Free Republic
Browse · Search
News/Activism
Topics · Post Article

Skip to comments.

Alexander wasn't gay
bible history.com ^ | Craig Johnson

Posted on 11/26/2004 8:59:56 AM PST by SusanD

Aristotle’s dictum still stands: “He who asserts must also prove.”  When you make a claim, the burden of proof is on you to demonstrate that claim. 

Let’s ask some clear, practical questions in light of Oliver Stone’s Alexander:  Did Alexander ever kiss a man on the mouth?  No evidence.  Did he ever play a passive or active role in same sex sexual unions?  No evidence.  Did he have sex of any kind with the eunuch Bagoas?  No evidence. Did he ever play footsie with men or boys at a sports bar? No evidence.  Did he have sex with Hephaestion or any other man, young or old?  No evidence.  Was he anything other than a married, heterosexual male with children who chose “power as his supreme mistress”?  The answer in concert with all the primary sources  is again: no evidence!   

Alexander clearly distained his father Philip’s alpha male excesses and was considered something of a prig with regard to sexual matters.  Interestingly enough, no one who knew them both considered Alexander either in character or in conduct to have followed in his father’s licentious  footsteps.  Instead it was said of him that “he gave the strange impression of one whose body was his servant.”  Alexander stated that his true father figure was Aristotle, for although Philip had given him life, Aristotle had taught him how to live.  

What then was Aristotle’s position on such issues. What would Alexander and Hephaestion have learned from their mentor in  three years of study?  In his Nicomachean Ethics, Aristotle distinguishes between what is naturally pleasurable from what is pleasurable without being naturally so.   

K. J. Dover explains:

“In this latter category he puts (a) things which are pleasurable because of ‘deficiencies’ or ‘impairments’ and those who find them so, (b) things which become pleasurable through habit, and (c) things which are found pleasurable by bad natures.”[xiii]

Dover cites: 

“Those who are effeminate by nature … are constituted contrary to nature; for, though male, they are so disposed that part of them (sc the rectum) is necessarily defective.  Defect, if complete, causes destruction, but if not, perversion (sc. of one’s nature). … it therefore follows that they must be distorted and have an urge in a place other than (sc. that of) procreative ejaculation.”[xiv] 

 

Dover concludes Aristotle’s thought:

 

“The writer’s concept of nature is not difficult to understand: a male who is physically constituted in such a way that he lacks something of the positive characteristics which distinguish male from female, and possesses instead a positively female characteristic, suffers from a constitutional defect contrary to nature, and a male who through habituation behaves in a way which is a positive differentia of females behaves as if he had such a defect.”[xv] 

              Non heterosexual relations are contrary to nature. But again, why should anyone care?  Why would Greek lawyers be threatening to sue Oliver Stone and Warner Brothers film studios with an extrajudicial note saying that the movie is fiction and not based on fact?  Is it a Bible-thumping, right-wing conspiracy?  No, I believe it’s only a concern for truth - clear historical facts versus Hollywood “interpra-facts”. Gay activists say that the film soft-pedals Alexander’s sexuality. Terms such as “erotic reality denyers” and “homophobic Keystone Cops” are used of anyone who dares to challenge that Alexander might actually have been just a heterosexual guy.  It is interesting to me that Alexander is not even mentioned in the important studies of homoeroticism in ancient Greece by the likes of Sir Kenneth Dover, (Greek Homosexuality, 1989), John Winkler’s The Constraints of Desire, (1990), and David Halperin’s 100 Years of Homosexuality (1990).             

SUMMARY 

In short, regardless of the sexual mores of Alexander’s time, coupled with the clear evidence of homoerotic relationships on the part of his father Philip II, at end the question of whether there is evidence in the ancient historians to suggest that Alexander was homosexual, bisexual, homoerotic, or anything else of the sort, just isn’t there.

Personally, I don’t care.  I am neither angry nor homophobic.   I just appreciate historical evidence when historical claims


TOPICS: Culture/Society; News/Current Events
KEYWORDS: alexander; alexanderthegreat; bisexual; historicalaccuracy; homosexualagenda; movie; perverts
Navigation: use the links below to view more comments.
first 1-5051-100101-111 next last
This historian looks at the actual evidence that Alexander was bi-sexual. Answer-- there is no contemporaneous evidence but merely later, unreliable gossip. Alexander had 3 wives and several mistresses. He had children. A deep friendship is not necessarily bi-sexual although most homosexuals interpret any close friendship as homosexual and prove their point by claiming that the denials of same are proof of it.
1 posted on 11/26/2004 8:59:56 AM PST by SusanD
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | View Replies]

To: SusanD

By today's standards, everyone is gay.


