The (Ukrainian) Revolution WILL be Blogged

The Postmodern Clog Blog ^ | 11/24/2004 | Discoshaman

[MarMema]

Your hero Putin is selling nukes to Iran. Soros is a piece of crap, but Putin is the greater enemy

Putin is the president of Russia, not America. I don't expect him to do things that are good for us.

Soros is a far greater evil, because of his financial abilities and worldwide influences. He has had a strong impact on the medical profession in just the last ten years. It is nothing more than pure evil.

[LibertarianInExile]

Great minds think alike BUMP (ping to 59)

[jimbo123]

When Iran nukes D.C. with weapons built from spent fuel from the Bushehr nuclear reactor, are you going to send flowers to Putin for standing up to Soros?

[MarMema]

So would you believe that top medical professionals in this country are seriously debating taking sick and brain-damaged children to surgery to remove their organs (for transplants to healthier adults), and letting them die on the table in surgery under anesthesia?

Would you accept this slippery slope as acceptable, even though it is being used to further the utilitarianism society we are becoming?

[MarMema]

A lot of websites sell fear to conservatives quite successfully.

[jimbo123]

So we have nothing to fear from a nuclear-armed Iran?

[LibertarianInExile]

Oh, give me a break. I never said anything of the sort. Hang on a sec.

[flicks bic]

There, your straw man is burning nicely. That stuff has nothing to do with the Ukraine. You're taking Soros' nutjob politics and putting them into the Yushchenko camp when there is no reason to do so. You don't have any more reason to support Yushchenko than guilt by association, and you'd prefer the candidate supported by Communists who's stated he'd reunify the Ukraine with Russia before you would consider the nationalist candidate. Whatever.

[MarMema]

You don't think Soros is seeking to transform Eastern Europe into his pet death culture? And this has nothing to do with Ukraine?

[MarMema]

Oh, give me a break. I never said anything of the sort

You implied that you required tin foil for what I said, so I simply asked you if you would believe my next post. So would you believe it, or would you again want to post tin foil?

[LibertarianInExile]

Why, yes, as a matter of fact I think Soros has as his aim forming death squads, which would be a very popular move to most Ukrainians, which is why they voted Yushchenko. /sarcasm

I think Soros believes that his 'reforms' are only going to come to pass in a Westernized society. And he is investing in Ukraine NOW so that there will be a better chance they'll listen to his ideas later.

But again, you have no argument against Yushchenko, just guilt-by-association with Soros. It's getting really, really old.

[MarMema]

My understanding is that Putin/Russia has not yet given the actual rods to Iran, albeit this was about a month ago.

I don't agree with giving Iran anything nuclear. I think you are correct in this. But I don't think they are going to nuke this country, no.

The chechens have long dreamed of nuking something, anything, in Russia, and have still been unable to do so. Of all the islamofascists out there, the chechens are the most barbaric and bold.

[MarMema]

Some people just don't reply to direct questions, I suppose.
Seems easy enough to me.

[LibertarianInExile]

You went off on Soros being "the forerunner for the antiChrist" and "the father of the culture of death." He's a jackass and politically someone I'm not in agreement with, but you make no converts spouting over-the-top statements like that. The tinfoil came out because you sounded like a nutjob yourself. Tone down the rhetoric, stop the guilt-by-association, and you might win friends and influence people.

[LibertarianInExile]

Like yourself? Here's my first post to you:

I'm not sure if you're against it because they're for it or if you're just putting it out there that Soros and Zbiggy supported an idea like this.

I cannot believe the number of Freepers who have jumped on the "Soros likes it so it must be bad" bandwagon. I hope that is not where you are falling. Soros presumably would not have every other person in the U.S. shot, either. Should we then support that? John Kerry once voiced supported for a larger military presence in Iraq. Should we be against that? He also voiced support for withdrawing--should we then be against both?

Feel free to answer those questions, if you can read them so far up on that high horse, before you call me out for not answering your questions based on straw man arguments. Seems easy enough to me.

[Rocky Mountain Mama]

What I am trying to do, half a world away, is to understand the situation better, having an interest in the Ukraine above other nations in Europe, because we have been there and have friends there. Haven't been to those other places, don't love those other people like we love the Ukrainians we have come to know.

You say there is no difference between either candidate, and that is why (I am assuming) you slammed me for expressing an opinion after only posting here for four weeks. While mentioning (a la btw I served in Vietnam) to everyone else, and me too, why you were the expert on affairs in the Ukraine. Expert status acknowledged, and deferred to.

