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I need some facts concerning poverty and the Bush tax cut

Posted on 12/01/2004 6:04:00 PM PST by OklaRancher

I belong to a Methodist Church in a rural area with a small congretion of 30 or so. This past Sunday the Pastor started his sermon by saying how much good the Bush tax cut could have done if it had been used to alleviate poverty.


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KEYWORDS: bushtaxcut; bushtaxcuts; poverty; zot
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I belong to a Methodist Church in a rural area with a small congretion of 30 or so. This past Sunday the Pastor started his sermon by saying how much good the Bush tax cut could have done if it had been used to alleviate poverty. He then went on to say that the gap between the rich and the poor in this country has never been greater. I don't know what he said after this as I walked out as he had assured me a few months ago that the pulpit would not be used for political purposes. Now as I contemplate my possibile response to this situation I am in need of facts concerning the Bush tax cut and the good it did this great nation and the alleged wide gap between the rich and poor. My guess is that the Bush administration has done plenty to alleviate poverty. Thanks for any facts you might provide.........
1 posted on 12/01/2004 6:04:01 PM PST by OklaRancher
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To: OklaRancher
Welcome to the forum. Click here.
2 posted on 12/01/2004 6:07:05 PM PST by Coop (In memory of a true hero - Pat Tillman)
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To: OklaRancher
I see nothing wrong with using the pulpit for political purposes. So long as it doesn't stray from teaching the good moral values. What I do see wrong is your pastor has his facts all wrong.

While I don't have hard facts in front of me at the moment, I hope that you get what your looking for and set your pastor straight.

3 posted on 12/01/2004 6:08:06 PM PST by BigSkyFreeper (Congratulations President-Re-Elect George W. Bush!)
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To: OklaRancher

Just tell him you gave part of your tax cut as tithing to the church instead of letting the government fund the ACLU, National Endowment for the Arts (cross in urine), and planned parenthood.


4 posted on 12/01/2004 6:08:34 PM PST by JustAnotherOkie
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To: OklaRancher

If your pastor believes that more taxes equals giving to the poor, ask him how much of his income above the required amount he gives to the government. Liberals are so screwed up. They actually believe that taxes equal charitable giving. This is why the states that are taxed the highest (all blue) have the LOWEST per capita giving despite having 50 million FEWER adults.

The Methodist Church has been taken over by liberals who don't even bother to read the bible. Find a good Southern Baptist church and go there.


5 posted on 12/01/2004 6:12:10 PM PST by Blood of Tyrants (God is not a Republican. But Satan is definitely a Democrat.)
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To: OklaRancher

We've spent 4-6 trillion dollars in the "war on poverty" in the past 40 years. At what point do you accept that a transfer of wealth doesn't work.

It's the old "give a man a fish........."

Some people will be poor even if given a million dollars. There will just be a short period in their life that they weren't poor.


6 posted on 12/01/2004 6:12:22 PM PST by digger48
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To: OklaRancher
The benefits of tax cuts -- inasmuch as they contribute to a growing economy -- are well-documented elsewhere.

You might want to remind the pastor that taking care of the poor is the moral responsibility of (properly led)Christians as individuals, not the Government.

7 posted on 12/01/2004 6:12:25 PM PST by Mr. Buzzcut (metal god)
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To: OklaRancher
He then went on to say that the gap between the rich and the poor in this country has never been greater.

In any well functioning economy the gap between rich and poor will always be getting larger as there will always be people with zero.

8 posted on 12/01/2004 6:12:28 PM PST by Rodney King (No, we can't all just get along)
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To: OklaRancher

You're going to have a very tough time disputing what the preacher says...However; when you find out his/her views on queer preachers and marriage, Israel, salvation, etc.,, you probably would have walked out anyway...


