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Cathedral Damaged In Apparent Anti-Gay Exorcism
Star Tribune ^ | November 24, 2004 | Herón Márquez Estrada

Posted on 11/24/2004 9:25:38 AM PST by wallcrawlr

An informal exorcism performed at the Cathedral of St. Paul this month was more profane than sacred and was directed toward gay Catholics, police and church authorities said Tuesday.

They said the ritualistic sprinkling of blessed oil and salt around the church and in donation boxes amounted to costly vandalism and possibly even a hate crime.

The damage was discovered Nov. 7 after the noon mass, and after words were exchanged between members of the Rainbow Sash Alliance, a gay rights group, and the opposing group, Catholics Against Sacrilege.

(Excerpt) Read more at startribune.com ...


TOPICS: Extended News; US: Minnesota
KEYWORDS: cathedral; cathedralofstpaul; catholiclist; desecration; exorcism; gaycatholics; holycommunion; homosexualagenda; homosexuallist; minnesota; mn; stpaul
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1 posted on 11/24/2004 9:25:38 AM PST by wallcrawlr
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To: wallcrawlr
He said he received an e-mail Nov. 5 from a man who threatened to douse Rainbow Sash members at the Nov. 7 mass with what he described as "exorcised" oil blessed by a priest.

Bayly said the same man often shows up at CPCSM and Rainbow Sash events and prays the rosary but staying apart from group members.

"I didn't make the connection until now," Bayly said Tuesday.

Uh, there's your prime suspect.

2 posted on 11/24/2004 9:28:57 AM PST by sinkspur ("It is a great day to be alive. I appreciate your gratitude." God Himself.)
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To: wallcrawlr

Very ugly.


3 posted on 11/24/2004 9:33:02 AM PST by anniegetyourgun
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To: sinkspur
A report was filed with St. Paul police, who said the case could be prosecuted as a hate crime if someone is arrested.
What drivel. Hate against whom? The pastor whose church was vandalized?
4 posted on 11/24/2004 9:34:02 AM PST by eastsider
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To: eastsider

I don't like the "hate crime" designation either. But, this perp sounds possibly dangerous, to me.


5 posted on 11/24/2004 9:38:05 AM PST by sinkspur ("It is a great day to be alive. I appreciate your gratitude." God Himself.)
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To: sinkspur; eastsider

Agreed. Hate crime?? Dont get that one.

The fellow does seem to be going out of his way to do what some of us may spiritually agree with but not act upon.


6 posted on 11/24/2004 9:40:43 AM PST by wallcrawlr
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To: wallcrawlr

It buuuuuurns! It buuuurns!


7 posted on 11/24/2004 9:42:54 AM PST by avg_freeper (Gunga galunga. Gunga, gunga galunga)
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To: sinkspur

Obvious media bias:

A group of mainstream Catholics defending their faith is labeled a "fringe group." Meanwhile, a group of sinners, whose very advocacy of their sinful behaviors is another sin, is treated as mainstream by the media.
There is no such thing as a gay Catholic organization. People who spread heresy self-excommunicate.


8 posted on 11/24/2004 9:45:20 AM PST by jjmcgo
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To: wallcrawlr
"words were exchanged between members of the Rainbow Sash Alliance, a gay rights group, and the opposing group, Catholics Against Sacrilege"

Comedy scripts should be submitted here.

9 posted on 11/24/2004 9:47:33 AM PST by Uncle Miltie (Democrat Obstructionists will be Daschled!)
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To: eastsider
Wanderer Editorial:

The only public explanation given by Archbishop Flynn for allowing the rainbow sashers to receive Holy Communion is that he does not want the Eucharist to become the focal point of contentiousness and battle. But does yielding to aggressive groups who are willing to commit sacrilege constitute too dear a price to pay for "peace"?

Is it possible that Archbishop Flynn really believes that homosexual sashers are properly disposed to receive Holy Communion? It would seem that public advocacy of a gravely disordered lifestyle would be contrary to having a proper disposition, but if the Archbishop holds a different view he should have the integrity and honesty to publicly so declare.