2 posted on 11/26/2004 9:00:48 AM PST by television is just wrong (Our sympathies are misguided with illegal aliens.)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: SusanD
I don't think we will ever have proof. We can speculate all we want. As for professionals, they often theorize on the basis of information or implication. I just hope hey would label it as such.

PS: Is the issue gay or bisexual. Since we know he had a wife, children and mistresses, it would seem the allegation would be that he swung from both sides of the plate.

3 posted on 11/26/2004 9:03:25 AM PST by verifythentrust
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: television is just wrong

Pssst! Some of us are just jovial.


4 posted on 11/26/2004 9:03:59 AM PST by hflynn
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 2 | View Replies]

To: SusanD

"Alexander had 3 wives and several mistresses. He had children."


What does that prove?


5 posted on 11/26/2004 9:04:50 AM PST by cripplecreek (I come swinging the olive branch of peace.)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: SusanD
A deep friendship is not necessarily bi-sexual although most homosexuals interpret any close friendship as homosexual and prove their point by claiming that the denials of same are proof of it.

Well, they also try to claim David and Jonathan were gay, event though there is no evidence, and their culture and religion was deeply opposed to homosexuality.

Facts and liberalism don't mix.

6 posted on 11/26/2004 9:05:31 AM PST by No_Outcome_But_Victory (Please pray for Ann, my pregnant wife.)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: SusanD
Alexander wasn't gay

Alexander wasn't homosexual.

7 posted on 11/26/2004 9:08:13 AM PST by WayneM (Remember; "Saturday people first. Sunday people next.")
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: SusanD

According to the experts on the History Channel on Tuesday night, Allie boy's lover was Hephastian (sp?). Also, when I was in college, we studied Mary Renault's writings. She was considered one of many authorities on ancient Greece. Homosexuality was the norm for males of ancient Greece, especially boys in the bath houses. Women existed to procreate and keep the house while the real pleasure for the boys was in homosexuality.


8 posted on 11/26/2004 9:08:45 AM PST by lilylangtree (Veni, Vidi, Vici)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: television is just wrong
By today's standards, everyone is gay.
Stop, or I'll scratch your eyes out!

9 posted on 11/26/2004 9:12:11 AM PST by DallasMike
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 2 | View Replies]

To: cripplecreek

It is contemporaneous evidence of Alexander engaging in normal sexual behavior. To be contrasted with the total absence of evidence to the contrary.

Does anyone have information about the early returns of Stone's "gay" movie?


10 posted on 11/26/2004 9:12:42 AM PST by longtermmemmory (VOTE!)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 5 | View Replies]

To: SusanD

The word "GAY" has been so misaligned by this Unholy abominal practice.


11 posted on 11/26/2004 9:13:08 AM PST by 26lemoncharlie (Defending America)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: SusanD
Oliver Stone merely mimics the behavior of his world -- Hollywood -- and applies it to ALL his films.

One can only hope Stone stays away from producing childrens' themes.

12 posted on 11/26/2004 9:14:38 AM PST by F16Fighter
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: cripplecreek
"Alexander had 3 wives and several mistresses. He had children."

What does that prove?

Only that his natural function was in working order. It does not disprove the negative.

13 posted on 11/26/2004 9:14:48 AM PST by D Rider
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 5 | View Replies]

To: longtermmemmory

Word is the film is a pain in the @ss...


14 posted on 11/26/2004 9:16:03 AM PST by F16Fighter
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 10 | View Replies]

To: SusanD

Don't ax, don't tell...

15 posted on 11/26/2004 9:17:12 AM PST by Libloather (It's still OK to blame the *Crintons for everything...)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: television is just wrong

Speak for yourself.


16 posted on 11/26/2004 9:17:48 AM PST by O.C. - Old Cracker (When the cracker gets old, you wind up with Old Cracker. - O.C.)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 2 | View Replies]

To: SusanD

This kind of garbage film making runs in the family. What do you expect from Oliver Stone? His nephew, Matt Stone, produces similar garbage.


17 posted on 11/26/2004 9:19:30 AM PST by O.C. - Old Cracker (When the cracker gets old, you wind up with Old Cracker. - O.C.)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: DallasMike

Most gays are queer.


18 posted on 11/26/2004 9:20:09 AM PST by fish hawk
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 9 | View Replies]

To: SusanD
It's another disgusting attempt to rewrite history to bolster the miserable "gay" life style CHOICE. They are desperately seeking to have someone, who is "gay" as a hero.
19 posted on 11/26/2004 9:22:25 AM PST by nmh (Intelligent people recognize Intelligent Design (God).)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: SusanD

Actually, if you read Dioneysseus' critically acclaimed biography of Alexander, you'll know that...