9 posted on 12/01/2004 6:12:31 PM PST by Iscool (Life, Liberty, and the pursuit of those who threaten it !!!)
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To: Coop

i was told once that for every dollar the USG spends (taxes) the private sector would turn that dollar over 5 to 7 times. i think there is some truth to this but not sure of exact numbers


10 posted on 12/01/2004 6:12:34 PM PST by camas
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To: OklaRancher
ok, this is only tongue & cheek - if he feels so strongly then he could give up the church's tax exempt status

but seriously, if you do a little research I think you could come up with some info. outlining that massive amount of $$$ spent on the "war on poverty" since the 60s and then compare hat against the % of US population classified as impoverished over the time period since. Extrapolating the relationship of public $$$ spent to poor population and I would imagine that many hundreds of billions, if not trillions, would be required in order to eliminate "poverty". Wish I could just give you the facts and figures but I do not know them off of the top of my head.
11 posted on 12/01/2004 6:14:06 PM PST by Texas_Jarhead
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To: OklaRancher
Ask him if he and his wife gave that $600 that Bush made sure they got in 2001, to the poor and if so did he deduct it from his taxes as a charitable contribution reducing his tax liability so he could give even more money to the poor.

Ask him how much LBJs Great Society has spent on stamping out poverty and why it's been such a failure.

12 posted on 12/01/2004 6:15:22 PM PST by A.A. Cunningham
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To: OklaRancher

The tax cut will alleviate more poverty the way it's being worked now than if double the amount had been tendered to the poor in the form of handouts.


13 posted on 12/01/2004 6:17:40 PM PST by Mr Ramsbotham (Laws against sodomy are honored in the breech.)
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To: OklaRancher
The only words in the Bible that libs know are the few regarding the poor.

I don`t have any idea the theology of the church you attend but if this is an issue of more pressing concern than salvation through Jesus it may be time to find another place of worship.

14 posted on 12/01/2004 6:19:01 PM PST by carlr
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To: OklaRancher
First, unfortunately, there is an ever widening gap between the rich and poor. The problem being, the poorest Americans have no capital to invest to grow wealth. The rich are rich because they generate wealth. Some of it manages to get to those lower on the economic scale, but it is a by-product of capitalism, and therefore unavoidable.

As far as your search for facts, this web page; http://www.econ.umn.edu/~bplatt/Rational/TaxCuts.htm gives some factual information directly related to the Bush tax cuts as well as a tax chart showing who got what cut and how they were effected economically. A quote from the page being

"Bear in mind that this is actual historical data coming straight from the 1040 forms that you and I submit - we aren't just talking about what happened "in theory," but what actually happened. Notice that every taxpayer earning less than $200,000 dollars received a tax cut, effectively giving them between a 1.4% to 2.6% raise in income. Remarkably, the only people seeing savings of 2% or more are those earning less than $20,000. The idea that the tax cut only helped the rich is complete falsehood."

Hopefully this'll help in your search.

15 posted on 12/01/2004 6:19:51 PM PST by infidel29 (America is GREAT because she is GOOD, the moment she ceases to be GOOD, she ceases to be GREAT - B.F)
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To: OklaRancher

in order for government to end poverty, they must hire four people to oversee the spending, one to collect, one to verify collection, one to verify distribution and one to distribute. for those government employees, poverty ends. unfortunately, the government does not earn money, but must take it from taxpayers. these taxpayers if not supporting government, would be supporting charities that actually would help the poor.

you will not change your pastor's mind... you are better off in another church.

teeman


16 posted on 12/01/2004 6:19:52 PM PST by teeman8r
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To: digger48
Some people will be poor even if given a million dollars. There will just be a short period in their life that they weren't poor.

Rodney King is a prime example. He got millions after his nationally televised role as an LAPD piñata, but pissed it all away and wound up back in jail inside of two years. Poverty isn't a financial circumstance, it's a state of mind.

17 posted on 12/01/2004 6:24:00 PM PST by mvpel (Michael Pelletier)
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To: JustAnotherOkie

Those are good ones. Private charity is simply far more effective that government spending:

"...if an individual gives a dollar to charity, he should be able to reduce his tax liability by a dollar. Since current federal welfare spending is equivalent to 41 percent of the revenue generated from personal income taxes (for all major means-tested programs), the credit could be capped at 41 percent of tax liability.