In any event, the permissive attitude shown by Archbishop Flynn — and in some cases advocacy and outright support by other clerics and Catholic leaders in the Archdiocese — toward militant homosexual groups and individuals and their various projects and programs — often sponsored by parishes and other Catholic institutions — cries out for investigation by higher authority. The Catholic faith of the people of this Archdiocese is much too important to allow this situation to continue its anarchical drift.

Also, Original story

SD

10 posted on 11/24/2004 9:57:44 AM PST by SoothingDave
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To: eastsider
I take it he showed as much concern for the cost and damage as the clergy abuse scandals.

In general, at Mass it is inappropriate for people to wear symbols, uniforms, or other visible displays intended to communicate dissent from or opposition to Catholic teachings. The result is that the Mass is profaned by using it to stage a political protest (which is not what the Mass is about).

Anyone who dresses in a way intended to disrupt Mass or offend other people at Mass is doing something VERY wrong. And it is certainly wrong for any of the clergy to encourage this.

11 posted on 11/24/2004 10:02:59 AM PST by HowlinglyMind-BendingAbsurdity
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To: jjmcgo
A group of mainstream Catholics defending their faith is labeled a "fringe group."

There's nothing mainstream about destroying property. It's criminal.

12 posted on 11/24/2004 10:03:59 AM PST by sinkspur ("It is a great day to be alive. I appreciate your gratitude." God Himself.)
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To: sinkspur

At this point, whodunit is unknown. And, it appears the loner who is being pointed out is not part of the mainstream defenders' group.


13 posted on 11/24/2004 10:15:49 AM PST by jjmcgo
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To: All
Hate? I think hate is when one wants to chop someone's head off. That to me is hate. However, fighting for what one considers important? it's more like conviction, guts, you duty, you might say, it's a "moral value," :)
14 posted on 11/24/2004 10:54:04 AM PST by ElPatriota
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To: HowlinglyMind-BendingAbsurdity; SoothingDave

It is entirely inappropriate to wear a symbol of dissent at the Eucharist, which is the sign of Catholic unity. Having said that, it is the priest's call regarding who receives communion because Christ instituted an intrinsic nexus between the sacraments of Holy Orders and the Eucharist. Those who disagree with his decision should take their cause to Rome, not kneel in the aisles at Communion or toss oil onto the pews after hours.


15 posted on 11/24/2004 10:55:54 AM PST by eastsider
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To: jjmcgo
There is no such thing as a gay Catholic organization. People who spread heresy self-excommunicate.

BTTT

16 posted on 11/24/2004 11:49:07 AM PST by hattend (Where'd my tagline go?)
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To: Siobhan; Canticle_of_Deborah; broadsword; NYer; Salvation; sandyeggo; american colleen; ...
Catholic ping!


St. John Fisher, pray for us!

17 posted on 11/24/2004 12:02:08 PM PST by Pyro7480 (Sub tuum praesidium confugimus, sancta Dei Genitrix.... sed a periculis cunctis libera nos semper...)
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To: jjmcgo

Dignity and Integrity have neither.


18 posted on 11/24/2004 12:07:21 PM PST by miele man
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To: wallcrawlr
Good thing men like the rector weren't around during the first Passover. Imagine all the hours that would have been spent to get all that blood off the doorposts.

The only NT reference I find to anoint or anointing is in James, the elders anointing the sick. THE OT references to anointing the altar are unconvincing in this case, IMO.

Even so, to raise a stink and get the secular authorities involved in the thing is pretty weak on the part of the rector, IMO.

19 posted on 11/24/2004 12:23:52 PM PST by savedbygrace ("No Monday morning quarterback has never led a team to victory" GW Bush)
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To: savedbygrace
Good thing men like the rector weren't around during the first Passover. Imagine all the hours that would have been spent to get all that blood off the doorposts.
The Jews left town right after the first Passover. I doubt they bothered to clean up ...
20 posted on 11/24/2004 12:27:43 PM PST by eastsider
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To: wallcrawlr; HowlinglyMind-BendingAbsurdity; Canticle_of_Deborah; Land of the Irish; Pio; ...

What vandalism? Unless a literal torrent or blessed oil was used, there is no damage to speak of. When an altar is properly consecrated it is literally washed in the oil - then cleaned off. It is not just a tiny dot of it - as if one were applying cologne!

This diocese and its "bishop" has been a hotbed of dissent, in particular about the issue of homosexuality. AB Flynn is basicly an apostate, who allows error to flourish with abondon.

