EU-Russia divide boils to surface

The Globe and Mail ^ | Nov 26, 2004 | Doug Saunders

[monkeywrench]

France streets are safe for terrorists and dictators from all over the world to visit. France has undermined and profitted from both, and intends to go on profitting.Think france and palastine, france and mugabee, france and ivory coast muslims overthrowing a legitimate govt., france and algeria, france and morrocco, etc. It goes on and on.

Putin said he wasn't going to sell nuclear fuel to Iran. A couple days later Beslan happens. Then we have iran turning to france, germany, etc. demanding nuclear parts and help, and getting it. They're helping iran, now, the same way clinton did n. korea.

[JeffersonRepublic.com]

"irregularities, irregularities, irregularities"?

Everybody keeps talking about irregularities, what are they? Facts please! NO forget about facts, I haven't even heard what the irregularities are. Tell me were the dimple chads not counted, WHAT IS IT?

My personal opinion is that these “irregularities” are non-existent. They are an excuse that the EU is using to explain to the world why the Ukrainians voted against their wishes.

Holtz
JeffersonRepublic.com

[fallujah-nuker]

Many EU leaders have been rather vocal about the need to balance the American hyperpower, perhaps we need Russia to balance the EU.

[Freebird Forever]

Think france and palastine, france and mugabee, france and ivory coast muslims overthrowing a legitimate govt., france and algeria, france and morrocco, etc. It goes on and on.

Never forget that the frogs provided safe haven for the godfather of islamist terrorism, the ayatollah ruhollah khomeni.

[cicero's_son]

Many EU leaders have been rather vocal about the need to balance the American hyperpower, perhaps we need Russia to balance the EU.

That would be rather like balancing a nasty hangover with a massive head trauma.

[nw_arizona_granny]

bump

[JeffersonRepublic.com]

Jimbol wrote (a couple days ago):
“If you think Powell was freelancing, you are very naive person.”

I still think Powell acted Independently of Bush. He is a loose cannon, who is on his way out the door.

I still love you jimbol even when your mean to me. LOL

Holtz
JeffersonRepublic.com

[fallujah-nuker]

Nations do not have permanent allies, only permanent interests. Our main interest in the old world is to avoid a consolidation of power on the Eurasian landmass. The 2 entities consolidating power on Eurasia today are China and the EU, both have potential conflicts with Russia. When the show was on the other foot we sided with China and the EU against the Soviet Union.

We need to be cold blooded in our foreign policy rather than sentimental. Chirac has not allowed sentiment over the liberation of France 60 years ago to play any role in the foreign policy of France.

[cicero's_son]

Nations do not have permanent allies, only permanent interests.

I agree, except to the extent that even interests can be transitory if the geopolitical context changes.

Our main interest in the old world is to avoid a consolidation of power on the Eurasian landmass.

It is one of our main interests, yes.

We need to be cold blooded in our foreign policy rather than sentimental

No argument, here.

Chirac has not allowed sentiment over the liberation of France 60 years ago to play any role in the foreign policy of France.

Chirac is nothing but a loud-mouthed French whore and a joke. His time on the national stage has come and gone, and the only reason he is even still discussed is because of the Freedom Fries brigade here in the US. France represents as much of a threat to US interests as, say, Burkina Faso. Too many conservatives here in the US get distracted by him because he has a knack for annoying us.

Russia, on the other hand, retains some formidable military and strategic capabilities. Putin is marshalling those capabilities to attempt the restoration of the old Soviet empire. Witness his repression of ALL free media outlets in Russia. His centralization of power in Moscow. His piecemeal attempts to re-nationalize strategic industries. His interference in Belarus. His attempted hijacking of the Ukrainian elections. Do not underestimate this man or his nation.

Our interests would be best served by a unified Ukraine entering the European Union. Why? We would be "killing two bireds with one stone." First, the center of European power would tilt even more to the East (and our "New Europe" allies). Second, it would, at least temporarily, halt Putin's momentum in reconstituting the Soviet empire.

Understand that I am not saying that Russia (or even Putin) is all bad. We need them as a buffer against Chinese influence in Central Asia. But we do NOT need them pushing their borders back toward the West. Not now. Not ever.

[cicero's_son]

He is a loose cannon, who is on his way out the door.

If there is one thing Colin Powell is not, it is a loose cannon.

Time will tell.

[Johnnyboy2000]

"Putin said he wasn't going to sell nuclear fuel to Iran."

Oh well if Putin said something than it must be true. I suppose Putin also said that he wouldn't ship weapons into Iraq either. Putin already did sell nuclear fuel to Iran, along with the parts to build a nuclear reactor. Don't forget the missle technology and parts either. They don't even need any more parts from France because they are already well on their way to having a nuclear weapon with the supplies provided by your friends in Moscow.



You don't need to convince me that France is corrupt, but you've had one too many freedom fries. Russia is a much bigger threat to world peace than France. I don't think France had 5,000 nuclear weapons that it cannot keep track of. Russian also supplied Hussein's military and they continue to supply the Iranian military along with China. Have you ever noticed that every enemy America has fought in the past 40 years has been supplied with AK-47s and MIGs. Those are not made in France.

[cicero's_son]

Have you ever noticed that every enemy America has fought in the past 40 years has been supplied with AK-47s and MIGs

LOL. That's a great way of putting it!.

Unfortunately, our enemies in the 21st century will be fighting us with modified versions of our own weaponry, "made in China."

Just another facet of the "Clinton legacy."

[Johnnyboy2000]

"Unfortunately, our enemies in the 21st century will be fighting us with modified versions of our own weaponry, "made in China.""