Private charities are able to individualize their approach to the circumstances of poor people in ways that governments can never do. For example, private charities may reduce or withhold benefits if a recipient does not change his or her behavior. Private charities are much more likely than government programs to offer counseling and one-on-one follow-up rather than simply providing a check. "

"Private charities are also much better able to target assistance to those who really need help. Because eligibility requirements for government welfare programs are arbitrary and cannot be changed to fit individual circumstances, many people in genuine need do not receive assistance, while benefits often go to people who do not really need them. More than 40 percent of all families living below the poverty level receive no government assistance. Yet, more than half of the families receiving means- tested benefits are not poor. Thus, a student may receive food stamps, while a homeless man with no mailing address goes without. Private charities are not bound by such bureaucratic restrictions."

"In 1965, 70 cents of every dollar spent by the government to fight poverty went directly to poor people. Today, 70 cents of every dollar goes not to poor people, but to government bureaucrats and others who serve the poor. Few private charities have the bureaucratic overhead and inefficiency of government programs."

Read the whole thing at the Cato institute website. Its a congressional testimony.

http://www.cato.org/testimony/ct-ta3-9.html


18 posted on 12/01/2004 6:24:19 PM PST by Canuckistan
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To: infidel29
Notice that every taxpayer earning less than $200,000 dollars received a tax cut, effectively giving them between a 1.4% to 2.6% raise in income.

No sorry that's wrong, they just let us keep more of our money already earned.

19 posted on 12/01/2004 6:27:15 PM PST by this_ol_patriot
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To: OklaRancher
Whack him over the head with the King James Bible:

Matthew 26:11 "26:11 For ye have the poor always with you; but me ye have not always."

20 posted on 12/01/2004 6:27:25 PM PST by xJones (I was tagged once and it hurt.)
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To: OklaRancher
This guy is advocating Rome's position, Biblically, and in the process strangling the Church, increasing social decay and funding abortionists and anti-Christian doctrine...Satan is at work in the Church and this populist doctrine is the sheep's clothing.

Here is Tony Campolo (Kerry voting Christian) accompanying Bill Clinton out of Ron Brown's funeral. Tony advocates socialism at the cost of baby-slaughter and Christian persecution.

21 posted on 12/01/2004 6:29:32 PM PST by Outraged (specter (n.) - 1. A ghostly apparition; a phantom.)
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I think the key in dealing with problems like this if realizing where the church stands on the inerrancy of Scripture. Usually those denominations or branches of denominations which do not hold to the inspiration of Scripture by the Holy Spirit, are the ones who then theink it is okay to interpret things they way they want, rather than the intent of the Author. A greater issue than your pastor souting off without facts on a politiacl issue, is that it might be indicative of how he handles other issues. Spiritual matters are too important to allow to rest on some preacher's opinion.
The inerrancy of Scripture just mans that the Holy Spirit inspired the original authors, and that God got written what He wanted written. The copies we have today are very good, and the studying of the texts shows they are the best attested documents in history.
What this means is, if it really was God Who was speaking, and if we really have what God wants us to know, there is an accountability. He says lying is wrong, so spouting an opinion on politics which is not based on fact, would be a sin to Him. If the pastor twists other areas of Scripture to allow for homosexuality, for abortion, etc., God is not pleased.
Discernment on alot of issues comes from one's understanding of inerrancy. Where do we get truth?


22 posted on 12/01/2004 6:30:22 PM PST by gentlestrength
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To: OklaRancher

I used to be a UM pastor, and even was an associate to one of the most liberal senior pastors in a liberal conference! My tenure with him was the beginning of my life as a conservative, as I saw his beliefs as bankrupt and dishonest and basically a grab for power.