This has all the appearance of connivance between element in the gay activist community, and the local clergy - which is nothing new either there, nor in any other US diocese. The rector is making a false - or at least exaggerated claim of "damage" to curry favor with his friends in the gay community, and in secular paganized society at large.

In some regards, this reminds me of the words and actions of the Paulist Fathers and NYC Cardinal O'Connor - when loyal Catholics invaded a gay mass at St. Paul the Apostle Church in NYC in the early 90s. They loudly prayed the rosary, sprinkl;ed holy water on the gays, and took over the microphone from the gay priests who were leading this de facto DIGNITY mass.

Yes the police were called, and the good Catholics were arrested for trying to "take back" their church, as it were. Cardinal O'Connor's brave follow up to this? Did he chastise or suspend the faculties of the Paulist Fathers for allowing this sacralidge and blashphemy of a "mass?

NO! He openly chided, condemned, and threatened with further arrest any loyal, traditional Catholics who would even so much as peacefully picket out side a church where a gay mass was taking place.

"Faith of our fathers, living still in spite of dungeon, fire, and sword".........

Not in the new church............it is forbidden!


21 posted on 11/24/2004 12:51:12 PM PST by thor76 (Vade retro, Draco! Crux sacra sit mihi lux! St. Michael the Archangel defend us in battle!)
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To: HowlinglyMind-BendingAbsurdity
You are totally correct, but I feel that you are being too diplomatic.

To wear symbols of dissent against the faith at mass, is behavior which is at once blasphemous and sacrilegious For the record, many of us frequently see a very prominant symbol of dissent being worn at mass.......many masses......in some location at every mass. By the priest. When a priest wears the stole over the chasuable - on the outside - it is done so as a symbol of dissent. This was told to me by some prominant dissenters.....er......presbyters. In fact, any aberrations involving vestments, are symbolic of dissent. Including substituing blue for violet/purple. As in all things, the clergy lead the way.
22 posted on 11/24/2004 12:57:30 PM PST by thor76 (Vade retro, Draco! Crux sacra sit mihi lux! St. Michael the Archangel defend us in battle!)
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To: jjmcgo; Pio; pascendi; Maeve; Land of the Irish; Canticle_of_Deborah; Selous; broadsword; ...

"There is no such thing as a gay Catholic organization. People who spread heresy self-excommunicate"

Indeed - so true!

The reason why loyal Catholic protestors in these situation have sprinkeled gays with holy water, blessed salt & oil, is because it is a minor form of exorcism.

Such action serves a twofold purpose: 1)to "cleanse" a church where blasphemy has been committed. In lieu of a formal exorcism and reconsecration of the building, this is the best effort available to a layman.

2) Anyone who is unrepentently steeped in mortal sin - like homosexuality - is to a greater or lesser degree under the influence of demons. Their conscience has been effectively shut off, and they no longer listen to the interior prompting of their Guardian Angel. They are literally devoid of grace, without which they are ready prey for the Devil nad his minions to take control. So they are literally urged on to commit such foul and demonic acts as desecration of the Sacred host, or to receive Communion unworthily - on purpose! Knowingly! Such is not the act of the sane man operating with conscience!

So it is understandable that loyal Catholic protestors would want to use sacramentals (holy water, oil, salt) to fight against demons, and their efects - to drive them back, and negate the spiritual effect of what they would do.

I fully support such well intentioned, good Catholics. Because what many fail to realize that loyal Catholics do indeed pray for the souls of gays, and other unrepentant sinners, that they might return to God and find salvation.

So such a blessing/minor exorcism with holy water, blest salt/oil is in truth a work of charity.


23 posted on 11/24/2004 1:13:12 PM PST by thor76 (Vade retro, Draco! Crux sacra sit mihi lux! St. Michael the Archangel defend us in battle!)
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To: thor76; Pyro7480

The only thing damaged by blessed salt and oil is the darkness. Notice who is complaining.


24 posted on 11/24/2004 1:18:27 PM PST by Canticle_of_Deborah
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To: wallcrawlr
So let me get this straight.....

There is some salt and oil in the church that was sprinkled in an attempt to ritually purify the church against homosexual evil, and they are calling this "vandalism" and a "hate crime."