That is a frightening prospect. I've never really thought about the threat of China in that exact context, but it is all but inevitable. Hopefully we can stay ahead of them, or at least tied with them in the technological arms race of the next century. Some people think that we never needed a military again because the Berlin wall came down. I hope Bush makes some major progress advancing our military capabilities, so that China will have even more trouble catching up to us.

[cicero's_son]

Some people think that we never needed a military again because the Berlin wall came down.

The only real budget cuts Clinton made during his 8 years were to the military. Other departments just got "growth reductions."

History will not be kind to that man.

[KOZ.]

Fair Opinion might be a muzzie who is supportive of Russia's agreement to supply Iran with nuclear fuel for the Russian-built Bushehr reactor. Someone who wants Iran to get the bomb.

fairopinion is a Russian who thinks that the Ukrainian people are subhuman and don't deserve freedom. that they need to have Russia in charge because they are too stupid to do it themselves. thats why he would support Putin funding yanukovich, and would not support the us, bush, Powell, NATO, EU in saying that this was a fraudulent election. with him, its Russia first. freedom for a sovereign, free, and independent nation second.

[fallujah-nuker]

Cicero's son wrote "Chirac is nothing but a loud-mouthed French whore and a joke. His time on the national stage has come and gone, and the only reason he is even still discussed is because of the Freedom Fries brigade here in the US. France represents as much of a threat to US interests as, say, Burkina Faso. Too many conservatives here in the US get distracted by him because he has a knack for annoying us.

Russia, on the other hand, retains some formidable military and strategic capabilities. Putin is marshalling those capabilities to attempt the restoration of the old Soviet empire. Witness his repression of ALL free media outlets in Russia. His centralization of power in Moscow. His piecemeal attempts to re-nationalize strategic industries. His interference in Belarus. His attempted hijacking of the Ukrainian elections. Do not underestimate this man or his nation.

Our interests would be best served by a unified Ukraine entering the European Union. Why? We would be "killing two bireds with one stone." First, the center of European power would tilt even more to the East (and our "New Europe" allies). Second, it would, at least temporarily, halt Putin's momentum in reconstituting the Soviet empire.

Understand that I am not saying that Russia (or even Putin) is all bad. We need them as a buffer against Chinese influence in Central Asia. But we do NOT need them pushing their borders back toward the West. Not now. Not ever."

Very good post. I think we both see China as a far larger threat to the US than either Russia or the EU. I think that a breakup of Russia would be a catastrophe for US interests in that it would lead to Chinese control of Siberia. I much prefer Russia across the Bering Straits to China.

I think we agree of Chirac, but his views are common in much of western Europe. I recall that in Germany Schroeder pulled out victory from the jaws of defeat in the last election by appealing to anti-Americanism. This is not all that new either, I recall Charles DeGaulle was hostile to the US back in Eisenhower's day. French complaints about the American "hyperpower" began under Clinton, not Bush.

I think it would be harmful to our interests to see the Ukraine incorporated into the EU. The EU may be militarily weak today but it took very little time for the Wiemar Republic to become the Third Reich. I would prefer to see the EU weakened rather than strengthened. Anyway tension between the EU and Russia works to our benefit.

[theFIRMbss]

>How long have you been writing in Haiku? ... I must admit that your posts stand out more than they would otherwise

[cicero's_son]

think we both see China as a far larger threat to the US than either Russia or the EU.

For the time being, absolutely. And for the forseeable(!) future as well.

French complaints about the American "hyperpower" began under Clinton, not Bush.

This is so true, and yet so infrequently noted. I remember telling people during the 2nd Clinton term that we were in danger of so damaging our European ties that it would be hard for any future president to repair them.

One of Clinton's many great failures in foreign policy was his failure to find a cause large enough for Europe and the US to remain united. His foreign policy was essentially the foreign policy of the old Barbary pirates--economic guerilla warfare! Rather than promoting genuine market-based capitalism in the old Soviet bloc, he permitted gangsterism to thrive while US corporations went in and bought distressed assets on the cheap.

Meanwhile, he was more interested in taking campaign contributions from the Chinese and giving them our technology than in promoting a healthy competitive relationship with them. Tragic.

I think it would be harmful to our interests to see the Ukraine incorporated into the EU. The EU may be militarily weak today but it took very little time for the Wiemar Republic to become the Third Reich. I would prefer to see the EU weakened rather than strengthened. Anyway tension between the EU and Russia works to our benefit.

I agree that tension between the EU and Russia is a good thing for us, and that is another reason why I feel our interests are served by the Ukraine joining the EU. Right now, France and Germany retain (barely) control over the EU. In order to retain that control, they must prevent the eastward expansion of the organization. This is a prime reason for Chirac's position vis a vis Turkey and the eastern European applicants. Russia and France (aside from being old allies going back many centuries) are of one mind on this issue. Both want to stop eastward expansion of the EU. Russia, because she does not want her former subjects to escape her sphere of influence, and France because she wants to retain control of Europe's destiny.

BTW--I saw your posts recently on trade policy and really enjoyed them. Are you an economist?

[Constitutionalist Conservative]

Wow, that sounded worse than I meant it.

[fallujah-nuker]

Thanks for the compliment, I am actually work in avionics repair. I took the liberty of checking your posts, I enjoyed your caveat in this thread:
http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/1286431/posts?page=30#30

I think we pretty much see eye to eye here. I've heard people who've been to Russia talk about some of the assets taken under Yeltsin, do you more about this? I have a friend who went on several missions to Russia with his church in the 90 who talks of this.

On the subject of the EU, I think her greatest threat is Islamic immigration. Perhaps the recent murder in Holland will awaken the Dutch to their fate if present trends continue. I consider the EU a rival but would consider it a tragedy worse than 1453 if Europe were to collapse to Islam.