First of all, pastors are poor economists. You'll see that whenever you see the resolutions passed by your Annual Conference (as well as the governing bodies of most "old line" denominations). Don't expect to actually argue economics with him/her. You begin by telling him/her that you're going to use "Scripture, Reason, Tradition and Experience" in your discussions. Even they you're fighting 4 years of seminary liberal indoctrination.

Second, you might remind the pastor of John Wesley's advice ("Standard Sermons", as I recall) of "Earn all you can, save all you can, that you might give all that you can." I think this is the definitive statement of conservative charity. It doesn't mention "tax all you can that you can send all the welfare checks you can."

Third, John Wesley didn't advocate taxation for the support of the poor. Wesley's ministries, along with those of early Methodists, never turned to the Church of England or the Crown to address the very distressing social and economic problems of the era. Instead they used religious beliefs, along with limited acts of charity, to change the behavior of those in poverty, and thus bring them out of poverty.

In my 43 years on earth, the United Methodist's liberal voices (the ones you hear at Annual and General conferences) have never had a president that they thought was liberal enough. Their idea of social change (unlike Wesley) is to stay in their upscale NYCity headquarters, hang with the United Nations crowd, and demand that governments do something with other people's taxes.

It's impossible to quantify how Bush's tax cuts have impacted the poor. What we know is that this country had the worst stock market crash in history, followed by a war caused by the worst attack on the USA in our history, and we barely had a recession. My opinion is that Bush's tax cuts, along with low interest rates, greatly softened the blow. To the extent that wealthy people were able to resume their charitable acts sooner, the poor most certainly were the beneficiaries.



23 posted on 12/01/2004 6:30:30 PM PST by TWohlford
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To: teeman8r; BigSkyFreeper
you will not change your pastor's mind...

You beat me to it.  Post#3 suggested a hope to "set your pastor straight" but I've never known any pastor to ever be 'set straight' by a parishioner.  OTOH, fellow believers may be another story...

.

24 posted on 12/01/2004 6:30:34 PM PST by expat_panama
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To: Outraged

Tony Campolo and Bill Clinton are good buds.


25 posted on 12/01/2004 6:31:18 PM PST by Outraged (specter (n.) - 1. A ghostly apparition; a phantom.)
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To: Blood of Tyrants


God is not a Southerner, either. We have pretty good Evangelical churches in the North, too.


26 posted on 12/01/2004 6:32:06 PM PST by Paperdoll
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To: OklaRancher

If your Methodist minister is like mine there are no facts in existence that will ever sway them from there liberal position. I have tried on Kerry, Iraq, Israel, Boy Scouting, etc. After the election I then got to listen to the sermons on grieving and rightwing christian zealots. Back to your question; ask their definition of poverty and expand it to include morals. Good results with it so far. I haven't been excommunicated.


27 posted on 12/01/2004 6:32:38 PM PST by crazyhorse691 (We won. We don't need to be forgiving. Let the heads roll!!!!!!!!!)
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To: expat_panama
Post#3 suggested a hope to "set your pastor straight" but I've never known any pastor to ever be 'set straight' by a parishioner.

Maybe they never tried. Either make the effort to set the pastor straight, or find a new parish to attend.