Welcome to Bizzaro World.


25 posted on 11/24/2004 1:23:33 PM PST by SkyPilot
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To: thor76
So it is understandable that loyal Catholic protestors would want to use sacramentals (holy water, oil, salt) to fight against demons, and their efects - to drive them back, and negate the spiritual effect of what they would do.
If the Body and Blood of Christ in the tabernacle doesn't drive the demons back, why should sacramentals?
26 posted on 11/24/2004 1:33:03 PM PST by eastsider
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To: Canticle_of_Deborah

'Notice who is complaining"

Notice also that two of their favorite hymns are "All Are Welcome", and "God of Day and God of Darkness".

The lyrics of the former are laced with painfully obvious references to false ecumenism (indifferentism), and homosexuality. The lyrics of the latter are outright demonic.


27 posted on 11/24/2004 1:36:57 PM PST by thor76 (Vade retro, Draco! Crux sacra sit mihi lux! St. Michael the Archangel defend us in battle!)
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To: sinkspur
But, this perp sounds possibly dangerous, to me.

Aieeee! Not the blessed oil and salt! Noooooo!
28 posted on 11/24/2004 1:38:15 PM PST by Xenalyte (Anything is possible when you don't understand how anything happens.)
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To: jjmcgo
People who spread heresy self-excommunicate.

But if your church tolerates - no, condones - the "heresy," does your promulgation thereof excommunicate you? You're in sync with the church, after all.
29 posted on 11/24/2004 1:39:04 PM PST by Xenalyte (Anything is possible when you don't understand how anything happens.)
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To: wallcrawlr; american colleen; sinkspur; Lady In Blue; Salvation; narses; SMEDLEYBUTLER; redhead; ...

Rainbow Sash Alliance USA

The Rainbow Sash Alliance USA is part of the international Rainbow Sash Movement.

  The Rainbow Sash Movement is an organization of lesbian, gay, bisexual, and  transgender Catholics, with their families and friends, who are publicly calling the Roman Catholic Church to a conversion of heart around the issues of human sexuality.

The purpose of the Alliance is to create an elected leadership and board of directors, composed of members of the various Rainbow Sash organizations in the USA, to coordinate the activities of the Rainbow Sash Movement in the US, and to increase its impact.

In addition to coordinating the Rainbow Sash groups in different cities of the USA, the Alliance puts a primary emphasis on working with like minded organizations in other Christian and non-Christian religious traditions, and with secular lgbt organizations in the USA.

* * * * *

Anyone who does not understand that the "rainbow sash" catholics are not agenda driven, had better take a closer look. They pursue the Catholic Church because of its stance on homosexuality. It is apparent that their agenda is much larger.

Voter's Guide for Serious Catholics

THE FIVE NON-NEGOTIABLE ISSUES

5. Homosexual "Marriage"

True marriage is the union of one man and one woman. Legal recognition of any other union as "marriage" undermines true marriage, and legal recognition of homosexual unions actually does homosexual persons a disfavor by encouraging them to persist in what is an objectively immoral arrangement.

"When legislation in favor of the recognition of homosexual unions is proposed for the first time in a legislative assembly, the Catholic lawmaker has a moral duty to express his opposition clearly and publicly and to vote against it. To vote in favor of a law so harmful to the common good is gravely immoral" (UHP 10).

UHP Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith, Considerations regarding Proposals to Give Legal Recognition to Unions between Homosexual Persons

Catholic Ping - please freepmail me if you want on/off this list


30 posted on 11/24/2004 1:55:13 PM PST by NYer ("Blessed be He who by His love has given life to all." - final prayer of St. Charbel)
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To: wallcrawlr

How much oil and salt did they use? I mean, what did they have, gallon jugs of oil, to cause that much damage?


31 posted on 11/24/2004 1:57:56 PM PST by B Knotts
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To: wallcrawlr

After reading the entire article two things became clear.

The modern day occupants of this church view sacramentals as "an ancient Biblical rite by fringe groups." In other words, CATHOLICS.

No one can say this church is not practicing a different religion.

Second, the pastor has no problem giving Communion to homosexual dissenters? Yes, the Body and Blood repel the darkness. Anyone want to bet this pastor doesn't perform valid consecrations?