"And yet, despite his prowess upon the field of battle, it was said that Alexander was verily good with colours, always sharply turned out and that he was appreciative of the arts."

And I think we know what that means...


20 posted on 11/26/2004 9:23:01 AM PST by Slipperduke (*fixes bayonet*)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: cripplecreek

That he could have been the Governor of New Jersey...


21 posted on 11/26/2004 9:29:02 AM PST by ishabibble ((Thank you Terry Kerry!!))
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 5 | View Replies]

To: cripplecreek
"Alexander had 3 wives and several mistresses. He had children."

What does that prove?

That gay marriage was legal in 400 BC? And that gays could adopt children?

</sarcasm>

22 posted on 11/26/2004 9:32:49 AM PST by FreedomCalls (It's the "Statue of Liberty," not the "Statue of Security.")
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 5 | View Replies]

To: FreedomCalls

Dan Rather just announce he has found scrolls which prove that Alexander the Great failed to fulfill his service in the palace guard service. The scrolls are from unimpeachable sources and 60 minutes II will have an interview with the author.

(/sarcasm)


23 posted on 11/26/2004 9:36:10 AM PST by longtermmemmory (VOTE!)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 22 | View Replies]

To: longtermmemmory

Go to rottentomatoes.com. They post newspaper and internet reviews from all over the country. On their scale, this movie is a giant BOMB. They grade it at 15, meaning only 15% of the critics say anything positive about it. If this movie recovers one-third of what it cost to make (150 million), I'll be surprised.


24 posted on 11/26/2004 9:42:33 AM PST by JohnEBoy
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 10 | View Replies]

To: SusanD
I read a scholarly biography of Alexander (Alexander of Macedon) eight or ten years ago. At that time, I had heard or seen some speculation that Alexander was, like many Greeks, at least bisexual. IIRC, the author's take on the question was that there wasn't any reliable evidence Alexander was homosexual, but the evidence there was suggested Alexander was much more driven by power and conquest than sex. That has certainly been true of other great miltary figures historically, even if some of the great conquerors have been exceptionally sexually oriented. That struck me as rather more plausible than the explanation that Alexander was light in the loafers.
25 posted on 11/26/2004 9:46:18 AM PST by CatoRenasci (Ceterum Censeo Arabiam Esse Delendam -- Forsan et haec olim meminisse iuvabit)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: SusanD

Sorry, but every man in ancient Greece practiced homosexuality. It was the norm there.

Frankly, I'm just wondering if Oliver Stone will somehow manage to work in USA soldiers being forced to rape and pillage in Vietnam in there. Come on, it's Oliver Stone, he's gotta mention that war SOMEWHERE.


26 posted on 11/26/2004 9:46:33 AM PST by sporkgoddess
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: longtermmemmory
Does anyone have information about the early returns of Stone's "gay" movie?
Wednesday's estimates: Screens Nov 24
National Treasure 3,243 $5,680,000
The Incredibles 3,453 $4,410,000
Alexander 2,445 $3,850,000
Spongebob 3,307 $3,700,000
Polar Express 3,650 $3,500,000

27 posted on 11/26/2004 9:50:02 AM PST by FreedomCalls (It's the "Statue of Liberty," not the "Statue of Security.")
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 10 | View Replies]

To: sporkgoddess

You are wrong about your take on ancient greek history. Even the homosexual advocates today admit that there were no more homosexuals then as there are now.

It was NEVER normal then. The claims you state are just a propaganda developed by homoadvocates in the ivory towers over the course of the last 50 or so years.

Stone went to Greece to do research for this movie almost two years ago. He left after he did not hear what he wanted to hear and refused any assistance of historians and museum curators. (this is per the Greek Satelite TV's)

Per a review posted here, BTW, Stone's ending is supposed to be a statement against GWBush.


28 posted on 11/26/2004 9:53:09 AM PST by longtermmemmory (VOTE!)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 26 | View Replies]

To: FreedomCalls

Thanks, so it opened third loosing out to movies which were already opened.

so it may be around 10 million this weekend and keep falling.

Perhaps hollyweird suits will learn a lesson about the unprofitability of producing "gay" movies.


29 posted on 11/26/2004 9:56:46 AM PST by longtermmemmory (VOTE!)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 27 | View Replies]

To: longtermmemmory

By the way the link to the info is:

http://www.boxofficemojo.com/daily/chart/?sortdate=2004-11-24&p=.htm

I forgot to include it above.