28 posted on 12/01/2004 6:33:03 PM PST by BigSkyFreeper (Congratulations President-Re-Elect George W. Bush!)
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To: OklaRancher
"Compassion comes from the heart, not the government." -- Edward Britton
"The greater the desire to perform humanitarian deeds through legislation, the greater the violence required to achieve it." -- Ron Paul
"It is easy to be conspicuously 'compassionate' if others are being forced to pay the cost." -- Murray N. Rothbard
"The point to remember is that what the government gives, it must first take away." -- John S. Coleman
"Jesus would never use government surrogates to force the people to 'help others'." -- Philip Freneau
"Helping the poor through the government is like feeding the sparrows through cows" -- Walter Williams
"Government is not reason, it is not eloquence -- it is force." -- George Washington
"Government is not compassion ... Government is nothing more than structured, widespread coercion ..." -- Glen Allport
.
"To embrace a collectivist system ... and thereby jeopardize sustained economic growth, inevitably misallocate scarce resources, and almost necessarily perpetuate destitution, hardly merits moral acclaim. Indeed, intellectuals in general and church leaders in particular who bewail the continued existence of poverty absolutely defined, and who state that they yearn for a world in which the hungry are fed, the naked clothed, and the destitute housed, yet who ceaselessly undermine the very system which, to date, has best done what they claim to value most, are, surely, moral imbeciles." -- The Reverend Doctor John K. Williams
29 posted on 12/01/2004 6:34:12 PM PST by FreeKeys ("Politicians ... accuse you of 'greed' ... for wanting to keep your own money." -- Joseph Sobran)
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To: OklaRancher
The best general reply to your pastor, or to anyone who claims money sent to the government is somehow more beneficial than taxpayers keeping their own money is contained in this book: Economics in One Lesson: The Shortest and Surest Way to Understand Basic Economics by HENRY HAZLITT. Anyone can read it, and anyone can understand it. It will tell you in a nutshell what the conservative/libertarian philosophy regarding "public" economics is.
30 posted on 12/01/2004 6:34:23 PM PST by FredZarguna (Free markets. Free Speech. Free Minds. But no Free Lunch.)
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To: OklaRancher

Stay away from preachers that use the pulpit for political commentary. Besides, your pastor is a moron. The tax cut improved the economy and the poor are the first to be hurt by economic decline.


31 posted on 12/01/2004 6:35:11 PM PST by anton
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To: teeman8r
you will not change your pastor's mind... you are better off in another church.

Can't hurt to try and change the pastor's views. I agree, if one can't make the effort to get their views known to the pastor, it's time to move on. One of the things the Lord encourages is a dialogue between you and Him. If your pastor can't feel that way, go somewhere where your voice can be heard freely.

32 posted on 12/01/2004 6:36:14 PM PST by BigSkyFreeper (Congratulations President-Re-Elect George W. Bush!)
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To: FreeKeys

"The greatest tyrannies are always perpetrated in the name of the noblest causes." ~Thomas Paine.


33 posted on 12/01/2004 6:37:22 PM PST by FredZarguna (Free markets. Free Speech. Free Minds. But no Free Lunch.)
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To: OklaRancher
This past Sunday the Pastor started his sermon by saying how much good the Bush tax cut could have done if it had been used to alleviate poverty.

Your pastor is an unmitigated idiot and should be chased out of the parish.

First, he is directly contradicting God's will by advocating that the government should reverse our "Free Will" by forcefull redistributing income to the poverty striken.

By all accounts such charity should come from the Church, voluntarily, from it's members. They would have more money to do so via George Bush's tax cuts, so really, GW has already helped to alleviate poverty in the sense that God would have done so. In doing so, GW is permitting God's children to work to that end via free will as opposed to confiscatory policy of a souless governing force.

It is through this free will that we serve the Lord and in doing so earn our place in heaven.

Your pastor's implication would rob us all of free will, and deprive us from earing that place in heaven, effectively condemning us to damnation in the worst case scenario.

My wife's final words are that your pastor is in no way a real pastor, but a socialist advocating government over God. Government will come to the rescue, and lead all the lost children to the land of milk and honey and limitless entitlements. Whatever his position is, it is in no way based upon biblical teachings. It's a poorly disguised attempt from someone who really doesn't care about what the bible has to say so much as pushing a political position.

So anyway, welcome to FR. I needed to vent, so thanks for introducing me to your pastor...

34 posted on 12/01/2004 6:37:34 PM PST by Caipirabob (Democrats.. Socialists..Commies..Traitors...Who can tell the difference?)
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To: FreeKeys
"I cannot undertake to lay my finger on that article of the Constitution which granted a right to Congress of expending, on objects of benevolence, the money of their constituents." - James Madison
35 posted on 12/01/2004 6:37:52 PM PST by Outraged (specter (n.) - 1. A ghostly apparition; a phantom.)
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To: digger48
Some people will be poor even if given a million dollars. There will just be a short period in their life that they weren't poor.