32 posted on 11/24/2004 2:23:13 PM PST by Canticle_of_Deborah
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To: Canticle_of_Deborah
Second, the pastor has no problem giving Communion to homosexual dissenters? Yes, the Body and Blood repel the darkness. Anyone want to bet this pastor doesn't perform valid consecrations?

While I get where you are going with this, I don't think you can make that leap. After all, Judas was at the first Mass and that certainly was a valid consecration. He still managed to do the Deed...

A_R

33 posted on 11/24/2004 2:44:46 PM PST by arkady_renko
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To: eastsider; Pio; pascendi; MarineMomJ; Canticle_of_Deborah; pro Athanasius; Maeve; ...
"If the Body and Blood of Christ in the tabernacle doesn't drive the demons back, why should sacramentals?"

A loaded, but very appropriate question, which deserves an equal response. What we are dealing with here is part of the Mystery of Iniquity.

In Christ's Passion, demons urged on his captors and torturers to great and extreme levels of cruelty. The Will of God allowed for this, as it was fitting in God's plan of salvation. Here we enter into the realm of mysticism. The demons were not afraid to assail his physical body. It was allowed to them to do this.

Nor are they afraid to assail his Mystical Body - the Church - today.

It is not for nothing that the possession of and desecration of a consecrated host is the centerpiece of a black mass. Demons, and those under their control, are again allowed to do all manner of unspeakable things to Christ. This is because a Black Mass is the total inversion and perversion of the Catholic Mass.

In a Catholic Mass, the sacrifice of Christ on Calvary is offered up to God again, in an unbloody manner. And in the mass, Christ is glorified, and tremendous graces are given to those who hear mass. The Black Mass takes the previously consecrated host - which is literally Christ in his flesh and blood - and spits upon, degrades, and reviles Him again. It is all of the torture of His Passion, without His glorification.

But while the satanist in the Black Mass can torture and degrade Christ again, and take pleasure in it, he cannot take away the triumph of the cross. Never. He merely repeats the torture of the physical body, and mocking of his divine majesty - to his own eventual downfall.

Christ allows himself, in the Eucharist, to be either revered by or reviled by men. He is the wiling prisoner of love in the Tabernacle, where he waits upon souls to come and visit with him. Where the churches are locked all day, Christ is insulted and reviled again - as nobody can come and pay homage, and look with love upon their Redeemer and Creator. For that sin, many priests and Bishops will pay dearly in the next world.

As Christ allowed his physical body to be assailed in His Passion, so he allows it in both the Eucharist, and in the physical form of His Mystical Body (the Church) to be assailed by wicked men, who would revile him again. This is one of the mysteries of the Catholic faith.

So since he - willingly - is defenseless in the tabernacle, it is up to those who love Him.....who are good and true Catholics to defend Him, and his Bride, the Church.

Christ did and does willingly give himself to be bled for us. When the soldiers came to arrest him in the Garden, Christ asked them: "whom do you seek". The answered: Jesus of Nazareth". He replied: "I AM HE". They soldiers fell to the ground and the pronouncement of the name of God by God. Christ was showing clearly that He had the power to save himself, if he so chose. So he did and does suffer willingly for us.

Sacramentals are given to us as spiritual weapons - armor against evil. They have tremendous power over demons when used with faith.

In Exorcism the two most powerful sacramentals are Holy Water, and the Crucifix. These are of great power to make demons flee. In particular the crucifix, as it is the symbol of their utter defeat. For despite their best work at killing the Body of Christ on the cross, it was by the cross itself that Christ overcame sin, death and hell.

Christ's Body & Blood are the sacrificial lamb - the penultimate sin offering. He was born for the purpose of suffering and dying thus. Demons are not afraid of that Body, as they killed it slowly once, and have in many, many instances in occult ritual tortured it again and again over the centuries. In the "person" of the Mystical Body of Christ, demons have incited leaders of nations to torture, enslave, and execute millions of Christians over the centuries. Thus, continuing the torture of the Body of Christ.

A modernist priest once told me that the reason that Churches had large devotional crucifixes in them was to scare away the Jews. Nothing could be further from the truth. The crucifix is an affront to the Devil - it is the sign of his ultimate doom. The Holy Water is poison to him and his legions, as it is the cleansing water of Baptism. The Holy Oils are an affront to Satan as they are used to consecrate and hallow churches, altars, and persons when they are Confirmed - sealed forever with the Mark of God, and given the power (if they choose, in faith to use it) to do battle with demons using the power of the Holy Ghost.