Can you answer the question: If neither of these men will make one bit of difference, then why are one million people in Kiev protesting the election? I am not asking this to be a smart ass, but because I really don't understand why people are so fired up if the results don't matter.

I will be happy to answer your question (I am no expert either) as soon as you answer mine. If you don't know, fine, you can say that. Or if you have an informed opinion, I will take that for what's its worth, not as gospel, of course, so no worries.

[struwwelpeter]

There are also a lot of people protesting for Yanukovich - my friend in Kyiv writes that "a lot of drunks from Donetsk" have come to shout for their homeboy. You know, during our Florida nonsense in 2000, a lot of people were protesting as well, though I'd question the numbers you quote. I've only seen 100-200 thousand quoted, except in blogs like maidan ('indenpendence').

This whole business reminds me a lot of what went down in Yugoslavia. Europe convinced us to back what I still feel was the wrong horse there. Any Russian analyst can tell you that Clinton's handling of Serbia was the one single event that awoke the bear from its slumber. Messing around in Ukraine is much closer to home. Not that I care about Russia, just pointing out that there is little for the US to gain here at tremendous risk.

I apologize if I gave you the impression that I was insulting you. The comment: "I can't believe a freeper would write this" (without a 'wink' or 'lol') gave me an impression that I'm sure you didn't mean to exress.

My biggest worry with letting Russia do what it wants to do in the Ukraine is that China will think that they have a free hand in Taiwan.

Let me repeat that apology and allow me to express my gratitude for a stimulating conversation from a new member. Welcome!

[Destro]

No, I will not.

[Rocky Mountain Mama]

I read on one of the latest news threads that it was 300,000 a few days ago, a million this morning. I'll see if I can find it. It was posted on the Ukraine Election Crisis Roundup Thread.

From the pics I saw (Pics From Kiev thread) nearly everyone had orange. From what I understand, orange was Yushchenko's color? Why I don't know. But it led me to assume the majority of the protesters were for Yushchenko.

I can't imagine the US would get directly involved in the crisis, do you? Other than through diplomatic channels.

But what I again don't understand, is that if both men are basically the same, which was something I thought you were saying earlier, then why was Yushchenko almost killed twice in the past year, why was so much fraud done in Yanukovich's behalf during the voting, and why are so many people protesting for Yushchenko. I mean, it sounds like someone doesn't think they are the same.

And thanks for the welcome to FR. I guess I don't feel like a newbie because I have been a lurker for so many years. But this election brought me out of the woodwork. :)

And sorry for the lack of emoticons with the previous post. Obvious newbie posting mistake!

[Rocky Mountain Mama]

I wrote, "I read on one of the latest news threads that it was 300,000 a few days ago, a million this morning. I'll see if I can find it."

Okay, I read through two of the threads I read this morning, thinking I would find the reference, and haven't found it yet. Worse, there are dozens and dozens of threads up about the Ukraine right now. Is there any way I can search the body of the threads, or just the titles? Otherwise it is going to take me the rest of my natural life to find the post, I am afraid.

[struwwelpeter]

I'm sure there are supporting evidence and photos for any side in this issue.

I hope that someday Ukraine finds leaders worthy of its great people. Sorry that I'm such a pessimist in the present tense. I only look at it from a US perspective. It was the Kuchma/Yanukovich gangsters who sent 1800 Ukrainian peacekeepers to help us in Iraq. It is Yushchenko's party who fought their deployment and pushes for their removal.

Yanukovich is a gangster, but on Yushchenko's side there is Yuliya Timoshenko (who went to prison for stealing billions from the Ukraine which has never been returned), George Soros, Chiraq and Kofi Annan.

Great company.

Yushchenko is probably more honest, probably a better choice, and I'm willing to grant that a broken clock and George Soros can be right twice a day.

But Russia is the problem here. Russia, Belarus, and the Ukraine are the 'three stallions' of what was always been the nucleus of greater Russia. After their experience in Yugoslavia, the Russians are probably willing to blow people up to make their point this time.

There's really no humor in this situation, but I've been trying to remind some of my friends over there about how funny they thought OUR election in 2000 was, with no president known all the way into December.

If I'm wrong and Russia pulls some Lithuanian-style mass murder, as she did in 1989-90, I'll buy the drinks on this thread.