Skip to comments.Alexander wasn't gay
Posted on 11/26/2004 8:59:56 AM PST by SusanD
Aristotles dictum still stands: He who asserts must also prove. When you make a claim, the burden of proof is on you to demonstrate that claim.
Lets ask some clear, practical questions in light of Oliver Stones Alexander: Did Alexander ever kiss a man on the mouth? No evidence. Did he ever play a passive or active role in same sex sexual unions? No evidence. Did he have sex of any kind with the eunuch Bagoas? No evidence. Did he ever play footsie with men or boys at a sports bar? No evidence. Did he have sex with Hephaestion or any other man, young or old? No evidence. Was he anything other than a married, heterosexual male with children who chose power as his supreme mistress? The answer in concert with all the primary sources is again: no evidence!
Alexander clearly distained his father Philips alpha male excesses and was considered something of a prig with regard to sexual matters. Interestingly enough, no one who knew them both considered Alexander either in character or in conduct to have followed in his fathers licentious footsteps. Instead it was said of him that he gave the strange impression of one whose body was his servant. Alexander stated that his true father figure was Aristotle, for although Philip had given him life, Aristotle had taught him how to live.
What then was Aristotles position on such issues. What would Alexander and Hephaestion have learned from their mentor in three years of study? In his Nicomachean Ethics, Aristotle distinguishes between what is naturally pleasurable from what is pleasurable without being naturally so.
K. J. Dover explains:
In this latter category he puts (a) things which are pleasurable because of deficiencies or impairments and those who find them so, (b) things which become pleasurable through habit, and (c) things which are found pleasurable by bad natures.[xiii]
Those who are effeminate by nature are constituted contrary to nature; for, though male, they are so disposed that part of them (sc the rectum) is necessarily defective. Defect, if complete, causes destruction, but if not, perversion (sc. of ones nature). it therefore follows that they must be distorted and have an urge in a place other than (sc. that of) procreative ejaculation.[xiv]
Dover concludes Aristotles thought:
The writers concept of nature is not difficult to understand: a male who is physically constituted in such a way that he lacks something of the positive characteristics which distinguish male from female, and possesses instead a positively female characteristic, suffers from a constitutional defect contrary to nature, and a male who through habituation behaves in a way which is a positive differentia of females behaves as if he had such a defect.[xv]
Non heterosexual relations are contrary to nature. But again, why should anyone care? Why would Greek lawyers be threatening to sue Oliver Stone and Warner Brothers film studios with an extrajudicial note saying that the movie is fiction and not based on fact? Is it a Bible-thumping, right-wing conspiracy? No, I believe its only a concern for truth - clear historical facts versus Hollywood interpra-facts. Gay activists say that the film soft-pedals Alexanders sexuality. Terms such as erotic reality denyers and homophobic Keystone Cops are used of anyone who dares to challenge that Alexander might actually have been just a heterosexual guy. It is interesting to me that Alexander is not even mentioned in the important studies of homoeroticism in ancient Greece by the likes of Sir Kenneth Dover, (Greek Homosexuality, 1989), John Winklers The Constraints of Desire, (1990), and David Halperins 100 Years of Homosexuality (1990).
In short, regardless of the sexual mores of Alexanders time, coupled with the clear evidence of homoerotic relationships on the part of his father Philip II, at end the question of whether there is evidence in the ancient historians to suggest that Alexander was homosexual, bisexual, homoerotic, or anything else of the sort, just isnt there.
Personally, I dont care. I am neither angry nor homophobic. I just appreciate historical evidence when historical claims
By today's standards, everyone is gay.
PS: Is the issue gay or bisexual. Since we know he had a wife, children and mistresses, it would seem the allegation would be that he swung from both sides of the plate.
Pssst! Some of us are just jovial.
"Alexander had 3 wives and several mistresses. He had children."
What does that prove?
Well, they also try to claim David and Jonathan were gay, event though there is no evidence, and their culture and religion was deeply opposed to homosexuality.
Facts and liberalism don't mix.
Alexander wasn't homosexual.
According to the experts on the History Channel on Tuesday night, Allie boy's lover was Hephastian (sp?). Also, when I was in college, we studied Mary Renault's writings. She was considered one of many authorities on ancient Greece. Homosexuality was the norm for males of ancient Greece, especially boys in the bath houses. Women existed to procreate and keep the house while the real pleasure for the boys was in homosexuality.
Stop, or I'll scratch your eyes out!
It is contemporaneous evidence of Alexander engaging in normal sexual behavior. To be contrasted with the total absence of evidence to the contrary.
Does anyone have information about the early returns of Stone's "gay" movie?
The word "GAY" has been so misaligned by this Unholy abominal practice.
One can only hope Stone stays away from producing childrens' themes.
What does that prove?
Only that his natural function was in working order. It does not disprove the negative.
Word is the film is a pain in the @ss...
Don't ax, don't tell...
Speak for yourself.
This kind of garbage film making runs in the family. What do you expect from Oliver Stone? His nephew, Matt Stone, produces similar garbage.
Most gays are queer.
Actually, if you read Dioneysseus' critically acclaimed biography of Alexander, you'll know that...
"And yet, despite his prowess upon the field of battle, it was said that Alexander was verily good with colours, always sharply turned out and that he was appreciative of the arts."
And I think we know what that means...
That he could have been the Governor of New Jersey...
What does that prove?
That gay marriage was legal in 400 BC? And that gays could adopt children?
Dan Rather just announce he has found scrolls which prove that Alexander the Great failed to fulfill his service in the palace guard service. The scrolls are from unimpeachable sources and 60 minutes II will have an interview with the author.