That is why these Sacramentals cause demons to screech and flee. Becuase in them is the power of the victory won on Calvary.

"This is the sign which Satan's legions fear, and angels veil their faces to revere.........Each newborn soldier of the Crucified bears on his brow the seal of Him who died....".

All the legions of hell, Satan himself, and those who give themselves to his service here cannot stand before the sign of the cross. They have no choice to be flattened by it, and other sacramentals. No power in this world - and Satan is lord of this world - can stand against the power of the cross......holy water.....holy oils......blessed salt.....the rosary.

Simple, inexpensive things, accessible to even the poorest person. These things have more power then all the money in the world, as they are the ultimate WMD.....which lays waste the ancient enemy.
34 posted on 11/24/2004 2:55:47 PM PST by thor76 (Vade retro, Draco! Crux sacra sit mihi lux! St. Michael the Archangel defend us in battle!)
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To: Pyro7480

At least with the salt and blessed oil, we know the exorcist knew what he was doing.

I don't see what the big deal was other than the archbishop was being shown rather vivdly what his job should entail.


35 posted on 11/24/2004 3:17:04 PM PST by Desdemona
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To: sinkspur
There's nothing mainstream about destroying property. It's criminal.

They're misguided souls with noble intentions. If the Bishop did his job and enforced Canon 916, there would have been no vandalism. He's ultimately to blame, IMHO.

36 posted on 11/24/2004 3:20:11 PM PST by curiosity
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To: curiosity
They're misguided souls with noble intentions. If the Bishop did his job and enforced Canon 916, there would have been no vandalism. He's ultimately to blame, IMHO.

The bishop is not to blame for this induhvidual's actions; the induhvidual is.

37 posted on 11/24/2004 3:21:50 PM PST by Poohbah (Crush your enemies, see them driven before you, and hear the lamentations of their women!)
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To: Poohbah
The bishop is not to blame for this induhvidual's actions; the induhvidual is.

I agree that the individual is culpable. However, he would not have resorted to this kind of thing had the bishop simply done his job and enforced canon 916 and barred the Rainbow Sash people from communnion.

Barring people in "manifest grave sin" is not optional.

38 posted on 11/24/2004 3:24:48 PM PST by curiosity
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To: curiosity
I agree that the individual is culpable. However, he would not have resorted to this kind of thing had the bishop simply done his job and enforced canon 916 and barred the Rainbow Sash people from communnion.

Then this wingnut would've found something else to go off about.

39 posted on 11/24/2004 3:26:04 PM PST by Poohbah (Crush your enemies, see them driven before you, and hear the lamentations of their women!)
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To: curiosity
They're misguided souls with noble intentions. If the Bishop did his job and enforced Canon 916, there would have been no vandalism. He's ultimately to blame, IMHO.

Yeah, like Bush is to blame for the fight between the Pistons and the Pacers last Friday. All that violence in Iraq was just too much for Ron Artest to take, you know.

Spreading oil and salt on property you do not own is vandalism, pure and simple. They are not "misguided souls." They're criminals and should be made to pay restitution or cool their heels in the hoosegow.

How about abortionists? Is it cool to shoot them so that they don't murder anymore?

40 posted on 11/24/2004 3:32:59 PM PST by sinkspur ("It is a great day to be alive. I appreciate your gratitude." God Himself.)
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To: arkady_renko

Put a possessed individual in front of a traditionally blessed Eucharist and watch what happens.

If an individual is truly affected by evil he cannot remain in the presence of the Holy. Some homosexuals may fall into this category, some are merely sinners in need of repentance.

If the pastor is bringing divine grace into his parish on a regular basis it will be evident in the fruits of the parish and the individuals. Chaos is not a fruit. Neither is willful violation of Church teaching (like giving Communion to those publicly advocating sin). If the pastor cannot be trusted to abide by Church teachings, his entire priesthood is open to examination.


41 posted on 11/24/2004 3:35:48 PM PST by Canticle_of_Deborah
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To: thor76

Nice post.