A agree. Lately I have taken up the sport of pondering the obvious such as the saying, "The Rich get Richer."

People who are good at making, saving and investing money usually stay that way and/or get better at it as they go along. The same goes for those who are not and do not.

36 posted on 12/01/2004 6:38:05 PM PST by msnimje
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To: OklaRancher
Matthew 25:14-30 14“For it is as if a man, going on a journey, summoned his slaves and entrusted his property to them; 15to one he gave five talents, to another two, to another one, to each according to his ability. Then he went away. 16The one who had received the five talents went off at once and traded with them, and made five more talents. 17In the same way, the one who had the two talents made two more talents. 18But the one who had received the one talent went off and dug a hole in the ground and hid his master’s money. 19After a long time the master of those slaves came and settled accounts with them. 20Then the one who had received the five talents came forward, bringing five more talents, saying, ‘Master, you handed over to me five talents; see, I have made five more talents.’ 21His master said to him, ‘Well done, good and trustworthy slave; you have been trustworthy in a few things, I will put you in charge of many things; enter into the joy of your master.’ 22And the one with the two talents also came forward, saying, ‘Master, you handed over to me two talents; see, I have made two more talents.’ 23His master said to him, ‘Well done, good and trustworthy slave; you have been trustworthy in a few things, I will put you in charge of many things; enter into the joy of your master.’ 24Then the one who had received the one talent also came forward, saying, ‘Master, I knew that you were a harsh man, reaping where you did not sow, and gathering where you did not scatter seed; 25so I was afraid, and I went and hid your talent in the ground. Here you have what is yours.’ 26But his master replied, ‘You wicked and lazy slave! You knew, did you, that I reap where I did not sow, and gather where I did not scatter? 27Then you ought to have invested my money with the bankers, and on my return I would have received what was my own with interest. 28So take the talent from him, and give it to the one with the ten talents. 29For to all those who have, more will be given, and they will have an abundance; but from those who have nothing, even what they have will be taken away. 30As for this worthless slave, throw him into the outer darkness, where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.’ NRSV translation
37 posted on 12/01/2004 6:41:34 PM PST by Raycpa (Alias, VRWC_minion,)
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To: OklaRancher

I can sum it up this way..............

About 68 cents of every dollar spent by the U.S. government goes to social welfare.

Less than twenty cents goes to Defense.

50% of the people in this nation pay ZERO income taxes.

The "rich" and the middle class get screwed in this country. The "poor" have NEVER had it better, as the wealth transfer process is pushing Marxist type boundaries in America.

Your pastor is nuts. You did right to walk out. I did the same thing when my priest in my Catholic church paraphrased the same crap about four years ago.

If you need actual/offical data, please send me a private email.


38 posted on 12/01/2004 6:43:24 PM PST by Dont_Tread_On_Me_888 (John Kerry--three fake Purple Hearts. George Bush--one real heart of gold.)
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To: OklaRancher

The statistics are grossly slanted. A huge portion of the people in poverty are illegal immigrants and the children of single parents.

If you graduate from high school, don't have kids until you are married and stay married your chances of not living in poverty are tremendously elevated.

Higher taxes may hurt the rich but they hurt those trying to break out of poverty even more.


39 posted on 12/01/2004 6:43:24 PM PST by TASMANIANRED (Free the Fallujah one)
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To: OklaRancher

For ye have the poor with you always, and whensoever ye will ye may do them good: but me ye have not always.


40 posted on 12/01/2004 6:43:45 PM PST by Raycpa (Alias, VRWC_minion,)
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To: OklaRancher
Go search boortz.com on Google and find Neal's fine essay on what constitutes "poverty" in the US. Those officially below the poverty line have a roff over their heads, indoor plumbing, air conditioning, cable to their color TV, cellphones and a car.