Go to rottentomatoes.com. They post newspaper and internet reviews from all over the country. On their scale, this movie is a giant BOMB. They grade it at 15, meaning only 15% of the critics say anything positive about it. If this movie recovers one-third of what it cost to make (150 million), I'll be surprised.
Sorry, but every man in ancient Greece practiced homosexuality. It was the norm there.
Frankly, I'm just wondering if Oliver Stone will somehow manage to work in USA soldiers being forced to rape and pillage in Vietnam in there. Come on, it's Oliver Stone, he's gotta mention that war SOMEWHERE.
Wednesday's estimates: Screens Nov 24 National Treasure 3,243 $5,680,000 The Incredibles 3,453 $4,410,000 Alexander 2,445 $3,850,000 Spongebob 3,307 $3,700,000 Polar Express 3,650 $3,500,000
You are wrong about your take on ancient greek history. Even the homosexual advocates today admit that there were no more homosexuals then as there are now.
It was NEVER normal then. The claims you state are just a propaganda developed by homoadvocates in the ivory towers over the course of the last 50 or so years.
Stone went to Greece to do research for this movie almost two years ago. He left after he did not hear what he wanted to hear and refused any assistance of historians and museum curators. (this is per the Greek Satelite TV's)
Per a review posted here, BTW, Stone's ending is supposed to be a statement against GWBush.
Thanks, so it opened third loosing out to movies which were already opened.
so it may be around 10 million this weekend and keep falling.
Perhaps hollyweird suits will learn a lesson about the unprofitability of producing "gay" movies.
By the way the link to the info is:
I forgot to include it above.
Stone Hopes Europe Will Like 'Alexander'
Thu Nov 25, 3:26 PM ET Associated Press.
STOCKHOLM, Sweden - Filmmaker Oliver Stone, whose "Alexander" got a lukewarm reception from critics in America, said Thursday he thought the three-hour epic would get a better welcome in Europe.
Stone visited the Stockholm International Film Festival to pick up a lifetime achievement award and promote "Alexander," which was having its European premiere in Stockholm.
"I think one of the reasons I am being honored here in Sweden is that (Europeans) tend to see me a little differently than they do in the U.S.," Stone told reporters.
He said the film "is not an easy movie, but then I've never made easy movies." His previous films include "JFK," "Born on the Fourth of July" and "Platoon."
Stone said the timing of the award gave him a reason to escape media attention surrounding Wednesday's U.S. premiere of "Alexander," which chronicles the life of the ancient warrior-king Alexander the Great. The film's depiction of Alexander as bisexual has come under particular scrutiny.
"To be here is a delight," Stone said. "Lifetime achievement awards don't come and go. ... I may make better films yet, or I may not. This is a moment of my life that I'd just like to pause and enjoy."
Stone will receive the Bronze Horse award from the festival Friday night. Previous recipients include Roman Polanski, David Lynch, Lauren Bacall (news) and Gena Rowlands.
seems stone is trying to beat the negative word of mouth as fast as possible.
Hollyweird makes up homosexuality where non can be proven.
Hollywierd makes "Kinsey" and dances around the homoadvocacy nature of his work and sexual activities which CAN be proven.
It was with great relief, even joy, that the top level guys in Greece saw Alexander off to conquer the world ~ at least he wasn't hanging around Greece bothering people anymore.
Modern Greeks want to think of Alexander as one of their own.
That doesn't make him straight, of course, but it also doesn't make him homosexual.
Just another Hollywood Fairy Tale
I'm so sorry to hear that. Was he "sad"?
You are dead wrong. While the ancient greeks may have considered the northern Greeks uncouth (much like americans may call arkansas "inbred hicks") they were still greek linked by language and religion.
The records and carvings in stone made at that time DURING alexander's life list him as Greek. The notion of Alexander as a non-greek is a recent propaganda creation from the cold war. (Marshal Tito creating a fake state called Macedonia as part of his land grab efforts)
There are displays at the Museum dedicated to Alexander the Great in Thesaloniki Greece which indicate this fact. The world at the time considerd all on the peninsula Greek.
As for your assertion of "happy he was gone", you have no clue. Alexander's army was composed of Greeks from the whole peninsula and make of the city states were glad to participate in the spoils.
The fact that he had wives and children of his own makes him straight. The fact there are no contemporatious records of any homsexual conduct discredits the claims of homoadvocates.
Poor battle scenes. Too much talking and not enough action. Lots of better historical battle epic type movies to see. Heck, even Troy is better than this. My 10 year old could write a better script. Bad bad movie.
I saw him once making eyes at a poodle
Alexander had 3 wives and several mistresses. He had children.
Which would not preclude bisexuality.
The word "GAY" has been so misaligned by this Unholy abominal practice.
Remember when having a gay old time was just having good clean fun?
Genesis 19:4-5 --
Now before they lay down, the men of the city, the men of Sodom, both old and young, all the people from every quarter, surrounded the house. And they called to Lot and said to him, "Where are the men who came to you tonight? Bring them out to us that we may know them carnally."
The past is murky,
but it seems clear some places
had a lot of gays . . .
...and your affirmative evidence of his bisexuality is?
The accepted culture of the Greeks at the time, as documented by contemporary writers.
Let me ask a question: Is the movie any good? Worth seeing? No evidence.
Not that there's anything WRONG with that...LOL!!
Now I gotta go back and see how many folks already said that...MUD
not true. It was never accepted and was considered a CHOICE. You mistake acceptance for minding your own business. Even the present day homoadvocates state that there was no more homosexual behavior then as there is now.
Contemporary from where? Homoadvocates from which leftist western university?
It was written as a perversion then.