You bring up an interesting but puzzling paradox. Possessed people are repelled by the sight and touch of a consecrated Eucharist. Yet, Satanists are able to touch and defile consecrated Eucharists. I suspect some metaphysical influences to enable them to perform the latter?


42 posted on 11/24/2004 3:45:01 PM PST by Canticle_of_Deborah
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To: Canticle_of_Deborah
Put a possessed individual in front of a traditionally blessed Eucharist and watch what happens.

You are a sly one, you are. Slipping that "traditionally" in there, which is meant to infer that the Eucharist in a Novus Ordo Church will cause a possessed person to dance a jig, I guess.

And, the Eucharist is not "blessed"; it is "consecrated."

43 posted on 11/24/2004 3:45:45 PM PST by sinkspur ("It is a great day to be alive. I appreciate your gratitude." God Himself.)
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To: sinkspur

You have some serious issues which need addressing.

I can depend on a traditional consecration. I cannot rely on a Novus Ordo consecration which may or may not transubstantiate. In the event it does, it most obviously DOES NOT create the same state of grace in individuals and the Church.

Look at the state of the Church today. There are no good fruits. The Holy Spirit is with the traditional movement which is growing rapidly. The Novus Ordo is self-destructing.


44 posted on 11/24/2004 3:51:29 PM PST by Canticle_of_Deborah
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To: Canticle_of_Deborah
I can depend on a traditional consecration. I cannot rely on a Novus Ordo consecration which may or may not transubstantiate. In the event it does, it most obviously DOES NOT create the same state of grace in individuals and the Church.

You drink the schismatic kool-aid by the gallon, don't you?

You have done as much to poison the religion forum as I or anyone else around here has.

It's a pity. You're not a dumb woman.

45 posted on 11/24/2004 3:58:24 PM PST by sinkspur ("It is a great day to be alive. I appreciate your gratitude." God Himself.)
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To: sinkspur
They're criminals and should be made to pay restitution or cool their heels in the hoosegow.

You probably feel sorry for the guy in the Piston's jersey that ran onto the court and got decked in the face by Ron Artest. Poor soul din't deserve that.

46 posted on 11/24/2004 4:03:03 PM PST by Grey Ghost II
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To: sinkspur
Archbishop Flynn is wrong to give communion to those openly and notoriously dissenting against teachings of the Catholic faith on the sinfulness of homosexual activity. The individuals involved here were wrong for their damaging trespass against Church property. As for the following, as usual the gay activists completely misrepresent the teaching of the Catholic Church and of orthodox Catholics. Homosexual activity is what is sinful, not the proclivity itself. Gay activists get so much mileage out of sloppy and ambiguous and inaccurate language, orthodox Catholics must be very careful in this area. As I have said before, love the sinner and hate the sin, but love and being "pastoral" does NOT mean affirming sinful behavior. And behavior is by its nature always chosen, even if the proclivity may not be.

Michael Bayly, coordinator of the Catholic Pastoral Committee on Sexual Minorities (CPCSM), an advocacy group for gays and lesbians, said such fringe groups perceive gays and lesbians who take communion as evil.

47 posted on 11/24/2004 4:04:51 PM PST by Unam Sanctam
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To: sinkspur

No, I'm not stupid.

That fact should reinforce many of my points.

I may be harsh. I may not be all sweetness, giggles and light, but I wholeheartedly believe in everything I say and do. We can't deny the truth simply because it offends someone.


48 posted on 11/24/2004 4:05:02 PM PST by Canticle_of_Deborah
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To: Grey Ghost II
You probably feel sorry for the guy in the Piston's jersey that ran onto the court and got decked in the face by Ron Artest. Poor soul din't deserve that.

Drunk fans and thuggish ball players.

Somebody ought to put a fence around the NBA and call it a zoo.

49 posted on 11/24/2004 4:12:35 PM PST by sinkspur ("It is a great day to be alive. I appreciate your gratitude." God Himself.)
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To: Canticle_of_Deborah
We can't deny the truth simply because it offends someone.

Denying the validity of the Novus Ordo Eucharist is not the truth, Deborah. And you damned well know it.

If you don't, then you're not so smart, after all.

50 posted on 11/24/2004 4:17:01 PM PST by sinkspur ("It is a great day to be alive. I appreciate your gratitude." God Himself.)
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