And the "go to bed hungry" stat you hear, well if Trump is too lazy to ring for a servant to fetch him a sandwich and he goes to be hungry BY CHOICE, that how the "milions go to bed hungry" stat is counted.

I'm not for people to be in misery or go hungry, but a lot of the liberal "guilt trip" they try and lay on us is bogus.

41 posted on 12/01/2004 6:46:41 PM PST by Doctor Raoul ( ----- HERTZ: We're #1 ----- AVIS: We're #2 We Try Harder ----- CBS: We're #3 We LIE Harder)
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To: OklaRancher

Here's what a Lutheran Minister has to say on the subject.

By the way, my late grandfather was a Methodist minister, and I believe he'd roll over in his grave if he saw what has become of the church today. Anyway:

Thursday, April 10, 2003
Tax Cuts Benefit Lowest Income Workers


by Joe Watkins

President Bush’s proposal to create jobs and stimulate economic growth is the perfect remedy to create jobs and fix the ailing economy. Contrary to what the Democrat mythmakers continue to say the President’s tax cut benefits lower income families the most. Don’t believe it? Check out the facts.

A recent report by the Treasury Department noted that workers earning under $30,000 a year will see an average 17% cut in their taxes. In contrast, those making over $100,000 a year would see their taxes cut an average 11%. Lower income workers will see a larger percentage of their wages returned to them than higher wage earners.

There is more good news, who benefits the most from President Bush’s proposal to eliminate the dividend tax cut - seniors living on fixed incomes. Roughly half of the money put back into taxpayers’ pockets by the dividend tax cut will go to seniors who rely on dividend income as a steady source of retirement income. Again, contrary to the Democrat mythmakers’ claims, these are not rich Americans. Over 40% of the taxpayers that will benefit from eliminating the double tax on dividends earn less than $50,000 a year.

Under President Bush’s jobs and growth plan, families with income under $50,000 will pay a smaller share of the nation’s total income tax burden than they do today, while those making over $100,000 a year will see their share increase to over 73% of the total income tax burden. While higher wage earners will see their taxes cut they will continue to carry the greatest tax burden for our nation.

This President understands that when government cuts taxes, all Americans benefit. Consumer confidence grows because people have more cash on hand to invest and spend. Businesses benefit from increased consumer spending, and are then able to increase their capital investment, which in turn creates more jobs. That’s not "trickle down" that is trickle up - consumers who have more of their own earnings spend more and fuel economic growth.

For those who need further proof of the soundness of the President’s plan there is the evidence of history. In the last forty years, the reduction of taxes has specifically resulted in a significant rise in the Gross Domestic Product (GDP), a drop in the rate of unemployment and a rise in federal revenues. This was true of both the Kennedy and Reagan tax cuts. The Bush tax package will do the same for jobs and growth.

His plan includes tax relief that works for working families like reducing the marriage tax penalty, increasing the child tax credit, and accelerating already enacted rate reductions. These are right for the average taxpayer because it puts more money in their pocket and they are the right remedies for the overall economy because they spur consumer spending, thus boosting the economic recovery. Plainly put, President Bush is on our side.




Joe Watkins, a director of Hill Solutions, is a frequent political analyst for Fox News Channel. He served as associate director of public liaison in President George H.W. Bush's White House and has been the pastor of Christ Evangelical Lutheran Church since 1998. He and his wife Stephanie have been married for nearly 28 years and have three children, a son-in-law and a grandson.


42 posted on 12/01/2004 6:48:38 PM PST by mwfsu84
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To: OklaRancher
Tell your pastor they should take a quick survey of the parking lot. Any high priced Euro-steel with a Kerry Edwards sticker on it should be noted and the owners made to sell it and buy an American car because those thoughtless Kerry Edwards supporters are stealing good paying American manufacturing jobs from hardworking Americans.