30 posted on 11/26/2004 10:00:57 AM PST by FreedomCalls (It's the "Statue of Liberty," not the "Statue of Security.")
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 29 | View Replies]

To: All



Stone Hopes Europe Will Like 'Alexander'

Thu Nov 25, 3:26 PM ET Associated Press.


STOCKHOLM, Sweden - Filmmaker Oliver Stone, whose "Alexander" got a lukewarm reception from critics in America, said Thursday he thought the three-hour epic would get a better welcome in Europe.



Stone visited the Stockholm International Film Festival to pick up a lifetime achievement award and promote "Alexander," which was having its European premiere in Stockholm.


"I think one of the reasons I am being honored here in Sweden is that (Europeans) tend to see me a little differently than they do in the U.S.," Stone told reporters.


He said the film "is not an easy movie, but then I've never made easy movies." His previous films include "JFK," "Born on the Fourth of July" and "Platoon."


Stone said the timing of the award gave him a reason to escape media attention surrounding Wednesday's U.S. premiere of "Alexander," which chronicles the life of the ancient warrior-king Alexander the Great. The film's depiction of Alexander as bisexual has come under particular scrutiny.


"To be here is a delight," Stone said. "Lifetime achievement awards don't come and go. ... I may make better films yet, or I may not. This is a moment of my life that I'd just like to pause and enjoy."


Stone will receive the Bronze Horse award from the festival Friday night. Previous recipients include Roman Polanski, David Lynch, Lauren Bacall (news) and Gena Rowlands.


31 posted on 11/26/2004 10:02:48 AM PST by longtermmemmory (VOTE!)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 27 | View Replies]

To: All

seems stone is trying to beat the negative word of mouth as fast as possible.


32 posted on 11/26/2004 10:11:51 AM PST by longtermmemmory (VOTE!)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 31 | View Replies]

To: SusanD
The homosexual lobby commits the same fallacy in interpreting the masculine relationships in other literary works such as those of Shakespeare. They seem incapable of distinguishing between the different types of love. As Christians believe in 'romantic' love between man and woman and of a 'divine' love expressed by the term agape, western civilization has had other clearly defined types of love. Chief among these is the love between friends. When it is between two men, it is best termed as a type of camaraderie, or esprit de corps. It is a male bonding where men are best friends and dependent upon one another for survival against enemies.

Shakespeare, in his sonnets, was free to praise the beauty of one of his best friends whom he 'loved' and was trying to persuade to marry and procreate. But there was nothing homosexual about it.

I believe contemporary psychologists classify the type of fallacy the homosexual lobby commits in falsely identifying certain types of love as homosexual as 'projection.'
33 posted on 11/26/2004 10:13:09 AM PST by Ghost of Philip Marlowe (I'm fresh out of tags. I'll pick some up tomorrow.)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: sporkgoddess
Sorry, but every man in ancient Greece practiced homosexuality.

Ridiculous.

34 posted on 11/26/2004 10:46:26 AM PST by what's up
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 26 | View Replies]

To: what's up

Hollyweird makes up homosexuality where non can be proven.

Hollywierd makes "Kinsey" and dances around the homoadvocacy nature of his work and sexual activities which CAN be proven.


35 posted on 11/26/2004 10:49:51 AM PST by longtermmemmory (VOTE!)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 34 | View Replies]

To: longtermmemmory
Alexander wasn't a Greek anyway. He was a Macedonian, as was his father. Although their cultures were similar, at least the Greeks had it right at the time ~ they thought of the Macedonians as barbarians, even after they had been conquered by them.

It was with great relief, even joy, that the top level guys in Greece saw Alexander off to conquer the world ~ at least he wasn't hanging around Greece bothering people anymore.

Modern Greeks want to think of Alexander as one of their own.

That doesn't make him straight, of course, but it also doesn't make him homosexual.

36 posted on 11/26/2004 11:48:29 AM PST by muawiyah
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 28 | View Replies]

To: SusanD

Oliver Stone’s Alexander:

Just another Hollywood Fairy Tale

37 posted on 11/26/2004 11:52:50 AM PST by reg45
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: SusanD
"Alexander wasn't gay"

I'm so sorry to hear that. Was he "sad"?

38 posted on 11/26/2004 11:57:38 AM PST by InterceptPoint
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: muawiyah

You are dead wrong. While the ancient greeks may have considered the northern Greeks uncouth (much like americans may call arkansas "inbred hicks") they were still greek linked by language and religion.

