland (Vietnam Vets: FINALLY -- welcome home, heroes)
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To: FairOpinion

Thank-you Swifties x 1000 and thank you FairOpinion for posting this article. I just found a new tagline (and bumper sticker)


44 posted on 11/20/2004 4:29:32 PM PST by torchthemummy ("Terrorism has less to do with economic poverty than with political poverty." - Jane Novak)
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To: bdfromlv; All

If he ever DID that - the MSM would swarm. President Bush had ABSOLUTELY nothing to do with the Swift Boat Veterans!

Truthful patriots, they are. Anti-kerry patriots, LOL!

===

bdfromlv

Here, kitty, kitty!


45 posted on 11/20/2004 4:44:52 PM PST by JLO
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To: FairOpinion
The Vietnam Veterans deserve the same place of honor and gratitude as the doughboys and the flyboys. This is the new national consensus. We have the Swift Boat Veterans For Truth to thank for this new national unity, long over due.

John O'Neill and the Swifties (and the POWs who joined in) should be the Persons of the Year.

46 posted on 11/20/2004 5:00:43 PM PST by Seaplaner (Never give in. Never give in. Never...except to convictions of honour and good sense. W. Churchill)
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To: FairOpinion

...I think they would at least qualify for an honorable mention in the Time Man of the Year selection.


47 posted on 11/20/2004 5:03:45 PM PST by longtermmemmory (VOTE!)
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To: chesty_puller

A monster you are not. Keep up the good work.


48 posted on 11/20/2004 5:06:13 PM PST by DWC
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To: FairOpinion

I'm not a veteran, but I was at the VFW Cincinnati Convention, as shown in pic here. I also had two other SWIFTBOAT signs that I gave out for others to hold, one of whom was a real tall VFW'er.


49 posted on 11/20/2004 5:17:10 PM PST by timestax
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To: Seaplaner

John O'Neill and the Swifties (and the POWs who joined in) should be the HEROES of the Year.


50 posted on 11/20/2004 5:49:39 PM PST by victim soul
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