If only the Kerry Edwards supporters would do two things, stop being hypocritres and act like Americans, there wouildn't be any poverty in the US.

43 posted on 12/01/2004 6:50:51 PM PST by Doctor Raoul ( ----- HERTZ: We're #1 ----- AVIS: We're #2 We Try Harder ----- CBS: We're #3 We LIE Harder)
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To: digger48

The definition of poor has changed.

As someone who became fatherless in the depression I know what poor means. It was a struggle for food,clothing,and shelter and we went without a telephone until 1953.

Poor today means no cable,no computer,no summer camp,neo cell phone,and no "in" wardrobe or jewelry.

It boggles the mind.


44 posted on 12/01/2004 6:52:06 PM PST by Mears
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To: OklaRancher

Your pastor has probably adopted a social justice interpretation of the bible. This is a big problem. Smoke him out by asking if man can bring God's kingdom here on earth BEFORE Christ returns. Social justice folks think its their role to bring the kingdom ahead of Jesus. This is a very dangerous theology, not to mention flat out wrong.


45 posted on 12/01/2004 6:55:37 PM PST by Raycpa (Alias, VRWC_minion,)
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To: mwfsu84
He and his wife Stephanie have been married for nearly 28 years and have three children, a son-in-law and a grandson.

Or if Kerry had been elected, "He is an enemy of the State."

46 posted on 12/01/2004 6:56:04 PM PST by Doctor Raoul ( ----- HERTZ: We're #1 ----- AVIS: We're #2 We Try Harder ----- CBS: We're #3 We LIE Harder)
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To: Raycpa

"For ye have the poor with you always, and whensoever ye will ye may do them good: but me ye have not always"

Thats ridiculous, insofar as it insinuates that we should not care for the poor. The Bible clearly states that giving to the needy is extremely important. It also has plently of examples of the corroption that power brings. Charity is one of the great christian virtues. Government is the enemy of charity because it wastes money that would have been better spent and lulls people into thinking that they have no personal responsobility to alleviate suffering.

People who are saying that the liberal pastor will not listen to reason probably haven't spent a moment of their life talking reasonably to a liberal. Don't have so little faith in the ability of a person to see the light. People do, and they do because the rest of us don't give up. To assume you can't win someone over is to lose.

On the other hand, liberal churches rarely have much respect for the bible, so when it comes to the Christian growth of the poster, it may be good to find a different church.


47 posted on 12/01/2004 6:57:48 PM PST by Canuckistan
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To: OklaRancher

Simply put, your preacher is evil liar. Go elsewhere.


48 posted on 12/01/2004 6:57:54 PM PST by Sloth (Al Franken is a racist.)
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To: OklaRancher

Ask him if he has any idea of how much the federal government and the state governments give in "Cash and Noncash Benefits for Persons With Limited Income". Persons with limited incomes are the "poor".

See if he comes anywhere near the $437 billion (year 2000).

When you ask him, have in your pocket Table No. 540. Cash and Noncash Benefits for Persons With Limited Income:
1999 and 2000 from the Statistical Abstract of the United States, put out by the Census Bureau. You can find it at:

http://www.census.gov/prod/2004pubs/03statab/socinsur.pdf

Then ask him how much charities give to the poor. Have in your pocket a copy of Table No. 581 (scroll down on the linked page) Private Philanthropy Funds by Source and Allocation: 1990 to 2002 and show him how much of the over $200 billion in charitable contributions go the the poor.

Then tell him to STFU.


49 posted on 12/01/2004 6:58:14 PM PST by jackbill
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To: OklaRancher
I belong to a Methodist Church in a rural area with a small congretion of 30 or so. This past Sunday the Pastor started his sermon by saying...

You must have flown to Europe since Sunday. With a sign up date of 12/2/04. Congretion=congregation, right?

Welcome to FR.

5.56mm

50 posted on 12/01/2004 6:58:42 PM PST by M Kehoe
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