The records and carvings in stone made at that time DURING alexander's life list him as Greek. The notion of Alexander as a non-greek is a recent propaganda creation from the cold war. (Marshal Tito creating a fake state called Macedonia as part of his land grab efforts)

There are displays at the Museum dedicated to Alexander the Great in Thesaloniki Greece which indicate this fact. The world at the time considerd all on the peninsula Greek.

As for your assertion of "happy he was gone", you have no clue. Alexander's army was composed of Greeks from the whole peninsula and make of the city states were glad to participate in the spoils.

The fact that he had wives and children of his own makes him straight. The fact there are no contemporatious records of any homsexual conduct discredits the claims of homoadvocates.


39 posted on 11/26/2004 12:23:10 PM PST by longtermmemmory (VOTE!)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 36 | View Replies]

To: longtermmemmory
Regardless of the gay/bisexual issue, it is a horrible movie. Bad script. You develop no compassion for any of the characters. Usually I don't like movies where the hero dies. Watching Alexander, I couldn't wait till he kicked the bucket, so the movie could be over.

Poor battle scenes. Too much talking and not enough action. Lots of better historical battle epic type movies to see. Heck, even Troy is better than this. My 10 year old could write a better script. Bad bad movie.

40 posted on 11/26/2004 12:40:39 PM PST by gswilder
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 39 | View Replies]

To: SusanD

I saw him once making eyes at a poodle


41 posted on 11/26/2004 12:43:15 PM PST by woofie
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

Comment #42 Removed by Moderator

To: SusanD
Alexander had 3 wives and several mistresses. He had children.

Which would not preclude bisexuality.

43 posted on 11/26/2004 12:45:33 PM PST by R. Scott (Humanity i love you because when you're hard up you pawn your Intelligence to buy a drink.)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: 26lemoncharlie
The word "GAY" has been so misaligned by this Unholy abominal practice.

Remember when having a gay old time was just having good clean fun?

44 posted on 11/26/2004 12:47:40 PM PST by R. Scott (Humanity i love you because when you're hard up you pawn your Intelligence to buy a drink.)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 11 | View Replies]

To: Ghost of Philip Marlowe; longtermmemmory
>The homosexual lobby commits the same fallacy in interpreting the masculine relationships in other literary works ...
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Genesis 19:4-5 --

Now before they lay down, the men of the city, the men of Sodom, both old and young, all the people from every quarter, surrounded the house. And they called to Lot and said to him, "Where are the men who came to you tonight? Bring them out to us that we may know them carnally."
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------

The past is murky,
but it seems clear some places
had a lot of gays . . .

45 posted on 11/26/2004 12:50:06 PM PST by theFIRMbss
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 33 | View Replies]

To: R. Scott

...and your affirmative evidence of his bisexuality is?


46 posted on 11/26/2004 12:56:06 PM PST by Mr. Lucky
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 43 | View Replies]

To: Mr. Lucky

The accepted culture of the Greeks at the time, as documented by contemporary writers.


47 posted on 11/26/2004 1:07:39 PM PST by R. Scott (Humanity i love you because when you're hard up you pawn your Intelligence to buy a drink.)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 46 | View Replies]

To: SusanD

Let me ask a question: Is the movie any good? Worth seeing? No evidence.


48 posted on 11/26/2004 1:09:45 PM PST by durasell (Friends are so alarming, My lover's never charming...)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: R. Scott; Ligeia; iceskater; P8riot; Delphinium
"Alexander wasn't gay..."

Not that there's anything WRONG with that...LOL!!

Now I gotta go back and see how many folks already said that...MUD

49 posted on 11/26/2004 1:10:57 PM PST by Mudboy Slim (RE-IMPEACH the HildaBeast's Hubby!!)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 47 | View Replies]

To: R. Scott

not true. It was never accepted and was considered a CHOICE. You mistake acceptance for minding your own business. Even the present day homoadvocates state that there was no more homosexual behavior then as there is now.

Contemporary from where? Homoadvocates from which leftist western university?

It was written as a perversion then.


50 posted on 11/26/2004 1:11:34 PM PST by longtermmemmory (VOTE!)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 47 | View Replies]


Navigation: use the links below to view more comments.
first 1-5051-100101-111 next last

Disclaimer: Opinions posted on Free Republic are those of the individual posters and do not necessarily represent the opinion of Free Republic or its management. All materials posted herein are protected by copyright law and the exemption for fair use of copyrighted works.

Free Republic
Browse · Search
News/Activism
Topics · Post Article

FreeRepublic, LLC, PO BOX 9771, FRESNO, CA 93794
FreeRepublic.com is powered by software copyright 2000-2008 John Robinson